The problem is MMORPGS have become about end game now as opposed to the overall journey and forever forward progression. Now adays there is a very linear zone progression path to leveling and the quest hubs just go by quickly. The lack of actual zones and slow progression to match it leads to leveling being shorter to hide this fact. Look at old school EQ or UO or a lot of the older MMORPGS vs an MMORPG from today (including WoW), go look at the overall zones built up for those games at launch and then progression into now. As a for instance just going over this chart http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zlvlchart.html Look at how many different zones for a level there are where as WoW has maybe 2 or 3 per level if lucky... (end game now has zones that scale to level) and EQ was/is at a much slower progression unless you go and get a power level (in general regards to EQ vs WoW (EQ of course is faster now than it used to be)
There realistically isn't a good way to handle this anymore as this was bound to be the evolution of the genre as soon as it became more main stream with products like WoW. This is why i'm happy to see the bigger publishers/developers leaving the genre as the people that may actually bring the good back and be happy to be niche again might shine once more .
The problem is MMORPGS have become about end game now as opposed to the overall journey and forever forward progression. Now adays there is a very linear zone progression path to leveling and the quest hubs just go by quickly. The lack of actual zones and slow progression to match it leads to leveling being shorter to hide this fact. Look at old school EQ or UO or a lot of the older MMORPGS vs an MMORPG from today (including WoW), go look at the overall zones built up for those games at launch and then progression into now. As a for instance just going over this chart http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zlvlchart.html Look at how many different zones for a level there are where as WoW has maybe 2 or 3 per level if lucky... (end game now has zones that scale to level) and EQ was/is at a much slower progression unless you go and get a power level (in general regards to EQ vs WoW (EQ of course is faster now than it used to be)
There realistically isn't a good way to handle this anymore as this was bound to be the evolution of the genre as soon as it became more main stream with products like WoW. This is why i'm happy to see the bigger publishers/developers leaving the genre as the people that may actually bring the good back and be happy to be niche again might shine once more .
Really nailed it here. Following the yellow brick road was engaging and fun when just one person tread it in a story. When you're number 6198746 however it begins to feel bland and manufactured like some sort of MMO flavored cheese in a can O.o.
MMORPGs are Marathons, you can't turn them into 100 Meters just because people have no time. But that' what happened in the last 10 years, and that's why mostly suck.
Umm, no. They're not marathons. When did they turn into marathons where only one person gets a prize? I think that's wishful thinking by the insecure looking for validation.
You know why that design is dying? Because no one else wants to pay for an mmo where one person gets to have fun and everyone else gets to suck it. Who wants to talk about how cool the other guy is let alone pay for his game.
MMOs used to be games where anyone could get the prizes and it was about gaming and social interaction, not winning marathons. Maybe that's an EQ / WoW thing, but other games weren't like that.
Indeed, MMO used to be something where competent teams get rewards and incompetent people fail. That is nowhere like a marathon.
And making a MMO for tens of thousands of players with a single winner doesn't sound that wise. Reward people who play well, don't give anything to people playing badly besides encouragement to learn how to play better.
Umm, no. They're not marathons. When did they turn into marathons where only one person gets a prize? I think that's wishful thinking by the insecure looking for validation.
You know why that design is dying? Because no one else wants to pay for an mmo where one person gets to have fun and everyone else gets to suck it. Who wants to talk about how cool the other guy is let alone pay for his game.
MMOs used to be games where anyone could get the prizes and it was about gaming and social interaction, not winning marathons. Maybe that's an EQ / WoW thing, but other games weren't like that.
I am not sure I am following you.
So you are saying that in EQ you would get a prize just to turn up to raid? Because that wasn't my experience, you will go weeks without getting anything worth talking about, if not months, same for UO, DaoC, AC, SWG and Vanilla WoW (Marathons).
In fact this culture of getting something just by turning up (100 Meters) started with WoW when Blizzard introduced Tokens, Achievements, and badass Gear for everyone. And this culture is what dominates the MMORPG market today. So it's quite the opposite of what you are saying (unless I misunderstood).
People don't want to play a game where everyone wear the best Epic Gear exactly like you do, and look exactly like you do. Where is the sense of achievement if everyone wins? Surely the challenge of reaching your goal is what drives people to play games, not the prize itself (which is the icing on the cake), am I right?
