Is probably the same problem we have always had with mmos...
mmo's are becoming increasingly solo centric, to the point that other players just create an obstacle. mmo's need to start taking on some of the popular characteristics of solo games.
In short, if mmos are going to survive and thrive they need to get rid of other players.
Please share your thoughts...
I used to play ESO. I just quit because 75% of the player base are aholes. This is the biggest problem of modern mmo's. I went back to EQ2 and i'm having a blast because the player base is older and are loyal and helpful to each other. The older mmo's that are still up have a more mature player base and they always seem to want to help anyone new to the game. I go out of my way to find mmo's with smaller older players now. And old school mmo's cover this nicely. Forget the flashy newer mmo's.
This has been the issue with MMORPGs for the past 8-10 years or so. It's the issue I've repeatedly pointed out here.
A bad game is playable with good people. A good game is borderline unplayable with bad people. Soloing and taking 10x as long to level is no big deal when you have nice, mature people to chat with (or duo/trio with, even if the XP is horrible). This is why people could deal with EQ back in the day. Yes, the forced groupie was in optimal to some. Yes, the solo leveling progression (for most classes) was terrible... However, a large part of the entertainment in those older MMORPGs wasn't the game itself, but the social interaction within the game.
Even when you weren't online to XP, it was still worth it to log in just for the social interaction (when you didn't have real-life commitments). The games these days are task-driven. The emphasis is on multi-player only in terms of getting the item, flag, key, whatever that you need. Then, you either log off or you go solo more "World Quests" or whatever.
The big issue many have with MMORPGs is not that they are bad, per se. It's that they are horrible from a social standpoint. They are like animated Twitter, these days. ESO is such a bad "MMORPG" that they are now trying to act like it was never meant to be a "true MMORPG."
Some people boggle at why players are clinging onto old games like EQ, and "failures" like EQ2. It's the people. That's why. If they cannot find mature, pleasant communities in other games, then the games are a lot less playable to them - regardless of technical merit. All games end up being ugly after some time. It's an MMORPG. These aren't "get it, beat it in a week, and resale" titles...
The obsession with "solo feats" in current games is nothing more than the reflection of the change that has happened in this genre's demographics. Frankly, most people want it that way, so why shouldn't they be that way? The people who want it otherwise are a distant minority.
This is why I don't think games like Pantheon are going to be nearly as "groundbreaking" (not that it's possible, it's basically an EQ clone) as many are hoping. Unless all of those people who liked EQ either move directly to Pantheon or come out of "retirement," it's doomed to be quite niche. The market for PvE MMORPGs that require job-like dedication to progression... just for character levels... and ties your progression to other people's willingness to group without is extremely small.
People put up with this because there was not much choice back in the day and it seemed like a decent value proposition to them at that time. I'm not even sure I could justify this, these days. I quit Lineage II, for example, because the dependence on groups for decent XP and the hard leveling curve made the game feel like a job - and that's ignoring PvP (which I largely gave up on after deciding not to grind XP for 6-8 hours a day).
I do think that "levels" is an outdated concept. I think leveling should be easy, but I think a deep talent tree/AA System devoid of obsessive power creep and deep content with good progression schemes are better. A good crafting system helps, as well. What I mean to say, is that the focus should be off of leveling and onto post-leveling advancement. That way the community can largely play together, but there is still a sense of progression.
It seems like a lot of people revolt at WoW's fast cosmopolitan leveling, when the leveling itself isn't the issue. It's the fact that there isn't much after leveling that matters. They have sort of attacked this with the artifact weapons, but I think that's a fairly obviously flawed system (and may agree). Something similar to EQ's AA system is more akin to what I'm speaking about, but this will require the developers to keep ample tab on the balance of AAs to avoid excessive power creep.
Whether there is a problem with modern MMOs or not is rather subjective. Sure, we could try to use statistics about player retention, play time, etc to compare games and their business models, but for us posters I think it really comes down to personal experience. Most of us here are not MMO developers or publishers. We play games and discuss our reactions.
I think that any problem we experience with MMOs, or games in general, are a result of a combination of the things already mentioned in this thread. When I play a game, many things affect my experience:
The game's design (mechanics, visuals, story, etc.),
My particular interests at the time,
The amount (and quality) of time I can and choose to put into the experience,
Other forms of entertainment competing for my attention (other MMOs, games in general, other hobbies, etc.),
The game's community (developer's target audience, friends, etc.)
I feel that this is true of a lot of things, not just MMOs. Game design philosophy can shift over time, as old limits are tested, ideas grow stagnant, the market gets crowded, and people's demands change.
Our interests can and often do change, and that affects the community. I used to play RTS religiously, but rarely do anymore. It just doesn't draw me in like it used to. Some of my friends still play, but my changing interests affects them as well. This is even more obvious in MMOs. Guild members moving on to other things changes the experience you have when you log on. Sure, new blood can sometimes replace those who leave, but new blood also brings in new ideas and interests that can change the experience entirely.
I no longer have the time I used to have to devote to gaming. Between work and family, my personal time must get divided between things I enjoy doing (reading, gaming, sailing, etc). I try to include my family in my gaming, as it can be a shared experience, but that also means adjusting my expectations (it also means waiting for the little one to grow). Then there are times I am playing but my mind is preoccupied with the happenings of the day. I really didn't have the same responsibilities when I was 16, and I could simply let loose and game for hours. Now, I may have an hour to kill, but I also have the baby monitor on, next to me. It kills immersion, but it is sooooo worth it!
Don't get me wrong, I have opinions about the way MMOs are designed, the issue of group vs solo content, instancing and phasing, fast travel, leveling and end game, character/gear progression, tab-targeted vs action or twitch combat, you name it. But in all honesty, I wouldn't be able to devote the time I did ten years ago to any game today, whether I liked it or not. So I find what works for me now, which means I am suddenly in a different demographic than I used to be. Certain forms of in-game conveniences become acceptable, because it means I can bash a few monsters or other players over the head in the little time I have to play. Are these games less immersive? Have I made less friends in them than before? Sure, but as I mentioned earlier, the only thing I am truly immersed in at the moment is being a father. Everything else, including my musings on here, is just for fun.
To me it's not so much about the content being soloable or not, it's about providing a compelling reason to interact with others through the economy, PVP, or general socialization. All those systems of interdependency should be designed with the mindset that they're all interconnected rather than seperate contrived mechanics you're obligated to put in your game to meet the MMO criteria. SWG had that with the entertainer system, the decentralized economy, the TEF (temporary enemy flag) that encouraged spontaneous pvp, and all the various services that players could provide for one another. Granted it wasnt a perfect mesh but the important thing is the effort was consciously made to get players to care about their interactions without really forcing anyone to do so. You could play the game solo without grouping no problem.
With modern MMOs they are not designed with any thought being actually given to these areas. Auction house, check. Group dungeon, check. Trade with players, check. There you go m8 MMO. You can develop actual social features in your game that are not intrusive if you want to. The problem is that takes focus, and there's only so much development time that can go into a game, and developers feel their time would be better served by making new prefabricated content rather than enhance the ability for players to be the content. Because without all that initial content that can be actively played and digested the game will not end up attracting the transient audience that the developer is going for. So by marketing to that transient target audience, the opportunity is missed to develop and encourage an actual community.
Lets face it the gamer of 2017 is different from the gamer of 2000....They want it solo, easy, and instant
YIKES !!!
Talk about yourself.
I want the exact same thing 2017 as I wanted 2000. Challenge and complexity.
I want MMOs I can play longtime. I want maxlevel to be basically unreachable, I want complex challenging classes that are hard to master, I want dynamic combat that keeps you thinking what ability to use next.
In my experience the problem with many games is the homogenization. Along with other things of course. When I first got into MMOs I played NexusTK {I mention this often I am aware} Mages were wanted for their crowd control. Priests were wanted for healing. Warriors for tanking and Rogues for DPS. That is what it is. If you wanted a specific trait you were only one of those things. Now each class can often do two things or even more in WoW. When you spread these abilities you water down the mechanics in some ways. Its not a problem per say but it does break it down some and can contribute to the tearing of that vale.
