Refund Drama

rpmcmurphy · January 2017

This company and its community never lets up.

Synopsis: Guy joins discord, sees an arbitrary notice saying game accounts will be banned if spoilers for Rogue One are posted in chat (LOL), calls out the mods on such an idiotic rule, gets into a handbag fight, gets upset, cries for a refund and documents the convoluted refund process (due to both sides being silly).

Quite an entertaining read if you have 20 mins to spare.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aUhjuL8wbK680vH7q7IONO_GAUe9pc4q-kNVxuhIUtA/edit
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5n8xh5/the_saga_that_was_my_customer_support_ticket/

Wizardry · January 2017

Well if they have not seen Rogue one yet they don't care that much for the movie anyhow.Secondly ,i found the movie to be very ho hum average,so no damage done either way.

Even still this operation by Robert's was never an up n up operation,this was always an operation to leech money of of all kinds of people from naive to just plain dumb.

In all honestly the whole ordeal and not just with this game but ALL crowd funded games could be solved if people would THINK a little bit.I will help them think.

1 Chris Roberts already has tons of money,by HIS own acclamation,so why did he come out asking gamer's for money?
2 If YOU or Chris truly believe in him,then WHY could you not wait,let him build the game with his own money and own investors?
3 If you were too dumb to figure out 1&2 then you should at least be smart enough to know,you GAVE him FREE money,don't come crying later wanting your money back.

Before you try and think too quickly about 1&2,he touted this as a game he could build for 6 million,he most certainly could EASILY do that on his own and THEN add to the game AFTER he PROVES he can at least get something done with quality.Yes he tried to pull the wool over our eyes by making claims about "YOUR money goes a lot further than if i had to get investors" about 2-3x further.Well 100+ million x2 is 200+ million,does ANYONE honestly believe this guy is competent,within a budget?Of course not and that is why he could not do this with investors looking over his back,he would spend all their money and have little to show.

Vaultarn · January 2017

Wow! I have backed SC, did it with eyes wide open. Happy with the way things are going. Don't think CR is incompetent at all. No guns were held to peoples heads to make them back SC.

Kefo · January 2017

Lol complete account closure if you post a rogue 1 spoiler. Yeah CIG aren't abusing that TOS, not at all.

Kunai_Vax · January 2017

Wizardry said:

Well if they have not seen Rogue one yet they don't care that much for the movie anyhow.Secondly ,i found the movie to be very ho hum average,so no damage done either way.

Even still this operation by Robert's was never an up n up operation,this was always an operation to leech money of of all kinds of people from naive to just plain dumb.

In all honestly the whole ordeal and not just with this game but ALL crowd funded games could be solved if people would THINK a little bit.I will help them think.

1 Chris Roberts already has tons of money,by HIS own acclamation,so why did he come out asking gamer's for money?
2 If YOU or Chris truly believe in him,then WHY could you not wait,let him build the game with his own money and own investors?
3 If you were too dumb to figure out 1&2 then you should at least be smart enough to know,you GAVE him FREE money,don't come crying later wanting your money back.

Before you try and think too quickly about 1&2,he touted this as a game he could build for 6 million,he most certainly could EASILY do that on his own and THEN add to the game AFTER he PROVES he can at least get something done with quality.Yes he tried to pull the wool over our eyes by making claims about "YOUR money goes a lot further than if i had to get investors" about 2-3x further.Well 100+ million x2 is 200+ million,does ANYONE honestly believe this guy is competent,within a budget?Of course not and that is why he could not do this with investors looking over his back,he would spend all their money and have little to show.

I dont follow this game much, but i didnt realise he claimed he could make it for 6 mill O.o
You make some very good points though.
I backed Crowfall when it was on KS and was disapointed just weeks later when they changed a core mechanic they were advertising when they wanted my money. I wasnt mad (they did give me the option of selling back my package on a 3rd party website) but i was disapointed, and i doubt ill ever back another game on KS again. They also claimed the game would be ready to ship internationally on or before december 2016..

so i assume people cant be held accountable for their statements when running a KS ?

Loke666 · January 2017

Honestly, paying for a game to get made and then demanding a refund before the game is released seems stupid to me. Calling forum mods idiots does not seem that smart either.

I don't really think movie spoilers is a good reason to ban someone from a forum myself but that is no reason to not discuss it like adults. In any case will any civil poster write "spoiler" before posting it and if you keep reading after that it is your own fault.
But that is not really the problem here, you don't call forum mods idiots, that is just being rude. If you think they suck just skip the forum and wait for the game to release, or at least just read the news and skip the posting. There are plenty of other places you can discuss the game, like here.

rpmcmurphy · January 2017

This isn't about banning people from foums over a spoiler, it is about complete account closure, as in you are banned from the game as well as everything else.