If you were right, no one would race the 100m as everybody knows Usain Bolt is going to win it. Yet plenty of athletes train and race everyday dreaming to beat Bolt one day, in fact probably Bolt dominance made Athletics more popular as more athletes get involved with it because of him (not the opposite). That's why people do sports, for the challenge of becoming number one (and beat the current number one), and the mindset of a gamer is just the same. Where is the fun if everyone is Usain Bolt?
That's why people do sports, for the challenge of becoming number one (and beat the current number one), and the mindset of a gamer is just the same.
The problem with PvE leveling in most MMORPGS, from the late 90's to present day, is that it's a complete snooze fest, they're the least challenging when it comes to gameplay.
The introduction of questing actually made it bearable for me. It stopped me from reading books whilst leveling like I did in EQ.
They didn't require the long leveling. You didn't need that time to learn new skills, the gameplay is to simplistic to require the lengthy leveling.
IMO the long leveling was to keep you subbed/paying for as long as possible.
I didn't come to this genre to challenge myself, I'd be sorely disappointed if I did.
I didn't come to this genre to challenge myself, I'd be sorely disappointed if I did.
So why did you come to this genre, why do you play MMORPGs or any game for that matter, if you don't mind me asking?
The main allure for me was the idea of playing with others that didn't involve PvP. I've been online gaming since the mid 90's, FPS & RTS games (Quake/Quake 2 and CnC/Starcraft mainly).
I liked the idea of coming into a world to explore with others, not fight them. Even though I could and do PvP in MMORPGs where I do get my challenge fix.
Not all games are about being the best. RPGs are not e-sports for me. They're about character progression, story and choice.
Nah what Darkfall does is what all "hardcore open world PvP" games do - they punish casual players and cater to cheater/exploiter and non-lifers.
Darkfall for example has an aimbot that always lands blow to the head for example - yes it works with both new versions of Darkfall.
There's nothing "hard hard hard" about open world PvP games - as they are always based unequal odds before the battle starts - due to gear, numbers or often exploits.
If you want something that purely takes skill - try MOBAs - go against top teams and see what "hard hard hard" is.
The main allure for me was the idea of playing with others that didn't involve PvP. I've been online gaming since the mid 90's, FPS & RTS games (Quake/Quake 2 and CnC/Starcraft mainly).
I liked the idea of coming into a world to explore with others, not fight them. Even though I could and do PvP in MMORPGs where I do get my challenge fix.
To be fair I wasn't talking about PvP, but specifically about PvE. When I said that people or players strive to beat the number one, I didn't mean it in an actual fight. Do you really think that only PvP can be a competitive environment?
PvE can be as challenging and competitive as PvP, the only difference is that you are competing with other players to get the best Gear or Status instead of actually physically defeating another player.
When a play a Single Player game, I challenge myself. When I play PvE MMOs I challenge other players to achieve better results then anyone else (that means cooperating with others to achieve my goal). When I play PvP MMOs I challenge other players so I can beat their ass. Me in a nutshell, not sure what other reasons people play games for.
That's why people do sports, for the challenge of becoming number one (and beat the current number one), and the mindset of a gamer is just the same.
The problem with PvE leveling in most MMORPGS, from the late 90's to present day, is that it's a complete snooze fest, they're the least challenging when it comes to gameplay.
The introduction of questing actually made it bearable for me. It stopped me from reading books whilst leveling like I did in EQ.
They didn't require the long leveling. You didn't need that time to learn new skills, the gameplay is to simplistic to require the lengthy leveling.
IMO the long leveling was to keep you subbed/paying for as long as possible.
I didn't come to this genre to challenge myself, I'd be sorely disappointed if I did.
There is some truth to this, but it was more challenging. It's a combination of different game mechanics that made it that way.
You had artificially more challenging mobs. Even the easiest mob could kill you. If you had a group of green easy mobs attacking you they could bring you down.
Mobs walking around patrolling and had much larger aggro radius es. Even safe spots weren't really safe.
Mobs called out for help and assisted one another. Getting an add often meant death.
People would bring trains intentionally or unintentionally and it was something to keep things more exciting.
There was no guidance on where to go or how to play the game/class. You had to figure it out on your own.
Spells/abilities were not all available for purchase. The vendors had certain spells/abilities could be difficult to find. Some had to be crafted and it was difficult to find out what dropped the components and what components you needed.
Faction meant you had to be wary even of guards as they might attack you.
Competition over finite things in game alone made things more exciting. You had people fighting over everything.
