His post starts out with something objectively untrue (as I've proven). Hence, the reason I pointed out that it was untrue.
"Horizontal progression can give the gaming world challenge" Is not a false statement because the progression system is not the pivotal link in how games provide challenge. So long as the developers implement difficulty through means that fit into that progression system, then it works as it is not detrimental to offering difficulty and there isn't some secondary element that is causing an imbalance such as severe level progression killing the challenge.
Your entire dialogue that vertical progression is the only way to provide challenge, however, is a false statement.
The only thing objectively untrue here at this point is what you're saying.
Enemy 1 has 100 hp and 10 dps Enemy 2 has 200 hp and 20 dps Enemy 3 has 300 hp and 30 dps
The player and all three enemies are the same "level" because this is horizontal progression game. According to you, all three enemies are the same difficulty because there is only one setting. I disagree, I say that enemy 3 is the hardest and enemy 1 the easiest, because of how their relative power levels compare to me.
Do you agree with me - that difficulty is determined by power level - or do you disagree and think an enemy with 3x the health and dps is objectively the same difficulty?
1. "Levels are usually the smallest part of actual player power" Ah, great so you've backed off from the idea that levels aren't power. Fantastic! You do still undersell the impact of levels, which is strange since it's pretty damn rare to be able to successfully fight +10 level opponents in MMORPGs so it's unclear what specific MMORPGs you're playing where you believe levels are only minimal progression. A clear objective example being the drastic to-hit benefits that exist in WOW so that if you attack something +6 or higher you're missing more attacks than you hit and the damage is reduced (and the reverse is true for your opponent).
2. Your description of how multiple factors contribute to player/monster power is accurate. (But again it's offtopic and distracting because it includes all the factors that aren't horizontal vs. vertical.)
3. Which is why it's a little disappointing when you get to, "that fundamental comparison of player power to enemy power is present in both horizontal and vertical progression systems, therefore the variety of difficulty is the same." Both games may have a similar variety of off-topic factors, but when it comes to just the contribution of vertical vs. horizontal progression, I've shown how vertical progression mathematically provides greater challenge variety than horizontal.
So the reason I'm disappointed is I've isolated the one factor we're talking about and shown mathematically why vertical provides more challenge control for players, and yet people are still disagreeing.
4. My point is true if there's even one additional challenge option available to players as a result of vertical progression. So it's irrelevant to me if you want to (using WOW's balance as an example) call mobs of +6 levels or higher "gated" because they're impossible to kill. So what? Who cares? My argument doesn't hinge on that. My argument only points out that +1 through +5 provide players additional challenge options that a horizontal game doesn't.
5. "Just because the player's power is fixed, doesn't mean the enemy's power level is!" is more off-topic nonsense. We're specifically talking about horizontal vs. vertical progression. We care about the progression system, not about unrelated things like creating normal vs. elite mobs.
Did you really not understand the analogy? Speed was game challenge. We wanted to know if having an engine (vertical progression) makes you go faster than not (horizontal). Other people were confused by the fact that the engine on its own went 20mph and they could push their non-engine scooter 20mph, but they kinda neglected the fact that the engine scooter can also be pushed by leg power to go 25mph.
Also note that I'm not claiming that the leg-powered scooter goes 0mph (as you falsely assumed). I'm simply discussing the motor specifically, so naturally I ignore the fact that leg power increases speed (difficulty) in both situations.
If it helps, try this: 1. Imagine every single way you think games add challenge as a horizontal progression game. 2. Now add vertical progression so that you have all those challenges PLUS there are mobs +1 level above you. 3. Is it harder to beat that +1 content than the +0 content? (Hint: Yes. Obviously. Clearly.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"Horizontal progression can give the gaming world challenge" Is not a false statement because the progression system is not the pivotal link in how games provide challenge. So long as the developers implement difficulty through means that fit into that progression system, then it works as it is not detrimental to offering difficulty and there isn't some secondary element that is causing an imbalance such as severe level progression killing the challenge.
