What happened ?... What's the problem ?

delete5230 · March 2017

I think it was before 2004, a game company got together and thought, there must be something with this multi player stuff. They looked at what was available, UO, EQ1, DAOC, great games by the way, but they also realized they could have been expanded upon. Something much more charming, a little less serious at times, with much more to do other than fighting all the time......You know something for everyone.

In an effort to make a world and a true life outside reality they created two sides that would go face to face with each other. They weren't able to communicate, so both sides didn't know what's going on with the other, this was to be hidden. With two sides and with very little in common they need their own personality. So this company decided to make four races for each, eight total and six massive cities where there the players can gather and chat and plan strategies.

This company did so much more, they could read into players minds and personalities. They knew some are shy and like to play alone, yet others like to talk, chat and group. Some like to set off in the world and find that opposing force called the Horde and fight them, but some liked to simply join a pre arranged battle without any major time restraint. Hell, not long after the well built Auction House was made where players can really gamble with their gatherings and truly see if they can make some gold, this was a pure mini game in it self. Sure in modern games much of this is their.... But the speed of how the games are made, this all turned frivolous and not worth the effort. Why sell that blue sword when everyone knows they'll out level it in 15 minuets.

Developers were intelligent back then. Well, they are now too but more corrupt. The focus is not trying to make a HUGE WORLD. They don't bother to make it seamless at all. They don't have 30+ themed zones each with their own story and open world to do what ever you like within them. No, their more carrot on a stick where you have to follow a path......Now their short money makers !

What happened ?... What's the problem ?.......It's now 2017 !

delete5230 · March 2017

DMKano said:

Reading this is like listening to Alex Jones.

Hay, I like him

botrytis · March 2017

I think you have some rose colored glasses on. IT still takes tons of HP to deal with open worlds and many players.

There is not difference, in developers, between then and now, except they have more of an understanding what can be done and what cannot be done.

It is just trying to capture as many players to make as much money as possible. Before only the geekiest where on and they liked certain things. Now everyone is on and these companies have to appeal to more than just the geeks. You want the geek style back, but then you would need to make the internet available only for them.

Azaron_Nightblade · March 2017

DMKano said:

Reading this is like listening to Alex Jones.

Preach the good word, @delete5230 !

Only you can bring wisdom to idiot devs who've lost their marbles!

Or more, likely amused them, and the rest of us who aren't stuck in 2004

delete5230 · March 2017

Azaron_Nightblade said:

DMKano said:

Reading this is like listening to Alex Jones.

Preach the good word, @delete5230 !

Only you can bring wisdom to idiot devs who've lost their marbles!

Or more, likely amused them, and the rest of us who aren't stuck in 2004

It's funny too, You could always find battle no matter what level you were, that was guaranteed.

That it self was amazing....... All this, way back in 2004.

Damon · March 2017

Game Developers these days, more often than not, are like Taco Bell.
That is, if elements of an MMORPG were like ingredients available at Taco Bell.
Mix and match a few in a different order, and call it a new menu item (ie game).
Most of these games are just the same things, repackaged with some different lore.

I lost my taste for this crap, and found thousands of hours of fun in a non-MMORPG (ARK:Survival Evolved), because I found myself loving the hell out of building in that game (and the mod community is amazing). I think too many MMORPGs add "player housing" to their game, where players can purchase a home/apartment that already exists, and where other players can be seen entering the same doorway. It's just one element of a game that could improve the genre, if done correctly.

Graphics are another story. Studios want to sell their game to as many people as possible, and this need outweighs any desire to push the boundaries (or simply meet the current bar) for what can be made for current, new hardware.

Any of us could go on and on about these things. The genre has been like this for years now. Like I said, I've found myself playing other genre of games, that still have the multiplayer aspect, but actually has impact between players, and is giving me something new/different to enjoy. Until some new MMORPG comes out (and it may not happen until VR gets amazing) that impresses and inspires me as a player, I'll be sorting through the tons of other games available, trying to find something fun.