In today's game soloing consists of following exclamation points arrows and glory trails around until you get another easy to get item. You do this over and over until max level and then raid. You might also choose to group or pop in some games to increase challenge a bit. Mobs are generally easy in solo play. There is no need for kiting or other out of the box tactics. There is no competition over items or spawn spots in game. Spells/abilities are given automatically at level up. People then ask why I find it less exciting.
Those old games may have been slower paced and trying to keep you playing but there was always a realistic mimicking of the real world where people were competing with great vigor. You even had a realistic market where people would competatively compete to undercut you on certain items. Items also actually had value since there were long spawn times, rare drops, and only one mobile for everyone.
This is the same argument you can have with a faster paced game like Diablo. Why was Diablo 1/2 more fun than Diablo 3? It's because you could kill people, steal things from them, and fight over spawns. Nothing was really safe. This cutthroat environment is the essence of real adventure and excitement because it replicates the excitement that's things aren't really safe and there are no rules to protect you. That is real excitement and adventure IMO.
The problem is MMORPGS have become about end game now as opposed to the overall journey and forever forward progression. Now adays there is a very linear zone progression path to leveling and the quest hubs just go by quickly. The lack of actual zones and slow progression to match it leads to leveling being shorter to hide this fact. Look at old school EQ or UO or a lot of the older MMORPGS vs an MMORPG from today (including WoW), go look at the overall zones built up for those games at launch and then progression into now. As a for instance just going over this chart http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zlvlchart.html Look at how many different zones for a level there are where as WoW has maybe 2 or 3 per level if lucky... (end game now has zones that scale to level) and EQ was/is at a much slower progression unless you go and get a power level (in general regards to EQ vs WoW (EQ of course is faster now than it used to be)
There realistically isn't a good way to handle this anymore as this was bound to be the evolution of the genre as soon as it became more main stream with products like WoW. This is why i'm happy to see the bigger publishers/developers leaving the genre as the people that may actually bring the good back and be happy to be niche again might shine once more .
think the way that developers are trying to overcome this is to take out leveling.
In this annoying effort to take all potentially negative emotions out of mmo gaming, companies have removed competition, challenge, and pretty much all sense of failure. I know some people love auto-pathing, fast travel (from anywhere), group finder, raid finder, ETC... these features are all designed lower the goal post so that you don't risk experiencing any kind of frustration.
World pvp... don't get me started. Dropping an item when you die, we can't have that now since you are carrying "SUPER RARES" that you got in raid finder and having to do that again might take a day or so.
Talent trees, either so overly balanced that you're just re-skinning a total of 12 abilities throughout different classes, or so narrow you only have 2 options and don't take any planning at all.
Leveling up? You get this glorious sparkle fart over your head and amazing music because you auto-pathed from 1 npc to another and clicked on them, sometimes the auto-pathing clicks them for you when you get there. It used to be that you actually learned the layout of the city you were in because there might be pvp there....
I love challenging games. I don't really like twitch combat, or muscle memory battles, more strategy and execution type stuff. I liked the original vanilla WoW raids where most guilds couldn't down the gatekeeper boss and you had to try to find a really competent group. They've since made raids super accessible with raid-finder (I'm aware of hard difficulty that you can do with your guild but it's really just watered down monthly until everyone gets that trophy too)
I loved in Aion learning where updrafts were in the wind so I could come in and out of world pvp and surprise gank / escape, and other people who didn't take the time to learn the environment couldn't stay with me. (They made it impossible to perma-rift now)
In Lineage 2 you could gank friendlies, but if you did so you were exposed to dropping items when killed.
I guess I'm just asking for a game that will hand you a cold dish of shit soup if your bad, and encourage you to get better-In all aspects... leveling, pvp, raiding. Make you actually do some work for that glorious sparkle-fart. I just can't get into games anymore because I feel like I'm either in an auto-pilot game, or a mad dash to the finish line to play this mysterious end game everyone is complaining about-and looking at other people of my class that made it there all wearing identical end-game items that were ' ' SO HARD ' ' to get.
Wow was an anomaly and it's success ruined the niche industry that was MMO games. Yes it has a WAY bigger audience than any of the others ever thought about, but every other game genre has plenty of games coming out: Racing, Shooter, Survival, RPG (except they've done this whole line of crap to elder scrolls too, that's for a different thread). Have racing games gotten easier? Have shooters gotten easier? Did they add auto-aim so you don't miss and get frustrated? Does the racing game let you switch cars with the winner so you don't have to lose?
