You say a lot of things that I agree with in your post.
One thing that makes me wonder though. When you say its the new MMOs, then how come that a lot of the people, who say "google it" in public chat channels, very often are people who are basically just living in those channels, rather than playing the game?
If you read my first post you will get your answer.
I am generally a chatty person, and even when I am busy I keep an eye at the chat and if there is something worth a reply I will throw a one liner, because I can't resist. Most of the time it will be sarcastic remarks as they are the shortest and most efficient way of communication, not the most popular though, in particular if you are at the receiving end. If I play a more relaxed game though, I have more time to type more meaningful comments.
Having said that, the internet is plenty of assholes who will be nasty regardless of the situation, that's just how it is. But in general I feel that the design of modern MMOs brings "good-ish" people to behave a bit like assholes. It is not just the lack of time due to the fast paced game-play, but also I feel that modern MMOs encourage players to be selfish as in general most of the content can be done by yourself and you are not motivated to socialize or being nice to other people in order to get their help.
But its how we wont be able to turn back time, that worries me somewhat, because without the way of communication we did before, games like Pantheon will never have a community like EQ had.
That is very much correct. It is an epitome of nostalgy and self-amusement....very bad business.
Now it can be near impossible to communicate when joining a new guild, without running face first into a handful of "Google it" "Google is your friend" or "<insert random website> linked here", often with no other words of communication.
Ever thought about switching games? Maybe you just search in the wrong places... It's not the external tools, not the games themselves, not the generation (which is shitty, I agree on that ), it is simply the community of the games.
Just try TSW for example, log in and ask anything on Sanctuary, even as straightforward stuff as key binding (you'd be surprised how often players mis-press a key, and then just look puzzled not knowing what to do ). And it's a new(-ish) game, with built-in browser and massive ties to the net, still, you never get "google that sh.t" type of answers... If you want helpful and friendly chat in a game, you need helpful and friendly community, simple as that. Now, why are most games' communities worth less than a piece of sh.t nowadays, that'd be a whole different topic :awesome: but fortunately that was not the question, so for your OP the answer is TSW (or LotRO, though the /world chat is dropped a notch down with the server transfers... still, leagues better than other games).
(also off-topic and could be an entire thread on its own, but do yourself some good, and don't listen to those "google is your friend" lines. Google lost its "don't be evil" touch by the time we stepped into the 2000s. Use the Duck instead)
Ever thought about switching games? Maybe you just search in the wrong places... It's not the external tools, not the games themselves, not the generation (which is shitty, I agree on that ), it is simply the community of the games.
A good community doesn't suddenly magically appear. It's the game that mold its community, it's the game that attracts a certain type of community. In short, it's the game mechanics that create bad or good communities.
As I explained in my previous posts, modern MMOs can turn even the most friendly people into Sociopaths, as they are built around self preservation and personal entitlement.
TSW is a slow paced MMO, you have to slow down as you try to understand the quests and solve the puzzles. That gives player time to also help other people and creates a better social environment.
In my opinion if you ask basic stuff that you should take time to read and find out for yourself I think that is lazy on the part of the person asking. I don't think lazy people should be encouraged to be lazy. It is very odd that when you play a game you do not even bother to research the game and find out how to do things in it.
They come and ask really dumb questions in chat that people get absolutely fed up of answering which in part is why they say google it. If this has already been addressed here sorry have not much time and I did not read the whole thread.
OTOH if it is something that is confusing or complicated and needs explanation I think it is fair for someone to ask but mollycoddling people who are too lazy to just find things out for themselves will never help them in life or games.
In my opinion if you ask basic stuff that you should take time to read and find out for yourself I think that is lazy on the part of the person asking. I don't think lazy people should be encouraged to be lazy. It is very odd that when you play a game you do not even bother to research the game and find out how to do things in it.
They come and ask really dumb questions in chat that people get absolutely fed up of answering which in part is why they say google it. If this has already been addressed here sorry have not much time and I did not read the whole thread.
OTOH if it is something that is confusing or complicated and needs explanation I think it is fair for someone to ask but mollycoddling people who are too lazy to just find things out for themselves will never help them in life or games.
My first feeling when reading your post, is an overwhelming sadness.
But that is maybe because I believe that only very few people ask questions out of laziness, but rather with the intention of reaching out to people on their servers. Establishing contact, seeking advice, that they themselves would pass on later to the next person in line, who will be asking same question.
If you disregard these people, as purely lazy, maybe almost considered offensive to you, then I cant help but wonder, if we are somehow imprisoning people to mind their own business forcing them away from community out of fear of being judged harshly, merely for asking a question.
Now it can be near impossible to communicate when joining a new guild, without running face first into a handful of "Google it" "Google is your friend" or "<insert random website> linked here", often with no other words of communication.
Ever thought about switching games? Maybe you just search in the wrong places... It's not the external tools, not the games themselves, not the generation (which is shitty, I agree on that ), it is simply the community of the games.