Kyleran · March 2017

This same company has performed similar analysis and delivered successful online games in multiple genres including MOBAs, Shooters, and Card based games which appeal to the more casual gamer.

In every case they've leveraged their experience and vast financial resources to create games the masses really enjoy, and even had the courage to sack one game which appeared on the road to disaster and leverage the work into something that recently was called game of the year by some.

Few can compare with their prowess, and regardless whether you like any of these games, you have to respect their ability to read market trends and profit from them.

Expecting every game or Dev to be like them is unrealistic.

OP decrys the rest of the devs from not being like this one company. We had years of new MMORPGs coming out trying to be WOW +1 and it wasn't very successful.

But you have to also recognize there are some successful games out there including ESO, FFXIV, BDO, and a host of smaller titles.

Maybe when it comes to games with huge mass appeal there really isn't room at the top for too many players.

Flyte27 · March 2017

ikcin said:

The companies are never too smart You cannot beat iPhone with a copy of iPhone, or WoW with a copy of WoW, but many are still trying.

Android is doing fairly well. I use Android over Apple for the larger amount of freedom it offers. Windows PC is still my favorite as it allows even more, freedom.

WoW was popular because of its accessibility. The problem is that the model still makes the most money regardless of if it doesn't make as much as WoW. The market is a lot more saturated now than it was when WoW came out. There is little incentive to produce a niche product unless it's something that the developer actually want's to produce and believes is how an MMORPG should be. A good example is Pillars of Eternity or Pantheon Rise of the Fallen. The developer doesn't care that they aren't making the most money out of the product. They are making the games for a small fanbase that is funding them. Whether they can capture the same fun element as games they are trying to emulate is another matter.

tawess · March 2017

Things changed.. because the market changed...

It went from a small dedicated hobby to a global entertainment phenomena. That weighted the consumer numbers more towards the average entertainment consumer than the hard core hobbyist.

That and ofc.. well... life... But that is a entire chapter unto it self.

And... It... Is... Never... Going... Back.

Sure someone will come along and make a good nostalgia product... But who knows when those stars will align. My generation slowly moves from the starry eyed children we used to be to busy adults and soon we will start to move in to becoming the aged ones... Out of touch and left behind.

Time... what a total dick right.

Kyleran · March 2017

MisterZebub said:

delete5230 said:

I think it was before 2004, a game company got together and thought, there must be something with this multi player stuff. They looked at what was available, UO, EQ1, DAOC, great games by the way, but they also realized they could have been expanded upon. Something much more charming, a little less serious at times, with much more to do other than fighting all the time......You know something for everyone.

In an effort to make a world and a true life outside reality they created two sides that would go face to face with each other. They weren't able to communicate, so both sides didn't know what's going on with the other, this was to be hidden. With two sides and with very little in common they need their own personality. So this company decided to make four races for each, eight total and six massive cities where there the players can gather and chat and plan strategies.

This company did so much more, they could read into players minds and personalities. They knew some are shy and like to play alone, yet others like to talk, chat and group. Some like to set off in the world and find that opposing force called the Horde and fight them, but some liked to simply join a pre arranged battle without any major time restraint. Hell, not long after the well built Auction House was made where players can really gamble with their gatherings and truly see if they can make some gold, this was a pure mini game in it self. Sure in modern games much of this is their.... But the speed of how the games are made, this all turned frivolous and not worth the effort. Why sell that blue sword when everyone knows they'll out level it in 15 minuets.

Developers were intelligent back then. Well, they are now too but more corrupt. The focus is not trying to make a HUGE WORLD. They don't bother to make it seamless at all. They don't have 30+ themed zones each with their own story and open world to do what ever you like within them. No, their more carrot on a stick where you have to follow a path......Now their short money makers !

What happened ?... What's the problem ?.......It's now 2017 !

None of this happened in a vacuum. Game developers didn't suddenly wake up one day and decide to give each other lobotomies before designing new games. The biggest blame for the change actually lies at the feet of the game consumers, not the creators.