Look at Darkfall... it's like the opposite club. Hard hard hard. It's a dichotomy, either I play my little ponies in the main stream MMO production line, or a bitter painful game that punishes defeat to the fullest. I do enjoy darkfall because of the challenge, but I think there's room in the industry for some middle ground.
maybe you have enjoyed all that but just check if you have nostalgia goggles on. AC yes you had to figure out what comps made what spells and test and test and it was great...until 4 hours later and your sitting in the same room testing testing. ( Fun, i am not sure now)
Advancement vs reward. Games have to have a paying player base or games do not happen and a % of that money has to go to the developing company for it to make it worth while. Unless you find someone like the CU team you is not doing it for money. I personally backed the game knowing I am probably going to hate it but those small group are going to make your niche game that you or I want.
In the beginning there were 3 mmo's (depending on how you count mmo) from there it became a hug business. Now to combat moba, developers have to make progression easier to stay competitive.
maybe you have enjoyed all that but just check if you have nostalgia goggles on. AC yes you had to figure out what comps made what spells and test and test and it was great...until 4 hours later and your sitting in the same room testing testing. ( Fun, i am not sure now)
Advancement vs reward. Games have to have a paying player base or games do not happen and a % of that money has to go to the developing company for it to make it worth while. Unless you find someone like the CU team you is not doing it for money. I personally backed the game knowing I am probably going to hate it but those small group are going to make your niche game that you or I want.
In the beginning there were 3 mmo's (depending on how you count mmo) from there it became a hug business. Now to combat moba, developers have to make progression easier to stay competitive.
I dunno, I feel that they are trying to bribe players with drops and xp instead of making the gameplay more fun. Making progression easier is not necessarily a good thing.
MMOs have 2 types of fun: Long term and short term. Short term have been increased a long term decreased which means that the average time a player spends in a MMO is far less today then earlier. MMOs preferably should have both in the right mix, fun enough short term to hook players but not giving out all the fun things too fast either.
Yes, everyone gets a trophy. And there is something for everyone. I don't see those as bad things.
The thing is - at least in some the games I've played - far from everyone gets THE trophy.
Take EQ2, which is the MMO I've spent the most time playing. Over the last 10 years, getting to max level has gone from taking weeks to taking a day or two. So people will say "omg, the game is too easy!". But the thing is... getting to max level is not THE TROPHY as you put it. It's not even much of an accomplishment.
What IS an accomplishment is beating the big bad boss of any given expansion. And that, gets done by maybe a couple of hundred people out of thousands upon thousands. If that.
The challenge is there if you look for it.
The response I typically get when I bring this up with people who say "the game is too easy!" is that "well, it's not the challenge i want.. it takes too long, i need to learn how to excel at my character, i have to get proper gear, i have to compete for a spot in a good guild, i have to learn to play with others... it's not the KIND of difficulty i want!!!" So what you're saying then is that when you want the game to be "hard", you just want it to be hard at something you're good at, so that you can do it easily and then make fun of others? That's not really "hard" at all, is it?
I stopped playing MMOs earlier this year, so i don't keep up on the progression, but at one point last year, I had checked the EQ2 progression tracker and out of 200+ guilds that were raiding, less than 10 were even ON the final boss of the game.
I don't pretend to play every game out there, but I imagine that there are plenty of games with similar statistics for challenging content.
The main difference that the last 10-15 years have brought is that instead of it being difficult to learn to play or get to max level, it is now easy. I won't argue with that. But that's also not where the challenge is meant to be. Challenge still exists, it has just moved into places where only those looking for it will go.
Out the games I played - EQ2, FFXIV, TSW and AoC all had excellent and very challenging PVE encounters and mechanics. I don't play any of them anymore (and some not for a while), but there was plenty of challenge. If you're claiming that there's no challenge, the first thing you should ask yourself is whether (and how easily) did you defeat the most difficult encounter in YOUR game. If you haven't, maybe you should try that.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
I remember doing Heriocs in NGE SWG. At the end of the dungeon 1 or two things would drop and we would roll for them. If that happened in a game to day people's heads would blow apart from the radioactive unfairness.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
The problem is how trophies were given out in old MMORPG's. The one that runs the longest race at one time should not be the only one that gets a trophy.
MMORPGs are Marathons, you can't turn them into 100 Meters just because people have no time. But that' what happened in the last 10 years, and that's why mostly suck.
They didn't stop at 100 meters tho. You can buy a start at the 98 meter line, a costume, a pet, gold, bag space, loot boxes, and everything else. So much so that it's not so much an MMORPG but a cash shop item mall.