Just try TSW for example, log in and ask anything on Sanctuary, even as straightforward stuff as key binding (you'd be surprised how often players mis-press a key, and then just look puzzled not knowing what to do ). And it's a new(-ish) game, with built-in browser and massive ties to the net, still, you never get "google that sh.t" type of answers... If you want helpful and friendly chat in a game, you need helpful and friendly community, simple as that. Now, why are most games' communities worth less than a piece of sh.t nowadays, that'd be a whole different topic :awesome: but fortunately that was not the question, so for your OP the answer is TSW (or LotRO, though the /world chat is dropped a notch down with the server transfers... still, leagues better than other games).
(also off-topic and could be an entire thread on its own, but do yourself some good, and don't listen to those "google is your friend" lines. Google lost its "don't be evil" touch by the time we stepped into the 2000s. Use the Duck instead)
Insightfull
Just wish I knew what this Duck business were. I see it mentioned everywhere these days. What is up with the ducks?
Sorry for being utterly clueless, I have no idea what that duck thing is, halp!
Ever thought about switching games? Maybe you just search in the wrong places... It's not the external tools, not the games themselves, not the generation (which is shitty, I agree on that ), it is simply the community of the games.
A good community doesn't suddenly magically appear. It's the game that mold its community, it's the game that attracts a certain type of community. In short, it's the game mechanics that create bad or good communities.
As I explained in my previous posts, modern MMOs can turn even the most friendly people into Sociopaths, as they are built around self preservation and personal entitlement.
TSW is a slow paced MMO, you have to slow down as you try to understand the quests and solve the puzzles. That gives player time to also help other people and creates a better social environment.
And the most ironic thing about bringing up TSW in this conversation, they actually added an in game browser so people could indeed "GOOGLE IT" for quest clues. The result, many lazy players just asked in general chat for the answers.
People not wanting to take time to use text chat to try to explain complex concepts about a game is not a symptom of a bad community. Its simply that they know in less time than it would take to type out an explanation a player could have just alt tabbed out of game and found a plethora of comprehensive answers, guides, videos, what have you at their fingertips.
I am not familiar with the game. But is there in any way a possibility of considering, that these people who ask, simply would like to communicate with other people?
Now it can be near impossible to communicate when joining a new guild, without running face first into a handful of "Google it" "Google is your friend" or "<insert random website> linked here", often with no other words of communication.
Ever thought about switching games? Maybe you just search in the wrong places... It's not the external tools, not the games themselves, not the generation (which is shitty, I agree on that ), it is simply the community of the games.
Just try TSW for example, log in and ask anything on Sanctuary, even as straightforward stuff as key binding (you'd be surprised how often players mis-press a key, and then just look puzzled not knowing what to do ). And it's a new(-ish) game, with built-in browser and massive ties to the net, still, you never get "google that sh.t" type of answers... If you want helpful and friendly chat in a game, you need helpful and friendly community, simple as that. Now, why are most games' communities worth less than a piece of sh.t nowadays, that'd be a whole different topic :awesome: but fortunately that was not the question, so for your OP the answer is TSW (or LotRO, though the /world chat is dropped a notch down with the server transfers... still, leagues better than other games).
(also off-topic and could be an entire thread on its own, but do yourself some good, and don't listen to those "google is your friend" lines. Google lost its "don't be evil" touch by the time we stepped into the 2000s. Use the Duck instead)
Insightfull
Just wish I knew what this Duck business were. I see it mentioned everywhere these days. What is up with the ducks?
Sorry for being utterly clueless, I have no idea what that duck thing is, halp!
duckduckgo search engine . . . uh ... Google it?
Yeah I knew one of you would end up with the google comment.
But you see, I find myself extremely lonely when I use google, to the point of feeling that my question does not matter, that I should not care for anything at all, cause asking does not lead to communicating with other people anyway, which is really what I like and enjoy.
Translated into a game related situation, it means I simply lose interest for the game. No communication with people, no interest in the game.
Ever thought about switching games? Maybe you just search in the wrong places... It's not the external tools, not the games themselves, not the generation (which is shitty, I agree on that ), it is simply the community of the games.
A good community doesn't suddenly magically appear. It's the game that mold its community, it's the game that attracts a certain type of community. In short, it's the game mechanics that create bad or good communities.
As I explained in my previous posts, modern MMOs can turn even the most friendly people into Sociopaths, as they are built around self preservation and personal entitlement.
TSW is a slow paced MMO, you have to slow down as you try to understand the quests and solve the puzzles. That gives player time to also help other people and creates a better social environment.
And the most ironic thing about bringing up TSW in this conversation, they actually added an in game browser so people could indeed "GOOGLE IT" for quest clues. The result, many lazy players just asked in general chat for the answers.
People not wanting to take time to use text chat to try to explain complex concepts about a game is not a symptom of a bad community. Its simply that they know in less time than it would take to type out an explanation a player could have just alt tabbed out of game and found a plethora of comprehensive answers, guides, videos, what have you at their fingertips.
I am not familiar with the game. But is there in any way a possibility of considering, that these people who ask, simply would like to communicate with other people?
