Please re-read my question which is copied below for ease of viewing:
FACTS? OK please link to me the FACT that players who like open world PvP are "psychopaths". I'll be waiting for such a finely researched FACT. You use that word, but I do not think it means what YOU think it means...
I'm not invested enough in this argument to go do your googling for you, but honestly, if you're truly curious about this and nor just trolling, this is a fairly easy point to research yourself:
Log into the open world PvP MMO of your choice. Go out unarmed and uhm.. collect flowers or something. The ask the first 5 people that kill you, whether they feel any remorse or empathy about the action. If you feel that 5 aren't enough critical mass, do it a hundred times, or a thousand. Then report back, I'd be fascinated to hear your findings.
Because someone would not feel remorse for playing a game and using his/her avatar to kill yours makes them a psychopath? Man... everyone that plays chess or checkers needs help pretty badly then.
Rather I would simply say that in my OPINION (not trying to spout as fact), anyone who feels like an attack on their pixel character is an attack on a real person should go see a shrink.
A lack of empathy or understanding of how the person you're interacting with feels as a result of your interaction with them is EXACTLY what defines psychopathic behaviour, yes.
An attack on a pixel character is not the same as an attack on a real person. But there are still quite often feelings involved, the fact that you seem to lack any comprehension of this only goes to prove the very point you're trying to argue against.
He's simply using exactly the same excuse all griefers/gankers in PvP MMOs are using. He's not even original. He (conveniently) forgets some very simple facts... at chess, both players have an equal chance at defending their queen, there's no XP grind involved to make your pieces stronger, it's only brain versus brain. There's a major difference between taking someone's queen at chess and repeatedly ganking some noob at the graveyard in a MMORPG. One is just the natural continuation of the game, the other is a display of a total lack of empathy towards the person behind the keyboard controlling the other character which has zero chances of fighting back.
The difference between a fighter (gamer) and a sadist.
And amusingly, you then have the same people whining that there are no more PvP MMORPGs, not realizing they are the main cause of the failure of that type of games.
That is actually a hysterical attempt at Deflection (as well as straw man red herrings like "ganking newbs in a graveyard). If I were to enter a chess tournament with skilled players I would get wrecked. I wouldn't then proceed to be mad at the other player for taking my pieces and crying that it wasn't fair. I wouldn't call the other player a sociopath who didn't think about how I would feel when he took all my pieces. I would simply NOT HAVE ENTERED THE TOURNAMENT.
You know what I do when some guy in an MMO kills me a few times and I don't have an alternate spawn? I log out for 30 minutes. OMG.. what an amazing concept!!!
As mentioned many, many times: There are countless safe space zero PvP games available. Simply play one. Simply avoid games that have a mechanic that causes you stress. If you are frequently getting stressed about what some other player is doing in a game you really need to find a different game to play.
It really IS that simple.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Please re-read my question which is copied below for ease of viewing:
FACTS? OK please link to me the FACT that players who like open world PvP are "psychopaths". I'll be waiting for such a finely researched FACT. You use that word, but I do not think it means what YOU think it means...
I'm not invested enough in this argument to go do your googling for you, but honestly, if you're truly curious about this and nor just trolling, this is a fairly easy point to research yourself:
Log into the open world PvP MMO of your choice. Go out unarmed and uhm.. collect flowers or something. The ask the first 5 people that kill you, whether they feel any remorse or empathy about the action. If you feel that 5 aren't enough critical mass, do it a hundred times, or a thousand. Then report back, I'd be fascinated to hear your findings.
Because someone would not feel remorse for playing a game and using his/her avatar to kill yours makes them a psychopath? Man... everyone that plays chess or checkers needs help pretty badly then.
Rather I would simply say that in my OPINION (not trying to spout as fact), anyone who feels like an attack on their pixel character is an attack on a real person should go see a shrink.
A lack of empathy or understanding of how the person you're interacting with feels as a result of your interaction with them is EXACTLY what defines psychopathic behaviour, yes.
An attack on a pixel character is not the same as an attack on a real person. But there are still quite often feelings involved, the fact that you seem to lack any comprehension of this only goes to prove the very point you're trying to argue against.
He's simply using exactly the same excuse all griefers/gankers in PvP MMOs are using. He's not even original. He (conveniently) forgets some very simple facts... at chess, both players have an equal chance at defending their queen, there's no XP grind involved to make your pieces stronger, it's only brain versus brain. There's a major difference between taking someone's queen at chess and repeatedly ganking some noob at the graveyard in a MMORPG. One is just the natural continuation of the game, the other is a display of a total lack of empathy towards the person behind the keyboard controlling the other character which has zero chances of fighting back.