Then you have people going what drought, oh I dunno how about quality over quantity? A big cesspool is still a cesspool of cash shop crap.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Look at Darkfall... it's like the opposite club. Hard hard hard. It's a dichotomy, either I play my little ponies in the main stream MMO production line, or a bitter painful game that punishes defeat to the fullest. I do enjoy darkfall because of the challenge, but I think there's room in the industry for some middle ground.
Nah what Darkfall does is what all "hardcore open world PvP" games do - they punish casual players and cater to cheater/exploiter and non-lifers.
Darkfall for example has an aimbot that always lands blow to the head for example - yes it works with both new versions of Darkfall.
There's nothing "hard hard hard" about open world PvP games - as they are always based unequal odds before the battle starts - due to gear, numbers or often exploits.
If you want something that purely takes skill - try MOBAs - go against top teams and see what "hard hard hard" is.
While I agree there was a time where quite a few people aimbotted, headshots don't matter at in the gamem but back shots do.
I think non consensual pvp is the best kind because you are always on your guard, however most mmorpgs do not do it right because the penalties for killing someone aren't severe enough. Mmorpgs are always about character progression though, so I'm not sure why you want a completely fair enviroment when it contrasts the genre itself. There are plenty of fps/mobas out there for those that want strictly playerskill dependent games. I like the extra element open world pvp games bring and having full loot just means your death was something you cared about; not "oh i'll just just right back into the fight".
There is a difference between "hard hard hard" when its going against a professional competition gamer and surviving game mechanics. Each is a different kind of "hard".
A lot of arrogant people in this thread... arrogant and insulting, calling random people who may very well be the doctor who will someday save their life names like "simpleton".
Just a hint for them: most people play video games for fun, because they are games, and not because it's a like a second job for them. Or actually, even the only job they have...
I guess it's way more fun to spend 5 hours in a raid and get nothing at all at the end because of bad RNG and because that guildmate had more DKP. Or getting ganked and looted dry as a noob each time you leave town without the slightest chance to fight back. Oh yeah, that was so much fun, so relaxing.
You are certainly right about that but there is a difference between "a second job" and "challenging".
Someone decided about 15 years ago that all games need to be easier, way easier. And I kinda feel that insulting as well, to me it seems like it is the game devs that think we are simpletons.
Hard is not the same as time consuming. Guildwars for example had plenty of challenging stuff in the beginning (nerfed nowadays) but it wasn't very time consuming.
Also, not all games should be as time consuming as other games, that is like replacing all books with comics. Games should span from fast and casual towards something you do a lot.
In short: Focusing all MMOs on the exact playergroup is not good. Particularly since more and more of that playergroup is moving to mobile gaming and ain't coming back. There might be 3 times as many super casuals as all other player groups together, but they are both the playergroup that stays shortest in the same game and the group that have moved most to other types of games.
You might want to go check out Darkfall New Dawn or Darkfall Rise of Agon if you want the challenge back in your MMORPG. Though most of that challenge is frustration management from your time investment being wasted from a full loot system. A semi loot system is the best middle ground imho, you keep what you equip, but it looses durability, and each repair makes the durability shorter until it runs out of durability and breaks. I think what's in your pack should be lootable. This can take so much frustration out of a PVP centric RPG MMO, whilst still keeping risk vs reward. If you don't care about RPG and just want full on mind blowing mass MMO PVP , then Planetside 2 is the game
Pvp is NOT an answer,pvp only belongs in a fast arena type game where all you do and expect is pvp.You cannot have pvp in an environment where only some of the players want to pvp at that given time,the other party will be pissed off and having pissed off players is NOT an intelligent way to design a mmorpg.
Easier is most certainly true and why,i have no idea.I still remember MANY years ago playing RFO,i was thinking to myself,hmmm this player is pretty smart,really knows his stuff,then found out later on he was only 12 years old..lmao.
Point being that game devs do not give kids enough credit,even as young as sub ten year olds are quite computer savvy,smart when comes to figuring out stuff.So i often ask myself,are producers/devs that naive,are they clueless,do they not understand their audience or is there another reason?
I believe it is because of the lazy cheap way they design the games.They want to utilize simple templates and menus so that ALL content can be tied to those two simple mouse clicks.They want every interaction to again point to the same templates,utilizing triggers in the exact same manner so that every quest can be done the same way.The trigger is almost ALWAYS a big yellow "?" over an npc head.
