I think the RPG I seen with most advanced npcs were Morrowind, they even found love, got married and got kids by themselves.
The thing about MMOs is that most of them are basically about combat. Go down into a dungeon and kill anything you see, murder other players in an instance or solve open world problems (usually by smashing things). When the gameplay is like that there really is little points with intelligent npcs.
Now, if you made a intrigue game where players interacted with conspiring nobles, corrupt officials, thieves, blackmailers and such then you would need a way better npc AI to handle plots, twists and sharing of information but in a murder simulation not so much.
It is kinda strange that all MMOs are like that, a lot of MMOers are really smart people so there should be a market for at least some games with less hack'n slash.
Check out Guild Wars 2, only MMO I know that the NPCs actual moves and talk, making jokes, kids playing, guard stops merchants ect, hell even a dog I saw has almost 1 minute of animation before the loops starts over and that is damn impressive for just a none interesting npc in a game.
I think the RPG I seen with most advanced npcs were Morrowind, they even found love, got married and got kids by themselves.
The thing about MMOs is that most of them are basically about combat. Go down into a dungeon and kill anything you see, murder other players in an instance or solve open world problems (usually by smashing things). When the gameplay is like that there really is little points with intelligent npcs.
Now, if you made a intrigue game where players interacted with conspiring nobles, corrupt officials, thieves, blackmailers and such then you would need a way better npc AI to handle plots, twists and sharing of information but in a murder simulation not so much.
It is kinda strange that all MMOs are like that, a lot of MMOers are really smart people so there should be a market for at least some games with less hack'n slash.
I think if MMORPGs had progressed down the path they originally started on, becoming better and better virtual worlds we would have seen more progress on npc AI and activity.
Instead they followed the preferences of the masses and became multiplayer "games" with a very heavy focus on combat, and a decline on spending resouces on activities such as housing, crafting, or more realistic worlds.
In their defense, I think MMORPG developers expected interaction with other players was going to make spending lots of resources on npcs not necessary
No AI will ever outsmart other players, but most gamers don't really want to fight them.
Why? Biggest reason is because they're likely to lose. If an API came along and mimicked other players people would hate it and stay away in droves IMO.
Roaming mobs are mentioned, I recall dieing to them on multiple occasions in DAOC, and though few and far between most people did not welcome their interruption.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
ESO and GW2 does a good job. All those little stories and realizing if you hadn't stopped to talk to that NPC sitting under that tree you would have missed a nice quest chain. Also not many people are going to follow an NPC around for hours just to see what they actually do all day. Most of those details would be wasted, imo.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I imagine they could do something akin to Stardew Valley with NPCs in an MMO.
A number of us would find it mildly impressive to see this even in just the main city, allowing it to be a bit more alive and vibrant than most recent games deliver.
Some would merely find it annoying as it is harder to find the NPCs they want and they could be asleep (shops open 8am to 7pm instead of 24/7)
Many players are so impatient, and the journey is so short though with so much is instanced that they don't bother.
I think the RPG I seen with most advanced npcs were Morrowind, they even found love, got married and got kids by themselves.
The thing about MMOs is that most of them are basically about combat. Go down into a dungeon and kill anything you see, murder other players in an instance or solve open world problems (usually by smashing things). When the gameplay is like that there really is little points with intelligent npcs.
Now, if you made a intrigue game where players interacted with conspiring nobles, corrupt officials, thieves, blackmailers and such then you would need a way better npc AI to handle plots, twists and sharing of information but in a murder simulation not so much.
It is kinda strange that all MMOs are like that, a lot of MMOers are really smart people so there should be a market for at least some games with less hack'n slash.
I think if MMORPGs had progressed down the path they originally started on, becoming better and better virtual worlds we would have seen more progress on npc AI and activity.
Instead they followed the preferences of the masses and became multiplayer "games" with a very heavy focus on combat, and a decline on spending resouces on activities such as housing, crafting, or more realistic worlds.
