I don't see a lot of creativity there on classes and races,very little.
I won't be checking out FB because i would burn FB out of existence if i had a choice.
Summoner should be interesting,nobody has ever matched FF's Summoner class.
In general though,i notice aside from FFXI and why i loved FFXi so much,pet classes tend to be always the same and just bad.
What devs tend to do with pet classes is make the combined total the same as any other specific class,which kind of makes pet classes boring then.Hopefully they get it right.
I really want to play a bard, I hope they make launch. I do like the way their lore is going. Also just because it was like x, y, z in EQ1 does not mean it has to be the same.
I really want to play a bard, I hope they make launch. I do like the way their lore is going. Also just because it was like x, y, z in EQ1 does not mean it has to be the same.
Preach it brother!
I am bummed about lack of bards planned for launch.
Thats what made EQ1 so amazing, the sheer variety and depth of different play styles:
Melee tank Melee damage/puller Pure healer Pet classes CC classes Buff classes Classes that shined outside aka kiters Reverse kiters Taxi classes Magic ranged damage Hybrids Jack of all trade classes etc....
I mean the classes were very different in terms of HOW you played them.
Pantheon not having bards yet feels so sad
It is an odd choice to not have it at launch (I'm sure they will add it later). It definitely would've been my main.
Rift has one of the best bards in recent years at least.
PFFFTTtttttt Bards, just an excuse to flounce around in big girls blouse's and drink sherry while yodelling "Hey nonny nonny noooo" while contracting digitalised STD's at every public toilet they pass, its no wonder they are not in at launch, all that extra sleazy coding work.
Now Necromancers those fine upstanding citizens are truly a must at launch, as they do mostly what a Bard can do, but without all that singing and carrying on like a 17th century Rake loaded up on crushed fly and beetle wings.
Seriously though, happy with a Eq1 or better still Vanguard Necro, but for the love of Jebus no NO NO to the EQ2 one.
Otherwise, good list. Looking forward to playing Pantheon.
Humans have access to far too many classes.
I know it is a fantasy game and that they are making their own world, so the lore and other aspects can justify the class / race combinations they presented, so I am not disputing their choices, but if it was up to me, I would really take magic away from humans.
Human ranger, fighter, rogue, etc. all make sense, but a human wizard just feels weird. Where have primates learned to cast fireballs?
I find it weird.
How is that weird? I personally think it would be stupid to do that.
I seldom post but thought I would throw in my $0.02
After looking at the class/race restriction chart above, and thinking back to games like Everquest and other similar RPGs--both offline and online--I like what I see. One thing I have learned over the years of gaming is that every individual, as noted by Kxelem, brings his/her own expectations based on prior gaming experiences and personal perspective.
The Ogre Druid is a good example of this. In years past I would baulk at the idea of such a combination, but after playing Pillars of Eternity, I am more receptive to it. The traditional high fantasy ogre lives in wilderness-like environments so it makes sense to have ties to nature. It's true some authors, movie makers, game developers, etc portray ogres as curmudgeons, but in a brand new world like Pantheon is, it is crucial to be open-minded. In this case, I am much more open minded to an ogre druid than I would be an ogre rogue, simply due to their size. Again, that's my line of thinking.
Having said all of that, there is always subjective rationalization, but I am inclined to believe VR does not operate in that mode, at least intentionally. Therefore, I believe optimizing sensible cohesion across the board, from lore to gameplay, is VR's objective.
As a former EQ1 player, I am definitely keeping an eager eye on the development of this game. Great job so far, VR!
In EQ1 lore, Ogre's became so powerful that they conquered most of the known universe. So the God's struck them down and twisted their minds to make them dumb. So as to keep them in check. IMO high fantasy does not always need to be cookie cutter.
No Elf Paladin or Cleric?
I understand the need to experiment a bit but the whole Elf Race is a bit disappointing.
You lumped the Wood Elves and the High Elves together, which is fine but you didn't include all the High Elves trademark Classes which are the Paladin and the Cleric.
Instead I see a lot of Caster Classes, I never considered Elves to be Masters of the Arcane (Enchanter, Summoner, Wizard really?).
Shamans are also not a good fit IMO, they exploit nature to support their Magic while Elves work with it and protect it.
Anyway there is enough diversity to fit every play style which is what MMOs desperately need today. I pretty much know what I am going for already, my Main would be an Ogre Warrior, followed by a Gnome Enchanter, a Skar Necromancer and an Elf Cleric (Please ).
Otherwise, good list. Looking forward to playing Pantheon.
Humans have access to far too many classes.
