No need for perserverence, mmo's are in a drought because 'everyone gets a trophy'

delete5230 · December 2016

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

A lot of arrogant people in this thread... arrogant and insulting, calling random people who may very well be the doctor who will someday save their life names like "simpleton".

Just a hint for them: most people play video games for fun, because they are games, and not because it's a like a second job for them. Or actually, even the only job they have...

I guess it's way more fun to spend 5 hours in a raid and get nothing at all at the end because of bad RNG and because that guildmate had more DKP. Or getting ganked and looted dry as a noob each time you leave town without the slightest chance to fight back. Oh yeah, that was so much fun, so relaxing.

Wow, usually you play the fence to not insult people. That's a quality I wish I had !

In fact both you and I once had a nice little chat about that in private. Sad to say it didn't last very long on my end, I went back to being blunt.....Never the less, I never forgot it, and I'm still working on being better, I'm trying.

Anyway,

I also disagree, limited play time doesn't have to = easy. I've only seen one high stress person that was looking for easy, other than that. NO ONE LIKES EASY, at least that would admit it.

I also disagree, with you statement " you just have to look for it ". Everyone has to play mounds of easy content to find that little bit ?.... come on !

Easy mmos are made to have players chew up content in extremely small games. Its also to get players to pay for expansion's faster, this one is more for older mmos that have many.

In short, no one likes easy, it's forced !

iixviiiix · December 2016

I mostly don't care about trophy or challenge , mostly i care about in MMORPG are long term progression and stress release .

I love to collect shine stuff in all levels , enjoy beating mob with friends , and stand in mountain of loots . And that's why modern MMORPG failed me . With item bind , quests and no shine loot on ground .

Golelorn · December 2016

I don't agree with the author's sentiment that everyone gets a trophy in a MMO.

You have to participate in end game events to earn the best rewards. And any legit MMO is not going to just hand stuff out willy nilly.

The problem is a severe lack of inter-dependency. Most MMOs are solo mode.

Slapshot1188 · December 2016

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

Don't lecture me about difficulty, I was playing UO 20 years ago, and sorry... most of it wasn't difficult, is was frustrating and time wasting. like the famous "leave town and get ganked by someone you have no chance to defend yourself against". You were a noob with little possessions, now you are a naked noob with no possessions at all. The ganker didn't win anything except that he ruined the game for you. So much fun.

Sorry you had such a bad experience in UO. Some of us actually loved it, and yes I thought the danger added a wonderful edge to the game.

Not all games are for all people and it's obvious that open world PvP ones are not meant for you.

Lukooone · December 2016

... and then they completely ruin the game, just in that precise moment, in Trammel creation...

The sheeps were safe and bored, the wolves were double bored, the UO world became boredom in a few months... everyone leaved...

I remember it very well.

Lukooone · December 2016

No, Jean-Luc, I played UO since it was created(atlantic server) and I assure you, please believe me, that Trammel was the end of populated UO in like 3 months, boredom take all over the game....

Lukooone · December 2016

Trammel is like the perfect example of whats happening to the mmorpg genre, you do it safe, you do it that everyone, winner and loser gets rewarded, the populations go up for a few months and then get stagnant and die because we humans like the most the things that take us effort to get.

What is the most populated mmorpg, wow? like 7 mill customers... For god shake LoL or even clash of clans multiply it by 10 at the least... Genre is almost dead... Please open your eyes...

Slapshot1188 · December 2016

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

Don't lecture me about difficulty, I was playing UO 20 years ago, and sorry... most of it wasn't difficult, is was frustrating and time wasting. like the famous "leave town and get ganked by someone you have no chance to defend yourself against". You were a noob with little possessions, now you are a naked noob with no possessions at all. The ganker didn't win anything except that he ruined the game for you. So much fun.

Sorry you had such a bad experience in UO. Some of us actually loved it, and yes I thought the danger added a wonderful edge to the game.

Not all games are for all people and it's obvious that open world PvP ones are not meant for you.

I invite you to read everything before answering, that would stop you from making wrong assumptions. I've played UO a long time, but I'm able to acknowledge its flaws. And apparently, so did the developers, since they patched in Trammel in a hurry to save the game as soon as alternatives without forced PvP (EQ and AC1) were released.

