The problem is how trophies were given out in old MMORPG's. The one that runs the longest race at one time should not be the only one that gets a trophy.
While I don't care about PvP in MMORPGs I agree with the premise about them becoming too easy and redundant. A good argument can be made that they are in effect a playable novel, especially story-heavy themepark titles, but even from that point a little more difficulty would go a long way in giving a sense of actual accomlishment.
I prefer and really only play now MMOs that are harder and more group based but would like to see even solo-centric MMOs have some sense of difficulty and danger.
The problem is how trophies were given out in old MMORPG's. The one that runs the longest race at one time should not be the only one that gets a trophy.
MMORPGs are Marathons, you can't turn them into 100 Meters just because people have no time. But that' what happened in the last 10 years, and that's why mostly suck.
No no it gets even better,there are arrows and ?'s and !'s and markers right on maps showing exactly how and where to get those trophies.
Devs either lost sight of the type of game they were suppose to build or they never knew what the phrase role playing game means.Where did they think of these ideas,last time i checked,i walked out the door i have NEVER seen a yellow ? over someone's head.If i wanted to role play as Sidney Crosby,do i first need to follow a linear path of ?'s and !'s?Then do i need to go to the local travel information booth to buy a map so i can find my way to the raid dungeons so that i can better role play as Sidney Crosby??
Whoa but wait we have millions use our login screen everyday !!
Oh yes i see that,do they mingle,interact?? Dev:well not really,they pretty much just solo 99.9% of the time,then they enter a NON mmo atmosphere we call an instance RAID dungeon.
PERFECT !!! Sounds like your developer has a real grasp for the ROLE PLAY design build !1 sarcasm off/.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Challenge should vary with the situation don't you think? If you have characters that can die (or that undergo some change from death, but respawn), then you really should allow for challenge to be something that is germane to the situation.
Challenge in most games is really about making the choice to do something that you know will be a certain difficulty. There are no adventurous events where the players must react to different things and make decisions about what to do. It's a your level, covered by the wiki, and if you fail all you lost was time in your seat sort of thing in these games. You might even feel a bit better about beating lesser mobs if there is some sense of risk other than seat time.
As an MMORPG player you are always playing a sidescroller. A dimension or two is missing from these games.
Yes, of course it should. It should also vary depending on the player approach to a situation. Rushing right in load and clear should be more dangerous then using stealth and brain, but also faster.
But I feel that except in a few endgame instances the difficulty todays vary between incredible easy and rather easy. I am not saying all content should be super hard but MMOs need to challenge the players now and again.
Now if a game accidently add something marginally challenging in the open world the players cry all over the internet and then outlevel it before finally beating it.
I think MMOs need to evolve a new kind of AI. In P&P games you usually get the difficulty right because you have a GM that handles it. I think MMOs need an AI that spawns combat encounters challenging to the players in the vicinity. It is not so far fetched as it sounds, Biowares Neverwinter nights had a simple version of this 15 years ago.
You do need to use it smartly though and not just drop them in the players face all the time (ambushes can be fun but constant ambushes are annoying). change the difficulty of mobs accordingly to the players close to it.
Completely agree. More games now than ever before and before someone says "Well not the games I like" well look harder, lower your graphics standard or check out some of the amazing games in early access. Plus the future looks bright indeed with what is in the pipeline. No drought to be found. If anything we are on the cusp of an MMO renaissance!
Well, yes and no. The number of western AAA MMORPGs in development have dropped while China and Korea have increased their production.
Indie games have dropped but the crowdfunded games have showed up so I think those 2 together is at a normal level.
EA, Activision, Ubi soft, Bethesda and the rest of the western larger publishers have not revealed a single MMO they are working on right now and that is rather bad news.
MMOs are however huge in South Korea, China, the Philippines and Japan so it is a mixed bag of news.
The problem is how trophies were given out in old MMORPG's. The one that runs the longest race at one time should not be the only one that gets a trophy.
MMORPGs are Marathons, you can't turn them into 100 Meters just because people have no time. But that' what happened in the last 10 years, and that's why mostly suck.
So you're saying that content can only be challenging if it requires people to play in very long gaming sessions? So what's the cut off? Anything that requires less than three hours at a time can't be challenging? Or is it five hours? Ten maybe?