No I'd say it wasn't that. In the Secret World MMO there were some damned hard clues, such as figuring out a message in Morse code. Many players just weren't interested in taking time to solve those on their own.
I will not deny that it is much fun to work things out on my own. I do love a good puzzle or riddle and working my way through a problem.
I think however games such as SW I would not play though, simply because they are probably too hard to work my way through, without assistance from google. On top of that, if people would feel offended if I would ask for help, it would be another reason for me not to play at all.
Also, I think I prefer to amaze myself a little less, dwelling less in my own pride of being able to solve everything on my own, if asking a question to a problem I may be stuck in, might lead to win a friend along the adventure, simply by reaching out to the community.
i remember using allakazham a lot , hell i remember creating my own map to know where mobs where or important NPCS .....nowadays u get a map , and a circle where to go , that isnt bad , if the NPC needs u to kill a target he usually know when it was sighted....
"google it" , because if u need to ask anythign is faster typing it on google and having the answer instantly
where is X NPC? type the mmorpg and the npc and tada! , screenshot of the npc , loc and info about what he eats for breakfast ,favorite color , dog's name and underwear size in case u want to gift him a pair
And the most ironic thing about bringing up TSW in this conversation, they actually added an in game browser so people could indeed "GOOGLE IT" for quest clues. The result, many lazy players just asked in general chat for the answers.
People not wanting to take time to use text chat to try to explain complex concepts about a game is not a symptom of a bad community. Its simply that they know in less time than it would take to type out an explanation a player could have just alt tabbed out of game and found a plethora of comprehensive answers, guides, videos, what have you at their fingertips.
I disagree. I like to talk to people in chat and explain stuff whenever I can. People who ask stuff in chat (I do) are not lazy, they just want to interact with other people. A MMORPG should not be a job where you do your home work and come prepared as if your life depends on it. Learning the game while you play it's part of the appeal. Asking stuff to people and interacting with the community is part of what makes a MMORPG a MMORPG. I really don't get the Pro attitude in MMORPGs, that's fine for MOBAs and Multiplayer games like COD but not for MMOs.
EDIT: And yes I do "Google it" if I think something is more complicated and cannot be explained in chat, it's a matter of being sensible of course. Don't over do it either way.
OP you are more right than you know. The social connection of any online interaction has died. I've said for years the age of communication is destroying our ability to connect to each other to build those social relationships. I have literally seen people sitting at the same table texting each other instead of talking to the person sitting right next to them. Even more disturbing is our destruction of language and grammar, its all text speak and emoji now. Losing that social connection effects us psychologically. People are becoming more stupid, more angry, more primitive. We as humanity are devolving. You can almost see cro magnon man reemerging in some people, some cultures. When we become so reliant on technology that it does our thinking for us our decision making for us our emotions for us, maybe it is time to step back from that technology and reinvest in our humanity.
OP you are more right than you know. The social connection of any online interaction has died. I've said for years the age of communication is destroying our ability to connect to each other to build those social relationships. I have literally seen people sitting at the same table texting each other instead of talking to the person sitting right next to them. Even more disturbing is our destruction of language and grammar, its all text speak and emoji now. Losing that social connection effects us psychologically. People are becoming more stupid, more angry, more primitive. We as humanity are devolving. You can almost see cro magnon man reemerging in some people, some cultures. When we become so reliant on technology that it does our thinking for us our decision making for us our emotions for us, maybe it is time to step back from that technology and reinvest in our humanity.
Very strong message, almost a bit scary, yet I still agree with its core.
At the same time, this very same technology makes us able to play MMORPGs in the first place, which I am very fond of.
I do agree though, but maybe think that we would do well in somehow finding a middle ground.
It maybe seems that we as species, might not have been very well equipped to yet handle the extremely fast impact that technology provides, and we will need a lot of time to learn how to protect and preserve our humanity, while we deal with the challenges.
yeah u cant blame google , or guides , or databases for that , the old games had tons of "hidden" mechanics , u couldnt even see some stats , the game were slow paced , and u needed to rest a lot , and wonder what ppl did while resting and regaining HP or Mana? *gasp* TALK to each other , hell even i remember back then ppl WAVED at you when passing by , sometimes u got buffed and the answer to that was THANKS followed by a /bow emote , nowadays they /spit or /slap at u because u are killing "their" mobs , ppl are way more rude nowadays.....
You dont have time to type anything in chat anymore , fast paced games killed somewhat communication inside the game (now is all about VoiP) , since u dont even have 2s to type anything....so no1 talks while grouping
In my own experience, I feel like there has been an increase over time in the number of people who derive more enjoyment in annoying other people than in playing the game.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
In my own experience, I feel like there has been an increase over time in the number of people who derive more enjoyment in annoying other people than in playing the game.
But do they annoy people, simply to establish contact with other people? I know we can not answer this, but it is on my mind if this is in fact the case.
Is a common "hello, how are you, are you enjoying the game, can I help you?", have people forgotten these ways of interacting with others? Or have this way of interacting with other people suffered a stigma of being a boring way to get in contact with others?