Which assumption above was wrong? You disliked the original full open world PvP rollout of Ultima online. Thats fine. You are allowed to like other types of games. I and others LOVED it and thought it added much to the game play.

Slapshot1188 · December 2016

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

Lukooone said:

... and then they completely ruin the game, just in that moment, in Trammel creation...

I guess that's why the game recovered from players leaving and had its highest population after trammel was added, right ? And I guess it was ruined so badly that it managed to still be online nowadays, 20 years after its release. Sounds like an awfully ruined game to me, indeed.
The game was possibly "ruined" for the small minority of sociopaths who only enjoy games when they can use them to ruin other player's experience, but for the vast majority, Trammel was a major improvement.

This is what we call projecting your thoughts and feelings onto others.

Slapshot1188 · December 2016

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

Lukooone said:

... and then they completely ruin the game, just in that moment, in Trammel creation...

I guess that's why the game recovered from players leaving and had its highest population after trammel was added, right ? And I guess it was ruined so badly that it managed to still be online nowadays, 20 years after its release. Sounds like an awfully ruined game to me, indeed.
The game was possibly "ruined" for the small minority of sociopaths who only enjoy games when they can use them to ruin other player's experience, but for the vast majority, Trammel was a major improvement.

This is what we call projecting your thoughts and feelings onto others.

This is what people call FACTS. Because that's what really happened. The numbers are available all over the net, just check yourself, this way you can't accuse me of being biased.

FACTS? OK please link to me the FACT that players who like open world PvP are "psychopaths". I'll be waiting for such a finely researched FACT. You use that word, but I do not think it means what YOU think it means...

Slapshot1188 · December 2016

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

UO peak population: 2003, during Age of Shadows. That's 3 years AFTER Trammel was released. That's a fact, not just wishful thinking. Seems to me that Trammel didn't ruin the game like some pretend it did, but actually allowed it to survive and thrive.

Facts > Belief. Always.

Please re-read my question which is copied below for ease of viewing:

FACTS? OK please link to me the FACT that players who like open world PvP are "psychopaths". I'll be waiting for such a finely researched FACT. You use that word, but I do not think it means what YOU think it means...

arieste · December 2016

Slapshot1188 said:

Please re-read my question which is copied below for ease of viewing:

FACTS? OK please link to me the FACT that players who like open world PvP are "psychopaths". I'll be waiting for such a finely researched FACT. You use that word, but I do not think it means what YOU think it means...

I'm not invested enough in this argument to go do your googling for you, but honestly, if you're truly curious about this and nor just trolling, this is a fairly easy point to research yourself:

Log into the open world PvP MMO of your choice. Go out unarmed and uhm.. collect flowers or something. The ask the first 5 people that kill you, whether they feel any remorse or empathy about the action. If you feel that 5 aren't enough critical mass, do it a hundred times, or a thousand. Then report back, I'd be fascinated to hear your findings.

Slapshot1188 · December 2016

arieste said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Please re-read my question which is copied below for ease of viewing:

FACTS? OK please link to me the FACT that players who like open world PvP are "psychopaths". I'll be waiting for such a finely researched FACT. You use that word, but I do not think it means what YOU think it means...

I'm not invested enough in this argument to go do your googling for you, but honestly, if you're truly curious about this and nor just trolling, this is a fairly easy point to research yourself:

Log into the open world PvP MMO of your choice. Go out unarmed and uhm.. collect flowers or something. The ask the first 5 people that kill you, whether they feel any remorse or empathy about the action. If you feel that 5 aren't enough critical mass, do it a hundred times, or a thousand. Then report back, I'd be fascinated to hear your findings.

Because someone would not feel remorse for playing a game and using his/her avatar to kill yours makes them a psychopath? Man... everyone that plays chess or checkers needs help pretty badly then.

Rather I would simply say that in my OPINION (not trying to spout as fact), anyone who feels like an attack on their pixel character is an attack on a real person should go see a shrink.

Slapshot1188 · December 2016

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

UO peak population: 2003, during Age of Shadows. That's 3 years AFTER Trammel was released. That's a fact, not just wishful thinking. Seems to me that Trammel didn't ruin the game like some pretend it did, but actually allowed it to survive and thrive.