Another issue is that games tend to follow the same routes. level via dungeons & quests and that's it. After years of this style of play the younger crowd tends to get hungry for change. Why not level by crafting? Why not pvp? These aspects are in some games to a degree but the MMO companies could really take advantage of this concept and bring in a new way to play that would increase the population of the MMOs by making trader classes. Imagine quests were you could get xp by earning receipts from selling items and turning in the receipts. What about Jousting tourneys? it would fit in with many games. There needs to be more flexibility in these games.
I once considered making an MMO but Im more of an idea guy and not a programmer by any means. Not to mention I am terrible at business. I have ideas that could {in my deluded mind of course} change the very nature of whats wrong with MMOs.
They started with dice and paper by "nerds" that seek adventure in the unknown. if you think of it this way its easy to see that the unknown is gone. The worlds are easily known and thus looses the excitement of discovery. Of course I have long winded ideas on how to change that but... bla bla bla..
Another aspect is inns. Why is there nothing to do at the tables in the inns? Games are to limited..
I'm seeking a firefly type game. If anyone knows a place in the verse were I can be a big damned hero let me know.
Is probably the same problem we have always had with mmos...
mmo's are becoming increasingly solo centric, to the point that other players just create an obstacle. mmo's need to start taking on some of the popular characteristics of solo games.
In short, if mmos are going to survive and thrive they need to get rid of other players.
Please share your thoughts...
I used to play ESO. I just quit because 75% of the player base are aholes. This is the biggest problem of modern mmo's. I went back to EQ2 and i'm having a blast because the player base is older and are loyal and helpful to each other. The older mmo's that are still up have a more mature player base and they always seem to want to help anyone new to the game. I go out of my way to find mmo's with smaller older players now. And old school mmo's cover this nicely. Forget the flashy newer mmo's.
This has been the issue with MMORPGs for the past 8-10 years or so. It's the issue I've repeatedly pointed out here.
A bad game is playable with good people. A good game is borderline unplayable with bad people. Soloing and taking 10x as long to level is no big deal when you have nice, mature people to chat with (or duo/trio with, even if the XP is horrible). This is why people could deal with EQ back in the day. Yes, the forced groupie was in optimal to some. Yes, the solo leveling progression (for most classes) was terrible... However, a large part of the entertainment in those older MMORPGs wasn't the game itself, but the social interaction within the game.
Even when you weren't online to XP, it was still worth it to log in just for the social interaction (when you didn't have real-life commitments). The games these days are task-driven. The emphasis is on multi-player only in terms of getting the item, flag, key, whatever that you need. Then, you either log off or you go solo more "World Quests" or whatever.
The big issue many have with MMORPGs is not that they are bad, per se. It's that they are horrible from a social standpoint. They are like animated Twitter, these days. ESO is such a bad "MMORPG" that they are now trying to act like it was never meant to be a "true MMORPG."
Some people boggle at why players are clinging onto old games like EQ, and "failures" like EQ2. It's the people. That's why. If they cannot find mature, pleasant communities in other games, then the games are a lot less playable to them - regardless of technical merit. All games end up being ugly after some time. It's an MMORPG. These aren't "get it, beat it in a week, and resale" titles...
The obsession with "solo feats" in current games is nothing more than the reflection of the change that has happened in this genre's demographics. Frankly, most people want it that way, so why shouldn't they be that way? The people who want it otherwise are a distant minority.
This is why I don't think games like Pantheon are going to be nearly as "groundbreaking" (not that it's possible, it's basically an EQ clone) as many are hoping. Unless all of those people who liked EQ either move directly to Pantheon or come out of "retirement," it's doomed to be quite niche. The market for PvE MMORPGs that require job-like dedication to progression... just for character levels... and ties your progression to other people's willingness to group without is extremely small.
People put up with this because there was not much choice back in the day and it seemed like a decent value proposition to them at that time. I'm not even sure I could justify this, these days. I quit Lineage II, for example, because the dependence on groups for decent XP and the hard leveling curve made the game feel like a job - and that's ignoring PvP (which I largely gave up on after deciding not to grind XP for 6-8 hours a day).
I do think that "levels" is an outdated concept. I think leveling should be easy, but I think a deep talent tree/AA System devoid of obsessive power creep and deep content with good progression schemes are better. A good crafting system helps, as well. What I mean to say, is that the focus should be off of leveling and onto post-leveling advancement. That way the community can largely play together, but there is still a sense of progression.
It seems like a lot of people revolt at WoW's fast cosmopolitan leveling, when the leveling itself isn't the issue. It's the fact that there isn't much after leveling that matters. They have sort of attacked this with the artifact weapons, but I think that's a fairly obviously flawed system (and may agree). Something similar to EQ's AA system is more akin to what I'm speaking about, but this will require the developers to keep ample tab on the balance of AAs to avoid excessive power creep.
Very well said my friend. You nailed what i feel about modern mmo's. Its funny when i play new games i always wonder where the social hub is and non of them have one. My first mmo was Anarchy Online. Every city was a social hub. People would login to see what was going on in a city on the weekends. You would find player held events everywhere because some people loved roleplay. Todays games are nothing more than about getting the best gear no time to sit back and enjoy the game world. I don't blame it on just the devs for this. Its how this generation of gamer's play and think.
Lets face it the gamer of 2017 is different from the gamer of 2000....They want it solo, easy, and instant
This is the exact problem with the majority of people who want to be MMORPG gamers. This is also why the Crowd funded MMORPGs are moving away from this crowd.
Not every game should make everyone happy and it is impossible to do so. Add to that Yes MMORPGs are broken, if you dont like grouping with people you dont belong playing them. I dont care if that pisses you off or not, the social aspect of MMORPGs is WHAT built the entire genera. Not WOW with LFD/LFR and easy feed content. During Vanilla WOW they didnt have to market the game because the game was so good, it required people to group to accomplish certain content and you didnt have automated grouping tools. It was people like myself that brought friends and new people to the game because the game was good.
The problem is the misguided players of today that think that everything today is just great and you need LFD/LFR tools in every game, and content that is /follow easy, and players who think everything should be soloed. These players keep thinking that EVERYTHING is better since old MMORPGs required time and social skills.
OH YEAH, social skills were needed for older MMO's . 'AYUP, I am a TANK, LFG. IAM A HEAL, LFG. I am a pew pew, LFG.' OH yeah, that is really social. *sarcasm off*
Sounds like you never played any other game than WOW. Did you ever have to take on a player run base that wound only go vulnerable on a random day and time and need to organize 18 guilds to help take out the Imp Base? What about making sure the players going have the best weapons (rocket launchers for my Commando Team) and Armor? O wait you wouldnt know that you just think in WOW terms of dungeons because thats all you know.
I never played WoW - so I guess that blows your opinion of me and what you REALLY KNOW. Rift was like that, Allods Online, I could go on.
People always say, "The good ol' days of MMO's were much better!' but people really it is the same ol' same ol'.
People on this board, sound like my parents, ' Oh this new music is so noisy and makes no sense! Bring back the good ol' songs'. RIGHT - like....
I remember and still do , although not needed as much now, but old DAOC days where you actually had to co ordinate or you l wipe. 8 group members, which usually consisted of a tank an off tank a healer a buffer/de buffer/ back up heals, a CC or 2, a puller, and 2-3 dps. If you didn t do your job , you failed. Now it s just mash buttons as quickly as possible, and generally it doesn t matter what ones you even hit.
I like some newer MMOs, and don t have the time to play them I once did, but as far as a social experience because you actually had to talk/communicate, and taking a lot more co ordination or any at all, yes they were better in those aspects back in the day.
I remember and still do , although not needed as much now, but old DAOC days where you actually had to co ordinate or you l wipe. 8 group members, which usually consisted of a tank an off tank a healer a buffer/de buffer/ back up heals, a CC or 2, a puller, and 2-3 dps. If you didn t do your job , you failed. Now it s just mash buttons as quickly as possible, and generally it doesn t matter what ones you even hit.
I like some newer MMOs, and don t have the time to play them I once did, but as far as a social experience because you actually had to talk/communicate, and taking a lot more co ordination or any at all, yes they were better in those aspects back in the day.
Most of the time, it was just learning the boss 'tells' etc. and then just following a pattern. It wasn't hard and they were boring as all the other RAIDS. No communication was really needed. People who say that was communication well, it wasn't.