Are people under the pressure, that they have to be comedians to somehow legitimize their presence?
Now do I feel there is a general decline in interpersonal communication in modern MMORPGs? Oh hell yeah. However I sure as hell don't blame that on the existence of GOOGLE. It goes far deeper than that. It hinges on game design, the much larger amount of players per game, the time average players spend in one game, etc.
I didn't say you were blaming Google, I disagreed on the fact that you think that people that ask questions in games are lazy. Most of them are not, they just want an excuse to interact with other player, a bit like talking about the weather in real life to break the ice.
I certainly don't blame it on Google, I blame it to the modern game design that doesn't allow time for people who are inclined to socialize to do so, as every minute is packed with frenetic game-play which doesn't allow people time to take a deep breath and relax. That' was my whole point.
As I said there are plenty of assholes on the web who will behave like they just own a single brain cell regardless of the situation. However I am under the impression that modern MMOs made the matter far worse than it should be, and in fact indirectly encourage such behavior.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Now do I feel there is a general decline in interpersonal communication in modern MMORPGs? Oh hell yeah. However I sure as hell don't blame that on the existence of GOOGLE. It goes far deeper than that. It hinges on game design, the much larger amount of players per game, the time average players spend in one game, etc.
I didn't say you were blaming Google, I disagreed on the fact that you think that people that ask questions in games are lazy. Most of them are not, they just want an excuse to interact with other player, a bit like talking about the weather in real life to break the ice.
I certainly don't blame it on Google, I blame it to the modern game design that doesn't allow time for people who are inclined to socialize to do so, as every minute is packed with frenetic game-play which doesn't allow people time to take a deep breath and relax. That' was my whole point.
As I said there are plenty of assholes on the web who will behave like they just own a single brain cell regardless of the situation. However I am under the impression that modern MMOs made the matter far worse than it should be, and in fact indirectly encourage such behavior.
I agree, game design changed significantly from 2002 until today, and now players are kept so busy, and given so little downtime there's no real chance to be social, especially in a chat channel.
Recently returned to a new DAOC shard, which as it's 2002 rule set we have all of the original downtime mechanics. We have to sit between fights, spend long amounts of time traveling via horse or on foot, waiting for a portal keep teleport etc which enables us to chat as a group.
Guild and Alliance text chats are very active as well, and even though there's a server wide voice service it's rarely used unless a big PVP or PVE raid is going on.
I honestly can't think of one time I've seen someone post "Google it" in any of the chat channels, not even when I was in the starter guild chat for the first two weeks.
I will say some folks have directed people to the Uthard forums for specific info about things such as server status or IRC channel, but it's an infrequent occurrence.
So while the players may have changed some, I think it's largely the game design that has led them there, not the other way around.
In EVE text chatting is also still very much a thing, whether in guild, local or what not, despite most everyone having access to voice chats and the like. But then, EVE provides lots of downtime, so again, lots more text chatting than say I found in AA or BDO.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
When I began my adventures with MMORPGs, I started out with DaoC and EQ1, it was a brief time with those games, then EQ2 was on the way at the same time as WoW and it was pure coincidence that I landed in WoW and just kind of stuck with that since.
Now the threads about MMORPGs that once was and what is now are plenty enough and many things are said and debated.
What I do remember from the past though, was that people did not have to register and make applications to guilds to become members. Was no voicechats. No Discord and the like.
And nobody ever responded with a "Google it" when people asked for advice whether it was in public chat channels in a game or inside their guilds.
Now it can be near impossible to communicate when joining a new guild, without running face first into a handful of "Google it" "Google is your friend" or "<insert random website> linked here", often with no other words of communication.
I am not saying everybody is like that, but the people who are very fond of google and seems to believe that it is the best way to help other people, rather than spending a few extra minutes typing a few advices out, they seem to have become increasingly more common over the years.
I am however in no position to pass judgement on a group of people, who communicate and engage with other people this way, new eras provide new things and people are under influence of how the world change.
I will say though, I have started to believe that the reason we can not return to how things once was, is because a lot of people themselves will not spend the extra time on typing things to each other in a game. Making friends and mingle that way.
Or am I wrong?
(Yes I know somebody will tell me to google it, and then I can rest my case ^^ ) But the question still stands
My first MMO was shadowbane and I suppose I had a much different experience then you back in 2002. With Shadowbane you absolutely had to register for a guild due to the large potential of spying from guild to guild. You even had a send a screen shot of your log in screen to ensure you didn't have a character with another guild. Also, we had teamspeak and it was required. People also usually told others to google/search different builds.
I'm 36... I don't think its a generation thing. There were plenty of asshats around back then too. You just need to find the right group of people. you can't reclaim all the old feelings, but you can still have a good time.
I will say though, I have started to believe that the reason we can not return to how things once was, is because a lot of people themselves will not spend the extra time on typing things to each other in a game. Making friends and mingle that way.
Or am I wrong?