I know it is a fantasy game and that they are making their own world, so the lore and other aspects can justify the class / race combinations they presented, so I am not disputing their choices, but if it was up to me, I would really take magic away from humans.
Human ranger, fighter, rogue, etc. all make sense, but a human wizard just feels weird. Where have primates learned to cast fireballs?
I find it weird.
How is that weird? I personally think it would be stupid to do that.
How is it not...I mean...its humans.
You do not see Aragorn telling Gandalf to step aside and blasting fireballs at his enemies .
No seriously, I understand that every fantasy world / lore is different, so you can have humans somehow learning magic, but why do you need that when you have a number of fantasy races for whom it is more natural to be able to cast spells.
EQ1 Vanguard and now Pantheon are heavily influenced by DnD. I think Brad must have played it allot as a youth. Funny you use LotR as it followed the same lore. Humans are the most diverse of the races. Never the strongest, smartest or agile. Just the best at diversity of classes/schools of learning.
Otherwise, good list. Looking forward to playing Pantheon.
Humans have access to far too many classes.
I know it is a fantasy game and that they are making their own world, so the lore and other aspects can justify the class / race combinations they presented, so I am not disputing their choices, but if it was up to me, I would really take magic away from humans.
Human ranger, fighter, rogue, etc. all make sense, but a human wizard just feels weird. Where have primates learned to cast fireballs?
I find it weird.
How is that weird? I personally think it would be stupid to do that.
How is it not...I mean...its humans.
You do not see Aragorn telling Gandalf to step aside and blasting fireballs at his enemies .
No seriously, I understand that every fantasy world / lore is different, so you can have humans somehow learning magic, but why do you need that when you have a number of fantasy races for whom it is more natural to be able to cast spells.
I find your logic really strange here.
Why are you okay with, for example, an elf pulling a fireball out of mid-air but not a human? It's stupid and unreal no matter who is doing it. How is it "more natural" for a gnome to yank a lightning bolt out of the sky and throw it at someone than for a human?
These are not Earth-based humans who stepped through a portal into a fantasy land and could suddenly throw fireballs. These humans were born and bred in a world full of magic. So, logic would dictate that they would be inherently more magical than a normal human and have a greater affinity for spellcasting.
Honestly no Gnome Monks? WTH is this? Dreams crushed thnx Pantheon.
Feel your pain, then I realised that the Skar are the new Iksar and that necro's will arrive, well arrive, more turn up when they damn well please and I then got a semi wood elf................Phrasing
Elves shouldnt be Warrior, Elves should be Paladin.
Apparently Dark Myr are really just Dark Elves, at least from the list of classes available to them.
P.s.: If I would make a list, I would probably do something more like:
Archai - Cleric, Dire Lord, Druid, Monk, Ranger, Shaman, Summoner, Wizard - All classes with possible Elemental Themes; no plain nonmagical classes (Rogue/Warrior)
Dark Myr - Bard, Cleric, Dire Lord, Enchanter, Monk, Necromancer, Rogue, Summoner, Wizard - All classes with possible Evil and Magic theme, and also Rogue
Dwarf - Bard, Cleric, Dire Lord, Enchanter, Monk, Paladin, Rogue, Warrior - All Tank classes, most Trickster classes (not Ranger), one Healer (Cleric), one Mage (Enchanter)
Elf - Bard, Cleric, Druid, Enchanter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Shaman, Summoner, Wizard - All magic and light classes, all tricksters
Halfling - Bard, Cleric, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard - Light themed, all tricksters, one of each of the others (Paladin, Cleric, Wizard)
Human - All but one or two classes, maybe not Druid and Shaman ?
Gnome - Enchanter, Monk, Rogue, Summoner, Wizard - All arcane magic classes, primarily physical trickster classes, no tank, no healer (due to being some kind of sentient golem)
Quite frankly I think you're discussing Volkswagen in a thread about Ferrari. Pantheon is not a low magic setting. You're discussing a low magic setting.
Actually when you really think about it, Gnomes are going to have
a tough time starting out in Pantheon. Especially with no tank or
healer class.
I'm cool with that part, actually.
None of the existing healer and tank classes match too well with the concept of magical golems.
Thus IMHO Gnomes should get a magic tank class at a later point (for example the Inquisitor that never was realized in Vanguard), and an arcane magic healer class (like Vanguards Blood Mage).