I remember and still do , although not needed as much now, but old DAOC days where you actually had to co ordinate or you l wipe. 8 group members, which usually consisted of a tank an off tank a healer a buffer/de buffer/ back up heals, a CC or 2, a puller, and 2-3 dps. If you didn t do your job , you failed. Now it s just mash buttons as quickly as possible, and generally it doesn t matter what ones you even hit.
I like some newer MMOs, and don t have the time to play them I once did, but as far as a social experience because you actually had to talk/communicate, and taking a lot more co ordination or any at all, yes they were better in those aspects back in the day.
Most of the time, it was just learning the boss 'tells' etc. and then just following a pattern. It wasn't hard and they were boring as all the other RAIDS. No communication was really needed. People who say that was communication well, it wasn't.
Don t agree at all. If you ever ran Darkness Falls , you would know how wrong you are.
I remember and still do , although not needed as much now, but old DAOC days where you actually had to co ordinate or you l wipe. 8 group members, which usually consisted of a tank an off tank a healer a buffer/de buffer/ back up heals, a CC or 2, a puller, and 2-3 dps. If you didn t do your job , you failed. Now it s just mash buttons as quickly as possible, and generally it doesn t matter what ones you even hit.
I like some newer MMOs, and don t have the time to play them I once did, but as far as a social experience because you actually had to talk/communicate, and taking a lot more co ordination or any at all, yes they were better in those aspects back in the day.
Most of the time, it was just learning the boss 'tells' etc. and then just following a pattern. It wasn't hard and they were boring as all the other RAIDS. No communication was really needed. People who say that was communication well, it wasn't.
Which game are you referring to, certainly not DAOC.
Been playing it recently (in the old school fashion) and if you listen to the cadence of the team as it works through a camp there is definitely communication. (voice chat being very helpful vs back in 2002)
It starts with the puller stating the targets and how many are incoming. The tanks chime in identifying what they are picking up, and the crowd controllers keep everything else in place, reporting which targets are on 1st, 2nd, 3rd mezz, which resisted (which the off tanks peel from the CC3er's) and when all else fails, is rooted) while the rest of the group burns down the primary targets.
The healers report on when insta's are burned, timers till they return, power consumption, use of mana recovery abilities etc. My character plays a hybrid role, so during it all I monitor health of mezzers/healers, HOT heal them as needed (no aggro), Stun in a panic situation and do damage either solo or AOE as the situation requires, and I keep the group informed on what my focus currently is)
Of course, when it all looks like it's going into the pot, (usually happens when the puller says, "someone hold my beer, and watch this" ) the group coordinates who will run, disband and log off, and who stays and fights to the end so at least one rezzer can get away to prevent a full wipe.
I haven't had to coordinate like this since my raiding days with WOW which I'm sure is still done, but all of the above is just part of our day to day game play for most every pull.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am going to pick on the people who say they dont have the same time as they use to 10 years ago crowd, and maybe the crowd that feels that they deserve to have something to do whenever they hell they want. I am going to be tough however I will not be disrespectful.
The Truth of the matter is people who say they don't have time because of real life, and people that feel they need something everytime that want it are honestly the problem in MMORPGs. The reason why is obvious and they do have valid points however they are too self centered. MMORPGs take a massive budget for the most part and take very long development cycles, they are not games like Dragon Age or neverwinter nights which can be developed in a year or 2 on cheap budgets. MMORPGs take 5+ years to design and develop and constantly need bug fixes, and work to keep customers playing. They cannot cater to the players who want fast convenient content, it just cannot be done because the amount of development work that goes into MMORPGs. The reason why back before easy fast paced MMORPGs were so successful AND very profitable (Before WOW and WOW) was because you were expected to spend a lot of time to achieve something. You were not on a Treadmill like you are today.
In Today's MMORPGs you spend several days a week just to log on and cap points so you can buy gear so you can move onto the next tier of gear. This is dont expressly to satisfy the I dont have time group or the group that always wants exactly what they want. Yet you end up finishing the last tier of content within a month maybe two and having nothing else in the game to complete, you get bored and move onto the next game to do the same thing. These games yes are making money but the margin of profit is much much lower than it was before the Treadmill started. Over time you became bored but stick to the fact that well you MUST have these convenience tools because the old way well you couldnt keep up with it because the old way was more demanding and required months before you could get what you wanted.
Yet you might or might not have achieved what you wanted before easy and fast content was given to you. The problem is you FEEL that since you paid your $15 for the month it should be EASY for you. Why? Because you are self centered and think the game should revolve around you and your lack of time or willingness to spend time achieving something. Part of the problem is MMORPGs fault because WOW it took you 6 months or more to complete MC and most raiders never got all their MC gear or seen BWL. That is because WOW came out with the expansions way to fast. Vanilla could have easily lasted 12 to 18 months more with very little boredom. Why do I say that? Because you still could have been working on more and better gear with new content, you wouldnt have felt rushed so if you took 3 months off you could have found a group to join that was slower than others. But you ended up feeling rushed because Blizzard rushed to put TBC to market to make more money.
While you are right that easier faster content NEEDS to be implemented if expansions are done at a 2 year or shorter pace. That is not what MMORPGs of the future need to be like and no they should not cater to people with the lack of time. They should have mechanics to help out new and returning players, BUT they should not cater to the people unwilling to make friends in game that are willing to help out and that also respect you as a person. Also if new expansions are done at a fast rate they should not completely replace your hard earned gear that took you 6 months to get in days or weeks. It should also also not make you feel that rushing to end game is the ONLY content to be concerned about because when a game is nearly all end game focused and focused on only 2 aspects players will expect to always have a group for these 2 aspects. No you should be expected to make friends and group up with people to do many different things in an MMORPG and help one another achieve together the many things an MMORPG can give you as content. Not just Raids and Arenas.
For example if you look at Ashes of Creation, they have a system where players can work together to build a castle and not every person will have a castle. It will also take teamwork to do and you will need to befriends and respect each other because the amount of time it will take to build a castle. If you end up not working together as a team you will lose all the work you put into the castle. It's up to you and that castle will not become obsolete the very next expansion. Also your gear will not be come obsolete as fast the very next expansion. Everything will take time and even if you do not have the same amount of time as you had 10 years ago, that does not mean you cannot achieve what you want in the game. It means 2 things, One you need to not be self centered on its all about you; you need to make friends and yes find like minded people. And two understand it will not be done in a few weeks or a month. It should take you more time BUT that does not mean you will replace what you want fast when you achieve your goal, it just means you need to set a new goal and achieve the next. The game should not be about you and how fast you achieve something its about how you interact with other people and pace yourself on achieving that goal.
This is why new MMORPGs are focusing on OLD school design. It's because MMORPGs are expensive and take a lot of time to develop. You cannot just throw some crap together and make it work. You should be expected to be a part of the work and take time to achieve your goals. This Genera does not work otherwise and you can see that in today's MMOs. They are all just rides for you to spend a lot of money on for a fast few week ride until the next new ride comes out, then move to the next. This formula is not working, many see this AND many are tired of this. Only the people who like this formula defend it. But ask yourself why no new AAA MMORPGs are coming out? Because it is no longer profitable in a large margin anymore if any profit is to be made.
The next generation will have old school ways and expect you to be a part of the world. Yes it will have some mechanics for casual scheduled players. It will also have catch up mechanics. BUT they will not focus on fast easy content like we have today. These games will expect you to either do or do not, there will be no try.
Not every game should make everyone happy and it is impossible to do so. Add to that Yes MMORPGs are broken, if you dont like grouping with people you dont belong playing them. I dont care if that pisses you off or not, the social aspect of MMORPGs is WHAT built the entire genera. Not WOW with LFD/LFR and easy feed content. During Vanilla WOW they didnt have to market the game because the game was so good, it required people to group to accomplish certain content and you didnt have automated grouping tools. It was people like myself that brought friends and new people to the game because the game was good.
The problem is the misguided players of today that think that everything today is just great and you need LFD/LFR tools in every game, and content that is /follow easy, and players who think everything should be soloed. These players keep thinking that EVERYTHING is better since old MMORPGs required time and social skills.