Your entire dialogue that vertical progression is the only way to provide challenge, however, is a false statement.
The only thing objectively untrue here at this point is what you're saying.
Whether progression is a "pivotal link" is irrelevant.
Horizontal progression provides NO challenge, and vertical progression provides SOME challenge. You can't dispute this fact. The only thing you can hope to do is distract with irrelevant points (like whether progression is the "pivotal link" or the various other ways challenge is implemented in games). None of those things addresses my central claim that horizontal progression provides no challenge, and vertical progression provides some challenge.
I've never said vertical progression is the only way to provide challenge. That's straw man nonsense you invented. Reply to what I'm actually saying (or don't, given that my position is so mathematically unassailable that to try to disagree with me would be a waste of your time).
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
His argument is that more impossible = more challenge. He's going down with that ship.
Straw man nonsense. A level 21 mob isn't impossible for a level 20 player.
I explained that to you in several pointed questions. Being too dense to get the point doesn't mean there wasn't a point, it only means you were too dense to get the point.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Horizontal progression provides NO challenge, and vertical progression provides SOME challenge.
Yes we can dispute that because most games are horizontal progression for the character. This statement just proves you have no idea what you're talking about. Action adventure the no progression cousin of RPGs manage to have challenge.
His argument is that more impossible = more challenge. He's going down with that ship.
Straw man nonsense. A level 21 mob isn't impossible for a level 20 player.
I explained that to you in several pointed questions. Being too dense to get the point doesn't mean there wasn't a point, it only means you were too dense to get the point.
Yes but you have have a level 21 to level 20 level challenge in horizontal so what's the point? Horizontal progression for you character doesn't mean horizontal challenge or horizontal difficulty.
Enemy 1 has 100 hp and 10 dps Enemy 2 has 200 hp and 20 dps Enemy 3 has 300 hp and 30 dps
You dismiss this yet you keep bring up the same thing comparing level 21 mob to a 21 player. Its the same thing. Horizontal progression does the same thing. Play any action adventure and you will see in games with no progression you still have challenge. You're clueless or just doubling down on the idiocy.
Yes we can dispute that because most games are horizontal progression for the character. This statement just proves you have no idea what you're talking about. Action adventure the no progression cousin of RPGs manage to have challenge.
What you falsely think I'm saying: Engines are the only reason scooters move.
What I've explained many times: Engines move scooters faster.
In other words lacking an engine provides NO speed increase, but having an engine provides SOME speed increase.
Lacking vertical progression provides NO challenge increase, but having vertical progression provides SOME challenge increase.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yes we can dispute that because most games are horizontal progression for the character. This statement just proves you have no idea what you're talking about. Action adventure the no progression cousin of RPGs manage to have challenge.
What you falsely think I'm saying: Engines are the only reason scooters move.
What I've explained many times: Engines move scooters faster.
In other words lacking an engine provides NO speed increase, but having an engine provides SOME speed increase.
Lacking vertical progression provides NO challenge increase, but having vertical progression provides SOME challenge increase.
Horizontal progression can have challenge easy to impossible. Vertical progression can have challenge easy to impossible. Its that's simple. Almost every game especially early on had no character progression yet had ranges of difficulty.
Talking about scooters and engines is irrelevant because they is analogy flawed.
Yes but you have have a level 21 to level 20 level challenge in horizontal so what's the point? Horizontal progression for you character doesn't mean horizontal challenge or horizontal difficulty.
Enemy 1 has 100 hp and 10 dps Enemy 2 has 200 hp and 20 dps Enemy 3 has 300 hp and 30 dps
You dismiss this yet you keep bring up the same thing comparing level 21 mob to a 21 player. Its the same thing. Horizontal progression does the same thing. Play any action adventure and you will see in games with no progression you still have challenge. You're clueless or just doubling down on the idiocy.