The difference between a fighter (gamer) and a sadist.
And amusingly, you then have the same people whining that there are no more PvP MMORPGs, not realizing they are the main cause of the failure of that type of games.
That is actually a hysterical attempt at Deflection (as well as straw man red herrings like "ganking newbs in a graveyard). If I were to enter a chess tournament with skilled players I would get wrecked. I wouldn't then proceed to be mad at the other player for taking my pieces and crying that it wasn't fair. I wouldn't call the other player a sociopath who didn't think about how I would feel when he took all my pieces. I would simply NOT HAVE ENTERED THE TOURNAMENT.
You know what I do when some guy in an MMO kills me a few times and I don't have an alternate spawn? I log out for 30 minutes. OMG.. what an amazing concept!!!
As mentioned many, many times: There are countless safe space zero PvP games available. Simply play one. Simply avoid games that have a mechanic that causes you stress. If you are frequently getting stressed about what some other player is doing in a game you really need to find a different game to play.
It really IS that simple.
I think people are too empathetic these days. This is a video game. It is a game where we gonna on adventures and kill monsters people. If we are going to be empathetic then we might as well not have the game. It's about killing, stealing, robbing, etc.. The whole purpose of an adventure is to go into a dangerous place with people you can't trust. There is a lot of amoral behavior and people. This is medieval times we are often replicating. There was racism, sexism, thievery, killing, and many immoral people trying to survive and indulge their whims. This is something people can'take do in real life unless they have no empathy and want to go to jail. If you are going to say it's not fun or exciting I would have to disagree. Many stories throughout history have been based on such changes things. Humans crave these things because they create a huge rush of emotion happy or angry. It's a rush you don't, get when playing it safe and being nice in a controlled environment.
Its very sad to me, I cant believe that almost 20 years late some old mmorpg gamers still dont see that Trammel was the worst idea ever...
I suppose there is no solution, the genre is stagnant and bleeding daily players to moba or mobile market, almost no AAA titles in development because of themeparking, giving rewards in a plate for smashing keyboard, catering to casual and getting players into a bubble where other players cannot interact with them except in a consensual mode.
I suppose we get what we deserved as community, boooooring themeparks but ok, the day it changes the day I will return to some title, meanwhile LoL and Overwatch are the funniest things around... Even if they are like 100 million of sociopaths players killing each other every minute...
This is medieval times we are often replicating. There was racism, sexism, thievery, killing, and many immoral people trying to survive and indulge their whims.
A good point used badly. In medieval times, if you ran around randomly killing people, you ended very dead, without judgment or anything civilized. They caught you, they killed you. Permanently. Like... you were dead forever, no extra life, no rezzing at the graveyard. That's pretty much why, even at medieval times, people weren't running around mindlessly killing each other for no other reason than because they could.
Actually killin thieving, and backstabbing was quite prevalent in believe. Not only that but you had blackmailing, bullying, and harassment. It's part of why the Knights were sent off on the crusades. They were bad knights who were given a cause to get them away. The peasants had no power so they were usually stuck being used as manual labor in all societies. Education as poor and people acted more like animals many times in the lower class. There was no trust so being ready to backstab was a means of survival. Getting away with stealing may have had a heavy penalty, but when you consider there was little means to prove theft and life wasn't good for many it was worth the risk. People like to change history to suite their cause. Light now people are trying to warp things to make it seem like it didn'the happen. Even today there are thieves, bullies, and muderers who do it just for thexample rush because of the high risks. They don't care if people are hurt. The point is this is a virtual world and people do enjoy the rush. They can enjoy that rush guilt free in a game because no one is really hurt. Emotional hurt can be argued but in the end it's kind of silly and a by product of modern day society. People are hurt because they feel they have the right not to be taunted or bullied in any way. Growing up for me I was bullied a lot and learned to survive. It was often much worse as if was both physical and mental bullying for me. Society today teaches kids they deserve to be treated with respect no matter what. It is a very strange time period. None the less we should be able to act like real humans in a fantasy game. We are just animals after all.
I remember doing Heriocs in NGE SWG. At the end of the dungeon 1 or two things would drop and we would roll for them. If that happened in a game to day people's heads would blow apart from the radioactive unfairness.
I remember having player rules set for drops in lineage 2. When I was in a dungeon party and we found a drop, everyone would place a bid, and if nobody had enough for what the item was at least worth, the trusted person would sell the item overnight (you could do this since nothing was "bound") and split the funds among the group. This required taking notes of who was in the party and what the sell price was.
Now adays, can you even trade between players? (didn't bdo block player trading?) Things just never stop getting worse. Just when I think it can't get any worse or more bad, somehow developers manage to find a way.