Facts > Belief. Always.

Please re-read my question which is copied below for ease of viewing:

FACTS? OK please link to me the FACT that players who like open world PvP are "psychopaths". I'll be waiting for such a finely researched FACT. You use that word, but I do not think it means what YOU think it means...

Ok, then link me to where I called open world PvP players "psychopaths" in this thread. Because I didn't. Yeah, a minority of PvP players, some of which I've called "sociopaths", are denying the reality that UO was more successful with optional PvP than with forced PvP.

You're now trying to digress on details to try to make the reader forget the fact that you were wrong. Nice try, but you failed. Just like Felucca failed and Trammel saved the game.

I think most folks here can read your prior statement for themselves and decide just how wrong you are, and how you used the word "psychopaths".

Anyhow, have a GREAT day and please do stay away from open world PvP games. Games should be fun and it;s obvious this mechanic causes you stress. Just avoid such triggers in the future.

* I'm not an actual pcychiatrist so keep that in mind

Flyte27 · December 2016

Lukooone said:

"You know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world where noone suffered, where everyone is happy? That was a dissaster, no one accepted the program..." - Agent Smith, Matrix.

MMORPGS should be like life, sometimes win, be rewarded, be happy, and sometimes lose and be fustrated, yes, pay to be fustrated, sounds extrange but nobody is accepting the program for more than a few months right now like Smith predicted...

This is how I feel. I'm not a huge fan of PvP but I miss the way people had both positive and negative effects on each there. Playing in a safe environment with no competition can get pretty stale no matter how much content you provide. Everyone getting along in a safe bubble with very restrictive abilities makes for a boring game. That's the opposite of what is trying to be accomplished in an adventure game.

ApexTKM · December 2016

MMO's have changed since the early days of its genre. When this genre wasn't as popular it felt like a special genre like no other game, now it feels like every other game so some people have moved on from the genre and decided since mmos feel like regular games now mine as well just start playing regular games. What made mmos special compared to other genres is gone, well mostly.

Slapshot1188 · December 2016

Flyte27 said:

Lukooone said:

"You know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world where noone suffered, where everyone is happy? That was a dissaster, no one accepted the program..." - Agent Smith, Matrix.

MMORPGS should be like life, sometimes win, be rewarded, be happy, and sometimes lose and be fustrated, yes, pay to be fustrated, sounds extrange but nobody is accepting the program for more than a few months right now like Smith predicted...

This is how I feel. I'm not a huge fan of PvP but I miss the way people had both positive and negative effects on each there. Playing in a safe environment with no competition can get pretty stale no matter how much content you provide. Everyone getting along in a safe bubble with very restrictive abilities makes for a boring game. That's the opposite of what is trying to be accomplished in an adventure game.

I think there can and should be both types of games.

Slapshot1188 · December 2016

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

Slapshot1188 said:

I think most folks here can read your prior statement for themselves and decide just how wrong you are, and how you used the word "psychopaths".

That's very funny. I gave you a second chance, and you missed it. I never used the word "Psychopaths".
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black... maybe you should apply your advice about reading to yourself?

OK you got me! You said Sociopaths. That TOTALLY changes the argument... oh.. that's right...no it doesn't.

VengeSunsoar · December 2016

He also didn't say that liking PvP made you a sociopath. He called the people that like to ruin others fun a sociopath. There is a difference between those two statements.

eddieg50 · December 2016

I don't know, I never thought there was anything wrong with the Third place finisher getting a ribbon long as the First place finisher won the Trophy

Slapshot1188 · December 2016

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

Flyte27 said:

Lukooone said:

"You know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world where noone suffered, where everyone is happy? That was a dissaster, no one accepted the program..." - Agent Smith, Matrix.

MMORPGS should be like life, sometimes win, be rewarded, be happy, and sometimes lose and be fustrated, yes, pay to be fustrated, sounds extrange but nobody is accepting the program for more than a few months right now like Smith predicted...

