I remember when AI was the buzzword for games. You couldn't buy a game in the early 2000's that didn't brag about how progressive it's AI was. FEAR, for instance built it's whole marketing campaign around how the enemies would take cover in a smart way, run away from overwhelming force, dodge grenades... ect.
Now, however, you don't hear shit about it. It's like AI development reached a point where all developers said "Good enough for us" and then quit. I do wish that AI was more of a focus for games, especially when you play games like SWTOR that have the absolute minimum AI possible. The baddies in ShitTOR will beeline right at your face, never take cover, never do anything remotely smart, just 100% predictable. Some shooters still have decent AI in single player, but even the NPC's in Titanfall were just atrocious and didn't contribute to the game at all.
There's going to need to be some significant development in this area of gaming before we see anything very good. This is why I predominantly play PVP games, because PVE games just bore me to death with their 100% predictable actions.
it is called AI ...Artificial Intelligence for a reason,it is and always be artificial.
Nothing more than scripts that need triggers or simple automation.
Act like a real person would?How would that work with a Boss?He would NEVER lose because he is more powerful right and would not fight anyone unless he figured to win.I mean gamer's don't go into a fight thinking "ok we will be losing" they have scoured the net and watched bvideos and written down the exact scripts to watch for and go in accordingly.
I will point at an OBVIOUS scenario.Would a Boss just be standing at the end of some cave waiting there to be attacked?No he would be wandering around and if he had real player like thinking,he would want to be learning skills and magic and healing and crafting and finding food and looking for players to ransack and steal all their goods.
In the game I'm working on as an indie developer, I didn't want to have a static quest line. The order and target would be dynamic. There are still the basic five types of quest, but effort is being made to seem more random.
All mobs spawn into the game world with the task to level and grow in power. First thing I decided, no mob dies they just fight until unconscious. A player has to spend a mob kill token(cash shop or earned in game) in order to kill a mob. When they do that mob is gone from the game. To be replaced by the next up and comer in the mob universe.
I also didn't like the idea of a static boss. So the boss arrives back at the base and enters through one of a possible variety of entrances (1 of 3 possibly even 8). His away guards are replaced by his at home gaurds. Then he goes to (1 of 4 possible daytime locations)the office. He has a meeting for say an hour. Then he has some lunch (1 of 3 locations). Then he plays some sports (1 of 5 activities). This may be pre written but it is random enough that a player raid will not know where the boss is or what he might be doing or who is with him.
I haven't described the system 100% because it is still a WIP. The idea is when one boss and gang is taken out, another boss and gang takes their place. Still I have seen some sameness and repetition, WIP.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
But you are asking the impossible for the foreseeable future.
True A.I. , as you are talking about, able to be mistaken for another person, is years away. If ever.
Would have to be able to make decisions on the fly with changing gameplay, like a person, not be scripted.
Scripted, coded, behavior, what we have now, and what you are describing...worlds apart and as far away in time i expect, at least for gaming.
Let me tell you that when it comes to rts, I have watched this one coders AI dominate. He also had it playing a popular mmorpg and running raids. I'm not going to name him, because I don't want people to use his site for writing bots. People who played with or against the AI didn't have a clue from the level of game play. But his isn't going to participate in voice chat.
Today many games are using AI to test the game world for snag spots. An AI character runs around the world trying to get stuck. So IRL players don't.
All AI has to be dumbed to for release. The first draft of AI is usually frighteningly challenging. The level of AI the we see today is what focus groups will accept.
There was a very advanced Bot that even talked and responded to tells and whispers in context back in EQ1 days. It pathed across several zones, auto hunted, looted and even went to vendors to sell, it took screenshots and emailed them to you when you leveled up etc. ..
Again this was well over 14 years ago... it used chat bot Eliza for conversation and had a full EQ1 related custom dictionary to talk about loot/classes skills spells etc..
I remember someone in the guild having a bot like that, I assume it's the same one. I never tried it myself. Eliza never felt human to me. When I see the stuff being done at Hanson Robotics it all just feels like Eliza again.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
it is called AI ...Artificial Intelligence for a reason,it is and always be artificial.
Nothing more than scripts that need triggers or simple automation.
Act like a real person would?How would that work with a Boss?He would NEVER lose because he is more powerful right and would not fight anyone unless he figured to win.I mean gamer's don't go into a fight thinking "ok we will be losing" they have scoured the net and watched bvideos and written down the exact scripts to watch for and go in accordingly.
I will point at an OBVIOUS scenario.Would a Boss just be standing at the end of some cave waiting there to be attacked?No he would be wandering around and if he had real player like thinking,he would want to be learning skills and magic and healing and crafting and finding food and looking for players to ransack and steal all their goods.