Asm0deus · January 2017

Lmao...let me see, some guy had a melt down and wanted a "partial" refund.. basically wanted to take back money but keep all his backer rewards because some mod was a douche made threats that amount to abuse of mods powers.

Think I am gonna take some and leave some on this one.

Kefo · January 2017

Asm0deus said:

Lmao...let me see, some guy had a melt down and wanted a "partial" refund.. basically wanted to take back money but keep all his backer rewards because some mod was a douche made treats that amount to abuse of mods powers.

Think I am gonna take some and leave some on this one.

The mod wasn't abusing his powers since this came from Will who is the director of player relations to nuke any game account that posts a rogue 1 spoiler. The guy acted like a dick but that's not really the point now is it? The point is that CIG are very willing to ban your entire account, not just from the forums but from the game, if you do something they don't like.

Posting SQ42 spoilers I can see them taking action but posting a movie spoiler? Most mods just ban you from the discord channel.

dsmart · January 2017

Yeah, it's amazing that they're still punishing backers for stuff outside the project. I cover this in my latest Star Citizen update which went live this morning.

Asm0deus · January 2017

Kefo said:

Asm0deus said:

Lmao...let me see, some guy had a melt down and wanted a "partial" refund.. basically wanted to take back money but keep all his backer rewards because some mod was a douche made treats that amount to abuse of mods powers.

Think I am gonna take some and leave some on this one.

The mod wasn't abusing his powers since this came from Will who is the director of player relations to nuke any game account that posts a rogue 1 spoiler. The guy acted like a dick but that's not really the point now is it? The point is that CIG are very willing to ban your entire account, not just from the forums but from the game, if you do something they don't like.

Posting SQ42 spoilers I can see them taking action but posting a movie spoiler? Most mods just ban you from the discord channel.

From what I read in the OP the mod was made to apologize for his behavoir? and OP was given a full refund?

The drama seems centered around OP wanting a "partial" refund.

Distopia · January 2017

rpmcmurphy said:

This isn't about banning people from foums over a spoiler, it is about complete account closure, as in you are banned from the game as well as everything else.

It's more about a person trying to dictate what rules one can enforce, and then losing the fight they picked... then the sour grapes come into play. Wouldn't it be easier to just not post a Rogue 1 spoiler and go on with your day?

Talonsin · January 2017

Loke666 said:

Honestly, paying for a game to get made and then demanding a refund before the game is released seems stupid to me. Calling forum mods idiots does not seem that smart either.

I agree with you in the overall picture but some people backed this project in 2012 and were told it would have Co-OP and be done in 2 years. They were told stretch goals would not delay release. They were told Star Marine would release in 2015. They were told all money would be spent on game development and not wasted by publishers then saw $20,000 space doors and $10,000 coffee machines added to the office.

I see no reason why early backers should not be entitled to a refund giving what was said in 2012 and 2013 and how much things have changed since then.

tawess · January 2017

And this is why humor.. especially dark one.. Does not work on the internet.

But to be fair i see nothing out of the ordinary here.

Sure the joke about bans was in poor taste but we all make those at one point or another.

Beyond that it is pretty much standard A1 customer service stuff.

Phaserlight · January 2017

Asm0deus said:
Kefo said:
Asm0deus said:
Lmao...let me see, some guy had a melt down and wanted a "partial" refund.. basically wanted to take back money but keep all his backer rewards because some mod was a douche made treats that amount to abuse of mods powers.

Think I am gonna take some and leave some on this one.

The mod wasn't abusing his powers since this came from Will who is the director of player relations to nuke any game account that posts a rogue 1 spoiler. The guy acted like a dick but that's not really the point now is it? The point is that CIG are very willing to ban your entire account, not just from the forums but from the game, if you do something they don't like.

Posting SQ42 spoilers I can see them taking action but posting a movie spoiler? Most mods just ban you from the discord channel.
From what I read in the OP the mod was made to apologize for his behavoir? and OP was given a full refund?

The drama seems centered around OP wanting a "partial" refund.

I have very little empathy toward someone who has invested $600+ in the promise of future digital spaceships. As Hunter S. Thompson indeed put it: "No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride".

Distopia said:

It's more about a person trying to dictate what rules one can enforce, and then losing the fight they picked... then the sour grapes come into play. Wouldn't it be easier to just not post a Rogue 1 spoiler and go on with your day?