OH YEAH, social skills were needed for older MMO's . 'AYUP, I am a TANK, LFG. IAM A HEAL, LFG. I am a pew pew, LFG.' OH yeah, that is really social. *sarcasm off*
Sounds like you never played any other game than WOW. Did you ever have to take on a player run base that wound only go vulnerable on a random day and time and need to organize 18 guilds to help take out the Imp Base? What about making sure the players going have the best weapons (rocket launchers for my Commando Team) and Armor? O wait you wouldnt know that you just think in WOW terms of dungeons because thats all you know.
I never played WoW - so I guess that blows your opinion of me and what you REALLY KNOW. Rift was like that, Allods Online, I could go on.
People always say, "The good ol' days of MMO's were much better!' but people really it is the same ol' same ol'.
People on this board, sound like my parents, ' Oh this new music is so noisy and makes no sense! Bring back the good ol' songs'. RIGHT - like....
Sorry but the truth is you really dont know you can play it off as you know, but you dont know. Rift and Allods both were release 5+ years AFTER WOW was released so yes they wouldnt have the REAL feel of old school. So you are not comparing TRUE Pre-2005 community so yea your are wrong because you dont know because you were not there. And YES your parents are right. You know how I know? At 18 I thought I knew everything and was piss n vinegar I am twice that age now and I hate to say it, but yes my parents were right even though I thought them wrong on many of things. I am just glad I didnt suffer for my lack of experience and my stupid decisions.
O and BTW, I can tell you how much better it was growing up in a time before cell phones where you had to go to each of your friends downs to get a hockey game or a football game going. It took time, you would find out what your friends were up to and go out and play at the park or behind a firehouse. To break someones car window accidentally and then have to pony up the money to fix it. You kids today didnt experience that I see it in my step daughter, if her friends dont text her back when she wants to do something she does not go over their house and find out. She relies on a tool to figure out what she is going to do instead of going and socializing and learning how the world works.
So yes I know how this shit works and you dont. You can have an opinion BUT because you truly dont know and have not experienced something does not give you the proper understanding therefor your opinion is only valid when you take that into account and attempt to put yourself in that time. Otherwises you are just flapping your gums because you think you know, problem is you dont because you never truly experienced it.
I remember and still do , although not needed as much now, but old DAOC days where you actually had to co ordinate or you l wipe. 8 group members, which usually consisted of a tank an off tank a healer a buffer/de buffer/ back up heals, a CC or 2, a puller, and 2-3 dps. If you didn t do your job , you failed. Now it s just mash buttons as quickly as possible, and generally it doesn t matter what ones you even hit.
I like some newer MMOs, and don t have the time to play them I once did, but as far as a social experience because you actually had to talk/communicate, and taking a lot more co ordination or any at all, yes they were better in those aspects back in the day.
Most of the time, it was just learning the boss 'tells' etc. and then just following a pattern. It wasn't hard and they were boring as all the other RAIDS. No communication was really needed. People who say that was communication well, it wasn't.
Don t agree at all. If you ever ran Darkness Falls , you would know how wrong you are.
I do not agree with Soki123 often but I agree with him here. People who didnt experience old school games pre-2005 really do not know what the hell they are talking about. If you were not there during that time period you honestly DO not know. You just think you do because you played WOW, or just like in @botrytis case here compares RIFT to DAOC. There is NO comparisons in today's MMORPGs even if you play UO today to what UO was like in 1998 or 2001 or DAOC in 2003. You think it was all "LF TANK" in a chat channel because well thats what WOW was like or RIFT was like. Nope.
In UO when they brought in Champion spawns I would know about it because I was at Brit bank and seen someone running through and saying "Champion Spawn Delucia Phase 1". Then I would recall to my house get my 2 friends that were online, send a message over ICQ to my friends group then gate to Delucia to do the champion spawn. 10 to 50 people would end up coming to the Champion spawn at any giving time, my friend I and would be killing shit with all these people. Sometimes Reds would come in and see my friend who was a well known PKer on the server and the reds would run because they wouldn't want to take him on again and get their asses handed to them. More people would show and some more friends. We would be chatting on TS2 while having a good time. The Champion would come out and we would kill it and take all the gold that dropped.
There were times where my friends would help me mine around Minco which was dangerous because of Water Elementals. I would talk to them to see when they would be able to help me. For their services I would give them sets of gear when ever they needed it or I would repair their gear.
This is just a fraction of what happened in PRE-2005 MMORPGS. You do not get this in today's MMORPGs because they are so focused on the self centered player.
Not every game should make everyone happy and it is impossible to do so. Add to that Yes MMORPGs are broken, if you dont like grouping with people you dont belong playing them. I dont care if that pisses you off or not, the social aspect of MMORPGs is WHAT built the entire genera. Not WOW with LFD/LFR and easy feed content. During Vanilla WOW they didnt have to market the game because the game was so good, it required people to group to accomplish certain content and you didnt have automated grouping tools. It was people like myself that brought friends and new people to the game because the game was good.
The problem is the misguided players of today that think that everything today is just great and you need LFD/LFR tools in every game, and content that is /follow easy, and players who think everything should be soloed. These players keep thinking that EVERYTHING is better since old MMORPGs required time and social skills.
OH YEAH, social skills were needed for older MMO's . 'AYUP, I am a TANK, LFG. IAM A HEAL, LFG. I am a pew pew, LFG.' OH yeah, that is really social. *sarcasm off*
Sounds like you never played any other game than WOW. Did you ever have to take on a player run base that wound only go vulnerable on a random day and time and need to organize 18 guilds to help take out the Imp Base? What about making sure the players going have the best weapons (rocket launchers for my Commando Team) and Armor? O wait you wouldnt know that you just think in WOW terms of dungeons because thats all you know.
What about all of the people who did nothing but Join automated solo groups for grinding, used automated dancers/docs for buffs, shopped through the bazaar's item locater, spent most of their endgame at the Nightsister stronghold, Fort Tusken, or other POIs. Never pvp'd, never did a vette, warren or deathwatch run, never used vent or ts, joined guilds only for the purpose of selling their loot and joining a city? I could go on here.
Solo players have always been in the genre, especially in games like SWG, we had plenty of them in our Guild/city and we were a hardcore PVP guild for the most part. They were an excellent source for loot like mind fire pikes, gaderffii batons etc... Your way isn't the only way...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Not every game should make everyone happy and it is impossible to do so. Add to that Yes MMORPGs are broken, if you dont like grouping with people you dont belong playing them. I dont care if that pisses you off or not, the social aspect of MMORPGs is WHAT built the entire genera. Not WOW with LFD/LFR and easy feed content. During Vanilla WOW they didnt have to market the game because the game was so good, it required people to group to accomplish certain content and you didnt have automated grouping tools. It was people like myself that brought friends and new people to the game because the game was good.
The problem is the misguided players of today that think that everything today is just great and you need LFD/LFR tools in every game, and content that is /follow easy, and players who think everything should be soloed. These players keep thinking that EVERYTHING is better since old MMORPGs required time and social skills.
OH YEAH, social skills were needed for older MMO's . 'AYUP, I am a TANK, LFG. IAM A HEAL, LFG. I am a pew pew, LFG.' OH yeah, that is really social. *sarcasm off*
Sounds like you never played any other game than WOW. Did you ever have to take on a player run base that wound only go vulnerable on a random day and time and need to organize 18 guilds to help take out the Imp Base? What about making sure the players going have the best weapons (rocket launchers for my Commando Team) and Armor? O wait you wouldnt know that you just think in WOW terms of dungeons because thats all you know.
I never played WoW - so I guess that blows your opinion of me and what you REALLY KNOW. Rift was like that, Allods Online, I could go on.
People always say, "The good ol' days of MMO's were much better!' but people really it is the same ol' same ol'.
People on this board, sound like my parents, ' Oh this new music is so noisy and makes no sense! Bring back the good ol' songs'. RIGHT - like....
Sorry but the truth is you really dont know you can play it off as you know, but you dont know. Rift and Allods both were release 5+ years AFTER WOW was released so yes they wouldnt have the REAL feel of old school. So you are not comparing TRUE Pre-2005 community so yea your are wrong because you dont know because you were not there. And YES your parents are right. You know how I know? At 18 I thought I knew everything and was piss n vinegar I am twice that age now and I hate to say it, but yes my parents were right even though I thought them wrong on many of things. I am just glad I didnt suffer for my lack of experience and my stupid decisions.