In their defense, I think MMORPG developers expected interaction with other players was going to make spending lots of resources on npcs not necessary
No AI will ever outsmart other players, but most gamers don't really want to fight them.
Why? Biggest reason is because they're likely to lose. If an API came along and mimicked other players people would hate it and stay away in droves IMO.
Roaming mobs are mentioned, I recall dieing to them on multiple occasions in DAOC, and though few and far between most people did not welcome their interruption.
I liken what has happened to turning them into pinball machines or a poorly done arcade game from the 70s/80s. It would have been nice to have world development over what we currently have.
Some people really just want to get in and out in their supposed 15 minutes of play. They don't want surprises or consequences. Not sure they even want to play attention.
Having mmoRPG as more of a world with better NPCs could open up game play. For years I have imagined a situation where you spy upon the high cleric at a local church by following him when he leaves. He wanders around town, perhaps interacting with others or trying to make sure he isn't followed, etc. Eventually, he joins others in a private location for a secret meeting with "some kind of bad guys". The stealthy player will get information might be able to follow one of the other NPCs to where they are from. There is an adventure in that and something that feels different from reading a quest.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
It's actually fairly simple.
Why waste resources on NPC AI when any MMO is based around player’s
interaction. Even on rails theme parks still revolve around you enjoying the
game with other players. This is why a large portion of players don't read
quests. The story/content is irrelevant to many people.
When playing a single player game it
revolves are you and NPCs. So the need for investment is there.
I can only answer from the perspective as a developer.
NPC's exist for a reason in most RPG worlds.
Even though fully achievable technically (in my opinion), a suite of new problems needs to be solved. A player could now potentially not find the NPC because s/he's sleeping or peeing, or whatever. And so they're static. They're mostly available to players as tools for progress or information (by current designs, IMO). On the contrary, developers and designers could double/tripple-down on turn-in points to avoid that, but then we're adding overhead and unnecessary complexity for each thing designers want to achieve. Does it makes sense to turn in a quest for NPC X when I got it from NPC Y? Does multiple NPC mean an order of magnitude extra story to be written, or worse, voice acting?
As for the life in open world, this is a valid point to a degree. The current argument against advanced "life sim" is cost. The more advanced AI, the more operations, which equates to cost. Even worse, unnecessary cost as as most will not seen by players.
For example had Blizzard not shut down shards or nodes (whatever term they use internally) which are currently not in use (or technically they're in sleep mode), it would be a massive operation cost which would directly affect all players - e.g. higher subscription cost. Even the current stupid path movement, at say an update rate of once per second, times all the mobs in wow open world, times all the servers they uphold. That's massive. You could argue that one could keep the sleep mode - but then, as soon as no players are in that area - there's no life anyway - it's just as you left it. That's almost worse.
However, I think it's considered a waste only because it doesn't add to the gameplay experience. For example, if a "living world" had been a vital part of gameplay, it would have been justified. Even EVE online are just sparsely trying this out right now with the new expansions and the invasions.
Had a core principle of gameplay been to find that trade caravan between two towns which randomly spawns and moves across dynamic paths - it's worth putting effort and resources into it.
Active NPCs do add a lot to the feeling of a living world. Playing BDO after reading the OP you notice all of the NPCs that are going around doing jobs, children pickpocketing, workers carrying goods to market, etc. Even though most are static, just the few who are moving completely change the feel of the game. Having all of the NPCs act that way would be great for immersion.
UO had NPCs that at least moved around their area and *performs work related action* from time to time. Most NPCs in games these days could be replaced with a sign post.
I think a lot of it is that modern players aren't willing to deal with even a little bit of inconvenience. Having to wait 30 minutes for the sun to come up and workers to resume their day, or having to look for an NPC because they leave their home to go shopping is more than your average member of the ADD generation could tolerate.