Wait, so you're saying that in the old games everyone got a trophy too, just like in modern games. They either got the trophy then or sold it and divvied the proceeds.
Case solved. Old games handed out trophies to everyone too. Just like we all already knew because we were there getting them and sharing the loot.
... not sure if you are that dense or trolling.
In old game like lineage 2,
A 9man group would be pve for 10-15 hours everyday and be lucky to see 1 drop out of the week. This drop (trophy?) was worth a lot on the market because not everyone could get it, and it gave major stat boosts to help in pvp and pve. To get this drop(trophy?), you had to either spend months gathering mats for a 60% chance to craft it, or be in one of the top end clans who were farming the end game raid bosses that spawn once every 2 weeks (where the item would drop 2-4x which wasn't much considering you needed 100's of players to do it).
In each server I would say there was a max of 20 boss jewelry (for each type of boss jewelry), and over 2 million players to fight/bargain/buy/pvp over it. Then you had enchanted weapons. For many months I held the highest mage weapon (+5 arcana mace), I saw 6 people on server with +4 arcana mace, about 30% had +0-3 arcana mace, the other 70% didn't even have s grade weapons (too hard to get). It wasn't even until 2 updates later (1yr later), I saw someone with a +6 arcana mace.
In modern games,
you don't even need a group to get best gear. They just hand the trophy (through regular monsters or bosses within 10 minutes) to you without having to put any time, organization, and strategy into getting it. All you need to do is throw money at the game (cash shop p2w) or be able to press two buttons. Not very fun!
But if you mean trophy like an achievement,
Older games didn't even have trophy's then. You're trophy/achievement was being able to do something that only 10% of the players could ever do; hit max level, take down epic raid boss, get over enchanted top gear, get boss jewelry, be in a clan that owns a castle, 1v9 a party who comes to gank you, finding a way to level quicker than anyone else ect... All of these achievements (trophies) were so rare that the server would recognize you for them, and you had an impact on the story and history of the server. That was your trophy.
What the heck are you talking about. Plenty of modern korean f2p grinders have exactly what you want.
I grinded 12 hours a day for a couple of year and can't make to the top of server.
Lineage2 isn't like that because it's old game. It's like that because it's korean.
I'm surprised that with as much experience as you all have with MMO's that you cannot separate difficulty from tedium. Let's say you created a game like EQ1 today.... no quest markers... week long spawns.... non instanced dungeons; it would flop... HARD. Why? Because people are soft, stupid or entitled? No.... we just don't have 12 hours a day to sit at a dungeon spawn for a chance at loot or get calls in the middle of the night because a dragon spawned.
Why would we even want to compete with those that can?
Why would a developer create content for 10% or less of the player base?
The idea that EQ1 or Lineage2 were examples of what an MMORPG *should* be is nuts. They were not hard; they were tedious. The people that excelled at them were people with literally no life.
"Let's make MMORPGs shitty again" (instead of easy)
In this annoying effort to take all potentially negative emotions out of mmo gaming, companies have removed competition, challenge, and pretty much all sense of failure. I know some people love auto-pathing, fast travel (from anywhere), group finder, raid finder, ETC... these features are all designed lower the goal post so that you don't risk experiencing any kind of frustration.
World pvp... don't get me started. Dropping an item when you die, we can't have that now since you are carrying "SUPER RARES" that you got in raid finder and having to do that again might take a day or so.
Talent trees, either so overly balanced that you're just re-skinning a total of 12 abilities throughout different classes, or so narrow you only have 2 options and don't take any planning at all.
Leveling up? You get this glorious sparkle fart over your head and amazing music because you auto-pathed from 1 npc to another and clicked on them, sometimes the auto-pathing clicks them for you when you get there. It used to be that you actually learned the layout of the city you were in because there might be pvp there....
I love challenging games. I don't really like twitch combat, or muscle memory battles, more strategy and execution type stuff. I liked the original vanilla WoW raids where most guilds couldn't down the gatekeeper boss and you had to try to find a really competent group. They've since made raids super accessible with raid-finder (I'm aware of hard difficulty that you can do with your guild but it's really just watered down monthly until everyone gets that trophy too)
I loved in Aion learning where updrafts were in the wind so I could come in and out of world pvp and surprise gank / escape, and other people who didn't take the time to learn the environment couldn't stay with me. (They made it impossible to perma-rift now)
In Lineage 2 you could gank friendlies, but if you did so you were exposed to dropping items when killed.