O and BTW, I can tell you how much better it was growing up in a time before cell phones where you had to go to each of your friends downs to get a hockey game or a football game going. It took time, you would find out what your friends were up to and go out and play at the park or behind a firehouse. To break someones car window accidentally and then have to pony up the money to fix it. You kids today didnt experience that I see it in my step daughter, if her friends dont text her back when she wants to do something she does not go over their house and find out. She relies on a tool to figure out what she is going to do instead of going and socializing and learning how the world works.
So yes I know how this shit works and you dont. You can have an opinion BUT because you truly dont know and have not experienced something does not give you the proper understanding therefor your opinion is only valid when you take that into account and attempt to put yourself in that time. Otherwises you are just flapping your gums because you think you know, problem is you dont because you never truly experienced it.
And their parents said the same thing. And their parents said the same thing.
So either the world has been getting worse since the very first children or you are wrong and it is just your perception.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Not every game should make everyone happy and it is impossible to do so. Add to that Yes MMORPGs are broken, if you dont like grouping with people you dont belong playing them. I dont care if that pisses you off or not, the social aspect of MMORPGs is WHAT built the entire genera. Not WOW with LFD/LFR and easy feed content. During Vanilla WOW they didnt have to market the game because the game was so good, it required people to group to accomplish certain content and you didnt have automated grouping tools. It was people like myself that brought friends and new people to the game because the game was good.
The problem is the misguided players of today that think that everything today is just great and you need LFD/LFR tools in every game, and content that is /follow easy, and players who think everything should be soloed. These players keep thinking that EVERYTHING is better since old MMORPGs required time and social skills.
OH YEAH, social skills were needed for older MMO's . 'AYUP, I am a TANK, LFG. IAM A HEAL, LFG. I am a pew pew, LFG.' OH yeah, that is really social. *sarcasm off*
Sounds like you never played any other game than WOW. Did you ever have to take on a player run base that wound only go vulnerable on a random day and time and need to organize 18 guilds to help take out the Imp Base? What about making sure the players going have the best weapons (rocket launchers for my Commando Team) and Armor? O wait you wouldnt know that you just think in WOW terms of dungeons because thats all you know.
I never played WoW - so I guess that blows your opinion of me and what you REALLY KNOW. Rift was like that, Allods Online, I could go on.
People always say, "The good ol' days of MMO's were much better!' but people really it is the same ol' same ol'.
People on this board, sound like my parents, ' Oh this new music is so noisy and makes no sense! Bring back the good ol' songs'. RIGHT - like....
Sorry but the truth is you really dont know you can play it off as you know, but you dont know. Rift and Allods both were release 5+ years AFTER WOW was released so yes they wouldnt have the REAL feel of old school. So you are not comparing TRUE Pre-2005 community so yea your are wrong because you dont know because you were not there. And YES your parents are right. You know how I know? At 18 I thought I knew everything and was piss n vinegar I am twice that age now and I hate to say it, but yes my parents were right even though I thought them wrong on many of things. I am just glad I didnt suffer for my lack of experience and my stupid decisions.
O and BTW, I can tell you how much better it was growing up in a time before cell phones where you had to go to each of your friends downs to get a hockey game or a football game going. It took time, you would find out what your friends were up to and go out and play at the park or behind a firehouse. To break someones car window accidentally and then have to pony up the money to fix it. You kids today didnt experience that I see it in my step daughter, if her friends dont text her back when she wants to do something she does not go over their house and find out. She relies on a tool to figure out what she is going to do instead of going and socializing and learning how the world works.
So yes I know how this shit works and you dont. You can have an opinion BUT because you truly dont know and have not experienced something does not give you the proper understanding therefor your opinion is only valid when you take that into account and attempt to put yourself in that time. Otherwises you are just flapping your gums because you think you know, problem is you dont because you never truly experienced it.
And their parents said the same thing. And their parents said the same thing.
So either the world has been getting worse since the very first children or you are wrong and it is just your perception.
I am not going to judge the argument between the two of you. So that I leave to you guys.
However you comment that almost implies that you disbelief that humans evolve for each generation, leaves a strange perception of how you might disbelief, that the world has actually changed over time.
Yes each parent generation will notice the differences and similarities between their own and new generations, but in that process there is an actual change in a great many things happening.
The only constant in life is that everything changes over time, its unavoidable. But just because its tiresome to listen to the same phrase from each new parent generation, does not exclude the very progress and changes that inevitably does happen.
When the new generation becomes parents, if they will actually bother to become parents, cause a lot no longer feel its relevant or interesting or they have seen so much discovery TV telling them that the world is overpopulated, so they decide that its probably best not to get children, which makes sense, cause letting TV decide your lifechoices is always a great idea. But! if the new generations decides to become parents, they too will notice the differences once their kids grow up.
The action of evaluating the differences will be the repeated action, yet the progress of the human evolution will still be present.
Whether the evolution is then determined to be a positive one is up to each individual to decide for themselves.
Yes each parent generation will notice the differences and similarities between their own and new generations, but in that process there is an actual change in a great many things happening.
When I see the current generation of kids/teens, walking in the street their eyes stuck on their smartphones, I have some doubts about human evolution... looks more like devolution to me.
Yeah, I quite happy to be of the generation which has been teenager during the 80s. I definitely wouldn't like to be one nowadays.
So true they have their heads and ears stuck in smart phones or tablets all day. So most don't really develop those social skills that people in the 80's and before had too. You can see this in the players in mmo's today.
Wow i go back to the first days of Everquest. Where you ran every where and if you died had to run back to your corps to get your stuff back. Or how much fun...Not camping for hours or days for on boss or one mob. Only to have someone run in last minute and steal it. Or killing stuff in a dungeon and hear someone scream train to exit get out of the way or get ran over. LoL or begging folks for SoW=Speed of Wolf because you had to run every where. Ah the good old days of Evercamp brings back fond memories.
Wow i go back to the first days of Everquest. Where you ran every where and if you died had to run back to your corps to get your stuff back. Or how much fun...Not camping for hours or days for on boss or one mob. Only to have someone run in last minute and steal it. Or killing stuff in a dungeon and hear someone scream train to exit get out of the way or get ran over. LoL or begging folks for SoW=Speed of Wolf because you had to run every where. Ah the good old days of Evercamp brings back fond memories.
Yes, games like that were frustrating. When I was playing old Anarchy Online there were times I wanted to throw my keyboard due to things like that. As a doctor I remember everyone begging me for IC (Iron Circle str/stam buff) so they could boost their stats to twink on new gear.
However, when you finally did accomplish something after much frustration and difficulty it felt really good :awesome:
Making things easier is a double edged sword. Sure, it does eliminate much of the frustration but accomplishments feel empty and unearned.
For example, here are two scenarios. Which are you more likely to remember? Which would make you feel like you really accomplished something??: A.) Autopathing to a really easy dungeon to effortlessly solo super easy mobs and get a guaranteed 'rare' item drop (which everyone else has) -or- B.) Waiting hours or even days to have a fully prepared party to find your own way to a really hard dungeon where you have to kill the trains of mobs brought to you by people running to the exit so you and your party can continue fighting difficult mobs up to the boss room where you have to spawn camp it and occasionally outdamage the random kill stealing parties to finally win a roll on that truly rare drop you've been after for months (one hardly anyone has because of how hard it is to get)
Hardship makes rewards more rewarding and memories more memorable. Easy games are less frustrating but boring.
I am going to pick on the people who say they dont have the same time as they use to 10 years ago crowd, and maybe the crowd that feels that they deserve to have something to do whenever they hell they want. I am going to be tough however I will not be disrespectful.
The Truth of the matter is people who say they don't have time because of real life, and people that feel they need something everytime that want it are honestly the problem in MMORPGs. The reason why is obvious and they do have valid points however they are too self centered. [...]
Hmmm… as a person who clearly doesn’t have the same
priorities I did 10 years ago, I don’t see how I am being self-centered. I am
not twisting the developers’ arms or making demands, and even if I were to
write a post here or on another forum, it would be no more influential than you
making your own posts. I think, respectfully, that you misunderstand the role we play here. There is
nothing self-centered about me choosing to play how I want to play. Why should
I waste my precious time on something I find boring? I am simply choosing to
play what works for me. If all MMOs available don’t work for me, then I will
simply play something else. I have no complaints. But the truth is that some
available games fit my play style right now so I choose to log in to those. On
the flip side, I don’t bother with games that don’t fit my play style. What’s
wrong with that? Here, let me give you two examples from my personal MMO
history.