It takes a LOT of work to create different systems,if you had to create a whole new menu system and different trigger types and menus for each quest,the game would never get done.MUCH easier to just have npc waiting for trigger A or B then go to sub program that waits for A or B condition to be met,then triggers again either a reward or to another sub program,but always the same idea over and over. So there has to be a fine line between SIMPLE easy game design and putting in enough effort into the systems that the game becomes fun and interesting and with lots of choices.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
"You know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world where noone suffered, where everyone is happy? That was a dissaster, no one accepted the program..." - Agent Smith, Matrix.
MMORPGS should be like life, sometimes win, be rewarded, be happy, and sometimes lose and be fustrated, yes, pay to be fustrated, sounds extrange but nobody is accepting the program for more than a few months right now like Smith predicted...
The problem is how trophies were given out in old MMORPG's. The one that runs the longest race at one time should not be the only one that gets a trophy.
MMORPGs are Marathons, you can't turn them into 100 Meters just because people have no time. But that' what happened in the last 10 years, and that's why mostly suck.
Umm, no. They're not marathons. When did they turn into marathons where only one person gets a prize? I think that's wishful thinking by the insecure looking for validation.
You know why that design is dying? Because no one else wants to pay for an mmo where one person gets to have fun and everyone else gets to suck it. Who wants to talk about how cool the other guy is let alone pay for his game.
MMOs used to be games where anyone could get the prizes and it was about gaming and social interaction, not winning marathons. Maybe that's an EQ / WoW thing, but other games weren't like that.
Your over-simplification is just as extreme as his, only in the other direction.
No games, including WoW or EQ were about only rewarding those who completed some extreme marathon. They were however more about time devotion. Their basic premise was to incentivize playing the game and offer few consolation prizes that water down player achievements in general. The more you played, the more you were rewarded. Not just who can play the best, who can create the biggest guild, or who can spend the most in the cash shop.
This was the case in ALL first generation MMORPGs, including AC, UO, DAoC and Meridian 59. There were few easily obtained sprinter prizes, but they all rewarded the people who devoted time above all else.
If you wanted to become notorious and run a city in UO, it took time. If you wanted the most powerful realm rank abilities in DAoC, it took time. Wanted to take down the biggest mobs and get the rarest gear in EQ, it took time. Those incentives are how you keep a virtual world populated, and failing to understand this is why MMOs are floundering.
and oh yes, they certainly are floundering. Those who say otherwise are deluding themselves
Comments
There realistically isn't a good way to handle this anymore as this was bound to be the evolution of the genre as soon as it became more main stream with products like WoW. This is why i'm happy to see the bigger publishers/developers leaving the genre as the people that may actually bring the good back and be happy to be niche again might shine once more .
Really nailed it here. Following the yellow brick road was engaging and fun when just one person tread it in a story. When you're number 6198746 however it begins to feel bland and manufactured like some sort of MMO flavored cheese in a can O.o.
And making a MMO for tens of thousands of players with a single winner doesn't sound that wise. Reward people who play well, don't give anything to people playing badly besides encouragement to learn how to play better.
So you are saying that in EQ you would get a prize just to turn up to raid?
Because that wasn't my experience, you will go weeks without getting anything worth talking about, if not months, same for UO, DaoC, AC, SWG and Vanilla WoW (Marathons).
In fact this culture of getting something just by turning up (100 Meters) started with WoW when Blizzard introduced Tokens, Achievements, and badass Gear for everyone.
And this culture is what dominates the MMORPG market today.
So it's quite the opposite of what you are saying (unless I misunderstood).
People don't want to play a game where everyone wear the best Epic Gear exactly like you do, and look exactly like you do.
Where is the sense of achievement if everyone wins?
Surely the challenge of reaching your goal is what drives people to play games, not the prize itself (which is the icing on the cake), am I right?
If you were right, no one would race the 100m as everybody knows Usain Bolt is going to win it.
Yet plenty of athletes train and race everyday dreaming to beat Bolt one day, in fact probably Bolt dominance made Athletics more popular as more athletes get involved with it because of him (not the opposite).
That's why people do sports, for the challenge of becoming number one (and beat the current number one), and the mindset of a gamer is just the same.
Where is the fun if everyone is Usain Bolt?
The introduction of questing actually made it bearable for me. It stopped me from reading books whilst leveling like I did in EQ.
They didn't require the long leveling. You didn't need that time to learn new skills, the gameplay is to simplistic to require the lengthy leveling.
IMO the long leveling was to keep you subbed/paying for as long as possible.
I didn't come to this genre to challenge myself, I'd be sorely disappointed if I did.