I guess I'm just asking for a game that will hand you a cold dish of shit soup if your bad, and encourage you to get better-In all aspects... leveling, pvp, raiding. Make you actually do some work for that glorious sparkle-fart. I just can't get into games anymore because I feel like I'm either in an auto-pilot game, or a mad dash to the finish line to play this mysterious end game everyone is complaining about-and looking at other people of my class that made it there all wearing identical end-game items that were ' ' SO HARD ' ' to get.
Wow was an anomaly and it's success ruined the niche industry that was MMO games. Yes it has a WAY bigger audience than any of the others ever thought about, but every other game genre has plenty of games coming out: Racing, Shooter, Survival, RPG (except they've done this whole line of crap to elder scrolls too, that's for a different thread). Have racing games gotten easier? Have shooters gotten easier? Did they add auto-aim so you don't miss and get frustrated? Does the racing game let you switch cars with the winner so you don't have to lose?
Look at Darkfall... it's like the opposite club. Hard hard hard. It's a dichotomy, either I play my little ponies in the main stream MMO production line, or a bitter painful game that punishes defeat to the fullest. I do enjoy darkfall because of the challenge, but I think there's room in the industry for some middle ground.
I just downloaded Everquest project 1999 and set it up and im actually have more fun over the last 2 days then the last few years in the fancy newer games I played EQ ages ago for a good amount of time and the funny thing is im discovering new things on a daily basis still that i didnt know when i use to play the original EQ.
I actually highly recommend every to give the game a shot atleast play for a week or two it gives you a new perspective on things ive probaly died more times in the last 2 days than i would getting to max level in any of the other current games haha. My favorite death was im a necromancer and i saw a necro npc walking round so i ran up to Hail him and he turns around and practically instant killes me for my insolence of talking to him lol. Did not see that coming and actualy made me laugh for a good 5 minutes
Here easy set up video for anyone who bored of the newer games and wanna try something a little more on the older side trust me you will be confused on what to do if you totally new to this game but stick with it ask around for help you'll be fine you atleast find somethings interesting
No, the problem nowadays is that games try to cater to all audiences and fail doing so.
Those that try to cater to specific audiences, release with barely any content.
Don't confuse breadth of content with depth of content. What I am saying is that some games should focus on a limited set of features but make them DEEP and full. Many, if not most of today's games are chock full of "features" but they are very shallow or ill fit.
You can have a GREAT PvE only game. Absolutely no reason to try and tack on some sort of lame PvP just to check a box. Similarly you can have a really deep, tactical, open world PvP game based around territory control without needing to tack on some sort of "battleground" area.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
No, the problem nowadays is that games try to cater to all audiences and fail doing so.
Those that try to cater to specific audiences, release with barely any content.
Don't confuse breadth of content with depth of content. What I am saying is that some games should focus on a limited set of features but make them DEEP and full. Many, if not most of today's games are chock full of "features" but they are very shallow or ill fit.
You can have a GREAT PvE only game. Absolutely no reason to try and tack on some sort of lame PvP just to check a box. Similarly you can have a really deep, tactical, open world PvP game based around territory control without needing to tack on some sort of "battleground" area.
Well that is exactly my point.
They lack content.
Let's mention BDO for example. It has numerous side activities that all ultimately revolve around getting money while endgame is quite lacking. Horse breeding could be expanded to having horse races with tournaments etc etc. Hunting could be expanded to hunt rare beasts/dragons/whatever not only whales (And some specific rare spawn bosses).
These are great features that lack depth.
PVP games also do this. I know titanfall is not an mmo but let me say something. That game (The first one) got rid of the single player section to focus on the multiplayer pvp version only. Essentially focusing on pvp only. The result was barely any maps and or game modes.
You can't simply remove something then add nothing in return.
Many companies keep insisting that pvp games don't need other activities. It doesn't have to be dungeons or whatever, but you can't keep expecting the people playing the game to make the content for you. That's why many games fail. They lack a longevity scope.
Isn't it great? Careful you don't kill anyone too many times in PvP, or you'll get banned for "bullying!" And don't show off that epic gear either because you might "offend" someone!!!
"We are all as God made us, and many of us much worse." - Don Quixote
I just downloaded Everquest project 1999 and set it up and im actually have more fun over the last 2 days then the last few years in the fancy newer games I played EQ ages ago for a good amount of time and the funny thing is im discovering new things on a daily basis still that i didnt know when i use to play the original EQ.
I actually highly recommend every to give the game a shot atleast play for a week or two it gives you a new perspective on things ive probaly died more times in the last 2 days than i would getting to max level in any of the other current games haha. My favorite death was im a necromancer and i saw a necro npc walking round so i ran up to Hail him and he turns around and practically instant killes me for my insolence of talking to him lol. Did not see that coming and actualy made me laugh for a good 5 minutes
Here easy set up video for anyone who bored of the newer games and wanna try something a little more on the older side trust me you will be confused on what to do if you totally new to this game but stick with it ask around for help you'll be fine you atleast find somethings interesting
You should have been there when the server was new. It was really great when most people were still leveling up their first character and the server wasn't filled with power levelers and ridiculously twinked out alts.