Yes... but: "No Rogue 1 Spoilers (or else! we really mean it!)" is so lol-worthy on many levels. This is amplified by the decision of the moderator(?) to put that it is "a director approved decision".

Look, we know Chris is a Star Wars fan and all...

...it just makes it look like a skewed sense of priorities, which is not something a late, over-budget project needs.

Distopia · January 2017

Phaserlight said:

Asm0deus said:
Kefo said:
Asm0deus said:
Lmao...let me see, some guy had a melt down and wanted a "partial" refund.. basically wanted to take back money but keep all his backer rewards because some mod was a douche made treats that amount to abuse of mods powers.

Think I am gonna take some and leave some on this one.

The mod wasn't abusing his powers since this came from Will who is the director of player relations to nuke any game account that posts a rogue 1 spoiler. The guy acted like a dick but that's not really the point now is it? The point is that CIG are very willing to ban your entire account, not just from the forums but from the game, if you do something they don't like.

Posting SQ42 spoilers I can see them taking action but posting a movie spoiler? Most mods just ban you from the discord channel.
From what I read in the OP the mod was made to apologize for his behavoir? and OP was given a full refund?

The drama seems centered around OP wanting a "partial" refund.
I have very little empathy toward someone who has invested $600+ in the promise of future digital spaceships. As Hunter S. Thompson indeed put it: "No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride".

Distopia said:

It's more about a person trying to dictate what rules one can enforce, and then losing the fight they picked... then the sour grapes come into play. Wouldn't it be easier to just not post a Rogue 1 spoiler and go on with your day?

Yes... but: "No Rogue 1 Spoilers (or else! we really mean it!)" is so lol-worthy on many levels. This is amplified by the decision of the moderator(?) to put that it is "a director approved decision".

Look, we know Chris is a Star Wars fan and all...

...it just makes it look like a skewed sense of priorities, which is not something a late, over-budget project needs.

I never said it wasn't a stupid or silly rule, still your HST quote works here as well. "Buy the ticket, take the ride."

Phaserlight · January 2017

Distopia said:

Phaserlight said:

Asm0deus said:
Kefo said:
Asm0deus said:
Lmao...let me see, some guy had a melt down and wanted a "partial" refund.. basically wanted to take back money but keep all his backer rewards because some mod was a douche made treats that amount to abuse of mods powers.

Think I am gonna take some and leave some on this one.

The mod wasn't abusing his powers since this came from Will who is the director of player relations to nuke any game account that posts a rogue 1 spoiler. The guy acted like a dick but that's not really the point now is it? The point is that CIG are very willing to ban your entire account, not just from the forums but from the game, if you do something they don't like.

Posting SQ42 spoilers I can see them taking action but posting a movie spoiler? Most mods just ban you from the discord channel.
From what I read in the OP the mod was made to apologize for his behavoir? and OP was given a full refund?

The drama seems centered around OP wanting a "partial" refund.
I have very little empathy toward someone who has invested $600+ in the promise of future digital spaceships. As Hunter S. Thompson indeed put it: "No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride".

Distopia said:

It's more about a person trying to dictate what rules one can enforce, and then losing the fight they picked... then the sour grapes come into play. Wouldn't it be easier to just not post a Rogue 1 spoiler and go on with your day?

Yes... but: "No Rogue 1 Spoilers (or else! we really mean it!)" is so lol-worthy on many levels. This is amplified by the decision of the moderator(?) to put that it is "a director approved decision".

Look, we know Chris is a Star Wars fan and all...

...it just makes it look like a skewed sense of priorities, which is not something a late, over-budget project needs.

I never said it wasn't a stupid or silly rule, still your HST quote works here as well. "Buy the ticket, take the ride."

I agree. There was nothing out of the ordinary about CIG exercising authority; it's just that there is something darkly and inherently comical about a social network that austerely enforces authoritarian rules with little ostensible connection toward stated goals. This was what I think "BrawlinBadger" maybe subconsciously picked up and was riffing on, which eventually landed him in trouble with an authority figure and ultimately resulted in him being granted a full refund (unfortunate to CIG).

As a former teacher and a current volunteer moderator, I can see how there was ham-handedness and aggression from both sides. It was poorly handled, and probably indicative of some underlying issues.

The Earth keeps turning.

tawess · January 2017

To be fair.... I am sure they did not think that anyone would actually take it seriously... After all it is a so absurd idea.

Now let me flip this on it´s head....

BrawlingBadger was just after the refund.. or more specific... te partial refund... so he/she choose to read the thing by the letter in order to manufacture a claim on said refund.

That is to be honest a much more reasonable explanation.