If you really believe that challenge can only exist in content that requires very large blocks of time in one sitting to complete then you might as well give up all hope for a challenging MMO ever again. There simply isn't a big enough market to support that type of game design.
The problem is how trophies were given out in old MMORPG's. The one that runs the longest race at one time should not be the only one that gets a trophy.
MMORPGs are Marathons, you can't turn them into 100 Meters just because people have no time. But that' what happened in the last 10 years, and that's why mostly suck.
So you're saying that content can only be challenging if it requires people to play in very long gaming sessions? So what's the cut off? Anything that requires less than three hours at a time can't be challenging? Or is it five hours? Ten maybe?
If you really believe that challenge can only exist in content that requires very large blocks of time in one sitting to complete then you might as well give up all hope for a challenging MMO ever again. There simply isn't a big enough market to support that type of game design.
And for good reason. Staying sedentary for 10 hours as a hobby should warrant a psych evaluation. It's disgusting. If you value competition and prestige that much, wasting your time on video games should be the LAST thing on your to-do list.
If you want to work hard at a hobby, try a real competitive sport. E-sports count too. At the end of the day, even if it was because you sat on your fat rear end for 60 hours a week grinding uber gear in the hardest raid, nobody but you an maybe the odd guild orbiter cares about a nobody's e-peen status.
The problem is how trophies were given out in old MMORPG's. The one that runs the longest race at one time should not be the only one that gets a trophy.
MMORPGs are Marathons, you can't turn them into 100 Meters just because people have no time. But that' what happened in the last 10 years, and that's why mostly suck.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
There are a couple solid games on the horizon that will change the Landscape of MMOs. Pantheon is the one I am holding out for. With Pantheon= EQ W/ new graphics. From a gamer stand point they are doing so many things right. Death penalties, no name changes, open world dungeons and solid raiding are only a few of the things that are going to make Pantheon a game changer.
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
Noooo, they are in a drought because the creators put less into games than they ever used to before. The older games offered more on release than anything released since LOTRO, and people complained about LOTRO on release too because it was theme park style, that had never been done before, and they were effectively releasing less than any other game in the history of MMO's at the time. Now almost all the games are following exactly the same style and path while simultaneously making it as easy as they possibly can ala WoW.
The problem is how trophies were given out in old MMORPG's. The one that runs the longest race at one time should not be the only one that gets a trophy.
MMORPGs are Marathons, you can't turn them into 100 Meters just because people have no time. But that' what happened in the last 10 years, and that's why mostly suck.
So you're saying that content can only be challenging if it requires people to play in very long gaming sessions? So what's the cut off? Anything that requires less than three hours at a time can't be challenging? Or is it five hours? Ten maybe?
If you really believe that challenge can only exist in content that requires very large blocks of time in one sitting to complete then you might as well give up all hope for a challenging MMO ever again. There simply isn't a big enough market to support that type of game design.
And for good reason. Staying sedentary for 10 hours as a hobby should warrant a psych evaluation. It's disgusting. If you value competition and prestige that much, wasting your time on video games should be the LAST thing on your to-do list.
If you want to work hard at a hobby, try a real competitive sport. E-sports count too. At the end of the day, even if it was because you sat on your fat rear end for 60 hours a week grinding uber gear in the hardest raid, nobody but you an maybe the odd guild orbiter cares about a nobody's e-peen status.
I think this is the issue with people these days. They will attack anything that doesn't fit their idea of the healthy life style. They will attack those who rebel against societies niceties. Right now I'm probably healthier than I was when I was young. I have a fairly strict diet and get a fair amount of exercise. I am also a lot less sleepy and not as prone to anger. The question is is that more fun? I guess one might argue it is more fun since you have more engery and have no health problems. None the less I don't think there are any times now where I had as much fun as playing Ultima Online or EQ for hours with other anti social dgenerates who shunned societies ideas for their own. Being optimally healthy and responcible doesn't mean life is more enjoyable. The only times I really had fun in life was on a animalistic level when I was young and playing pickup sports with friends or playing video games where we didn't talk to much (we just played). I find this whole forcing people to all be intellectuals is wrong and with such a short life span people should have the option to enjoy themselves in whatever way they can.
MMORPGs are Marathons, you can't turn them into 100 Meters just because people have no time. But that' what happened in the last 10 years, and that's why mostly suck.