The leveling up part is still kind of fun but the problem is that everything turns to crap at the endgame. Everquest always had the worst endgame and on P99 it's problems are only magnified. And when this realization sinks in it sorta kills your motivation to level up, because---what's the point?
If someone could/would make a game with the feel of EQ during the leveling up phase and then somehow maintain that type of gameplay at the endgame instead of it devolving into a crapfest raid grind I'd be very happy.
I have to say the Elder Scrolls Online is a fairly good game. I didn't like it when I first tried it, but I've been trying various different MMOs recently and it's been improved a lot. It's more like the single player Skyrim experience now. It also has a lot of options for each class. You can make each one into healer, DPS, or CC, or Tank. You can also choose a specific tree like the Nightblade Siphon tree and make a Necromancer or Shadow Knight out of it. I guess the main thing is not to worry about the class names to much. I almost wish there were no classes and they just had the various class skill trees available to everyone on the same character. The names are a bit misleading to what they can actually become. The has fun combat and a slow level progression. The exploration is fairly good. The only thing missing is fun utility spells like bind soul, speed increase, levitation, and water breathing.
I just downloaded Everquest project 1999 and set it up and im actually have more fun over the last 2 days then the last few years in the fancy newer games I played EQ ages ago for a good amount of time and the funny thing is im discovering new things on a daily basis still that i didnt know when i use to play the original EQ.
I actually highly recommend every to give the game a shot atleast play for a week or two it gives you a new perspective on things ive probaly died more times in the last 2 days than i would getting to max level in any of the other current games haha. My favorite death was im a necromancer and i saw a necro npc walking round so i ran up to Hail him and he turns around and practically instant killes me for my insolence of talking to him lol. Did not see that coming and actualy made me laugh for a good 5 minutes
Here easy set up video for anyone who bored of the newer games and wanna try something a little more on the older side trust me you will be confused on what to do if you totally new to this game but stick with it ask around for help you'll be fine you atleast find somethings interesting
You should have been there when the server was new. It was really great when most people were still leveling up their first character and the server wasn't filled with power levelers and ridiculously twinked out alts.
The leveling up part is still kind of fun but the problem is that everything turns to crap at the endgame. Everquest always had the worst endgame and on P99 it's problems are only magnified. And when this realization sinks in it sorta kills your motivation to level up, because---what's the point?
If someone could/would make a game with the feel of EQ during the leveling up phase and then somehow maintain that type of gameplay at the endgame instead of it devolving into a crapfest raid grind I'd be very happy.
I agree about endgame. I never played endgame in EQ. Some people enjoyed it a lot. I never really needed to worry much about endgame though as the level progression was really slow and you could often buy raid level items from other people who raided and didn't need the items. Since leveling was basically farming loot to sell anyway I often collected a lot of money. The Giant Hill was a great place to get gold.
I think the problem is everyone like different things. There was post about people naming their top 3 favorite mmorpg, and the answers are all diffirent.
And the whole ideal about making one mmorpg everyone can enjoy just isn't there. People complaining about UO trammel is an example. Why is that people that don't even like non-consensual pvp need to play in Felucca just so other people can enjoy is a wierd concept.
There was some guy who made an indepth analysis about making sandbox game more mainstream by easing new players and more safe zone. But he forget the main point. If I don't like non consensual pvp, I just go play another game.
I just downloaded Everquest project 1999 and set it up and im actually have more fun over the last 2 days then the last few years in the fancy newer games I played EQ ages ago for a good amount of time and the funny thing is im discovering new things on a daily basis still that i didnt know when i use to play the original EQ.
I actually highly recommend every to give the game a shot atleast play for a week or two it gives you a new perspective on things ive probaly died more times in the last 2 days than i would getting to max level in any of the other current games haha. My favorite death was im a necromancer and i saw a necro npc walking round so i ran up to Hail him and he turns around and practically instant killes me for my insolence of talking to him lol. Did not see that coming and actualy made me laugh for a good 5 minutes
Here easy set up video for anyone who bored of the newer games and wanna try something a little more on the older side trust me you will be confused on what to do if you totally new to this game but stick with it ask around for help you'll be fine you atleast find somethings interesting
You should have been there when the server was new. It was really great when most people were still leveling up their first character and the server wasn't filled with power levelers and ridiculously twinked out alts.