What you said sounds so much more fun than a boss just standing at the end of the dungeon (as you put it). If all a player needs is to go online to see the scripted fight, that is literally nothing new and has been done a million times before. A boss fight that is different on every occasion is exactly why people enjoy PVP.
I'm having a hard time understanding why you want this.
Most people eschew PVP now because player characters routinely beat them, sometimes badly, and interrupt their fun.
A properly coded AI would do the same thing.
It would emulate all the behaviors of players, it would try to kill your healers, beat you with superior gear, numbers or information.
If you create the gaming equivalent of Skynet it's going to annihilate you far more efficiently than most players do now.
Be careful what you ask for.
The problem with this thinking is that is just complacent expectations. When a new mmo launches, we know pretty much know exactly what we are in store for. If you've played one mmo before, you pretty much have played them all. The scripted fights and events are always the same. Look online and find boss fight. Learn boss's dance moves. Watch TV while raiding the 15th time you do the same boss.
If you had A.I. that was not impossible to beat, but actually made people think outside their normal gaming habits. It would make things very interesting and also very exciting.
One thing to remember is that if the A.I. changed drastically. I believe the gameplay would as well. Call it evolution if you want. But this would (imo) bring the change in mmos that people are always clamoring about. A PVE environment that has the same unpredictability as PVP.
I do appreciate your input though. You make good points
I'd rather developers work on tools/mechanics to bring players together rather than to replace them.
What else would bring together players more than a common cause. An enemy that is actually on the same level as players without the worry of people exploiting each side by logging into their opposing faction's character and learning exactly what they are planning.
Let's also remember not everyone participates or cares for PVP. So atm in most mmos it's either solo game in PVE or PVP. The whole point of this thread is for those looking for only a PVE mmo that gives meaningful gameplay against PVE. Instead of the typical standing around mobs or scripted boss fights.
Umm why not just play people? O.o You pve only types are so silly.
How exactly do I play against people in a raid. Are players the boss and trash mobs? If you love PVP, great I'm happy for you. Not everyone cares about PVP though.
I'm struggling to understand the purpose of this change. It seems to be basically replacing pvp with pve. But, we already have pve! Replacing open world pvp with pve bots - thats just standard open world pve zones right? Replacing battlegrounds with pve bots - thats just dungeons and stuff? Slightly different mechanics, sure, but same sort of thing.
Plus, we're playing an MMO right? Don't we want to be playing with and against other real people?
That said, when I used to play arena shooters like quake, unreal tournament, battlefield and battlefront, I much preferred playing with bots than online. They may have been more predictable, but you could alter the difficulty so it was still challenging and the predictability meant you could predictably have fun. I knew there would always be certain spots on the maps where I could find good battles, always know where to go to have the most fun with certain weapons.
I suppose if you had single-player battlegrounds with bots on either side, I would much rather spend my time leveling up by repeating them instead of the usual boring quest grind. But then I'd rather do proper pvp battlegrounds over everything else.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Umm why not just play people? O.o You pve only types are so silly.
How exactly do I play against people in a raid. Are players the boss and trash mobs? If you love PVP, great I'm happy for you. Not everyone cares about PVP though.
So let players take over control of the boss and trash mobs? Not a bad idea except people would exploit it and fight them stupid on purpose to let their friends win and stuff.
But if you could find a way to strongly encourage players to take control and reward them for playing them well, it might work.
You keep eschewing PVP, I'm not sure why. You want better more interesting fights, other players can give this to you, why do you need raid bosses to do the same?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm having a hard time understanding why you want this.
Most people eschew PVP now because player characters routinely beat them, sometimes badly, and interrupt their fun.
A properly coded AI would do the same thing.
It would emulate all the behaviors of players, it would try to kill your healers, beat you with superior gear, numbers or information.
If you create the gaming equivalent of Skynet it's going to annihilate you far more efficiently than most players do now.
Be careful what you ask for.
The problem with this thinking is that is just complacent expectations. When a new mmo launches, we know pretty much know exactly what we are in store for. If you've played one mmo before, you pretty much have played them all. The scripted fights and events are always the same. Look online and find boss fight. Learn boss's dance moves. Watch TV while raiding the 15th time you do the same boss.
If you had A.I. that was not impossible to beat, but actually made people think outside their normal gaming habits. It would make things very interesting and also very exciting.
One thing to remember is that if the A.I. changed drastically. I believe the gameplay would as well. Call it evolution if you want. But this would (imo) bring the change in mmos that people are always clamoring about. A PVE environment that has the same unpredictability as PVP.
I do appreciate your input though. You make good points
So you want smarter AI, but not too smart? That's a bit challenging in my book. You would still be scripting fights, one way or another, even if it's just to put limitations on how well the AI adapts, or responds to player activity.
If it learns and adapts from players, at one point do you put limits on it to stop learning or adapting?