(Yes I know somebody will tell me to google it, and then I can rest my case ^^ ) But the question still stands
My belief and gut feeling is it will never be the same, because there are way too many games, and more people online then ever before. I think everyone is too spread out and having all these choices reduces loyalty.
I think some of you are looking at this all wrong. I've had this debate as a mid 30's gamer numerous times. It will never be the same because YOU will never be the same. You've/we've changed. You have different experiences from the you years ago. You've had your first guild, first guild promotion, first TS chats, first raids.You can't get that back again no matter what game you play.
We older gamers constantly chase these feelings instead of accepting the fact that we're not the people we were 15/20 years ago. There were tons of games to play back in the early 2000's. That wasn't the reason things were different.
The subject of psychology within MMOs (i.e. socialising) is one I find fascinating and I've spent a fair amount of time reading around the subject. I also work in the tech sector so have an interest in that too, plus I'm a former raid- and guild-leader so the subject of socialising in MMOs is one close to my heart.
This thread seems to be a 3-way discussion about the decline of community in MMOs.
Is it the players fault? Is it the game designs fault? Is it the fault of modern technology?
Personally, I put 90% of the blame on the game design, 5% on the players and 5% on technology.
There is a pretty prevalent assumption that the younger generation, and gamers in general, have less time to game and thus less time to waste socialising in MMOs. There is also the assumption that the younger generation somehow has shorter attention spans than we did 10-15 years ago. I disagree with both these assumptions. The time argument is a complete fallacy with no evidence to support it. The attention span theory does have some validity but it's not as widespread as you think, certainly not a big factor.
The difference, when it comes to players, is market choice and competing events. With more games on the market, there is less reason to stick around once you've gotten bored or completed what you find interesting. So, the playerbase is much more fluid. It's not the players fault, we haven't changed our behaviour, we just have the option to play more things. On the competing events, in 2003 when I first entered the world of MMOs, if I was at home and wanted to interact with other people I had limited options. I could use my phone and chat to some, send a text, speak to my family or jump online for MSN messenger or some forums.
MMOs, in 2003, basically gave me the same online social functionality (a chat channel) whilst allowing me to play a game at the same time. Now, in 2017, there is simply a hell of a lot more going on to grab my attention. Social networking provides superior social functionality to MMOs: text chat, video calls, sharing pictures and videos, group chat, access to millions of other people, hell you can even interact with your favourite celebrities on twitter if you so choose. This means MMOs have fallen behind on the social functionality side of things so people who wish to be social online would rather go elsewhere.
On the technology front, again, the reason I don't really blame technology is because it's a tool to be used. Technology doesn't have an agenda, it's not trying to change who we are. It is simply something to be used as we see fit. With better technology, such as game streaming, HD youtube videos etc, all this has done is provide us with an alternative way to record data. We, as a community, then use the most appropriate form of technology for the data we want to transmit.
So, when it comes to boss strategies, I'd rather watch a video - this is because spacial awareness is key, positioning is key, and visual feedback from bosses is often key to strategies. Video is the superior method of communication.
When it comes to rotations / builds, I'd rather have it written down on a website. It's the sort of thing I will need to read more than once, so speaking to someone in person wont cut it. It requires skill icons, mathematical formula, workflows etc to communicate everything properly.
When it comes to quest locations, images are best. A map with markers is better than someone saying "Not too far from weathertop, north east I think".
So, you can't blame the technology for a reduction in socialising. Maybe back in the day, the lack of appropriate technology resulted in more talking to one another, but now that it exists, why wouldn't you make use of it? We get the best form of the information usually in the quickest way. It's certainly quicker to google most stuff than it is to ask in chat and for someone to type out a reply.
So, we're left with game design. Someone else has already said it, but modern MMOs are just non-stop action. We are not given the time to socialise, we have to actively stop playing the game in order to socialise. Does that seem right to you? On top of that, in game social structure are less important. Most games are 95% solo content, so you don't need to meet other people. Dungeon finders make finding groups automatic, so no need for friends list. Cross server group finders reduce the importance of social responsibility. Combat design has been simplified so much that player skill is less important, its mostly about the gear. This allows us to make snap judgements about people based on their gear, further reducing the need to actually get to know one another. Guilds are largely irrelevant, they are mostly just formalised social structures within game without any real purpose. A custom chat channel and a friends list covers 99% of the functionality that people actually use in a guild.
So, if the game doesn't give us time to socialise, doesn't give us a reason to socialise and doesn't punish people for anti-social behaviour, is it really any surprise that being social in game is on the decline?
With all that said, I feel I must ask an important question: is the decline of socialising in MMOs actually a problem?
It's a bit of a philosophical problem and doesn't have a right or wrong answer. On the one hand, all the data shows that the number of players, the amount of money and the amount of MMOs is increasing. Basically, the genre is winning the numbers game. Perhaps developers were right to reduce the importance of socialising.
Or are they missing a trick? If they increased the importance of social bonding in MMOs, sure, they might put off some initial customers but those same social bonds would dramatically increase retention rates, leading to MMOs that stay healthy for longer (I personally believe this to be the reason for WoW's continued success - but not initial success).