So you're saying that content can only be challenging if it requires people to play in very long gaming sessions? So what's the cut off? Anything that requires less than three hours at a time can't be challenging? Or is it five hours? Ten maybe?
If you really believe that challenge can only exist in content that requires very large blocks of time in one sitting to complete then you might as well give up all hope for a challenging MMO ever again. There simply isn't a big enough market to support that type of game design.
Not at all. I am saying that MMORPGs are designed to be marathons (or at least they should), while other games are designed to be 100 Meters.
If you don't want to run for hours then choose the 100 Meters instead. Same way, if you don't have time to play MMORPGs, play other games, don't try to turn MMORPGs into something else.
Two different disciplines, two different type of games. Two different type of Athletes, two different type of Players.
It would be entitlement if the people were demanding the devs do it. It's the other way around though devs are chasing the people.
BDO is kind of the opposite there. Servers are down for an extra few minutes and people on the forums are all demanding some kind of reward or gift. Log into many current MMOs and there is a reward just for loggin on, reward for hitting level 10, 20, etc. Old MMOs weren't so much about rewards. Sure there was like yearly membership rewards. But not to the extreme they are now. MMOs just mimicking Real life...every kid gets a reward just for showing up to the race...which kind of makes being first irrelevant anymore.
It's weird watching people discuss having time or disposable income (or mismanaging it) as some special in-game skill or talent. It's like;
"yeah I live in a hovel don't do anything else but play the game 10 hours a day... git gud"
or
"yeah I have tons of disposable income, I'm not good at the game but i bought the finish line... git gud"
I don't have a problem with people getting everything they desire if I know they're actually better than me at the game we're both playing. Folks are out here acting like they're making Top 8 in Capcom Cup and it's kinda hilarious.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
In this annoying effort to take all potentially negative emotions out of mmo gaming, companies have removed competition, challenge, and pretty much all sense of failure. I know some people love auto-pathing, fast travel (from anywhere), group finder, raid finder, ETC... these features are all designed lower the goal post so that you don't risk experiencing any kind of frustration.
World pvp... don't get me started. Dropping an item when you die, we can't have that now since you are carrying "SUPER RARES" that you got in raid finder and having to do that again might take a day or so.
Talent trees, either so overly balanced that you're just re-skinning a total of 12 abilities throughout different classes, or so narrow you only have 2 options and don't take any planning at all.
Leveling up? You get this glorious sparkle fart over your head and amazing music because you auto-pathed from 1 npc to another and clicked on them, sometimes the auto-pathing clicks them for you when you get there. It used to be that you actually learned the layout of the city you were in because there might be pvp there....
I love challenging games. I don't really like twitch combat, or muscle memory battles, more strategy and execution type stuff. I liked the original vanilla WoW raids where most guilds couldn't down the gatekeeper boss and you had to try to find a really competent group. They've since made raids super accessible with raid-finder (I'm aware of hard difficulty that you can do with your guild but it's really just watered down monthly until everyone gets that trophy too)
I loved in Aion learning where updrafts were in the wind so I could come in and out of world pvp and surprise gank / escape, and other people who didn't take the time to learn the environment couldn't stay with me. (They made it impossible to perma-rift now)
In Lineage 2 you could gank friendlies, but if you did so you were exposed to dropping items when killed.
I guess I'm just asking for a game that will hand you a cold dish of shit soup if your bad, and encourage you to get better-In all aspects... leveling, pvp, raiding. Make you actually do some work for that glorious sparkle-fart. I just can't get into games anymore because I feel like I'm either in an auto-pilot game, or a mad dash to the finish line to play this mysterious end game everyone is complaining about-and looking at other people of my class that made it there all wearing identical end-game items that were ' ' SO HARD ' ' to get.
Wow was an anomaly and it's success ruined the niche industry that was MMO games. Yes it has a WAY bigger audience than any of the others ever thought about, but every other game genre has plenty of games coming out: Racing, Shooter, Survival, RPG (except they've done this whole line of crap to elder scrolls too, that's for a different thread). Have racing games gotten easier? Have shooters gotten easier? Did they add auto-aim so you don't miss and get frustrated? Does the racing game let you switch cars with the winner so you don't have to lose?