Like I said, if it really adapted, if it perceived a 40 man raid coming in the dungeon, a smart boss would just zerg the entire dungeons forces against it and destroy it utterly, because that's what players would do in that situation.
Enemy force comes into our system in EVE, we will do anything to repel, including trying to zerg them dead or bringing out Capital ships if necessary to drop them.
Good AI would do the same thing. It also would know when not to fight and instead run or hide, just like players do today.
Again, you say today's raids aren't challenging, but the patterns aren't that easy to learn and master in my experience, unless players cheat and look at how others did them. (which is how most do it)
I recall beating Ragnaros in WOW back in the day, no videos, no help from others (people were very protective of their secrets before it became common) and we beat ourselves to death 6 hours a night, 6 days a week until we pulled it off after many weeks of trying. (I was a Paladin rebuffing every 5 minutes...ugh)
Later when fighting bosses in other areas my guild then would always make us memorize the fight from online videos and what not, and we were marched through it by drill instructor like Raid leaders, so sure, they became very mechanical.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't really think there still is tech derps to deal with. The technology required is not any joke. Then we put MMO over that, and the whole expectation is not of great hopes.
On a SP game however, having one AI literally learn with and from you is more possible, I can see it happening with the game recording your playstyle and very detailed statistics of things like weapons you use, accuracy, dodging, etc.. etc.. and make the AI then change its strategy to counter what it sees from you.
I surely would. PvP do have the advantage that skill and tactics differ a lot from player to player though, sometimes people do something so unexpected in PvP that it succeeds even if it should be a bad move, an AI would not get that variation.
On he plus side doesn't an AI grief you either, it just kills you.
An AI that works close to a player would be cool, but just for intelligent creatures, animals or stupid monsters should still have a moronic AI.
So far I've seen some very good points and I appreciate you all joining the discussion with your insightful perspectives. Keep the discussion going ladies and gents :-) .
If you had A.I. that was not impossible to beat, but actually made people think outside their normal gaming habits. It would make things very interesting and also very exciting.
That's what I get from PvP. I know I will get out thought by other players, I'm testing my skills at the highest level. I will learn new ways of playing my class when playing other humans.
A PVE environment that has the same unpredictability as PVP.
I just don't see the point of that really. Unless you have a difficulty slider the A.I will always be designed for the least skilled.
I know that's what it has always been like with regard to PvE leveling but that's what I like. I like to kick back and chill and not think as intensely as I do when I PvP and PvE fits the bill nicely.
I want a PvE only MMO anyway, so the AI is irrelevant to my preferences.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
PvE is more about creating interesting obstacles for players to overcome and less to do with how good the AI is.
Given that all enemies will now target the weakest member you have to increase player survivability, you can't really make fights where enemies outnumber the players because they will immediately swarm 1 individual to take the player down. You sure as hell can't create a powerful dragon because they would blast the living hell out of weakest characters first.
You just can't create encounters in the same fashion if you run with sentient AI.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
I want a PvE only MMO anyway, so the AI is irrelevant to my preferences.
How do you have PvE only without relevant AI? Your statement seems at odds with itself.
I like existing PvE gameplay, which by definition doesn't have this new AI. There's not anything complicated or contradictory about that, lol.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
I want a PvE only MMO anyway, so the AI is irrelevant to my preferences.
How do you have PvE only without relevant AI? Your statement seems at odds with itself.
I like existing PvE gameplay, which by definition doesn't have this new AI. There's not anything complicated or contradictory about that, lol.
That's honestly ok. With as large of a market as we currently have. I imagine if something like my idea launched. There would still be room for mmos with current pve A.I. Would be interesting to see one with a different idea though.
PvE is more about creating interesting obstacles for players to overcome and less to do with how good the AI is.
Given that all enemies will now target the weakest member you have to increase player survivability, you can't really make fights where enemies outnumber the players because they will immediately swarm 1 individual to take the player down. You sure as hell can't create a powerful dragon because they would blast the living hell out of weakest characters first.
You just can't create encounters in the same fashion if you run with sentient AI.
Good points. I think we should think a bit outside of the box though. With new A.I. we could also possibly have completely new elements to how we play our avatar. Something that could balance out the more intelligent A.I. Just something to take into consideration.
lol, of course if you could create an AI that could do those things, you would then have the unenviable task of trying to persuade the AI to not only play MMO's, but to play your MMO and not somebody elses
Comments
Now, however, you don't hear shit about it. It's like AI development reached a point where all developers said "Good enough for us" and then quit. I do wish that AI was more of a focus for games, especially when you play games like SWTOR that have the absolute minimum AI possible. The baddies in ShitTOR will beeline right at your face, never take cover, never do anything remotely smart, just 100% predictable. Some shooters still have decent AI in single player, but even the NPC's in Titanfall were just atrocious and didn't contribute to the game at all.