I'm much more concerned with WHY EVERY SINGLE OTHER RACE gets to play Warrior. IMHO Warriors are NOT a good choice for a common denominator class. Specifically elves shouldnt be Warrior. Elves should be Fighter/Mage, and Paladin. Dark Myr, as they are a kind of alternative Darkelf / Mermaid mix, shouldnt be Warrior. I dont think Archai have anything in them that suggests Warrior, either. Halfling as Warriors, well thats a bit borderline, but its an especially cool combo, since thats the smallest of the races, so I might keep that.
If you played EQ, VG, etc, while humans had access to more
classes than any other race, their stats are all significantly lower
than any other race. They were the weakest, with their strength relying
in class versatility, and, if I recall, advantages in tradeskills along
with not being hated by most races. So what happened is humans were kind
of rare to see, and underpowered (arguably). I personally love the ogre
druid; ties in with nature and, while brutish, ogres did make for
warlords/tacticians, so they are in no disparity of Wisdom, which is a
Druid's staple.
... say what ?
Humans have definitely been one of the strongest races in Vanguard. They couldnt get as high SINGLE stats as other races - but they would get just as many points as anybody else and they could raise ANY stat nicely, while the other races got stuck in a fixed bonus. Specifically humans got 14 points to distribute with up to +5 in any stat, while other races got 10 points to distribute with up to +4 in any stat, plus a fixed 4 points they couldnt change, such as for example +3 Strength, +1 Constitution for Lesser Giant etc.
I played Qaliathari (Arab) Human Dread Knight and that race pick was simply friggin awesome. I could skill all three stats I needed for the DK needed in optimal distribution (+5 Strength, +5 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, later for raids I switched to +4 Strength, +5 Constitution, +5 Intelligence because Strength capped anyway) and I got a racial ability that was insanely powerful (a 10 second invul on a 15 or 30 min recast timer, dont remember which exactly), already very helpful during normal adventuring and simply priceless during raiding. A very persistent advantage, no matter the level, gear or situation.
What could I have had otherwise ? Well Lesser Giant would have been able to get +7 Strength, +5 Constitution, +2 Intelligence. The effect of that much Strength ? It would have simply capped during raids. And the racial sounded great on paper but the hitpoint boost was so small when it really mattered it didnt made that much difference.
Orc could have gotten +6 Strength, +6 Constitution, +2 Intelligence. Not bad. The racial though was pretty useless for Dread Knight (lifetap).
Dwarf would have gotten +4 Strength, +7 Constitution, +1 Wisdom, +2 Intelligence. The hitpoints would have been sweet for sure. The Wisdom wouldnt have done much at all. The racial, well, not sure about that one, some temporary stun defense, might have been useful in rare occasions.
Dont get me started on Dark Elf. That would be +4 Strength, +1 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +1 Wisdom, +4 Intelligence. No point in Wisdom boost, hardly any effect of extra Dexterity. And the racial ? An AC boost that was capped even in decent normal gear plus group buffs already, let alone with full raid buffs. Plus to get it you had to go through a real hassle, too.
Goblins got a pretty awesome raid racial, so maybe that would have been nice. The stats though would suck.
All in all - yes I'm sure Qualiathari was the strongest possible race pick for this class. Also for Paladin. In fact I quickly loved that racial so much many of my other characters suddenly turned arab, too, lolz.
I don't mind race restricted classes at all I think it makes the classes really worth playing because you have to sacrifice your preferred look for the class. It also makes sense lore-wise that certain classes can only be played by certain races.
"Bard and Necro are not official launch classes but we included them
anyway as we are working hard on trying to make them launch classes,
please don't hate us if we can't get them ready in time, though! "
I don't mind race restricted classes at all I think it makes the
classes really worth playing because you have to sacrifice your
preferred look for the class. It also makes sense lore-wise that certain
classes can only be played by certain races.
Doesnt help you one bit if you want to play a certain class and race combo and theres no good reason why you shouldnt except some random interpretation of some dev.
Otherwise, good list. Looking forward to playing Pantheon.
Humans have access to far too many classes.
I know it is a fantasy game and that they are making their own world, so the lore and other aspects can justify the class / race combinations they presented, so I am not disputing their choices, but if it was up to me, I would really take magic away from humans.
Human ranger, fighter, rogue, etc. all make sense, but a human wizard just feels weird. Where have primates learned to cast fireballs?
I find it weird.
How is that weird? I personally think it would be stupid to do that.
How is it not...I mean...its humans.
You do not see Aragorn telling Gandalf to step aside and blasting fireballs at his enemies .
No seriously, I understand that every fantasy world / lore is different, so you can have humans somehow learning magic, but why do you need that when you have a number of fantasy races for whom it is more natural to be able to cast spells.