Erillion · January 2017

Talonsin said:

I agree with you in the overall picture but some people backed this project in 2012 and were told it would have Co-OP

--> Still in. Just not in a way that SOME people expected for Squadron 42. You will be able to do co-op in the simpod simulator for all the missions you have completed in SQ42. No one ever claimed that you can do all SQ42 missions in co-op. And IMHO doing a co-op mission in a story mode single player game is ... a bad idea.

--> Co-op in the Persistent Universe is possible ... no change there.

and be done in 2 years.

--> Revised soon after Kickstarter when Stretch Goals went far beyond the initial scope. The 2 year estimate was only valid for the project as presented at the beginning of the Kickstarter campaign.

They were told stretch goals would not delay release.

--> True - a wrong estimate in the early days. Soon corrected when CIG realized how BIG the crowdfunding campaign was and how large they can go with such support. Too optimistic estimates in the early days.

They were told Star Marine would release in 2015.

--> And were told in 2015 soon after that there will be a delay due to problems with the first iteration of Star Marine (which was developed by an external company).

They were told all money would be spent on game development and not wasted by publishers then saw $20,000 space doors

--> Which - according to the devs - was self made and has only cost a few hundred dollars. It uses a motor with the brand name of a company that offers such doors for 20.000 $ IF you buy them. Which some people from certain .. groups ... changed into the claim that the door has cost 20 k$.

and $10,000 coffee machines added to the office.

--> Which - for all we know - could be a leased machine. Which costs much less. No one knows. Professional coffee machines for large throughputs usually cost that amount of money.

--> Personally i think free coffee and good coffee machines are some of the best things an employer can offer to his employees. Increases productivity significantly.

I see no reason why early backers should not be entitled to a refund

--> They got refunds without problems for 3 years.

--> They still get refunds these days ... its just requires a bit more effort than before.

giving what was said in 2012 and 2013 and how much things have changed since then.

--> And people had 3 years time to make up their mind if this project is the right project for them.

--> Have fun

CrazKanuk · January 2017

This is so true. It's absurd to think that there could be a spoiler given for Rogue One. You know all those characters? Where are they in subsequent Star Wars movies? Ohhhh yeah!! They're all dead! Also, SHOCKER!!! They were successful getting the Death Star plans. Sorry to ruin the surprise for anyone who hadn't already seen the original Star Wars movie.

Talonsin · January 2017

Erillion said:

Talonsin said:

I agree with you in the overall picture but some people backed this project in 2012 and were told it would have Co-OP

--> Still in. Just not in a way that SOME people expected for Squadron 42. You will be able to do co-op in the simpod simulator for all the missions you have completed in SQ42. No one ever claimed that you can do all SQ42 missions in co-op. And IMHO doing a co-op mission in a story mode single player game is ... a bad idea.

*** I am so glad that you think Co-OP is a bad idea. Apparently Chris Roberts thought it was a great idea when he said your friends could drop in and help you in a mission or even play the enemies in SQ42. I dont know what that means to you but to me, it means my friend can join in when I want or need him to. Nice try though...

and be done in 2 years.

--> Revised soon after Kickstarter when Stretch Goals went far beyond the initial scope. The 2 year estimate was only valid for the project as presented at the beginning of the Kickstarter campaign.

*** You are such a word artist. Can you please link me the exact statement when Chris said the game would no longer be ready in 2014? I would like to see what this "soon after kickstarter" means because it was YEARS after kickstarter. I guess in Chris Roberts reality that 3 years is "soon after" and being a devoted fan, you have to use word play to make it seems like that works.

They were told stretch goals would not delay release.

--> True - a wrong estimate in the early days. Soon corrected when CIG realized how BIG the crowdfunding campaign was and how large they can go with such support. Too optimistic estimates in the early days.

*** Again, you make it seem like it was a single time and no big thing. Chris said this over and over again in 2012, 2013 and even in the beginning of 2014.

They were told Star Marine would release in 2015.

--> And were told in 2015 soon after that there will be a delay due to problems with the first iteration of Star Marine (which was developed by an external company).

*** So all of 2015, we are shown video after video of SM gameplay and then told "weeks not months or years" and then suddenly they found a problem that would delay it for more than a year? That's funny because Chris said in the beginning of 2016 that SM was in there. If it was in there, what is this delay you are speaking of? Was Chris lying in January of 2016 or were they lying in 2015? you cant have both.

They were told all money would be spent on game development and not wasted by publishers then saw $20,000 space doors

--> Which - according to the devs - was self made and has only cost a few hundred dollars. It uses a motor with the brand name of a company that offers such doors for 20.000 $ IF you buy them. Which some people from certain .. groups ... changed into the claim that the door has cost 20 k$.