There's going to need to be some significant development in this area of gaming before we see anything very good. This is why I predominantly play PVP games, because PVE games just bore me to death with their 100% predictable actions.
All mobs spawn into the game world with the task to level and grow in power. First thing I decided, no mob dies they just fight until unconscious. A player has to spend a mob kill token(cash shop or earned in game) in order to kill a mob. When they do that mob is gone from the game. To be replaced by the next up and comer in the mob universe.
I also didn't like the idea of a static boss. So the boss arrives back at the base and enters through one of a possible variety of entrances (1 of 3 possibly even 8). His away guards are replaced by his at home gaurds. Then he goes to (1 of 4 possible daytime locations)the office. He has a meeting for say an hour. Then he has some lunch (1 of 3 locations). Then he plays some sports (1 of 5 activities). This may be pre written but it is random enough that a player raid will not know where the boss is or what he might be doing or who is with him.
I haven't described the system 100% because it is still a WIP. The idea is when one boss and gang is taken out, another boss and gang takes their place. Still I have seen some sameness and repetition, WIP.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
If you had A.I. that was not impossible to beat, but actually made people think outside their normal gaming habits. It would make things very interesting and also very exciting.
One thing to remember is that if the A.I. changed drastically. I believe the gameplay would as well. Call it evolution if you want. But this would (imo) bring the change in mmos that people are always clamoring about. A PVE environment that has the same unpredictability as PVP.
I do appreciate your input though. You make good points
Let's also remember not everyone participates or cares for PVP. So atm in most mmos it's either solo game in PVE or PVP. The whole point of this thread is for those looking for only a PVE mmo that gives meaningful gameplay against PVE. Instead of the typical standing around mobs or scripted boss fights.
Plus, we're playing an MMO right? Don't we want to be playing with and against other real people?
That said, when I used to play arena shooters like quake, unreal tournament, battlefield and battlefront, I much preferred playing with bots than online. They may have been more predictable, but you could alter the difficulty so it was still challenging and the predictability meant you could predictably have fun. I knew there would always be certain spots on the maps where I could find good battles, always know where to go to have the most fun with certain weapons.
I suppose if you had single-player battlegrounds with bots on either side, I would much rather spend my time leveling up by repeating them instead of the usual boring quest grind. But then I'd rather do proper pvp battlegrounds over everything else.
But if you could find a way to strongly encourage players to take control and reward them for playing them well, it might work.
You keep eschewing PVP, I'm not sure why. You want better more interesting fights, other players can give this to you, why do you need raid bosses to do the same?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What they're looking for is the increased illusion of being badass and skilled, but still having the guaranteed wins and safety.
Go watch Westworld. That's the MMORPG people who keep talking about AI want.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If it learns and adapts from players, at one point do you put limits on it to stop learning or adapting?
Like I said, if it really adapted, if it perceived a 40 man raid coming in the dungeon, a smart boss would just zerg the entire dungeons forces against it and destroy it utterly, because that's what players would do in that situation.
Enemy force comes into our system in EVE, we will do anything to repel, including trying to zerg them dead or bringing out Capital ships if necessary to drop them.
Good AI would do the same thing. It also would know when not to fight and instead run or hide, just like players do today.
Again, you say today's raids aren't challenging, but the patterns aren't that easy to learn and master in my experience, unless players cheat and look at how others did them. (which is how most do it)
I recall beating Ragnaros in WOW back in the day, no videos, no help from others (people were very protective of their secrets before it became common) and we beat ourselves to death 6 hours a night, 6 days a week until we pulled it off after many weeks of trying. (I was a Paladin rebuffing every 5 minutes...ugh)
Later when fighting bosses in other areas my guild then would always make us memorize the fight from online videos and what not, and we were marched through it by drill instructor like Raid leaders, so sure, they became very mechanical.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Then we put MMO over that, and the whole expectation is not of great hopes.
On a SP game however, having one AI literally learn with and from you is more possible, I can see it happening with the game recording your playstyle and very detailed statistics of things like weapons you use, accuracy, dodging, etc.. etc.. and make the AI then change its strategy to counter what it sees from you.
On he plus side doesn't an AI grief you either, it just kills you.
An AI that works close to a player would be cool, but just for intelligent creatures, animals or stupid monsters should still have a moronic AI.
I just don't see the point of that really. Unless you have a difficulty slider the A.I will always be designed for the least skilled.
I know that's what it has always been like with regard to PvE leveling but that's what I like. I like to kick back and chill and not think as intensely as I do when I PvP and PvE fits the bill nicely.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Given that all enemies will now target the weakest member you have to increase player survivability, you can't really make fights where enemies outnumber the players because they will immediately swarm 1 individual to take the player down. You sure as hell can't create a powerful dragon because they would blast the living hell out of weakest characters first.
You just can't create encounters in the same fashion if you run with sentient AI.