Look, take that imaginary game you've created. The challenge you're describing didn't come from being a horizontal progression game. It came because you implemented harder mobs. That's a separate factor.
Now add vertical progression. So at level 20 mobs have 100/200/300 hp, and now there are level 21 mobs with 110/220/330 hp, and level 22 mobs have 120/240/360 hp. We've added challenge to the game because vertical progression adds challenges (while horizontal progression doesn't).
Again and again I point out that engine-based scooters move faster and you keep pretending my argument is that non-engine scooters can't move at all, and you act like you've shown me something useful when you push yourself around on it with your leg. Meanwhile, the fact still stands that the engine adds speed -- just as the fact still stands that vertical progression adds challenge while horizontal progression does not.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Your facts are not facts in anything other than your irrelevant analogy. Everything else is just made up numbers to support a biased view point.
If hp in vertical progression is valid why are other stats or abilities not valid in horizontal progression?
If they are valid than it can provide challenge. If the stat is not valid in horizontal progression because that is something other horizontal progression than that same rule applies to vertical as well making hp not valid.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Your facts are not facts in anything other than your irrelevant analogy. Everything else is just made up numbers to support a biased view point.
If hp in vertical progression is valid why are other stats or abilities not valid in horizontal progression?
If they are valid than it can provide challenge. If the stat is not valid in horizontal progression because that is something other horizontal progression than that same rule applies to vertical as well making hp not valid.
Because the source of the HP increase in vertical progression IS vertical progression.
Is there an increase in HP because there are normal mobs and elites? Yes. That's a separate additional increase.
That separate increase is the only source of HP increase in horizontal progression.
Horizontal progression itself provides no HP increase.
That's the difference.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Now add vertical progression. So at level 20 mobs have 100/200/300 hp, and now there are level 21 mobs with 110/220/330 hp, and level 22 mobs have 120/240/360 hp. We've added challenge to the game because vertical progression adds challenges (while horizontal progression doesn't).
Challenge is determined by the level of skill/knowledge/strategy required to complete a task that is not impossible.
The definition of challenging is: "Testing one's abilities; demanding"
I'm a very large guy in real life. 6'7" with a sturdy frame. Suppose you gave me a 150lb. barbell to bench press. Is that challenging? No, not at all. It's so far beneath my abilities it presents no challenge.
Suppose you give that same barbell to a small framed 12 year old girl. Is that challenging? Probably. This could really push her to the edge of what she is capable of and test her abilities.
Suppose you give us an aircraft carrier to bench press. Is the challenging? No, it's impossible. Because there is no conceivable way we could ever accomplish this task it fails to test our abilities.
Do you get it now? Challenge isn't adding more numbers. It's creating circumstances that push you to your limits and test your abilities. The closer to your limit you are pushed, the more challenging the content is.
So if your character progresses up in strength the goal line of what is considered challenging must move up with it.
The health of the mob is IRRELEVANT. What is relevant is how far you are pushed torwards the edge of your personal limits in defeating that mob.
Making mobs stronger as the spawn into the world is considered vertical progression by pretty much nobody ever other than yourself. Mobs start at their ending strength and therefore do not progress unless you are actually talking about leveling monsters which is a whole different subject
Thus the term "Vertical progression" or "Horizontal progression" can generally be assumed to apply exclusively to players.
(I'd also like to point out as a side point that the mob could be made more challenging by giving it allies, improving it's AI or giving it abilities that are more difficult to anticipate/counter, or really any other number of ways beyond more strength and more health.)
Which brings us back to the point we have made OVER and OVER and OVER but you have yet to even attempt to address:
While it is true in theory that a vertical progression game can have the same difficulty as a horizontal progression game it never really comes down to it in practice.
A great pair of examples are Halo and Diablo III. Each games has various difficulty modes you can play through the game on. In Halo you can start at the difficulty mode best suited for your player skill and if you go back through on a harder difficulty the game is legitimately harder. There are clear difference in the skill required for an easy, normal, heroic, and legendary playthrough.