I liked the idea of coming into a world to explore with others, not fight them. Even though I could and do PvP in MMORPGs where I do get my challenge fix.
Not all games are about being the best. RPGs are not e-sports for me. They're about character progression, story and choice.
When I said that people or players strive to beat the number one, I didn't mean it in an actual fight.
Do you really think that only PvP can be a competitive environment?
PvE can be as challenging and competitive as PvP, the only difference is that you are competing with other players to get the best Gear or Status instead of actually physically defeating another player.
When a play a Single Player game, I challenge myself.
When I play PvE MMOs I challenge other players to achieve better results then anyone else (that means cooperating with others to achieve my goal).
When I play PvP MMOs I challenge other players so I can beat their ass.
Me in a nutshell, not sure what other reasons people play games for.
You had artificially more challenging mobs. Even the easiest mob could kill you. If you had a group of green easy mobs attacking you they could bring you down.
Mobs walking around patrolling and had much larger aggro radius es. Even safe spots weren't really safe.
Mobs called out for help and assisted one another. Getting an add often meant death.
People would bring trains intentionally or unintentionally and it was something to keep things more exciting.
There was no guidance on where to go or how to play the game/class. You had to figure it out on your own.
Spells/abilities were not all available for purchase. The vendors had certain spells/abilities could be difficult to find. Some had to be crafted and it was difficult to find out what dropped the components and what components you needed.
Faction meant you had to be wary even of guards as they might attack you.
Competition over finite things in game alone made things more exciting. You had people fighting over everything.
In today's game soloing consists of following exclamation points arrows and glory trails around until you get another easy to get item. You do this over and over until max level and then raid. You might also choose to group or pop in some games to increase challenge a bit. Mobs are generally easy in solo play. There is no need for kiting or other out of the box tactics. There is no competition over items or spawn spots in game. Spells/abilities are given automatically at level up. People then ask why I find it less exciting.
Those old games may have been slower paced and trying to keep you playing but there was always a realistic mimicking of the real world where people were competing with great vigor. You even had a realistic market where people would competatively compete to undercut you on certain items. Items also actually had value since there were long spawn times, rare drops, and only one mobile for everyone.
This is the same argument you can have with a faster paced game like Diablo. Why was Diablo 1/2 more fun than Diablo 3? It's because you could kill people, steal things from them, and fight over spawns. Nothing was really safe. This cutthroat environment is the essence of real adventure and excitement because it replicates the excitement that's things aren't really safe and there are no rules to protect you. That is real excitement and adventure IMO.
Advancement vs reward. Games have to have a paying player base or games do not happen and a % of that money has to go to the developing company for it to make it worth while. Unless you find someone like the CU team you is not doing it for money. I personally backed the game knowing I am probably going to hate it but those small group are going to make your niche game that you or I want.
In the beginning there were 3 mmo's (depending on how you count mmo) from there it became a hug business. Now to combat moba, developers have to make progression easier to stay competitive.
MMOs have 2 types of fun: Long term and short term. Short term have been increased a long term decreased which means that the average time a player spends in a MMO is far less today then earlier. MMOs preferably should have both in the right mix, fun enough short term to hook players but not giving out all the fun things too fast either.
The thing is - at least in some the games I've played - far from everyone gets THE trophy.
Take EQ2, which is the MMO I've spent the most time playing. Over the last 10 years, getting to max level has gone from taking weeks to taking a day or two. So people will say "omg, the game is too easy!". But the thing is... getting to max level is not THE TROPHY as you put it. It's not even much of an accomplishment.
What IS an accomplishment is beating the big bad boss of any given expansion. And that, gets done by maybe a couple of hundred people out of thousands upon thousands. If that.
The challenge is there if you look for it.
The response I typically get when I bring this up with people who say "the game is too easy!" is that "well, it's not the challenge i want.. it takes too long, i need to learn how to excel at my character, i have to get proper gear, i have to compete for a spot in a good guild, i have to learn to play with others... it's not the KIND of difficulty i want!!!" So what you're saying then is that when you want the game to be "hard", you just want it to be hard at something you're good at, so that you can do it easily and then make fun of others? That's not really "hard" at all, is it?
I stopped playing MMOs earlier this year, so i don't keep up on the progression, but at one point last year, I had checked the EQ2 progression tracker and out of 200+ guilds that were raiding, less than 10 were even ON the final boss of the game.
I don't pretend to play every game out there, but I imagine that there are plenty of games with similar statistics for challenging content.