This is how I feel. I'm not a huge fan of PvP but I miss the way people had both positive and negative effects on each there. Playing in a safe environment with no competition can get pretty stale no matter how much content you provide. Everyone getting along in a safe bubble with very restrictive abilities makes for a boring game. That's the opposite of what is trying to be accomplished in an adventure game.

The problem is very few PvP MMORPGs managed to get the consequences for being a total asshat right. EvE did it, somehow, but artificially, with safe zones (or rather, "safer" zones). Systems like UO has, and other games like Darkfall tried to duplicate, are always exploited and therefore useless.
The attitude of some posters show why it's very hard to get open world PvP right: those people just think that because it's a video game, the person behind the keyboard doesn't matter, and it's just pixels in a game. That's why you have to have strong in game mechanisms to stop abusive behavior. You can't allow a single aspect of the game, which happens to be the strongest player to player interaction possible, to take over your whole game if you are designing a MMORPG. That's good for FPS like Quake or Overwatch, but not for games with so many activities like a MMORPG.

You make yet another false assumption. You link the fact that it's a video game to being unable to realize there are other players. That's silly. I feel no more remorse for "killing" your pixels than I would attacking your Queen in chess. When people cannot make that differentiation between their game piece and themselves I believe THEY have the problem. In my opinion it's sick to think that because someone has "killed your pixel"(which by the way simply means you re spawn 40 seconds away or lost some pixel goods usually) you have somehow been personally attacked by sociopaths. But as I said, if this is a triggering event for someone they should simply avoid it. There are literally hundreds of safe space games out there. Find your home and enjoy. Games should be fun. If your getting stressed about a game you are definitely doing it wrong.

As for mechanisms:
I love open world pvp.
I also advocate for strong penalties for things like dying. This makes the risk of initiating combat much higher.

arieste · December 2016

Slapshot1188 said:

arieste said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Please re-read my question which is copied below for ease of viewing:

FACTS? OK please link to me the FACT that players who like open world PvP are "psychopaths". I'll be waiting for such a finely researched FACT. You use that word, but I do not think it means what YOU think it means...

I'm not invested enough in this argument to go do your googling for you, but honestly, if you're truly curious about this and nor just trolling, this is a fairly easy point to research yourself:

Log into the open world PvP MMO of your choice. Go out unarmed and uhm.. collect flowers or something. The ask the first 5 people that kill you, whether they feel any remorse or empathy about the action. If you feel that 5 aren't enough critical mass, do it a hundred times, or a thousand. Then report back, I'd be fascinated to hear your findings.

Because someone would not feel remorse for playing a game and using his/her avatar to kill yours makes them a psychopath? Man... everyone that plays chess or checkers needs help pretty badly then.

Rather I would simply say that in my OPINION (not trying to spout as fact), anyone who feels like an attack on their pixel character is an attack on a real person should go see a shrink.

A lack of empathy or understanding of how the person you're interacting with feels as a result of your interaction with them is EXACTLY what defines psychopathic behaviour, yes.

An attack on a pixel character is not the same as an attack on a real person. But there are still quite often feelings involved, the fact that you seem to lack any comprehension of this only goes to prove the very point you're trying to argue against.

Cecropia · December 2016

arieste said:

Slapshot1188 said:

arieste said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Please re-read my question which is copied below for ease of viewing:

FACTS? OK please link to me the FACT that players who like open world PvP are "psychopaths". I'll be waiting for such a finely researched FACT. You use that word, but I do not think it means what YOU think it means...

I'm not invested enough in this argument to go do your googling for you, but honestly, if you're truly curious about this and nor just trolling, this is a fairly easy point to research yourself:

Log into the open world PvP MMO of your choice. Go out unarmed and uhm.. collect flowers or something. The ask the first 5 people that kill you, whether they feel any remorse or empathy about the action. If you feel that 5 aren't enough critical mass, do it a hundred times, or a thousand. Then report back, I'd be fascinated to hear your findings.

Because someone would not feel remorse for playing a game and using his/her avatar to kill yours makes them a psychopath? Man... everyone that plays chess or checkers needs help pretty badly then.

Rather I would simply say that in my OPINION (not trying to spout as fact), anyone who feels like an attack on their pixel character is an attack on a real person should go see a shrink.