I used to play EVE a while back. Made some friends and got
some family to join. Sometimes we would go on roams, looking for a good fight,
and it could take forever before we got one. It took some networking (finding
the right corp for me) and skill training to make progress and feel as though I
was a part of something, but it was worth it. I enjoyed the experience overall,
and have some very fond memories. I don’t play EVE anymore, though, because my time is more limited and I don’t want to spend as much of it on downtime in hopes of
some action. I also can’t jump online the moment someone in corp messages about
an impending battle. I wish everyone who plays EVE well, but it’s not for me at
the moment.
Conversely, I still log into GW2. I don’t think GW2 is
perfect at all, and it definitely lacks that player-driven depth of EVE, for
example, but it suits me right now. One big reason why I game online is to stay
in touch with friends and family who live far away. When I have an hour or two
to kill, I like that I’m able to text my younger brother who’s off in another state
and meet up in Tyria for some fun. The fact that his characters can play
alongside mine, despite their different levels, is very convenient. Being able
to fast travel to each other despite where either of us logged off last also
ensures we spend more of our time playing together. If this game didn’t exist,
we would find something else that worked for us. It still wouldn’t be EVE,
though, despite how much fun I once had with it. The point is there’s nothing
self-centered in me choosing a game that fits my wants at the time. If there’s
a game that I can enjoy, I’ll play it. If it’s not there, I’ll find something I
like and play that.
Developers can choose to cater to whatever crowd they want.
They may be passionate about games, or about providing novel experiences, but
they are also interested in turning a profit. They will therefore cater their
games to whatever audience suits them. If I happen to be that audience and enjoy
what they make, then yay!
If not, then best of luck to them and whoever enjoys their game. Developers can
make whatever they want. They don’t owe me or you squat. And you and I can play
whatever we like. We also don’t owe others squat. Just have fun and enjoy your
game, and hope you see more of what you like in the future. But don’t chastise
me for not sharing your interests, or for choosing to play differently.
Finally, I’d like to point out that I play games, not
genres. Sure, some genres have features I am looking for, but ultimately if I
play a game it’s because of the merits of the game itself. What should MMOs be?
Is GW2 all that is right or wrong with MMOs? I don’t know. Should I play MMOs
if I don’t have the time? I don’t know that either. It's fun to discuss, theorize, and read about these things. But when it comes to what I play, it's really all about the
game itself. At the moment, there are MMOs I enjoy playing that keep me in touch with friends and family, so I play those games. There are also MMOs that require a
regular time commitment to really shine, and since I don’t have that kind of
time these days, I pass on those.
Comments
A bad game is playable with good people. A good game is borderline unplayable with bad people. Soloing and taking 10x as long to level is no big deal when you have nice, mature people to chat with (or duo/trio with, even if the XP is horrible). This is why people could deal with EQ back in the day. Yes, the forced groupie was in optimal to some. Yes, the solo leveling progression (for most classes) was terrible... However, a large part of the entertainment in those older MMORPGs wasn't the game itself, but the social interaction within the game.
Even when you weren't online to XP, it was still worth it to log in just for the social interaction (when you didn't have real-life commitments). The games these days are task-driven. The emphasis is on multi-player only in terms of getting the item, flag, key, whatever that you need. Then, you either log off or you go solo more "World Quests" or whatever.
The big issue many have with MMORPGs is not that they are bad, per se. It's that they are horrible from a social standpoint. They are like animated Twitter, these days. ESO is such a bad "MMORPG" that they are now trying to act like it was never meant to be a "true MMORPG."
Some people boggle at why players are clinging onto old games like EQ, and "failures" like EQ2. It's the people. That's why. If they cannot find mature, pleasant communities in other games, then the games are a lot less playable to them - regardless of technical merit. All games end up being ugly after some time. It's an MMORPG. These aren't "get it, beat it in a week, and resale" titles...
The obsession with "solo feats" in current games is nothing more than the reflection of the change that has happened in this genre's demographics. Frankly, most people want it that way, so why shouldn't they be that way? The people who want it otherwise are a distant minority.
This is why I don't think games like Pantheon are going to be nearly as "groundbreaking" (not that it's possible, it's basically an EQ clone) as many are hoping. Unless all of those people who liked EQ either move directly to Pantheon or come out of "retirement," it's doomed to be quite niche. The market for PvE MMORPGs that require job-like dedication to progression... just for character levels... and ties your progression to other people's willingness to group without is extremely small.
People put up with this because there was not much choice back in the day and it seemed like a decent value proposition to them at that time. I'm not even sure I could justify this, these days. I quit Lineage II, for example, because the dependence on groups for decent XP and the hard leveling curve made the game feel like a job - and that's ignoring PvP (which I largely gave up on after deciding not to grind XP for 6-8 hours a day).
I do think that "levels" is an outdated concept. I think leveling should be easy, but I think a deep talent tree/AA System devoid of obsessive power creep and deep content with good progression schemes are better. A good crafting system helps, as well. What I mean to say, is that the focus should be off of leveling and onto post-leveling advancement. That way the community can largely play together, but there is still a sense of progression.
It seems like a lot of people revolt at WoW's fast cosmopolitan leveling, when the leveling itself isn't the issue. It's the fact that there isn't much after leveling that matters. They have sort of attacked this with the artifact weapons, but I think that's a fairly obviously flawed system (and may agree). Something similar to EQ's AA system is more akin to what I'm speaking about, but this will require the developers to keep ample tab on the balance of AAs to avoid excessive power creep.
I think that any problem we experience with MMOs, or games in general, are a result of a combination of the things already mentioned in this thread. When I play a game, many things affect my experience:
- The game's design (mechanics, visuals, story, etc.),
- My particular interests at the time,
- The amount (and quality) of time I can and choose to put into the experience,
- Other forms of entertainment competing for my attention (other MMOs, games in general, other hobbies, etc.),
- The game's community (developer's target audience, friends, etc.)
I feel that this is true of a lot of things, not just MMOs. Game design philosophy can shift over time, as old limits are tested, ideas grow stagnant, the market gets crowded, and people's demands change.Our interests can and often do change, and that affects the community. I used to play RTS religiously, but rarely do anymore. It just doesn't draw me in like it used to. Some of my friends still play, but my changing interests affects them as well. This is even more obvious in MMOs. Guild members moving on to other things changes the experience you have when you log on. Sure, new blood can sometimes replace those who leave, but new blood also brings in new ideas and interests that can change the experience entirely.
I no longer have the time I used to have to devote to gaming. Between work and family, my personal time must get divided between things I enjoy doing (reading, gaming, sailing, etc). I try to include my family in my gaming, as it can be a shared experience, but that also means adjusting my expectations (it also means waiting for the little one to grow). Then there are times I am playing but my mind is preoccupied with the happenings of the day. I really didn't have the same responsibilities when I was 16, and I could simply let loose and game for hours. Now, I may have an hour to kill, but I also have the baby monitor on, next to me. It kills immersion, but it is sooooo worth it!
Don't get me wrong, I have opinions about the way MMOs are designed, the issue of group vs solo content, instancing and phasing, fast travel, leveling and end game, character/gear progression, tab-targeted vs action or twitch combat, you name it. But in all honesty, I wouldn't be able to devote the time I did ten years ago to any game today, whether I liked it or not. So I find what works for me now, which means I am suddenly in a different demographic than I used to be. Certain forms of in-game conveniences become acceptable, because it means I can bash a few monsters or other players over the head in the little time I have to play. Are these games less immersive? Have I made less friends in them than before? Sure, but as I mentioned earlier, the only thing I am truly immersed in at the moment is being a father. Everything else, including my musings on here, is just for fun.