The other part is just resources. Other than the above mentioned BDO and to a much lesser extent GW2 most MMOs have a bare minimum of NPCs that aren't a vendor, guard or quest related. They don't want to spend the money on art, AI, and system resources to produce a more authentic environment.
I can only answer from the perspective as a developer.
NPC's exist for a reason in most RPG worlds.
Even though fully achievable technically (in my opinion), a suite of new problems needs to be solved. A player could now potentially not find the NPC because s/he's sleeping or peeing, or whatever. And so they're static. They're mostly available to players as tools for progress or information (by current designs, IMO). On the contrary, developers and designers could double/tripple-down on turn-in points to avoid that, but then we're adding overhead and unnecessary complexity for each thing designers want to achieve. Does it makes sense to turn in a quest for NPC X when I got it from NPC Y? Does multiple NPC mean an order of magnitude extra story to be written, or worse, voice acting?
As for the life in open world, this is a valid point to a degree. The current argument against advanced "life sim" is cost. The more advanced AI, the more operations, which equates to cost. Even worse, unnecessary cost as as most will not seen by players.
For example had Blizzard not shut down shards or nodes (whatever term they use internally) which are currently not in use (or technically they're in sleep mode), it would be a massive operation cost which would directly affect all players - e.g. higher subscription cost. Even the current stupid path movement, at say an update rate of once per second, times all the mobs in wow open world, times all the servers they uphold. That's massive. You could argue that one could keep the sleep mode - but then, as soon as no players are in that area - there's no life anyway - it's just as you left it. That's almost worse.
However, I think it's considered a waste only because it doesn't add to the gameplay experience. For example, if a "living world" had been a vital part of gameplay, it would have been justified. Even EVE online are just sparsely trying this out right now with the new expansions and the invasions.
Had a core principle of gameplay been to find that trade caravan between two towns which randomly spawns and moves across dynamic paths - it's worth putting effort and resources into it.
My two cents.
Yes, that is a reason why they don't do it. But there is some portion, no matter how small, that would appreciate it. But this is all the end result of what gaming has become. ROI.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I actually wrote a blog post on AI not too long ago on MMORPG.com (shameless plug, yay!), although it doesn't cover NPC AI as much as it does with Monster NPC AI.
AI in video games is tied heavily to other aspects of a game, such as combat and overall difficulty. Creating a more complex AI means that other aspects of the game will need to be re-balanced or changed completely. Video games are, with some exceptions (Dark Souls, etc), developed with the idea of accessibility in mind, so developers tend to take the easy road so that they can focus more on other aspects of the game without having to worry about revisiting game balancing completely. Instead, they'll simply rely on various gimmicks to gradually increase the difficulty of the game. It's also much easier on the majority of gamers who are not looking for a challenge when they play video games but would rather experience the story.
I'm with you though, I would love if game developers would attempt to create more intricate AIs. To have monsters act as something other than pinatas and for NPCs to be "alive" and moving.
Games are always looking for ways to cut expenses, why have all those NPC's doing all kinds of intricate stuff when most players are racing to max level while only a few actually want to read every book, talk to every NPC, or do every quest.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Games are always looking for ways to cut expenses, why have all those NPC's doing all kinds of intricate stuff when most players are racing to max level while only a few actually want to read every book, talk to every NPC, or do every quest.
that is what we have. I believe some of us would like a game that does something different. Which is part of why I wouldn't call a mmoRPG that I would make an mmoRPG. I'd search for a different word for it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Simply put - the resources needed to make NPCs behave more intelligently are simply too high.
I am talking primarily "developer coding" resources as times spent to develop interesting conversations, pathing and "loop" behaviors takes a LOT of dev time.
Also the higher the number of NPCs - the more complicated it gets to keep track of all the loops and interactions.
I think the primary reason why developers are not willing to spend major $$$ into making better NPCs in MMOs is the return on investment is probably not enough to justify it - unless they made something really revolutionary (like what EQN promised when it was first reveled at E3... we all know how that ended).