The main difference that the last 10-15 years have brought is that instead of it being difficult to learn to play or get to max level, it is now easy. I won't argue with that. But that's also not where the challenge is meant to be. Challenge still exists, it has just moved into places where only those looking for it will go.
Out the games I played - EQ2, FFXIV, TSW and AoC all had excellent and very challenging PVE encounters and mechanics. I don't play any of them anymore (and some not for a while), but there was plenty of challenge. If you're claiming that there's no challenge, the first thing you should ask yourself is whether (and how easily) did you defeat the most difficult encounter in YOUR game. If you haven't, maybe you should try that.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Life IS Feudal
Then you have people going what drought, oh I dunno how about quality over quantity? A big cesspool is still a cesspool of cash shop crap.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I think non consensual pvp is the best kind because you are always on your guard, however most mmorpgs do not do it right because the penalties for killing someone aren't severe enough. Mmorpgs are always about character progression though, so I'm not sure why you want a completely fair enviroment when it contrasts the genre itself. There are plenty of fps/mobas out there for those that want strictly playerskill dependent games. I like the extra element open world pvp games bring and having full loot just means your death was something you cared about; not "oh i'll just just right back into the fight".
There is a difference between "hard hard hard" when its going against a professional competition gamer and surviving game mechanics. Each is a different kind of "hard".
MurderHerd
Someone decided about 15 years ago that all games need to be easier, way easier. And I kinda feel that insulting as well, to me it seems like it is the game devs that think we are simpletons.
Hard is not the same as time consuming. Guildwars for example had plenty of challenging stuff in the beginning (nerfed nowadays) but it wasn't very time consuming.
Also, not all games should be as time consuming as other games, that is like replacing all books with comics. Games should span from fast and casual towards something you do a lot.
In short: Focusing all MMOs on the exact playergroup is not good. Particularly since more and more of that playergroup is moving to mobile gaming and ain't coming back. There might be 3 times as many super casuals as all other player groups together, but they are both the playergroup that stays shortest in the same game and the group that have moved most to other types of games.
Easier is most certainly true and why,i have no idea.I still remember MANY years ago playing RFO,i was thinking to myself,hmmm this player is pretty smart,really knows his stuff,then found out later on he was only 12 years old..lmao.
Point being that game devs do not give kids enough credit,even as young as sub ten year olds are quite computer savvy,smart when comes to figuring out stuff.So i often ask myself,are producers/devs that naive,are they clueless,do they not understand their audience or is there another reason?
I believe it is because of the lazy cheap way they design the games.They want to utilize simple templates and menus so that ALL content can be tied to those two simple mouse clicks.They want every interaction to again point to the same templates,utilizing triggers in the exact same manner so that every quest can be done the same way.The trigger is almost ALWAYS a big yellow "?" over an npc head.
It takes a LOT of work to create different systems,if you had to create a whole new menu system and different trigger types and menus for each quest,the game would never get done.MUCH easier to just have npc waiting for trigger A or B then go to sub program that waits for A or B condition to be met,then triggers again either a reward or to another sub program,but always the same idea over and over.
So there has to be a fine line between SIMPLE easy game design and putting in enough effort into the systems that the game becomes fun and interesting and with lots of choices.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
MMORPGS should be like life, sometimes win, be rewarded, be happy, and sometimes lose and be fustrated, yes, pay to be fustrated, sounds extrange but nobody is accepting the program for more than a few months right now like Smith predicted...
But, but, but he attacked me when I was low life!
Yes, HE DID, why you cant do the same to him?
Uf that will take me a lot of time...
HERE IS YOUR QUEST!
No games, including WoW or EQ were about only rewarding those who completed some extreme marathon. They were however more about time devotion. Their basic premise was to incentivize playing the game and offer few consolation prizes that water down player achievements in general. The more you played, the more you were rewarded. Not just who can play the best, who can create the biggest guild, or who can spend the most in the cash shop.
This was the case in ALL first generation MMORPGs, including AC, UO, DAoC and Meridian 59. There were few easily obtained sprinter prizes, but they all rewarded the people who devoted time above all else.
If you wanted to become notorious and run a city in UO, it took time. If you wanted the most powerful realm rank abilities in DAoC, it took time. Wanted to take down the biggest mobs and get the rarest gear in EQ, it took time. Those incentives are how you keep a virtual world populated, and failing to understand this is why MMOs are floundering.
and oh yes, they certainly are floundering. Those who say otherwise are deluding themselves