inventory space is not p2w, but its a terrible idea to sell it on a p2p mmo. I wouldnt touch that game with a 10 feet pole. But why bother paying for that in a game that can shut down any day now... I think they are testing the waters to bring that crap to XIV. I know i wont come back to XIV if they make that move.
FFXIV has been selling inventory space since day 1 of ARR havent they?
The retainer system is the #1 reason i don't play FFXIV. I like to gather and craft but trying to keep my inventory in order while shuffling retainers that take far too long to load ranks with the absolute worst systems in MMORPG history.
The retainer system in game is not selling inventory space at all. You can have up to two retainers that really cost nothing. They take care of Market Board selling (AH) for you, and work more like a bank that also operates as an AH and a gathering venture system. They have never charged a dime for retainers and you can't buy bag space at all.
I wouldn't immediately call expanded inventory pay to win, but if the standard inventory was unreasonably small, then I would since you need some room for things.
Either way, paying a sub and still having to pay, especially an additional sub, for basic functionality like inventory just reeks of cash grabbing.
It's not like they shrunk the inventory you had which has been big enough for people now for years upon years upon years, most people use a secondary character that is cheaper as an inventory mule to begin with so *shrugs*
The problem with throwing around terms like pay to win is that there really is no clear definition of it. Pay to win is what you think it is. I think this was a bad idea for a game that is already pay to play, so it's bad monetization, but I wouldn't call it pay to win. At this point cash shops are kind of a given. The pure monthly sub model is dead and is not coming back. You simply can not charge enough to make a profit and retain a large player base. No one is going to pay 15-20$ every month for multiple games.
I've seen games of all different business models do a fairly decent job and ones that were completely terrible so I don't think there is really one preferred model at this point. You really have to take each game individually and decide how much pay to win is too much for you and decide accordingly.
My major problem is when games start out one way, and then go completely a different way a couple months down the road. The bait and switch is what really pisses me off. Twice now I've been annoyed enough to charge back several hundred dollars that I spent on a game. I don't mind paying for a game, but don't pitch me one game and then do a complete 180 and go back on every statement you made before the game was released.
The sub fee should cover all ingame items period. Be it cosmetic, inventory, gear, or boosters.
So yes it is a p2w element in the game. Is it a game breaker, probably not. But it is SE showing greed and wanting people to pay more money instead of adding to an ingame function or quest like the gobby bag expansions.
But in short this crap has no place in p2p games, but also in all honesty FFXI should not be a p2p game anymore in my opinion. So yea they are just double dipping.
I agree 75% with what you said. I can see companies creating cosmetics to make extra money on the side, as long as they are something you could possibly get in game but most likely wouldn't. Something with like a .01% chance to drop but you could buy it straight out if you really really needed to have that cosmetic. I do not fault companies for that at all. Everything else yes should be included in the sub.
My view is that the definition of 'P2W' changes from a PvP game to a PvE game.
In PvP, winning is clearly measured against other players, while in a PvE game it is measured against ones self, with the character you build through the journey and actions it takes being one of the main reasons to play the game.
So, is buying character progress and achievement buying your 'win' in a PvE game? It could be said so, yes. Pay to achieve, against play to achieve.
I wouldn't ever make a loud noise and 'P2W' in a PvE game usually, I don't care that much past it being an interesting conversation these days, but I do think it's sad that we have reached a point where most feel it's a good thing to pay to skip the game, rather than just play the game.
But then I remember a time when the general community looked down on RMT gold buyers and considered them weak players and cheats.
No, any way you slice it the term p2W was meant as way to describe buying items of power, not conveniences. Inventory space is not an item of power. Trying to include such things under the P2W moniker is extremely distorting the meaning of that moniker. It's like calling jaywalking a driving offense.