Is it possible to create an MMO that highly encourages social bonding via things like lots of group content, regular downtime, guild benefits etc, and yet have that game remain enjoyable and engaging for those who don't want to socialise?
My personal opinion is that socialising in MMOs is key to long term success. Retention rates are more important than box sales when talking about games that will be running for 10 years or more. Massively-multiplayer online.......if your MMO isn't encouraging you to play with other people, it is missing the whole point of the genre.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
yup i think the retention will be boosted by 10000% if the game was more sociable ,i played tons of mmorpgs , and it was easy to quit a game that u have no attachment , others however , even when i wanted to "quit" , the friends i made inside made me think about it and stay, i played some for years just because i enjoyed the community, SOCIAL BOUNDS ARE WHAT MAKE OR BREAK A MMORPG
hell sometimes i was working and couldnt wait to log in , not because the game (that i enjoyed) but because to chat with my friends , hell i still have my old FC on whatsapp group and chat with them almost every day .
But in today mmorpgs u log in , and not need a guild , or if u have one u say HI and go on your way , do your things (dailys , some pvp , dungeon ) and log off , u can stop and chat for a while , but in some games is really hard to chat while playing.
random examples :
FFXIV , in dungeons u have little to no time to chat , u are always moving , killing things or doing bosses ,the only time u take a "break" is if u wipe or if some goes afk.
FFXI : u are always talking , if u are mele while tping to 100 , while resting as mage , btw Cds on anything , the only 1 that was busy enough were pullers or RNG since there were no auto ranged attack , and even then could chat a bit , waiting on airship or during travel , on chocobo , while moving to camp ....
Comments
I am generally a chatty person, and even when I am busy I keep an eye at the chat and if there is something worth a reply I will throw a one liner, because I can't resist.
Most of the time it will be sarcastic remarks as they are the shortest and most efficient way of communication, not the most popular though, in particular if you are at the receiving end.
If I play a more relaxed game though, I have more time to type more meaningful comments.
Having said that, the internet is plenty of assholes who will be nasty regardless of the situation, that's just how it is.
But in general I feel that the design of modern MMOs brings "good-ish" people to behave a bit like assholes.
It is not just the lack of time due to the fast paced game-play, but also I feel that modern MMOs encourage players to be selfish as in general most of the content can be done by yourself and you are not motivated to socialize or being nice to other people in order to get their help.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
It's not the external tools, not the games themselves, not the generation (which is shitty, I agree on that
Just try TSW for example, log in and ask anything on Sanctuary, even as straightforward stuff as key binding (you'd be surprised how often players mis-press a key, and then just look puzzled not knowing what to do
If you want helpful and friendly chat in a game, you need helpful and friendly community, simple as that. Now, why are most games' communities worth less than a piece of sh.t nowadays, that'd be a whole different topic :awesome: but fortunately that was not the question, so for your OP the answer is TSW (or LotRO, though the /world chat is dropped a notch down with the server transfers... still, leagues better than other games).
(also off-topic and could be an entire thread on its own, but do yourself some good, and don't listen to those "google is your friend" lines. Google lost its "don't be evil" touch by the time we stepped into the 2000s. Use the Duck instead)
It's the game that mold its community, it's the game that attracts a certain type of community.
In short, it's the game mechanics that create bad or good communities.
As I explained in my previous posts, modern MMOs can turn even the most friendly people into Sociopaths, as they are built around self preservation and personal entitlement.
TSW is a slow paced MMO, you have to slow down as you try to understand the quests and solve the puzzles.
That gives player time to also help other people and creates a better social environment.
They come and ask really dumb questions in chat that people get absolutely fed up of answering which in part is why they say google it. If this has already been addressed here sorry have not much time and I did not read the whole thread.
OTOH if it is something that is confusing or complicated and needs explanation I think it is fair for someone to ask but mollycoddling people who are too lazy to just find things out for themselves will never help them in life or games.
My first feeling when reading your post, is an overwhelming sadness.
But that is maybe because I believe that only very few people ask questions out of laziness, but rather with the intention of reaching out to people on their servers. Establishing contact, seeking advice, that they themselves would pass on later to the next person in line, who will be asking same question.
If you disregard these people, as purely lazy, maybe almost considered offensive to you, then I cant help but wonder, if we are somehow imprisoning people to mind their own business forcing them away from community out of fear of being judged harshly, merely for asking a question.
Insightfull
Just wish I knew what this Duck business were. I see it mentioned everywhere these days.
What is up with the ducks?
Sorry for being utterly clueless, I have no idea what that duck thing is, halp!
I am not familiar with the game. But is there in any way a possibility of considering, that these people who ask, simply would like to communicate with other people?
Yeah I knew one of you would end up with the google comment.
But you see, I find myself extremely lonely when I use google, to the point of feeling that my question does not matter, that I should not care for anything at all, cause asking does not lead to communicating with other people anyway, which is really what I like and enjoy.