The leveling up part is still kind of fun but the problem is that everything turns to crap at the endgame. Everquest always had the worst endgame and on P99 it's problems are only magnified. And when this realization sinks in it sorta kills your motivation to level up, because---what's the point?
If someone could/would make a game with the feel of EQ during the leveling up phase and then somehow maintain that type of gameplay at the endgame instead of it devolving into a crapfest raid grind I'd be very happy.
EQ did maintain that feel of gameplay during raiding. It was just more limited. The game was filled with ways to progress your character via groups. It wasn't meant to offer that to everyone for raids, because that aspect was meant to be rare and exclusive so as to not trivialize everything else.
Those things were by design, and it was great. It just sucks on P99 because 75% of the people playing there are raiders, whereas probably around 10% were raiders on any live server during that era. That is the problem. That and the total mudflation making everything in the game super easy. They need new servers, because the current ones are no longer fun.
I was playing LotRO when the Isengard expansion went live. Level cap was raised for that expansion from 60 to 70. 12 hrs after the expansion was released, I saw people in Moria at level 70.
How do you develop with that in mind? Throttle all players so they require minimum a month? Scale combat so it takes ten minutes to kill trash mobs?Or do you step away from that player group and see how long the masses took to level cap and develop the next expansion with that in mind?
Some of us have been playing MMO's for near 20 years now. Devs should not look at me and say, "yea, this is the guy I want to template my game on". Most people don't play an MMO 30+ hrs a week. When I immerse, that's my average. Does that mean games are easy for me and I should piss an moan like a selfish asshat? No, it means I have a lifestyle that is not remotely connected to mainstream and I can suck it up when I feel like the anomaly I am.
long story short, it aint always about you, buttercup.
I'm surprised that with as much experience as you all have with MMO's that you cannot separate difficulty from tedium. Let's say you created a game like EQ1 today.... no quest markers... week long spawns.... non instanced dungeons; it would flop... HARD. Why? Because people are soft, stupid or entitled? No.... we just don't have 12 hours a day to sit at a dungeon spawn for a chance at loot or get calls in the middle of the night because a dragon spawned.
Why would we even want to compete with those that can?
Why would a developer create content for 10% or less of the player base?
The idea that EQ1 or Lineage2 were examples of what an MMORPG *should* be is nuts. They were not hard; they were tedious. The people that excelled at them were people with literally no life.
"Let's make MMORPGs shitty again" (instead of easy)
How about we move forward with game design?
Yes, make every game something that can reveal all of its depth in the 28 minutes of game time you get before you watch TV, or some other activity that is essentially just to entertain you. Make sure every game is fair, that nothing unexpected or inconvenient happens, and make sure that you make an old style MMO with these features and call it "new."
I'm sure most people could have the time to play if they wanted to, but they do a hundred other things and bitch about game time.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
It's a GAME. The same as chess, checkers, monopoly. IMHO If you personally identify with your game piece YOU need to re-evaluate your involvement.
It's a game, but UNLIKE chess, checkers and monopoly, it's Role-Playing Game. And this where our opinion vastly differs, in that mine is that if you choose to take on a role of character living in a persistent world and then you DON'T personally identify with that character in some way, there is probably something wrong with YOU.
I don't believe either one of us are psychiatrists or are qualified to answer this question though. A quick google search led me to this article, which cites some actual research in Empathy as it pertains fictional characters (in this example, film ones, but if anything, roles played by ourselves are even MORE closer than those played by other people). https://www.wheretowatch.com/2013/07/the-psychology-of-character-bonding-why-we-feel-a-real-connection-to-actors
So yeah, empathy towards a fictional character is completely normal. I would expect even moreso toward one you're playing. The fact that you don't get that or (I assume) feel any probably explains your inability to understand it in others.
You're welcome to produce any research your google-fu can conjure up that asserts that having a connection and "actual feelings" relating to a fictional character and its fate is somehow irregular. I'd be fascinated to read it.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
It's a GAME. The same as chess, checkers, monopoly. IMHO If you personally identify with your game piece YOU need to re-evaluate your involvement.
It's a game, but UNLIKE chess, checkers and monopoly, it's Role-Playing Game. And this where our opinion vastly differs, in that mine is that if you choose to take on a role of character living in a persistent world and then you DON'T personally identify with that character in some way, there is probably something wrong with YOU.
So what your absurd argument means, is that an actor, playing a ROLE... say... Darth Vader... should feel bad for the actor, playing a role... say... Captain Needa for Force Choking him to death?
That's utterly absurd.