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No it is not P2W. Now is it a scum bag move and shady as frack,hell ya. P2W is anything that gives and unfair advantage in content. Like when you one shot every one in pvp, only because you spent 400$ every month for 3 months and not because yer even remotely any good. Or when you are top dps in dungeons that loot is based off of dps, only cause.....you guessed it because you paid upwards of a 1000 dollars in a 6 month timeframe. Hence you paid to win! No skill needed! Anything else people try to put under P2W is just crying to change what they don't like,instead of not playing F2P games! They cry and use words they don't understand to try and change the system instead of using the only real voice they have MONAAAAAA. Well in really real world change only happens when people loose money, or the aggrieved use force to change it and only one option really has any relevance to gaming. Cheers!
It's exploitative as hell even more so if you limit the initial inventory and then item flood the player on purpose.
So pretty much what FFXIV did, right? That's pretty much where SE got the idea from since they see how many people buy retainers. They claim that they can't expand inventory space because of 'server limitations' but they can sell you space.
It's exploitative as hell even more so if you limit the initial inventory and then item flood the player on purpose.
So pretty much what FFXIV did, right? That's pretty much where SE got the idea from since they see how many people buy retainers. They claim that they can't expand inventory space because of 'server limitations' but they can sell you space.
Man if people think FFXI after like 14 years is getting greedy, they havent seen the cash shop of XIV lol. The only thing up until then that FFXI sold outside of the game up until now was server transfers and extra character slots which were the most basic things in the world. XIV comes out and it will sell you just about WoW will sell you (one of the other few P2P games left) which includes exclusive stuff you cant get in game like mounts, dyes, retainers, outfits, hairstyles, minions, emotes, housing items and even "better" marriage crap....on top of the 2 things XI did.
Should XI players hate this...heck yah, if this was back in its prime when me and my friends play we would all be pissed and im sure forums would have exploded...butt the game is so old and barely there anymore. They are also only doing it because they get away with SO much more in XIV, so im expecting more of it to spill over into XI at some point. So really blame XIV/WoW for getting away with selling lots of side crap and people buying it in a P2P game. I think its gross even with it just being ascetic stuff in P2P, but those 2 games made it standard and OK for people.
No unless the primary game mechanic for winning was the number of inventory slots.
Like example - a person with MAX inventry slots did 600% more damage to other players in PvP
Well, the real example would be that allowing more inventory slots gave crafters/traders a greater advantage over other crafters/traders and they could make much more money allowing them to buy the best of everything.
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It's time the "P2W" label was put to rest, it belongs to a different era.
Modern Cash Shops mostly sell advantage, not "win".
Things are much more sophisticated nowadays, and most monetization schemes can easily dodge the outright "P2W" accusations, while still selling massive advantages to anyone with cash to spend.
Gamers have embraced the concept of paying for advantage with RL cash, it's a very popular feature.
No, any way you slice it the term p2W was meant as way to describe buying items of power, not conveniences. Inventory space is not an item of power. Trying to include such things under the P2W moniker is extremely distorting the meaning of that moniker. It's like calling jaywalking a driving offense.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No unless the primary game mechanic for winning was the number of inventory slots.
Like example - a person with MAX inventry slots did 600% more damage to other players in PvP
Well, the real example would be that allowing more inventory slots gave crafters/traders a greater advantage over other crafters/traders and they could make much more money allowing them to buy the best of everything.
Or ability to carry more potions and turn PvP into a war of attrition. May the one with the most recovery items win.
Still, wouldn't call this P2W. A lame excuse and a blunt money grab maybe. Unless they did something seriously wrong with their game design, the amount of data involved in saying how many slots are available and what items are there should be negligible.
No, any way you slice it the term p2W was meant as way to describe buying items of power, not conveniences. Inventory space is not an item of power. Trying to include such things under the P2W moniker is extremely distorting the meaning of that moniker. It's like calling jaywalking a driving offense.
Many people pronounce the word Realtor with 3 syllables.
They are wrong too.