EQ1 Vanguard and now Pantheon are heavily influenced by DnD. I think Brad must have played it allot as a youth. Funny you use LotR as it followed the same lore. Humans are the most diverse of the races. Never the strongest, smartest or agile. Just the best at diversity of classes/schools of learning.
Played a lot of AD&D and also my favorite MUDs were AD&D based.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
Race/class restrictions just make sure that every Elf is a Bard or Mage....
They promote less diversity, not more. They are boring, quite frankly.
Edit: Also pretty sure that the most beloved characters from the forgotten realms are those who break away from the racial norms. Pikel Bouldershoulder, the dwarven druid for example. The argument that a dwarf can't be a mage "just because" is lazy. It takes much more brain power to figure out how your character came to be than it does to simply deny the possibility. So, sure...if you're too simple-minded to create a narrative that doesn't fit the cookie-cutter, racial restrictions are totally necessary Read more at http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/440537/racial-class-restrictions/p2#sxjD2VdtxOKfE1ff.99
Comments
Rift has one of the best bards in recent years at least.
Now Necromancers those fine upstanding citizens are truly a must at launch, as they do mostly what a Bard can do, but without all that singing and carrying on like a 17th century Rake loaded up on crushed fly and beetle wings.
Seriously though, happy with a Eq1 or better still Vanguard Necro, but for the love of Jebus no NO NO to the EQ2 one.
But I meant everything I said about slutty Bards.
In EQ1 lore, Ogre's became so powerful that they conquered most of the known universe. So the God's struck them down and twisted their minds to make them dumb. So as to keep them in check. IMO high fantasy does not always need to be cookie cutter.
No Elf Paladin or Cleric?
I understand the need to experiment a bit but the whole Elf Race is a bit disappointing.
You lumped the Wood Elves and the High Elves together, which is fine but you didn't include all the High Elves trademark Classes which are the Paladin and the Cleric.
Instead I see a lot of Caster Classes, I never considered Elves to be Masters of the Arcane (Enchanter, Summoner, Wizard really?).
Shamans are also not a good fit IMO, they exploit nature to support their Magic while Elves work with it and protect it.
Anyway there is enough diversity to fit every play style which is what MMOs desperately need today. I pretty much know what I am going for already, my Main would be an Ogre Warrior, followed by a Gnome Enchanter, a Skar Necromancer and an Elf Cleric (Please
EQ1 Vanguard and now Pantheon are heavily influenced by DnD. I think Brad must have played it allot as a youth. Funny you use LotR as it followed the same lore. Humans are the most diverse of the races. Never the strongest, smartest or agile. Just the best at diversity of classes/schools of learning.
Why are you okay with, for example, an elf pulling a fireball out of mid-air but not a human? It's stupid and unreal no matter who is doing it. How is it "more natural" for a gnome to yank a lightning bolt out of the sky and throw it at someone than for a human?
These are not Earth-based humans who stepped through a portal into a fantasy land and could suddenly throw fireballs. These humans were born and bred in a world full of magic. So, logic would dictate that they would be inherently more magical than a normal human and have a greater affinity for spellcasting.
Feel your pain, then I realised that the Skar are the new Iksar and that necro's will arrive, well arrive, more turn up when they damn well please and I then got a semi wood elf................Phrasing
Apparently Dark Myr are really just Dark Elves, at least from the list of classes available to them.
P.s.: If I would make a list, I would probably do something more like:
Archai - Cleric, Dire Lord, Druid, Monk, Ranger, Shaman, Summoner, Wizard - All classes with possible Elemental Themes; no plain nonmagical classes (Rogue/Warrior)
Dark Myr - Bard, Cleric, Dire Lord, Enchanter, Monk, Necromancer, Rogue, Summoner, Wizard - All classes with possible Evil and Magic theme, and also Rogue
Dwarf - Bard, Cleric, Dire Lord, Enchanter, Monk, Paladin, Rogue, Warrior - All Tank classes, most Trickster classes (not Ranger), one Healer (Cleric), one Mage (Enchanter)
Elf - Bard, Cleric, Druid, Enchanter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Shaman, Summoner, Wizard - All magic and light classes, all tricksters
Halfling - Bard, Cleric, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard - Light themed, all tricksters, one of each of the others (Paladin, Cleric, Wizard)
Human - All but one or two classes, maybe not Druid and Shaman ?
Gnome - Enchanter, Monk, Rogue, Summoner, Wizard - All arcane magic classes, primarily physical trickster classes, no tank, no healer (due to being some kind of sentient golem)
Ogre - Dire Lord, Monk, Shaman, Summoner, Warrior - Brute classes
Skar - Bard, Cleric, Monk, Necromancer, Rogue, Warrior, Wizard - Insectlike Trolls => Evil Military classes
I'm cool with that part, actually.