Look at Darkfall... it's like the opposite club. Hard hard hard. It's a dichotomy, either I play my little ponies in the main stream MMO production line, or a bitter painful game that punishes defeat to the fullest. I do enjoy darkfall because of the challenge, but I think there's room in the industry for some middle ground.
So you should of made it clear in your thread title that you are complaining that PVP is two easy.
Only several Times a week for 17 years. Many people have said similar words about others in a derogatory manner. No one had said that about themselves. Possibly ever.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
While I don't care about PvP in MMORPGs I agree with the premise about them becoming too easy and redundant. A good argument can be made that they are in effect a playable novel, especially story-heavy themepark titles, but even from that point a little more difficulty would go a long way in giving a sense of actual accomlishment.
I prefer and really only play now MMOs that are harder and more group based but would like to see even solo-centric MMOs have some sense of difficulty and danger.
MMORPGs are Marathons, you can't turn them into 100 Meters just because people have no time.
But that' what happened in the last 10 years, and that's why mostly suck.
~~ postlarval ~~
Devs either lost sight of the type of game they were suppose to build or they never knew what the phrase role playing game means.Where did they think of these ideas,last time i checked,i walked out the door i have NEVER seen a yellow ? over someone's head.If i wanted to role play as Sidney Crosby,do i first need to follow a linear path of ?'s and !'s?Then do i need to go to the local travel information booth to buy a map so i can find my way to the raid dungeons so that i can better role play as Sidney Crosby??
Whoa but wait we have millions use our login screen everyday !!
Oh yes i see that,do they mingle,interact??
Dev:well not really,they pretty much just solo 99.9% of the time,then they enter a NON mmo atmosphere we call an instance RAID dungeon.
PERFECT !!! Sounds like your developer has a real grasp for the ROLE PLAY design build !1 sarcasm off/.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
But I feel that except in a few endgame instances the difficulty todays vary between incredible easy and rather easy. I am not saying all content should be super hard but MMOs need to challenge the players now and again.
Now if a game accidently add something marginally challenging in the open world the players cry all over the internet and then outlevel it before finally beating it.
I think MMOs need to evolve a new kind of AI. In P&P games you usually get the difficulty right because you have a GM that handles it. I think MMOs need an AI that spawns combat encounters challenging to the players in the vicinity. It is not so far fetched as it sounds, Biowares Neverwinter nights had a simple version of this 15 years ago.
You do need to use it smartly though and not just drop them in the players face all the time (ambushes can be fun but constant ambushes are annoying). change the difficulty of mobs accordingly to the players close to it.
Indie games have dropped but the crowdfunded games have showed up so I think those 2 together is at a normal level.
EA, Activision, Ubi soft, Bethesda and the rest of the western larger publishers have not revealed a single MMO they are working on right now and that is rather bad news.
MMOs are however huge in South Korea, China, the Philippines and Japan so it is a mixed bag of news.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
So you're saying that content can only be challenging if it requires people to play in very long gaming sessions? So what's the cut off? Anything that requires less than three hours at a time can't be challenging? Or is it five hours? Ten maybe?
If you really believe that challenge can only exist in content that requires very large blocks of time in one sitting to complete then you might as well give up all hope for a challenging MMO ever again. There simply isn't a big enough market to support that type of game design.
I agree. It is about entitlement.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
I am saying that MMORPGs are designed to be marathons (or at least they should), while other games are designed to be 100 Meters.
If you don't want to run for hours then choose the 100 Meters instead.
Same way, if you don't have time to play MMORPGs, play other games, don't try to turn MMORPGs into something else.
Two different disciplines, two different type of games.
Two different type of Athletes, two different type of Players.
Old MMOs weren't so much about rewards. Sure there was like yearly membership rewards. But not to the extreme they are now.
MMOs just mimicking Real life...every kid gets a reward just for showing up to the race...which kind of makes being first irrelevant anymore.
And he want the difficulty to be hard enough to be challenging but not too difficult that he can't get his trophy.
"yeah I live in a hovel don't do anything else but play the game 10 hours a day... git gud"
or
"yeah I have tons of disposable income, I'm not good at the game but i bought the finish line... git gud"
I don't have a problem with people getting everything they desire if I know they're actually better than me at the game we're both playing. Folks are out here acting like they're making Top 8 in Capcom Cup and it's kinda hilarious.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So you should of made it clear in your thread title that you are complaining that PVP is two easy.
This /\