I imagine part of it would also be the incredible overhead all those complicated scripts running all the time would create. xD
Talk about a drain on system resources.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Simply put - the resources needed to make NPCs behave more intelligently are simply too high.
I am talking primarily "developer coding" resources as times spent to develop interesting conversations, pathing and "loop" behaviors takes a LOT of dev time.
Also the higher the number of NPCs - the more complicated it gets to keep track of all the loops and interactions.
I think the primary reason why developers are not willing to spend major $$$ into making better NPCs in MMOs is the return on investment is probably not enough to justify it - unless they made something really revolutionary (like what EQN promised when it was first reveled at E3... we all know how that ended).
I imagine part of it would also be the incredible overhead all those complicated scripts running all the time would create. xD
Talk about a drain on system resources.
I can't see that being the case. In my previous post I outlined what NPCs did in a rather complex MMO in 1998. I would think that almost two decades later, especially with most MMOs doing a fraction of what that older one was doing, the processing power would be there to handle slightly more interactive/active NPCs than we do now.
Of all the reasons for the dumbing down of NPCs, drain on system resources seems or even "developer coding" resources has rarely ever seemed to be the reason, at least for AAA MMOs.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Simply put - the resources needed to make NPCs behave more intelligently are simply too high.
I am talking primarily "developer coding" resources as times spent to develop interesting conversations, pathing and "loop" behaviors takes a LOT of dev time.
Also the higher the number of NPCs - the more complicated it gets to keep track of all the loops and interactions.
I think the primary reason why developers are not willing to spend major $$$ into making better NPCs in MMOs is the return on investment is probably not enough to justify it - unless they made something really revolutionary (like what EQN promised when it was first reveled at E3... we all know how that ended).
I played a game once that had some retarded coding, and one NPC would go to visit another NPC, and it would end up standing there talking to an EMPTY location because the NPC it was visiting was doing some other random task that got out of sequence.
At any rate it is quest hubs that do this. Areas are set up in highly dense quest hubs where you need the NPC to be there to get to the next rung on the quest ladder.
If you go back to the old everquest, back before ! over the heads of npcs, there were often NPCs not available sometimes, and you didn't know what the quests were unless you interacted with them, and often not even then.
But yes, that is a lot of extra work for the developers and only improves things for the minority of the playerbase that enjoy such things.
Get rid of the ! and have people have to find the NPCs with the quests on their own, and it makes more sense to have more dynamic NPCs.
Comments
The thing about MMOs is that most of them are basically about combat. Go down into a dungeon and kill anything you see, murder other players in an instance or solve open world problems (usually by smashing things). When the gameplay is like that there really is little points with intelligent npcs.
Now, if you made a intrigue game where players interacted with conspiring nobles, corrupt officials, thieves, blackmailers and such then you would need a way better npc AI to handle plots, twists and sharing of information but in a murder simulation not so much.
It is kinda strange that all MMOs are like that, a lot of MMOers are really smart people so there should be a market for at least some games with less hack'n slash.
Instead they followed the preferences of the masses and became multiplayer "games" with a very heavy focus on combat, and a decline on spending resouces on activities such as housing, crafting, or more realistic worlds.
In their defense, I think MMORPG developers expected interaction with other players was going to make spending lots of resources on npcs not necessary
No AI will ever outsmart other players, but most gamers don't really want to fight them.
Why? Biggest reason is because they're likely to lose. If an API came along and mimicked other players people would hate it and stay away in droves IMO.
Roaming mobs are mentioned, I recall dieing to them on multiple occasions in DAOC, and though few and far between most people did not welcome their interruption.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
A number of us would find it mildly impressive to see this even in just the main city, allowing it to be a bit more alive and vibrant than most recent games deliver.
Some would merely find it annoying as it is harder to find the NPCs they want and they could be asleep (shops open 8am to 7pm instead of 24/7)
Many players are so impatient, and the journey is so short though with so much is instanced that they don't bother.