In Diablo III you start at level 1 and can play back through on additional difficulty modes that are grouped by level. The game gets a bit harder with each playthrough but I never really felt pushed to the edge of my skills as a player. I eventually stopped doing additional playthroughs not because it was too hard to press on but because I was bored.
Could Diablo III have made itself as hard as Halo? Absolutely but that wasn't the game's focus. The focus was on scaling content to level. In order to have actually made the game as customizable to my PLAYER SKILL level as Halo, they would have had to create separate difficulty modes for each playthrough of each level range. Even a company as large and well funded as Blizzard doesn't have the time for that, and Diablo III isn't even an MMO. How much harder would it be to implement it so that you can face rewarding challenges at each level and each gearscore, pressing your player skill to whatever personal limits you have in a massively multiplayer setting? No wonder we don't have challenging MMOs anymore. Level based MMOs make it far more difficult to cater to more than one skillset of players. And the big companies have learned the skill level that will net them the most revenue is hyper-casuals.
Yes but you have have a level 21 to level 20 level challenge in horizontal so what's the point? Horizontal progression for you character doesn't mean horizontal challenge or horizontal difficulty.
Enemy 1 has 100 hp and 10 dps Enemy 2 has 200 hp and 20 dps Enemy 3 has 300 hp and 30 dps
You dismiss this yet you keep bring up the same thing comparing level 21 mob to a 21 player. Its the same thing. Horizontal progression does the same thing. Play any action adventure and you will see in games with no progression you still have challenge. You're clueless or just doubling down on the idiocy.
Look, take that imaginary game you've created. The challenge you're describing didn't come from being a horizontal progression game. It came because you implemented harder mobs. That's a separate factor.
Now add vertical progression. So at level 20 mobs have 100/200/300 hp, and now there are level 21 mobs with 110/220/330 hp, and level 22 mobs have 120/240/360 hp. We've added challenge to the game because vertical progression adds challenges (while horizontal progression doesn't).
Again and again I point out that engine-based scooters move faster and you keep pretending my argument is that non-engine scooters can't move at all, and you act like you've shown me something useful when you push yourself around on it with your leg. Meanwhile, the fact still stands that the engine adds speed -- just as the fact still stands that vertical progression adds challenge while horizontal progression does not.
That's not imaginary. That's how most games work. You fight NPCS with low HP and the boss has HP and hard hitting talents.
Notice regular NPCs take 1 hit. Guys with weapons take a few and the bosses take multiple hits. The guy never leveled up and never will. This is will continue with harder bosses. You're premise is asinine.
Fixating on the impossible part of challenge when my argument has never relied upon it is strange. Why are you doing that?
The second you add vertical progression (just having level 1 and level 2) you've introduced additional challenge. It's not an impossible challenge, it's an additional challenge. An additional challenge whose source was the vertical progression.
That's challenge whose source was vertical progression. Can you name a challenge whose source was horizontal progression? No? Then my point is made.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That's not imaginary. That's how most games work. You fight NPCS with low HP and the boss has HP and hard hitting talents.
Notice regular NPCs take 1 hit. Guys with weapons take a few and the bosses take multiple hits. The guy never leveled up and never will. This is will continue with harder bosses. You're premise is asinine.
Horizontal progression isn't the source of those things. Vertical progression isthe sourceof its own unique set of HP increases.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That's not imaginary. That's how most games work. You fight NPCS with low HP and the boss has HP and hard hitting talents.
Notice regular NPCs take 1 hit. Guys with weapons take a few and the bosses take multiple hits. The guy never leveled up and never will. This is will continue with harder bosses. You're premise is asinine.
Horizontal progression isn't the source of those things. Vertical progression isthe sourceof its own unique set of HP increases.