*** Which we all know is a lie. The Stanley Access logo is clearly shown in the inside corner of the door. I can not believe you can continue to promote this lie. Are you really such a devoted fan that you can just ignore facts?

and $10,000 coffee machines added to the office.

--> Which - for all we know - could be a leased machine. Which costs much less. No one knows. Professional coffee machines for large throughputs usually cost that amount of money.

--> Personally i think free coffee and good coffee machines are some of the best things an employer can offer to his employees. Increases productivity significantly.

*** LOL, this is so silly I cant even comment

I see no reason why early backers should not be entitled to a refund

--> They got refunds without problems for 3 years.

--> They still get refunds these days ... its just requires a bit more effort than before.

giving what was said in 2012 and 2013 and how much things have changed since then.

--> And people had 3 years time to make up their mind if this project is the right project for them.

*** Still towing the party line? Up until end of 2015 when the no refund policy was put in place, we were still being told the game would be launching soon, SM was weeks away and everything was great. THEN the no refund policy, THEN the SM is in there crap and then they started their policy of no longer giving dates for anything beyond broad statements like "SQ42 end of 2016" which they still could not even hit.

--> Have fun

Elsabolts · January 2017

I've always been told that refunds come and go but Swiss bank accounts live forever.

CrazKanuk · January 2017

Elsabolts said:

I've always been told that refunds come and go but Swiss bank accounts live forever.

Swiss bank accounts might be dated, I think it's more Cayman Islands today, no?

Shodanas · January 2017

Distopia said:

rpmcmurphy said:

This isn't about banning people from foums over a spoiler, it is about complete account closure, as in you are banned from the game as well as everything else.

It's more about a person trying to dictate what rules one can enforce, and then losing the fight they picked... then the sour grapes come into play. Wouldn't it be easier to just not post a Rogue 1 spoiler and go on with your day?

Oh, he absolutely intended to pick a fight. If you happen to witness what transpired you would see that the guy wanted to make a fuss. Not about the no spoiler rule of course. This was just the excuse.

When no negative news about SC are about some individuals, one of them posted here as well, create them.

rpmcmurphy · January 2017

Shodanas said:

Distopia said:

rpmcmurphy said:

This isn't about banning people from foums over a spoiler, it is about complete account closure, as in you are banned from the game as well as everything else.

It's more about a person trying to dictate what rules one can enforce, and then losing the fight they picked... then the sour grapes come into play. Wouldn't it be easier to just not post a Rogue 1 spoiler and go on with your day?

Oh, he absolutely intended to pick a fight. If you happen to witness what transpired you would see that the guy wanted to make a fuss. Not about the no spoiler rule of course. This was just the excuse.

When no negative news about SC are about some individuals, one of them posted here as well, create them.

Haha, I like how even if one states "...gets into a handbag fight, gets upset, cries for a refund..." it's still classed as creating negative news. Seems to me you missed the bit where it's poking fun at both sides of the story.

What is clear however is that you just wanted to ignore that so you could have a little shout about the mean "disgruntled backers" always picking on your game...

CrazKanuk · January 2017

rpmcmurphy said:

Shodanas said:

Distopia said:

rpmcmurphy said:

This isn't about banning people from foums over a spoiler, it is about complete account closure, as in you are banned from the game as well as everything else.

It's more about a person trying to dictate what rules one can enforce, and then losing the fight they picked... then the sour grapes come into play. Wouldn't it be easier to just not post a Rogue 1 spoiler and go on with your day?

Oh, he absolutely intended to pick a fight. If you happen to witness what transpired you would see that the guy wanted to make a fuss. Not about the no spoiler rule of course. This was just the excuse.

When no negative news about SC are about some individuals, one of them posted here as well, create them.

Haha, I like how even if one states "...gets into a handbag fight, gets upset, cries for a refund..." it's still classed as creating negative news. Seems to me you missed the bit where it's poking fun at both sides of the story.

What is clear however is that you just wanted to ignore that so you could have a little shout about the mean "disgruntled peeps backers" always picking on your game...

Fixed it! I am a firm believer that the disgruntled backers aren't really the ones who "pick" on the game. Actually, I find they mostly have intelligent arguments, probably because they'd genuinely like to see the game released and have valid concerns about things like priorities, features, etc.

I think those who actively seek to destroy the game probably aren't backers at all. Of course there are exceptions to every rules, I just feel that's probably more the case, including accounts from people here who have openly admitted they don't back the game.

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