I liken what has happened to turning them into pinball machines or a poorly done arcade game from the 70s/80s. It would have been nice to have world development over what we currently have.
Some people really just want to get in and out in their supposed 15 minutes of play. They don't want surprises or consequences. Not sure they even want to play attention.
Having mmoRPG as more of a world with better NPCs could open up game play. For years I have imagined a situation where you spy upon the high cleric at a local church by following him when he leaves. He wanders around town, perhaps interacting with others or trying to make sure he isn't followed, etc. Eventually, he joins others in a private location for a secret meeting with "some kind of bad guys". The stealthy player will get information might be able to follow one of the other NPCs to where they are from. There is an adventure in that and something that feels different from reading a quest.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
It's actually fairly simple. Why waste resources on NPC AI when any MMO is based around player’s interaction. Even on rails theme parks still revolve around you enjoying the game with other players. This is why a large portion of players don't read quests. The story/content is irrelevant to many people.
When playing a single player game it revolves are you and NPCs. So the need for investment is there.
NPC's exist for a reason in most RPG worlds.
As for the life in open world, this is a valid point to a degree. The current argument against advanced "life sim" is cost. The more advanced AI, the more operations, which equates to cost. Even worse, unnecessary cost as as most will not seen by players.
For example had Blizzard not shut down shards or nodes (whatever term they use internally) which are currently not in use (or technically they're in sleep mode), it would be a massive operation cost which would directly affect all players - e.g. higher subscription cost. Even the current stupid path movement, at say an update rate of once per second, times all the mobs in wow open world, times all the servers they uphold. That's massive. You could argue that one could keep the sleep mode - but then, as soon as no players are in that area - there's no life anyway - it's just as you left it. That's almost worse.
My two cents.
UO had NPCs that at least moved around their area and *performs work related action* from time to time. Most NPCs in games these days could be replaced with a sign post.
I think a lot of it is that modern players aren't willing to deal with even a little bit of inconvenience. Having to wait 30 minutes for the sun to come up and workers to resume their day, or having to look for an NPC because they leave their home to go shopping is more than your average member of the ADD generation could tolerate.
The other part is just resources. Other than the above mentioned BDO and to a much lesser extent GW2 most MMOs have a bare minimum of NPCs that aren't a vendor, guard or quest related. They don't want to spend the money on art, AI, and system resources to produce a more authentic environment.
Yes, that is a reason why they don't do it. But there is some portion, no matter how small, that would appreciate it. But this is all the end result of what gaming has become. ROI.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
AI in video games is tied heavily to other aspects of a game, such as combat and overall difficulty. Creating a more complex AI means that other aspects of the game will need to be re-balanced or changed completely. Video games are, with some exceptions (Dark Souls, etc), developed with the idea of accessibility in mind, so developers tend to take the easy road so that they can focus more on other aspects of the game without having to worry about revisiting game balancing completely. Instead, they'll simply rely on various gimmicks to gradually increase the difficulty of the game. It's also much easier on the majority of gamers who are not looking for a challenge when they play video games but would rather experience the story.
I'm with you though, I would love if game developers would attempt to create more intricate AIs. To have monsters act as something other than pinatas and for NPCs to be "alive" and moving.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
that is what we have. I believe some of us would like a game that does something different. Which is part of why I wouldn't call a mmoRPG that I would make an mmoRPG. I'd search for a different word for it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Talk about a drain on system resources.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Of all the reasons for the dumbing down of NPCs, drain on system resources seems or even "developer coding" resources has rarely ever seemed to be the reason, at least for AAA MMOs.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
If you go back to the old everquest, back before ! over the heads of npcs, there were often NPCs not available sometimes, and you didn't know what the quests were unless you interacted with them, and often not even then.
But yes, that is a lot of extra work for the developers and only improves things for the minority of the playerbase that enjoy such things.
Get rid of the ! and have people have to find the NPCs with the quests on their own, and it makes more sense to have more dynamic NPCs.