Plus it was just a poll. It would have been better to have a form where each person sent in their definition then see how many of them matched. He didn't even list any antithesis conditions for the criteria of p2w. Just a silly little poll.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
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FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
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the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
The sub fee should cover all ingame items period. Be it cosmetic, inventory, gear, or boosters.
So yes it is a p2w element in the game. Is it a game breaker, probably not. But it is SE showing greed and wanting people to pay more money instead of adding to an ingame function or quest like the gobby bag expansions.
But in short this crap has no place in p2p games, but also in all honesty FFXI should not be a p2p game anymore in my opinion. So yea they are just double dipping.
Agreed, anything, anything at all that makes the game easier to play I toss in the bucket labeled P2W.
Were talking SE here right, the same guys that just put a cash shop in a 60 dollar single player game. It seems that's their new MO. Make them pay, then find a way to get them to pay more.
Comments
I've seen games of all different business models do a fairly decent job and ones that were completely terrible so I don't think there is really one preferred model at this point. You really have to take each game individually and decide how much pay to win is too much for you and decide accordingly.
My major problem is when games start out one way, and then go completely a different way a couple months down the road. The bait and switch is what really pisses me off. Twice now I've been annoyed enough to charge back several hundred dollars that I spent on a game. I don't mind paying for a game, but don't pitch me one game and then do a complete 180 and go back on every statement you made before the game was released.
P2P games served their purpose. Put them at rest now.
In PvP, winning is clearly measured against other players, while in a PvE game it is measured against ones self, with the character you build through the journey and actions it takes being one of the main reasons to play the game.
So, is buying character progress and achievement buying your 'win' in a PvE game? It could be said so, yes. Pay to achieve, against play to achieve.
I wouldn't ever make a loud noise and 'P2W' in a PvE game usually, I don't care that much past it being an interesting conversation these days, but I do think it's sad that we have reached a point where most feel it's a good thing to pay to skip the game, rather than just play the game.
But then I remember a time when the general community looked down on RMT gold buyers and considered them weak players and cheats.
It's exploitative as hell even more so if you limit the initial inventory and then item flood the player on purpose.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/No it is not P2W. Now is it a scum bag move and shady as frack,hell ya. P2W is anything that gives and unfair advantage in content. Like when you one shot every one in pvp, only because you spent 400$ every month for 3 months and not because yer even remotely any good. Or when you are top dps in dungeons that loot is based off of dps, only cause.....you guessed it because you paid upwards of a 1000 dollars in a 6 month timeframe. Hence you paid to win! No skill needed! Anything else people try to put under P2W is just crying to change what they don't like,instead of not playing F2P games! They cry and use words they don't understand to try and change the system instead of using the only real voice they have MONAAAAAA. Well in really real world change only happens when people loose money, or the aggrieved use force to change it and only one option really has any relevance to gaming. Cheers!
Should XI players hate this...heck yah, if this was back in its prime when me and my friends play we would all be pissed and im sure forums would have exploded...butt the game is so old and barely there anymore. They are also only doing it because they get away with SO much more in XIV, so im expecting more of it to spill over into XI at some point. So really blame XIV/WoW for getting away with selling lots of side crap and people buying it in a P2P game. I think its gross even with it just being ascetic stuff in P2P, but those 2 games made it standard and OK for people.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Modern Cash Shops mostly sell advantage, not "win".
Things are much more sophisticated nowadays, and most monetization schemes can easily dodge the outright "P2W" accusations, while still selling massive advantages to anyone with cash to spend.
Gamers have embraced the concept of paying for advantage with RL cash, it's a very popular feature.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Still, wouldn't call this P2W. A lame excuse and a blunt money grab maybe. Unless they did something seriously wrong with their game design, the amount of data involved in saying how many slots are available and what items are there should be negligible.
Plus it was just a poll. It would have been better to have a form where each person sent in their definition then see how many of them matched. He didn't even list any antithesis conditions for the criteria of p2w. Just a silly little poll.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"