Lol but that's how horizontal progression can work. Harder NPCs have more HP, harder hitting attacks, better defenses or whatever method to be harder. That's how most games delivery challenge with no vertical progression. You're just arguing to argue. You have no point anymore lol.
Double Dragon on NES had horizontal progression. The more you killed the more moves you were given.
HP increases mean nothing towards challenge. Its all about relative percentages.
I think that people want a game that allows them to grow from being mediocre to being pro. GW2 was a game that was seemingly for the casuals. When they realized that the hardcore/pro were the people who would actually keep the hype going, they started creating harder content. That's how it got Raids, harder open world bosses, Fractals etc.
A game that can accurately transitions its players from being casuals to being hardcore (if those people desire), is the game that succeeds.
Lol but that's how horizontal progression can work. Harder NPCs have more HP, harder hitting attacks, better defenses or whatever method to be harder. That's how most games delivery challenge with no vertical progression. You're just arguing to argue. You have no point anymore lol.
Double Dragon on NES had horizontal progression. The more you killed the more moves you were given.
HP increases mean nothing towards challenge. Its all about relative percentages.
Back when you presented horizontal progression as a solution to game challenge, you were implying horizontal progression was a source of challenge. It sounds like you've backed off on that idea and now you agree with my original response to you that while you're correct that all those other sources of challenge are sources of challenge, horizontal progression is not. Excellent! You can be taught!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Hp is the source of vertical progression. Other stats or abilities is the source of horizontal progression.
If one is valid then they both are.
Incorrect.
When you unlock a hat in TF2, enemies don't have more HP. They're not harder in any way. When you unlock a weapon in TF2, enemies don't have more HP. They're not harder in any way.
Horizontal progression is about unlocking additional, balanced options (not options which make you more powerful).
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Lol but that's how horizontal progression can work. Harder NPCs have more HP, harder hitting attacks, better defenses or whatever method to be harder. That's how most games delivery challenge with no vertical progression. You're just arguing to argue. You have no point anymore lol.
Double Dragon on NES had horizontal progression. The more you killed the more moves you were given.
HP increases mean nothing towards challenge. Its all about relative percentages.
Back when you presented horizontal progression as a solution to game challenge, you were implying horizontal progression was a source of challenge. It sounds like you've backed off on that idea and now you agree with my original response to you that while you're correct that all those other sources of challenge are sources of challenge, horizontal progression is not. Excellent! You can be taught!
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it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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Lol but that's how horizontal progression can work. Harder NPCs have more HP, harder hitting attacks, better defenses or whatever method to be harder. That's how most games delivery challenge with no vertical progression. You're just arguing to argue. You have no point anymore lol.
Double Dragon on NES had horizontal progression. The more you killed the more moves you were given.
HP increases mean nothing towards challenge. Its all about relative percentages.
Back when you presented horizontal progression as a solution to game challenge, you were implying horizontal progression was a source of challenge. It sounds like you've backed off on that idea and now you agree with my original response to you that while you're correct that all those other sources of challenge are sources of challenge, horizontal progression is not. Excellent! You can be taught!
I declare Axehilt the winner.
End this now.
But you do know the same argument he just made applies to Vertical progression, because all the stat progression in vertical progression is something that is very modular and can swing from negligible to essentially flat into extreme, and all of that can still be rendered neutral by other challenge systems implemented.
A prior example of this that Axe provided himself was with the new WoW content and how WoW is still using a vertical system, but through level scaling the mobs to the players they keep the high end content at a flat challenge level relative to the player.
This means that the "challenge" being provided is not inherent in either situation if one is going to make such a claim, and that it's only by making distinct changes while a) preserving those changes and/or b) making additional distinct variations in the difficulty of content, that the challenge is actually generated.
Meaning if what we take is said above to be the winning statement, then the prior argument that was made by him is still in fact false.
Comments
Your entire dialogue that vertical progression is the only way to provide challenge, however, is a false statement.