None of the existing healer and tank classes match too well with the concept of magical golems.
Thus IMHO Gnomes should get a magic tank class at a later point (for example the Inquisitor that never was realized in Vanguard), and an arcane magic healer class (like Vanguards Blood Mage).
I'm much more concerned with WHY EVERY SINGLE OTHER RACE gets to play Warrior. IMHO Warriors are NOT a good choice for a common denominator class. Specifically elves shouldnt be Warrior. Elves should be Fighter/Mage, and Paladin. Dark Myr, as they are a kind of alternative Darkelf / Mermaid mix, shouldnt be Warrior. I dont think Archai have anything in them that suggests Warrior, either. Halfling as Warriors, well thats a bit borderline, but its an especially cool combo, since thats the smallest of the races, so I might keep that.
Humans have definitely been one of the strongest races in Vanguard. They couldnt get as high SINGLE stats as other races - but they would get just as many points as anybody else and they could raise ANY stat nicely, while the other races got stuck in a fixed bonus. Specifically humans got 14 points to distribute with up to +5 in any stat, while other races got 10 points to distribute with up to +4 in any stat, plus a fixed 4 points they couldnt change, such as for example +3 Strength, +1 Constitution for Lesser Giant etc.
I played Qaliathari (Arab) Human Dread Knight and that race pick was simply friggin awesome. I could skill all three stats I needed for the DK needed in optimal distribution (+5 Strength, +5 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, later for raids I switched to +4 Strength, +5 Constitution, +5 Intelligence because Strength capped anyway) and I got a racial ability that was insanely powerful (a 10 second invul on a 15 or 30 min recast timer, dont remember which exactly), already very helpful during normal adventuring and simply priceless during raiding. A very persistent advantage, no matter the level, gear or situation.
What could I have had otherwise ? Well Lesser Giant would have been able to get +7 Strength, +5 Constitution, +2 Intelligence. The effect of that much Strength ? It would have simply capped during raids. And the racial sounded great on paper but the hitpoint boost was so small when it really mattered it didnt made that much difference.
Orc could have gotten +6 Strength, +6 Constitution, +2 Intelligence. Not bad. The racial though was pretty useless for Dread Knight (lifetap).
Dwarf would have gotten +4 Strength, +7 Constitution, +1 Wisdom, +2 Intelligence. The hitpoints would have been sweet for sure. The Wisdom wouldnt have done much at all. The racial, well, not sure about that one, some temporary stun defense, might have been useful in rare occasions.
Dont get me started on Dark Elf. That would be +4 Strength, +1 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +1 Wisdom, +4 Intelligence. No point in Wisdom boost, hardly any effect of extra Dexterity. And the racial ? An AC boost that was capped even in decent normal gear plus group buffs already, let alone with full raid buffs. Plus to get it you had to go through a real hassle, too.
Goblins got a pretty awesome raid racial, so maybe that would have been nice. The stats though would suck.
All in all - yes I'm sure Qualiathari was the strongest possible race pick for this class. Also for Paladin. In fact I quickly loved that racial so much many of my other characters suddenly turned arab, too, lolz.
Idea:
Give Ashen Elf (High Elf inspired) and Ember Elf (Wood Elf) different class lists ?
For example:
Ashen Elf: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Enchanter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Summoner, Wizard
Ember Elf: Bard, Druid, Enchanter, Ranger, Rogue, Shaman, Warrior, Wizard
Bards and Necromancer apparently will be added later. From the official posting:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5228/pantheon-class-and-race-combinations
"Bard and Necro are not official launch classes but we included them anyway as we are working hard on trying to make them launch classes, please don't hate us if we can't get them ready in time, though!
Doesnt help you one bit if you want to play a certain class and race combo and theres no good reason why you shouldnt except some random interpretation of some dev.
Played a lot of AD&D and also my favorite MUDs were AD&D based.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
They promote less diversity, not more. They are boring, quite frankly.
Edit: Also pretty sure that the most beloved characters from the forgotten realms are those who break away from the racial norms. Pikel Bouldershoulder, the dwarven druid for example.
The argument that a dwarf can't be a mage "just because" is lazy. It takes much more brain power to figure out how your character came to be than it does to simply deny the possibility. So, sure...if you're too simple-minded to create a narrative that doesn't fit the cookie-cutter, racial restrictions are totally necessary
Read more at http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/440537/racial-class-restrictions/p2#sxjD2VdtxOKfE1ff.99