With modern MMOs they are not designed with any thought being actually given to these areas. Auction house, check. Group dungeon, check. Trade with players, check. There you go m8 MMO. You can develop actual social features in your game that are not intrusive if you want to. The problem is that takes focus, and there's only so much development time that can go into a game, and developers feel their time would be better served by making new prefabricated content rather than enhance the ability for players to be the content. Because without all that initial content that can be actively played and digested the game will not end up attracting the transient audience that the developer is going for. So by marketing to that transient target audience, the opportunity is missed to develop and encourage an actual community.
Developer : MMO ? let make a single player game with multiplayer option and call it MMO .
You know what ? game like conterstrike or lol and DOTA are better multiplayer game than any new MMORPG make after WOTLK .
In modern MMORPG , they design things with mind to put half of it in cash shop .
What's wrong with modern MMO ? the player , because we accept what ever those greedy throw at us .
Talk about yourself.
I want the exact same thing 2017 as I wanted 2000. Challenge and complexity.
I want MMOs I can play longtime. I want maxlevel to be basically unreachable, I want complex challenging classes that are hard to master, I want dynamic combat that keeps you thinking what ability to use next.
When I first got into MMOs I played NexusTK {I mention this often I am aware} Mages were wanted for their crowd control. Priests were wanted for healing. Warriors for tanking and Rogues for DPS. That is what it is. If you wanted a specific trait you were only one of those things. Now each class can often do two things or even more in WoW. When you spread these abilities you water down the mechanics in some ways. Its not a problem per say but it does break it down some and can contribute to the tearing of that vale.
Another issue is that games tend to follow the same routes. level via dungeons & quests and that's it. After years of this style of play the younger crowd tends to get hungry for change. Why not level by crafting? Why not pvp? These aspects are in some games to a degree but the MMO companies could really take advantage of this concept and bring in a new way to play that would increase the population of the MMOs by making trader classes. Imagine quests were you could get xp by earning receipts from selling items and turning in the receipts. What about Jousting tourneys? it would fit in with many games. There needs to be more flexibility in these games.
I once considered making an MMO but Im more of an idea guy and not a programmer by any means. Not to mention I am terrible at business. I have ideas that could {in my deluded mind of course} change the very nature of whats wrong with MMOs.
They started with dice and paper by "nerds" that seek adventure in the unknown. if you think of it this way its easy to see that the unknown is gone. The worlds are easily known and thus looses the excitement of discovery. Of course I have long winded ideas on how to change that but... bla bla bla..
Another aspect is inns. Why is there nothing to do at the tables in the inns? Games are to limited..
I never played WoW - so I guess that blows your opinion of me and what you REALLY KNOW. Rift was like that, Allods Online, I could go on.
People always say, "The good ol' days of MMO's were much better!' but people really it is the same ol' same ol'.
People on this board, sound like my parents, ' Oh this new music is so noisy and makes no sense! Bring back the good ol' songs'. RIGHT - like....
http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/c/cementmixerputtyputty.shtml
The above is a good example.....
I remember and still do , although not needed as much now, but old DAOC days where you actually had to co ordinate or you l wipe. 8 group members, which usually consisted of a tank an off tank a healer a buffer/de buffer/ back up heals, a CC or 2, a puller, and 2-3 dps. If you didn t do your job , you failed. Now it s just mash buttons as quickly as possible, and generally it doesn t matter what ones you even hit.
I like some newer MMOs, and don t have the time to play them I once did, but as far as a social experience because you actually had to talk/communicate, and taking a lot more co ordination or any at all, yes they were better in those aspects back in the day.
Most of the time, it was just learning the boss 'tells' etc. and then just following a pattern. It wasn't hard and they were boring as all the other RAIDS. No communication was really needed. People who say that was communication well, it wasn't.
Don t agree at all. If you ever ran Darkness Falls , you would know how wrong you are.
Been playing it recently (in the old school fashion) and if you listen to the cadence of the team as it works through a camp there is definitely communication. (voice chat being very helpful vs back in 2002)
It starts with the puller stating the targets and how many are incoming. The tanks chime in identifying what they are picking up, and the crowd controllers keep everything else in place, reporting which targets are on 1st, 2nd, 3rd mezz, which resisted (which the off tanks peel from the CC3er's) and when all else fails, is rooted) while the rest of the group burns down the primary targets.
The healers report on when insta's are burned, timers till they return, power consumption, use of mana recovery abilities etc. My character plays a hybrid role, so during it all I monitor health of mezzers/healers, HOT heal them as needed (no aggro), Stun in a panic situation and do damage either solo or AOE as the situation requires, and I keep the group informed on what my focus currently is)
Of course, when it all looks like it's going into the pot, (usually happens when the puller says, "someone hold my beer, and watch this" ) the group coordinates who will run, disband and log off, and who stays and fights to the end so at least one rezzer can get away to prevent a full wipe.
I haven't had to coordinate like this since my raiding days with WOW which I'm sure is still done, but all of the above is just part of our day to day game play for most every pull.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The Truth of the matter is people who say they don't have time because of real life, and people that feel they need something everytime that want it are honestly the problem in MMORPGs. The reason why is obvious and they do have valid points however they are too self centered. MMORPGs take a massive budget for the most part and take very long development cycles, they are not games like Dragon Age or neverwinter nights which can be developed in a year or 2 on cheap budgets. MMORPGs take 5+ years to design and develop and constantly need bug fixes, and work to keep customers playing. They cannot cater to the players who want fast convenient content, it just cannot be done because the amount of development work that goes into MMORPGs. The reason why back before easy fast paced MMORPGs were so successful AND very profitable (Before WOW and WOW) was because you were expected to spend a lot of time to achieve something. You were not on a Treadmill like you are today.
In Today's MMORPGs you spend several days a week just to log on and cap points so you can buy gear so you can move onto the next tier of gear. This is dont expressly to satisfy the I dont have time group or the group that always wants exactly what they want. Yet you end up finishing the last tier of content within a month maybe two and having nothing else in the game to complete, you get bored and move onto the next game to do the same thing. These games yes are making money but the margin of profit is much much lower than it was before the Treadmill started. Over time you became bored but stick to the fact that well you MUST have these convenience tools because the old way well you couldnt keep up with it because the old way was more demanding and required months before you could get what you wanted.
Yet you might or might not have achieved what you wanted before easy and fast content was given to you. The problem is you FEEL that since you paid your $15 for the month it should be EASY for you. Why? Because you are self centered and think the game should revolve around you and your lack of time or willingness to spend time achieving something. Part of the problem is MMORPGs fault because WOW it took you 6 months or more to complete MC and most raiders never got all their MC gear or seen BWL. That is because WOW came out with the expansions way to fast. Vanilla could have easily lasted 12 to 18 months more with very little boredom. Why do I say that? Because you still could have been working on more and better gear with new content, you wouldnt have felt rushed so if you took 3 months off you could have found a group to join that was slower than others. But you ended up feeling rushed because Blizzard rushed to put TBC to market to make more money.
While you are right that easier faster content NEEDS to be implemented if expansions are done at a 2 year or shorter pace. That is not what MMORPGs of the future need to be like and no they should not cater to people with the lack of time. They should have mechanics to help out new and returning players, BUT they should not cater to the people unwilling to make friends in game that are willing to help out and that also respect you as a person. Also if new expansions are done at a fast rate they should not completely replace your hard earned gear that took you 6 months to get in days or weeks. It should also also not make you feel that rushing to end game is the ONLY content to be concerned about because when a game is nearly all end game focused and focused on only 2 aspects players will expect to always have a group for these 2 aspects. No you should be expected to make friends and group up with people to do many different things in an MMORPG and help one another achieve together the many things an MMORPG can give you as content. Not just Raids and Arenas.
For example if you look at Ashes of Creation, they have a system where players can work together to build a castle and not every person will have a castle. It will also take teamwork to do and you will need to befriends and respect each other because the amount of time it will take to build a castle. If you end up not working together as a team you will lose all the work you put into the castle. It's up to you and that castle will not become obsolete the very next expansion. Also your gear will not be come obsolete as fast the very next expansion. Everything will take time and even if you do not have the same amount of time as you had 10 years ago, that does not mean you cannot achieve what you want in the game. It means 2 things, One you need to not be self centered on its all about you; you need to make friends and yes find like minded people. And two understand it will not be done in a few weeks or a month. It should take you more time BUT that does not mean you will replace what you want fast when you achieve your goal, it just means you need to set a new goal and achieve the next. The game should not be about you and how fast you achieve something its about how you interact with other people and pace yourself on achieving that goal.