The only thing objectively untrue here at this point is what you're saying.
2. Your description of how multiple factors contribute to player/monster power is accurate. (But again it's offtopic and distracting because it includes all the factors that aren't horizontal vs. vertical.)
3. Which is why it's a little disappointing when you get to, "that fundamental comparison of player power to enemy power is present in both horizontal and vertical progression systems, therefore the variety of difficulty is the same." Both games may have a similar variety of off-topic factors, but when it comes to just the contribution of vertical vs. horizontal progression, I've shown how vertical progression mathematically provides greater challenge variety than horizontal.
So the reason I'm disappointed is I've isolated the one factor we're talking about and shown mathematically why vertical provides more challenge control for players, and yet people are still disagreeing.
4. My point is true if there's even one additional challenge option available to players as a result of vertical progression. So it's irrelevant to me if you want to (using WOW's balance as an example) call mobs of +6 levels or higher "gated" because they're impossible to kill. So what? Who cares? My argument doesn't hinge on that. My argument only points out that +1 through +5 provide players additional challenge options that a horizontal game doesn't.
5. "Just because the player's power is fixed, doesn't mean the enemy's power level is!" is more off-topic nonsense. We're specifically talking about horizontal vs. vertical progression. We care about the progression system, not about unrelated things like creating normal vs. elite mobs.
Did you really not understand the analogy? Speed was game challenge. We wanted to know if having an engine (vertical progression) makes you go faster than not (horizontal). Other people were confused by the fact that the engine on its own went 20mph and they could push their non-engine scooter 20mph, but they kinda neglected the fact that the engine scooter can also be pushed by leg power to go 25mph.
Also note that I'm not claiming that the leg-powered scooter goes 0mph (as you falsely assumed). I'm simply discussing the motor specifically, so naturally I ignore the fact that leg power increases speed (difficulty) in both situations.
If it helps, try this:
1. Imagine every single way you think games add challenge as a horizontal progression game.
2. Now add vertical progression so that you have all those challenges PLUS there are mobs +1 level above you.
3. Is it harder to beat that +1 content than the +0 content? (Hint: Yes. Obviously. Clearly.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Horizontal progression provides NO challenge, and vertical progression provides SOME challenge. You can't dispute this fact. The only thing you can hope to do is distract with irrelevant points (like whether progression is the "pivotal link" or the various other ways challenge is implemented in games). None of those things addresses my central claim that horizontal progression provides no challenge, and vertical progression provides some challenge.
I've never said vertical progression is the only way to provide challenge. That's straw man nonsense you invented. Reply to what I'm actually saying (or don't, given that my position is so mathematically unassailable that to try to disagree with me would be a waste of your time).
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I explained that to you in several pointed questions. Being too dense to get the point doesn't mean there wasn't a point, it only means you were too dense to get the point.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yes we can dispute that because most games are horizontal progression for the character. This statement just proves you have no idea what you're talking about. Action adventure the no progression cousin of RPGs manage to have challenge.
Enemy 2 has 200 hp and 20 dps
Enemy 3 has 300 hp and 30 dps
You dismiss this yet you keep bring up the same thing comparing level 21 mob to a 21 player. Its the same thing. Horizontal progression does the same thing. Play any action adventure and you will see in games with no progression you still have challenge. You're clueless or just doubling down on the idiocy.
What I've explained many times: Engines move scooters faster.
In other words lacking an engine provides NO speed increase, but having an engine provides SOME speed increase.
Lacking vertical progression provides NO challenge increase, but having vertical progression provides SOME challenge increase.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Talking about scooters and engines is irrelevant because they is analogy flawed.
Now add vertical progression. So at level 20 mobs have 100/200/300 hp, and now there are level 21 mobs with 110/220/330 hp, and level 22 mobs have 120/240/360 hp. We've added challenge to the game because vertical progression adds challenges (while horizontal progression doesn't).