But even moving BEYOND that... in order to even have been killed in a PvP game you must have made a conscious choice to play such a game. There are literally hundreds of games where you can play in 100% safe spaces and never, ever have to worry about having your pixels killed. If having your pixel character killed is a trigger for someone they should simple not play a game like that. It's like someone choosing to play football and then complaining that the bad and "mean guys" on the other team keep tackling him and not apologizing. UTTERLY ABSURD.
Seems like a very simple concept to me.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It's a GAME. The same as chess, checkers, monopoly. IMHO If you personally identify with your game piece YOU need to re-evaluate your involvement.
It's a game, but UNLIKE chess, checkers and monopoly, it's Role-Playing Game. And this where our opinion vastly differs, in that mine is that if you choose to take on a role of character living in a persistent world and then you DON'T personally identify with that character in some way, there is probably something wrong with YOU.
So what your absurd argument means, is that an actor, playing a ROLE... say... Darth Vader... should feel bad for the actor, playing a role... say... Captain Needa for Force Choking him to death?
That's utterly absurd.
But even moving BEYOND that... in order to even have been killed in a PvP game you must have made a conscious choice to play such a game. There are literally hundreds of games where you can play in 100% safe spaces and never, ever have to worry about having your pixels killed. If having your pixel character killed is a trigger for someone they should simple not play a game like that. It's like someone choosing to play football and then complaining that the bad and "mean guys" on the other team keep tackling him and not apologizing. UTTERLY ABSURD.
Seems like a very simple concept to me.
That's kind of the way society is going it seems. I'm not sure if it's good or bad, but it provides for less interesting entertainment. It's fun to watch bad things happen if no one is really getting hurt. This was proven by the entertainment we were given in the 70s, 80s, and 90s that included porn and violent movies/cartoons that it's likely children shouldn't have been seeing watching. Now we are at the opposite end of the spectrum. Hockey and other sports have had a lot of the violence taken out of them. I still remember when elbowing someone in the head or crosschecking them repeatedly in the back was something that was allowed. Bench brawls were a pretty common thing. That is not the case anymore. I think part of it is because we now live in a society where females/intellectuals are dominant. Violence is now frowned on. It also allows females to compete on a more even level in sports. When I was young we used to fight all the time and were left to police ourselves. We played dirty as it was the way you survived and it was accepted. Now everything is supervised by parents and kids are taught to be polite drones that respect everyone. That is good and bad to both sides, but one thing that can't be argued I think is that violence and sex is more of an entertainment stimulant than say watching people studying, doing something empathetic, or watching something like Jeopardy. Weather it is healthy or not is another matter. I believe part of this culture was ingrained in society for a long time because of past wars and the effect they have on the behavior of humans. It is also a result of abuse of power causing fear in people. I'm certain such things as violence, what I watched on TV as a kid, and the way adults behaved in front of me had an impact on what I enjoy and don't enjoy. I'm used to a society of backstabbing and violence. I know how to survive in that society. I'm not used to a society of empathy and don't get much enjoyment out of it.
Comments
You know what I do when some guy in an MMO kills me a few times and I don't have an alternate spawn? I log out for 30 minutes. OMG.. what an amazing concept!!!
As mentioned many, many times: There are countless safe space zero PvP games available. Simply play one. Simply avoid games that have a mechanic that causes you stress. If you are frequently getting stressed about what some other player is doing in a game you really need to find a different game to play.
It really IS that simple.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Chess would be associated with battlegrounds not open world pvp. When you play chess, you are fully aware you'll be confronting someone else.
I suppose there is no solution, the genre is stagnant and bleeding daily players to moba or mobile market, almost no AAA titles in development because of themeparking, giving rewards in a plate for smashing keyboard, catering to casual and getting players into a bubble where other players cannot interact with them except in a consensual mode.
I suppose we get what we deserved as community, boooooring themeparks but ok, the day it changes the day I will return to some title, meanwhile LoL and Overwatch are the funniest things around... Even if they are like 100 million of sociopaths players killing each other every minute...
But, but, but he attacked me when I was low life!
Yes, HE DID, why you cant do the same to him?
Uf that will take me a lot of time...
HERE IS YOUR QUEST!
I grinded 12 hours a day for a couple of year and can't make to the top of server.
Lineage2 isn't like that because it's old game. It's like that because it's korean.
Why would we even want to compete with those that can?
Why would a developer create content for 10% or less of the player base?
The idea that EQ1 or Lineage2 were examples of what an MMORPG *should* be is nuts. They were not hard; they were tedious. The people that excelled at them were people with literally no life.
"Let's make MMORPGs shitty again" (instead of easy)
How about we move forward with game design?
the downfall today is that too many games try to be all things to all people instead of focusing.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Those that try to cater to specific audiences, release with barely any content.