This is why new MMORPGs are focusing on OLD school design. It's because MMORPGs are expensive and take a lot of time to develop. You cannot just throw some crap together and make it work. You should be expected to be a part of the work and take time to achieve your goals. This Genera does not work otherwise and you can see that in today's MMOs. They are all just rides for you to spend a lot of money on for a fast few week ride until the next new ride comes out, then move to the next. This formula is not working, many see this AND many are tired of this. Only the people who like this formula defend it. But ask yourself why no new AAA MMORPGs are coming out? Because it is no longer profitable in a large margin anymore if any profit is to be made.
The next generation will have old school ways and expect you to be a part of the world. Yes it will have some mechanics for casual scheduled players. It will also have catch up mechanics. BUT they will not focus on fast easy content like we have today. These games will expect you to either do or do not, there will be no try.
.. is story, simply that it has story. Aka narrative, story driven, on-rails, directed experience.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
O and BTW, I can tell you how much better it was growing up in a time before cell phones where you had to go to each of your friends downs to get a hockey game or a football game going. It took time, you would find out what your friends were up to and go out and play at the park or behind a firehouse. To break someones car window accidentally and then have to pony up the money to fix it. You kids today didnt experience that I see it in my step daughter, if her friends dont text her back when she wants to do something she does not go over their house and find out. She relies on a tool to figure out what she is going to do instead of going and socializing and learning how the world works.
So yes I know how this shit works and you dont. You can have an opinion BUT because you truly dont know and have not experienced something does not give you the proper understanding therefor your opinion is only valid when you take that into account and attempt to put yourself in that time. Otherwises you are just flapping your gums because you think you know, problem is you dont because you never truly experienced it.
In UO when they brought in Champion spawns I would know about it because I was at Brit bank and seen someone running through and saying "Champion Spawn Delucia Phase 1". Then I would recall to my house get my 2 friends that were online, send a message over ICQ to my friends group then gate to Delucia to do the champion spawn. 10 to 50 people would end up coming to the Champion spawn at any giving time, my friend I and would be killing shit with all these people. Sometimes Reds would come in and see my friend who was a well known PKer on the server and the reds would run because they wouldn't want to take him on again and get their asses handed to them. More people would show and some more friends. We would be chatting on TS2 while having a good time. The Champion would come out and we would kill it and take all the gold that dropped.
There were times where my friends would help me mine around Minco which was dangerous because of Water Elementals. I would talk to them to see when they would be able to help me. For their services I would give them sets of gear when ever they needed it or I would repair their gear.
This is just a fraction of what happened in PRE-2005 MMORPGS. You do not get this in today's MMORPGs because they are so focused on the self centered player.
Solo players have always been in the genre, especially in games like SWG, we had plenty of them in our Guild/city and we were a hardcore PVP guild for the most part. They were an excellent source for loot like mind fire pikes, gaderffii batons etc... Your way isn't the only way...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So either the world has been getting worse since the very first children or you are wrong and it is just your perception.
I am not going to judge the argument between the two of you. So that I leave to you guys.
However you comment that almost implies that you disbelief that humans evolve for each generation, leaves a strange perception of how you might disbelief, that the world has actually changed over time.
Yes each parent generation will notice the differences and similarities between their own and new generations, but in that process there is an actual change in a great many things happening.
The only constant in life is that everything changes over time, its unavoidable. But just because its tiresome to listen to the same phrase from each new parent generation, does not exclude the very progress and changes that inevitably does happen.
When the new generation becomes parents, if they will actually bother to become parents, cause a lot no longer feel its relevant or interesting or they have seen so much discovery TV telling them that the world is overpopulated, so they decide that its probably best not to get children, which makes sense, cause letting TV decide your lifechoices is always a great idea. But! if the new generations decides to become parents, they too will notice the differences once their kids grow up.
The action of evaluating the differences will be the repeated action, yet the progress of the human evolution will still be present.
Whether the evolution is then determined to be a positive one is up to each individual to decide for themselves.
they have their heads and ears stuck in smart phones or tablets all day. So most don't really develop those social skills that people in the 80's and before had too. You can see this in the players in mmo's today.
However, when you finally did accomplish something after much frustration and difficulty it felt really good :awesome:
Making things easier is a double edged sword. Sure, it does eliminate much of the frustration but accomplishments feel empty and unearned.
For example, here are two scenarios. Which are you more likely to remember? Which would make you feel like you really accomplished something??:
A.) Autopathing to a really easy dungeon to effortlessly solo super easy mobs and get a guaranteed 'rare' item drop (which everyone else has)
-or-
B.) Waiting hours or even days to have a fully prepared party to find your own way to a really hard dungeon where you have to kill the trains of mobs brought to you by people running to the exit so you and your party can continue fighting difficult mobs up to the boss room where you have to spawn camp it and occasionally outdamage the random kill stealing parties to finally win a roll on that truly rare drop you've been after for months (one hardly anyone has because of how hard it is to get)
Hardship makes rewards more rewarding and memories more memorable. Easy games are less frustrating but boring.
Hmmm… as a person who clearly doesn’t have the same priorities I did 10 years ago, I don’t see how I am being self-centered. I am not twisting the developers’ arms or making demands, and even if I were to write a post here or on another forum, it would be no more influential than you making your own posts. I think, respectfully, that you misunderstand the role we play here. There is nothing self-centered about me choosing to play how I want to play. Why should I waste my precious time on something I find boring? I am simply choosing to play what works for me. If all MMOs available don’t work for me, then I will simply play something else. I have no complaints. But the truth is that some available games fit my play style right now so I choose to log in to those. On the flip side, I don’t bother with games that don’t fit my play style. What’s wrong with that? Here, let me give you two examples from my personal MMO history.
I used to play EVE a while back. Made some friends and got some family to join. Sometimes we would go on roams, looking for a good fight, and it could take forever before we got one. It took some networking (finding the right corp for me) and skill training to make progress and feel as though I was a part of something, but it was worth it. I enjoyed the experience overall, and have some very fond memories. I don’t play EVE anymore, though, because my time is more limited and I don’t want to spend as much of it on downtime in hopes of some action. I also can’t jump online the moment someone in corp messages about an impending battle. I wish everyone who plays EVE well, but it’s not for me at the moment.
Conversely, I still log into GW2. I don’t think GW2 is perfect at all, and it definitely lacks that player-driven depth of EVE, for example, but it suits me right now. One big reason why I game online is to stay in touch with friends and family who live far away. When I have an hour or two to kill, I like that I’m able to text my younger brother who’s off in another state and meet up in Tyria for some fun. The fact that his characters can play alongside mine, despite their different levels, is very convenient. Being able to fast travel to each other despite where either of us logged off last also ensures we spend more of our time playing together. If this game didn’t exist, we would find something else that worked for us. It still wouldn’t be EVE, though, despite how much fun I once had with it. The point is there’s nothing self-centered in me choosing a game that fits my wants at the time. If there’s a game that I can enjoy, I’ll play it. If it’s not there, I’ll find something I like and play that.
Developers can choose to cater to whatever crowd they want. They may be passionate about games, or about providing novel experiences, but they are also interested in turning a profit. They will therefore cater their games to whatever audience suits them. If I happen to be that audience and enjoy what they make, then yay!
If not, then best of luck to them and whoever enjoys their game. Developers can
make whatever they want. They don’t owe me or you squat. And you and I can play
whatever we like. We also don’t owe others squat. Just have fun and enjoy your
game, and hope you see more of what you like in the future. But don’t chastise
me for not sharing your interests, or for choosing to play differently.
Finally, I’d like to point out that I play games, not genres. Sure, some genres have features I am looking for, but ultimately if I play a game it’s because of the merits of the game itself. What should MMOs be? Is GW2 all that is right or wrong with MMOs? I don’t know. Should I play MMOs if I don’t have the time? I don’t know that either. It's fun to discuss, theorize, and read about these things. But when it comes to what I play, it's really all about the game itself. At the moment, there are MMOs I enjoy playing that keep me in touch with friends and family, so I play those games. There are also MMOs that require a regular time commitment to really shine, and since I don’t have that kind of time these days, I pass on those.