True, consumers have shown a willingness to pay vast sums of money at most anything, even games that dont exist.

Its not the Devs who are to blame here.

Sovrath · March 2017

MisterZebub said:

delete5230 said:

I think it was before 2004, a game company got together and thought, there must be something with this multi player stuff. They looked at what was available, UO, EQ1, DAOC, great games by the way, but they also realized they could have been expanded upon. Something much more charming, a little less serious at times, with much more to do other than fighting all the time......You know something for everyone.

In an effort to make a world and a true life outside reality they created two sides that would go face to face with each other. They weren't able to communicate, so both sides didn't know what's going on with the other, this was to be hidden. With two sides and with very little in common they need their own personality. So this company decided to make four races for each, eight total and six massive cities where there the players can gather and chat and plan strategies.

This company did so much more, they could read into players minds and personalities. They knew some are shy and like to play alone, yet others like to talk, chat and group. Some like to set off in the world and find that opposing force called the Horde and fight them, but some liked to simply join a pre arranged battle without any major time restraint. Hell, not long after the well built Auction House was made where players can really gamble with their gatherings and truly see if they can make some gold, this was a pure mini game in it self. Sure in modern games much of this is their.... But the speed of how the games are made, this all turned frivolous and not worth the effort. Why sell that blue sword when everyone knows they'll out level it in 15 minuets.

Developers were intelligent back then. Well, they are now too but more corrupt. The focus is not trying to make a HUGE WORLD. They don't bother to make it seamless at all. They don't have 30+ themed zones each with their own story and open world to do what ever you like within them. No, their more carrot on a stick where you have to follow a path......Now their short money makers !

What happened ?... What's the problem ?.......It's now 2017 !

None of this happened in a vacuum. Game developers didn't suddenly wake up one day and decide to give each other lobotomies before designing new games. The biggest blame for the change actually lies at the feet of the game consumers, not the creators.

There's truth to this.

I've told this story before but will do so again.

I was at a PAX Boston event and was speaking with Jeffrey Steefel of Turbine. I had told him that I was not playing the game, didn't like the direction it was going and hated what they did to the Old Forest (which is now even worse).

He told me that the guy who worked on the Old Forest was a young guy but a fan of the older games, such as UO (if memory serves). People were complaining about the old forest, it was too hard, too easy to get lost, etc.

So he asked the Developer to change it. The Developer didn't want to but he did and it seemed that, though there were people unhappy with the change, their feedback was better.

Players want to blame developers but they are most likely just doing their job, they have to deal with other concerns and if they had their druthers, they probably would make a game very different than what we have a lot of today.

And they may or may not be successful.

timtrack · March 2017

Sovrath said:

MisterZebub said:

delete5230 said:

I think it was before 2004, a game company got together and thought, there must be something with this multi player stuff. They looked at what was available, UO, EQ1, DAOC, great games by the way, but they also realized they could have been expanded upon. Something much more charming, a little less serious at times, with much more to do other than fighting all the time......You know something for everyone.

In an effort to make a world and a true life outside reality they created two sides that would go face to face with each other. They weren't able to communicate, so both sides didn't know what's going on with the other, this was to be hidden. With two sides and with very little in common they need their own personality. So this company decided to make four races for each, eight total and six massive cities where there the players can gather and chat and plan strategies.

This company did so much more, they could read into players minds and personalities. They knew some are shy and like to play alone, yet others like to talk, chat and group. Some like to set off in the world and find that opposing force called the Horde and fight them, but some liked to simply join a pre arranged battle without any major time restraint. Hell, not long after the well built Auction House was made where players can really gamble with their gatherings and truly see if they can make some gold, this was a pure mini game in it self. Sure in modern games much of this is their.... But the speed of how the games are made, this all turned frivolous and not worth the effort. Why sell that blue sword when everyone knows they'll out level it in 15 minuets.