Translated into a game related situation, it means I simply lose interest for the game.
No communication with people, no interest in the game.
I will not deny that it is much fun to work things out on my own. I do love a good puzzle or riddle and working my way through a problem.
I think however games such as SW I would not play though, simply because they are probably too hard to work my way through, without assistance from google. On top of that, if people would feel offended if I would ask for help, it would be another reason for me not to play at all.
Also, I think I prefer to amaze myself a little less, dwelling less in my own pride of being able to solve everything on my own, if asking a question to a problem I may be stuck in, might lead to win a friend along the adventure, simply by reaching out to the community.
"google it" , because if u need to ask anythign is faster typing it on google and having the answer instantly
where is X NPC? type the mmorpg and the npc and tada! , screenshot of the npc , loc and info about what he eats for breakfast ,favorite color , dog's name and underwear size in case u want to gift him a pair
I like to talk to people in chat and explain stuff whenever I can.
People who ask stuff in chat (I do) are not lazy, they just want to interact with other people.
A MMORPG should not be a job where you do your home work and come prepared as if your life depends on it.
Learning the game while you play it's part of the appeal.
Asking stuff to people and interacting with the community is part of what makes a MMORPG a MMORPG.
I really don't get the Pro attitude in MMORPGs, that's fine for MOBAs and Multiplayer games like COD but not for MMOs.
EDIT: And yes I do "Google it" if I think something is more complicated and cannot be explained in chat, it's a matter of being sensible of course.
Don't over do it either way.
Very strong message, almost a bit scary, yet I still agree with its core.
At the same time, this very same technology makes us able to play MMORPGs in the first place, which I am very fond of.
I do agree though, but maybe think that we would do well in somehow finding a middle ground.
It maybe seems that we as species, might not have been very well equipped to yet handle the extremely fast impact that technology provides, and we will need a lot of time to learn how to protect and preserve our humanity, while we deal with the challenges.
You dont have time to type anything in chat anymore , fast paced games killed somewhat communication inside the game (now is all about VoiP) , since u dont even have 2s to type anything....so no1 talks while grouping
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
But do they annoy people, simply to establish contact with other people?
I know we can not answer this, but it is on my mind if this is in fact the case.
Is a common "hello, how are you, are you enjoying the game, can I help you?", have people forgotten these ways of interacting with others?
Or have this way of interacting with other people suffered a stigma of being a boring way to get in contact with others?
Are people under the pressure, that they have to be comedians to somehow legitimize their presence?
Most of them are not, they just want an excuse to interact with other player, a bit like talking about the weather in real life to break the ice.
I certainly don't blame it on Google, I blame it to the modern game design that doesn't allow time for people who are inclined to socialize to do so, as every minute is packed with frenetic game-play which doesn't allow people time to take a deep breath and relax.
That' was my whole point.
As I said there are plenty of assholes on the web who will behave like they just own a single brain cell regardless of the situation.
However I am under the impression that modern MMOs made the matter far worse than it should be, and in fact indirectly encourage such behavior.
You know full well as @ste2000 shared, back in 2002 when I played DAOC we had VNBoards, and people didn't tell you to go "VNBoard it"
In fact, more often than not they would take the time to look it up on ZAM or VNB and post the link the info you needed directly into the chat.
But again, you know all of this, but argue to be contrarian.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Recently returned to a new DAOC shard, which as it's 2002 rule set we have all of the original downtime mechanics. We have to sit between fights, spend long amounts of time traveling via horse or on foot, waiting for a portal keep teleport etc which enables us to chat as a group.
Guild and Alliance text chats are very active as well, and even though there's a server wide voice service it's rarely used unless a big PVP or PVE raid is going on.
I honestly can't think of one time I've seen someone post "Google it" in any of the chat channels, not even when I was in the starter guild chat for the first two weeks.
I will say some folks have directed people to the Uthard forums for specific info about things such as server status or IRC channel, but it's an infrequent occurrence.
So while the players may have changed some, I think it's largely the game design that has led them there, not the other way around.
In EVE text chatting is also still very much a thing, whether in guild, local or what not, despite most everyone having access to voice chats and the like. But then, EVE provides lots of downtime, so again, lots more text chatting than say I found in AA or BDO.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm 36... I don't think its a generation thing. There were plenty of asshats around back then too. You just need to find the right group of people. you can't reclaim all the old feelings, but you can still have a good time.
We older gamers constantly chase these feelings instead of accepting the fact that we're not the people we were 15/20 years ago. There were tons of games to play back in the early 2000's. That wasn't the reason things were different.
This thread seems to be a 3-way discussion about the decline of community in MMOs.
Is it the players fault?
Is it the game designs fault?
Is it the fault of modern technology?
Personally, I put 90% of the blame on the game design, 5% on the players and 5% on technology.