I played EQ ages ago for a good amount of time and the funny thing is im discovering new things on a daily basis still that i didnt know when i use to play the original EQ.
I actually highly recommend every to give the game a shot atleast play for a week or two
My favorite death was im a necromancer and i saw a necro npc walking round so i ran up to Hail him and he turns around and practically instant killes me for my insolence of talking to him lol. Did not see that coming and actualy made me laugh for a good 5 minutes
Here easy set up video for anyone who bored of the newer games and wanna try something a little more on the older side
You can have a GREAT PvE only game. Absolutely no reason to try and tack on some sort of lame PvP just to check a box. Similarly you can have a really deep, tactical, open world PvP game based around territory control without needing to tack on some sort of "battleground" area.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
They lack content.
Let's mention BDO for example. It has numerous side activities that all ultimately revolve around getting money while endgame is quite lacking. Horse breeding could be expanded to having horse races with tournaments etc etc. Hunting could be expanded to hunt rare beasts/dragons/whatever not only whales (And some specific rare spawn bosses).
These are great features that lack depth.
PVP games also do this. I know titanfall is not an mmo but let me say something. That game (The first one) got rid of the single player section to focus on the multiplayer pvp version only. Essentially focusing on pvp only. The result was barely any maps and or game modes.
You can't simply remove something then add nothing in return.
Many companies keep insisting that pvp games don't need other activities. It doesn't have to be dungeons or whatever, but you can't keep expecting the people playing the game to make the content for you. That's why many games fail. They lack a longevity scope.
You should have been there when the server was new. It was really great when most people were still leveling up their first character and the server wasn't filled with power levelers and ridiculously twinked out alts.
The leveling up part is still kind of fun but the problem is that everything turns to crap at the endgame. Everquest always had the worst endgame and on P99 it's problems are only magnified. And when this realization sinks in it sorta kills your motivation to level up, because---what's the point?
If someone could/would make a game with the feel of EQ during the leveling up phase and then somehow maintain that type of gameplay at the endgame instead of it devolving into a crapfest raid grind I'd be very happy.
And the whole ideal about making one mmorpg everyone can enjoy just isn't there. People complaining about UO trammel is an example. Why is that people that don't even like non-consensual pvp need to play in Felucca just so other people can enjoy is a wierd concept.
There was some guy who made an indepth analysis about making sandbox game more mainstream by easing new players and more safe zone. But he forget the main point. If I don't like non consensual pvp, I just go play another game.
Those things were by design, and it was great. It just sucks on P99 because 75% of the people playing there are raiders, whereas probably around 10% were raiders on any live server during that era. That is the problem. That and the total mudflation making everything in the game super easy. They need new servers, because the current ones are no longer fun.
How do you develop with that in mind? Throttle all players so they require minimum a month? Scale combat so it takes ten minutes to kill trash mobs?Or do you step away from that player group and see how long the masses took to level cap and develop the next expansion with that in mind?
Some of us have been playing MMO's for near 20 years now. Devs should not look at me and say, "yea, this is the guy I want to template my game on". Most people don't play an MMO 30+ hrs a week. When I immerse, that's my average. Does that mean games are easy for me and I should piss an moan like a selfish asshat? No, it means I have a lifestyle that is not remotely connected to mainstream and I can suck it up when I feel like the anomaly I am.
long story short, it aint always about you, buttercup.
I'm sure most people could have the time to play if they wanted to, but they do a hundred other things and bitch about game time.
I don't believe either one of us are psychiatrists or are qualified to answer this question though. A quick google search led me to this article, which cites some actual research in Empathy as it pertains fictional characters (in this example, film ones, but if anything, roles played by ourselves are even MORE closer than those played by other people). https://www.wheretowatch.com/2013/07/the-psychology-of-character-bonding-why-we-feel-a-real-connection-to-actors
So yeah, empathy towards a fictional character is completely normal. I would expect even moreso toward one you're playing. The fact that you don't get that or (I assume) feel any probably explains your inability to understand it in others.
You're welcome to produce any research your google-fu can conjure up that asserts that having a connection and "actual feelings" relating to a fictional character and its fate is somehow irregular. I'd be fascinated to read it.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
That's utterly absurd.
But even moving BEYOND that... in order to even have been killed in a PvP game you must have made a conscious choice to play such a game. There are literally hundreds of games where you can play in 100% safe spaces and never, ever have to worry about having your pixels killed. If having your pixel character killed is a trigger for someone they should simple not play a game like that. It's like someone choosing to play football and then complaining that the bad and "mean guys" on the other team keep tackling him and not apologizing. UTTERLY ABSURD.
Seems like a very simple concept to me.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018