Developers were intelligent back then. Well, they are now too but more corrupt. The focus is not trying to make a HUGE WORLD. They don't bother to make it seamless at all. They don't have 30+ themed zones each with their own story and open world to do what ever you like within them. No, their more carrot on a stick where you have to follow a path......Now their short money makers !

What happened ?... What's the problem ?.......It's now 2017 !

None of this happened in a vacuum. Game developers didn't suddenly wake up one day and decide to give each other lobotomies before designing new games. The biggest blame for the change actually lies at the feet of the game consumers, not the creators.

There's truth to this.

I've told this story before but will do so again.

I was at a PAX Boston event and was speaking with Jeffrey Steefel of Turbine. I had told him that I was not playing the game, didn't like the direction it was going and hated what they did to the Old Forest (which is now even worse).

He told me that the guy who worked on the Old Forest was a young guy but a fan of the older games, such as UO (if memory serves). People were complaining about the old forest, it was too hard, too easy to get lost, etc.

So he asked the Developer to change it. The Developer didn't want to but he did and it seemed that, though there were people unhappy with the change, their feedback was better.

Players want to blame developers but they are most likely just doing their job, they have to deal with other concerns and if they had their druthers, they probably would make a game very different than what we have a lot of today.

And they may or may not be successful.

So they changed their direction/vision based on feedback from a group of players, who were obviously not in their original target audience, because it would seem like a better profit?

Art is crying, business is booming.

Kyleran · March 2017

ikcin said:

Sovrath said:

There's truth to this.

I've told this story before but will do so again.

I was at a PAX Boston event and was speaking with Jeffrey Steefel of Turbine. I had told him that I was not playing the game, didn't like the direction it was going and hated what they did to the Old Forest (which is now even worse).

He told me that the guy who worked on the Old Forest was a young guy but a fan of the older games, such as UO (if memory serves). People were complaining about the old forest, it was too hard, too easy to get lost, etc.

So he asked the Developer to change it. The Developer didn't want to but he did and it seemed that, though there were people unhappy with the change, their feedback was better.

Players want to blame developers but they are most likely just doing their job, they have to deal with other concerns and if they had their druthers, they probably would make a game very different than what we have a lot of today.

And they may or may not be successful.

Now imagine if the customers ask Apple to change the current iPhone, because they do not like the connectivity, or the first iPhone, because they already had iPods. Any manager who reacts to the complains of the customers at such a way is absolutely incompetent. He has no original vision for the product, and he does not know how to advertise and to target the market.

Fairly certain Apple has listened to "customer" feedback and made some changes based on it.

You think those improved camera features were part of the original vision?

Sovrath · March 2017

ikcin said:

Sovrath said:

There's truth to this.

I've told this story before but will do so again.

I was at a PAX Boston event and was speaking with Jeffrey Steefel of Turbine. I had told him that I was not playing the game, didn't like the direction it was going and hated what they did to the Old Forest (which is now even worse).

He told me that the guy who worked on the Old Forest was a young guy but a fan of the older games, such as UO (if memory serves). People were complaining about the old forest, it was too hard, too easy to get lost, etc.

So he asked the Developer to change it. The Developer didn't want to but he did and it seemed that, though there were people unhappy with the change, their feedback was better.

Players want to blame developers but they are most likely just doing their job, they have to deal with other concerns and if they had their druthers, they probably would make a game very different than what we have a lot of today.

And they may or may not be successful.

Now imagine if the customers ask Apple to change the current iPhone, because they do not like the connectivity, or the first iPhone, because they already had iPods. Any manager who reacts to the complains of the customers at such a way is absolutely incompetent. He has no original vision for the product, and he does not know how to advertise and to target the market.

I think you still have to listen to customers. It's what you do with the information as well as knowing where the information is coming from and what drives it that's important.