There is a pretty prevalent assumption that the younger generation, and gamers in general, have less time to game and thus less time to waste socialising in MMOs. There is also the assumption that the younger generation somehow has shorter attention spans than we did 10-15 years ago. I disagree with both these assumptions. The time argument is a complete fallacy with no evidence to support it. The attention span theory does have some validity but it's not as widespread as you think, certainly not a big factor.
The difference, when it comes to players, is market choice and competing events. With more games on the market, there is less reason to stick around once you've gotten bored or completed what you find interesting. So, the playerbase is much more fluid. It's not the players fault, we haven't changed our behaviour, we just have the option to play more things. On the competing events, in 2003 when I first entered the world of MMOs, if I was at home and wanted to interact with other people I had limited options. I could use my phone and chat to some, send a text, speak to my family or jump online for MSN messenger or some forums.
MMOs, in 2003, basically gave me the same online social functionality (a chat channel) whilst allowing me to play a game at the same time. Now, in 2017, there is simply a hell of a lot more going on to grab my attention. Social networking provides superior social functionality to MMOs: text chat, video calls, sharing pictures and videos, group chat, access to millions of other people, hell you can even interact with your favourite celebrities on twitter if you so choose. This means MMOs have fallen behind on the social functionality side of things so people who wish to be social online would rather go elsewhere.
On the technology front, again, the reason I don't really blame technology is because it's a tool to be used. Technology doesn't have an agenda, it's not trying to change who we are. It is simply something to be used as we see fit. With better technology, such as game streaming, HD youtube videos etc, all this has done is provide us with an alternative way to record data. We, as a community, then use the most appropriate form of technology for the data we want to transmit.
So, when it comes to boss strategies, I'd rather watch a video - this is because spacial awareness is key, positioning is key, and visual feedback from bosses is often key to strategies. Video is the superior method of communication.
When it comes to rotations / builds, I'd rather have it written down on a website. It's the sort of thing I will need to read more than once, so speaking to someone in person wont cut it. It requires skill icons, mathematical formula, workflows etc to communicate everything properly.
When it comes to quest locations, images are best. A map with markers is better than someone saying "Not too far from weathertop, north east I think".
So, you can't blame the technology for a reduction in socialising. Maybe back in the day, the lack of appropriate technology resulted in more talking to one another, but now that it exists, why wouldn't you make use of it? We get the best form of the information usually in the quickest way. It's certainly quicker to google most stuff than it is to ask in chat and for someone to type out a reply.
So, we're left with game design. Someone else has already said it, but modern MMOs are just non-stop action. We are not given the time to socialise, we have to actively stop playing the game in order to socialise. Does that seem right to you? On top of that, in game social structure are less important. Most games are 95% solo content, so you don't need to meet other people. Dungeon finders make finding groups automatic, so no need for friends list. Cross server group finders reduce the importance of social responsibility. Combat design has been simplified so much that player skill is less important, its mostly about the gear. This allows us to make snap judgements about people based on their gear, further reducing the need to actually get to know one another. Guilds are largely irrelevant, they are mostly just formalised social structures within game without any real purpose. A custom chat channel and a friends list covers 99% of the functionality that people actually use in a guild.
So, if the game doesn't give us time to socialise, doesn't give us a reason to socialise and doesn't punish people for anti-social behaviour, is it really any surprise that being social in game is on the decline?
With all that said, I feel I must ask an important question: is the decline of socialising in MMOs actually a problem?
It's a bit of a philosophical problem and doesn't have a right or wrong answer. On the one hand, all the data shows that the number of players, the amount of money and the amount of MMOs is increasing. Basically, the genre is winning the numbers game. Perhaps developers were right to reduce the importance of socialising.
Or are they missing a trick? If they increased the importance of social bonding in MMOs, sure, they might put off some initial customers but those same social bonds would dramatically increase retention rates, leading to MMOs that stay healthy for longer (I personally believe this to be the reason for WoW's continued success - but not initial success).
Is it possible to create an MMO that highly encourages social bonding via things like lots of group content, regular downtime, guild benefits etc, and yet have that game remain enjoyable and engaging for those who don't want to socialise?
My personal opinion is that socialising in MMOs is key to long term success. Retention rates are more important than box sales when talking about games that will be running for 10 years or more. Massively-multiplayer online.......if your MMO isn't encouraging you to play with other people, it is missing the whole point of the genre.
hell sometimes i was working and couldnt wait to log in , not because the game (that i enjoyed) but because to chat with my friends , hell i still have my old FC on whatsapp group and chat with them almost every day .
But in today mmorpgs u log in , and not need a guild , or if u have one u say HI and go on your way , do your things (dailys , some pvp , dungeon ) and log off , u can stop and chat for a while , but in some games is really hard to chat while playing.
random examples :
FFXIV , in dungeons u have little to no time to chat , u are always moving , killing things or doing bosses ,the only time u take a "break" is if u wipe or if some goes afk.
FFXI : u are always talking , if u are mele while tping to 100 , while resting as mage , btw Cds on anything , the only 1 that was busy enough were pullers or RNG since there were no auto ranged attack , and even then could chat a bit , waiting on airship or during travel , on chocobo , while moving to camp ....