Again and again I point out that engine-based scooters move faster and you keep pretending my argument is that non-engine scooters can't move at all, and you act like you've shown me something useful when you push yourself around on it with your leg. Meanwhile, the fact still stands that the engine adds speed -- just as the fact still stands that vertical progression adds challenge while horizontal progression does not.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If hp in vertical progression is valid why are other stats or abilities not valid in horizontal progression?
If they are valid than it can provide challenge. If the stat is not valid in horizontal progression because that is something other horizontal progression than that same rule applies to vertical as well making hp not valid.
Is there an increase in HP because there are normal mobs and elites? Yes. That's a separate additional increase.
That separate increase is the only source of HP increase in horizontal progression.
Horizontal progression itself provides no HP increase.
That's the difference.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The definition of challenging is: "Testing one's abilities; demanding"
I'm a very large guy in real life. 6'7" with a sturdy frame. Suppose you gave me a 150lb. barbell to bench press. Is that challenging? No, not at all. It's so far beneath my abilities it presents no challenge.
Suppose you give that same barbell to a small framed 12 year old girl. Is that challenging? Probably. This could really push her to the edge of what she is capable of and test her abilities.
Suppose you give us an aircraft carrier to bench press. Is the challenging? No, it's impossible. Because there is no conceivable way we could ever accomplish this task it fails to test our abilities.
Do you get it now? Challenge isn't adding more numbers. It's creating circumstances that push you to your limits and test your abilities. The closer to your limit you are pushed, the more challenging the content is.
So if your character progresses up in strength the goal line of what is considered challenging must move up with it.
The health of the mob is IRRELEVANT. What is relevant is how far you are pushed torwards the edge of your personal limits in defeating that mob.
Making mobs stronger as the spawn into the world is considered vertical progression by pretty much nobody ever other than yourself. Mobs start at their ending strength and therefore do not progress unless you are actually talking about leveling monsters which is a whole different subject
Thus the term "Vertical progression" or "Horizontal progression" can generally be assumed to apply exclusively to players.
(I'd also like to point out as a side point that the mob could be made more challenging by giving it allies, improving it's AI or giving it abilities that are more difficult to anticipate/counter, or really any other number of ways beyond more strength and more health.)
Which brings us back to the point we have made OVER and OVER and OVER but you have yet to even attempt to address:
Notice regular NPCs take 1 hit. Guys with weapons take a few and the bosses take multiple hits. The guy never leveled up and never will. This is will continue with harder bosses. You're premise is asinine.
The second you add vertical progression (just having level 1 and level 2) you've introduced additional challenge. It's not an impossible challenge, it's an additional challenge. An additional challenge whose source was the vertical progression.
That's challenge whose source was vertical progression.
Can you name a challenge whose source was horizontal progression? No? Then my point is made.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Vertical progression is the source of its own unique set of HP increases.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Double Dragon on NES had horizontal progression. The more you killed the more moves you were given.
HP increases mean nothing towards challenge. Its all about relative percentages.
If one is valid then they both are.
A game that can accurately transitions its players from being casuals to being hardcore (if those people desire), is the game that succeeds.
This is not a game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
When you unlock a hat in TF2, enemies don't have more HP. They're not harder in any way.
When you unlock a weapon in TF2, enemies don't have more HP. They're not harder in any way.
Horizontal progression is about unlocking additional, balanced options (not options which make you more powerful).
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I declare Axehilt the winner.
End this now.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
A prior example of this that Axe provided himself was with the new WoW content and how WoW is still using a vertical system, but through level scaling the mobs to the players they keep the high end content at a flat challenge level relative to the player.
This means that the "challenge" being provided is not inherent in either situation if one is going to make such a claim, and that it's only by making distinct changes while a) preserving those changes and/or b) making additional distinct variations in the difficulty of content, that the challenge is actually generated.
Meaning if what we take is said above to be the winning statement, then the prior argument that was made by him is still in fact false.