A lack of empathy or understanding of how the person you're interacting with feels as a result of your interaction with them is EXACTLY what defines psychopathic behaviour, yes.

An attack on a pixel character is not the same as an attack on a real person. But there are still quite often feelings involved, the fact that you seem to lack any comprehension of this only goes to prove the very point you're trying to argue against.

If someone's "feelings" get hurt from interactions in a fucking video game I'd say they have some very serious issues to work out for themselves.

Slapshot1188 · December 2016

arieste said:

Slapshot1188 said:

arieste said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Please re-read my question which is copied below for ease of viewing:

FACTS? OK please link to me the FACT that players who like open world PvP are "psychopaths". I'll be waiting for such a finely researched FACT. You use that word, but I do not think it means what YOU think it means...

I'm not invested enough in this argument to go do your googling for you, but honestly, if you're truly curious about this and nor just trolling, this is a fairly easy point to research yourself:

Log into the open world PvP MMO of your choice. Go out unarmed and uhm.. collect flowers or something. The ask the first 5 people that kill you, whether they feel any remorse or empathy about the action. If you feel that 5 aren't enough critical mass, do it a hundred times, or a thousand. Then report back, I'd be fascinated to hear your findings.

Because someone would not feel remorse for playing a game and using his/her avatar to kill yours makes them a psychopath? Man... everyone that plays chess or checkers needs help pretty badly then.

Rather I would simply say that in my OPINION (not trying to spout as fact), anyone who feels like an attack on their pixel character is an attack on a real person should go see a shrink.

A lack of empathy or understanding of how the person you're interacting with feels as a result of your interaction with them is EXACTLY what defines psychopathic behaviour, yes.

An attack on a pixel character is not the same as an attack on a real person. But there are still quite often feelings involved, the fact that you seem to lack any comprehension of this only goes to prove the very point you're trying to argue against.

No... I would argue that the fact that you feel like part of the game (PvP) being used on your game piece.. is in some way something that hurts your feelings says a ton about YOU.

It's a GAME. The same as chess, checkers, monopoly. IMHO If you personally identify with your game piece YOU need to re-evaluate your involvement.

Not all games have open world PvP. There are literally HUNDREDS of safe space games with no chance of getting your game piece killed by another player. To join a game that has open world PvP as part of the game, and then complain that your feelings are hurt when someone takes your pixel pieces is just silly IMHO.

Slapshot1188 · December 2016

Cecropia said:

arieste said:

Slapshot1188 said:

arieste said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Please re-read my question which is copied below for ease of viewing:

FACTS? OK please link to me the FACT that players who like open world PvP are "psychopaths". I'll be waiting for such a finely researched FACT. You use that word, but I do not think it means what YOU think it means...

I'm not invested enough in this argument to go do your googling for you, but honestly, if you're truly curious about this and nor just trolling, this is a fairly easy point to research yourself:

Log into the open world PvP MMO of your choice. Go out unarmed and uhm.. collect flowers or something. The ask the first 5 people that kill you, whether they feel any remorse or empathy about the action. If you feel that 5 aren't enough critical mass, do it a hundred times, or a thousand. Then report back, I'd be fascinated to hear your findings.

Because someone would not feel remorse for playing a game and using his/her avatar to kill yours makes them a psychopath? Man... everyone that plays chess or checkers needs help pretty badly then.

Rather I would simply say that in my OPINION (not trying to spout as fact), anyone who feels like an attack on their pixel character is an attack on a real person should go see a shrink.

A lack of empathy or understanding of how the person you're interacting with feels as a result of your interaction with them is EXACTLY what defines psychopathic behaviour, yes.

An attack on a pixel character is not the same as an attack on a real person. But there are still quite often feelings involved, the fact that you seem to lack any comprehension of this only goes to prove the very point you're trying to argue against.

If someone's "feelings" get hurt from interactions in a fucking video game I'd say they have some very serious issues to work out for themselves.

BINGO.

But the best part is that these games are totally OPTIONAL. You have to buy one, knowing full well that it contains open world PvP. To then complain about it is just... bizarre.

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No need for perserverence, mmo's are in a drought because 'everyone gets a trophy'

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No need for perserverence, mmo's are in a drought because 'everyone gets a trophy'

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