Sovrath · March 2017

timtrack said:

Sovrath said:

MisterZebub said:

delete5230 said:

I think it was before 2004, a game company got together and thought, there must be something with this multi player stuff. They looked at what was available, UO, EQ1, DAOC, great games by the way, but they also realized they could have been expanded upon. Something much more charming, a little less serious at times, with much more to do other than fighting all the time......You know something for everyone.

In an effort to make a world and a true life outside reality they created two sides that would go face to face with each other. They weren't able to communicate, so both sides didn't know what's going on with the other, this was to be hidden. With two sides and with very little in common they need their own personality. So this company decided to make four races for each, eight total and six massive cities where there the players can gather and chat and plan strategies.

This company did so much more, they could read into players minds and personalities. They knew some are shy and like to play alone, yet others like to talk, chat and group. Some like to set off in the world and find that opposing force called the Horde and fight them, but some liked to simply join a pre arranged battle without any major time restraint. Hell, not long after the well built Auction House was made where players can really gamble with their gatherings and truly see if they can make some gold, this was a pure mini game in it self. Sure in modern games much of this is their.... But the speed of how the games are made, this all turned frivolous and not worth the effort. Why sell that blue sword when everyone knows they'll out level it in 15 minuets.

Developers were intelligent back then. Well, they are now too but more corrupt. The focus is not trying to make a HUGE WORLD. They don't bother to make it seamless at all. They don't have 30+ themed zones each with their own story and open world to do what ever you like within them. No, their more carrot on a stick where you have to follow a path......Now their short money makers !

What happened ?... What's the problem ?.......It's now 2017 !

None of this happened in a vacuum. Game developers didn't suddenly wake up one day and decide to give each other lobotomies before designing new games. The biggest blame for the change actually lies at the feet of the game consumers, not the creators.

There's truth to this.

I've told this story before but will do so again.

I was at a PAX Boston event and was speaking with Jeffrey Steefel of Turbine. I had told him that I was not playing the game, didn't like the direction it was going and hated what they did to the Old Forest (which is now even worse).

He told me that the guy who worked on the Old Forest was a young guy but a fan of the older games, such as UO (if memory serves). People were complaining about the old forest, it was too hard, too easy to get lost, etc.

So he asked the Developer to change it. The Developer didn't want to but he did and it seemed that, though there were people unhappy with the change, their feedback was better.

Players want to blame developers but they are most likely just doing their job, they have to deal with other concerns and if they had their druthers, they probably would make a game very different than what we have a lot of today.

And they may or may not be successful.

So they changed their direction/vision based on feedback from a group of players, who were obviously not in their original target audience, because it would seem like a better profit?

Art is crying, business is booming.

While "I" agree with you one has to ask "who was there target audience?"

There are a lot of assumptions (which makes sense given how little information players truly have access to) made as to why developers do what they do.

I'm sure it's not just a few people complaining on the forums but that they look at whatever metrics they have for any given area and assess what is going on there. Maybe someone said "look, the game always needs to be accessible" and maybe that's what they were supposed to be designing.

Sovrath · March 2017

ikcin said:

Kyleran said:

Fairly certain Apple has listened to "customer" feedback and made some changes based on it.

You think those improved camera features were part of the original vision?

I do not know, you do not know too.

Sovrath said:

I think you still have to listen to customers. It's what you do with the information as well as knowing where the information is coming from and what drives it that's important.

To listen to the customers is entirely different thing. You have to fix the issues related with your product. And that cannot happen without a feedback. But every change in the core of the product shows a simple incompetence. And the major companies are not insured against it. The main problem of many games is the bad management from the publishers.

I don't necessarily think it's from publishers but that you are right in that it's "bad management".

Developers who eschew the services of a publisher also make mistakes.

Octagon7711 · March 2017

Developers follow the money. They would follow the hard core player money if it was more than the casual player money. But the fact is if you want a lot of players in your game you listen and respond. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, in gaming anyway.

Kyleran · March 2017

ikcin said:

Kyleran said:

Fairly certain Apple has listened to "customer" feedback and made some changes based on it.

You think those improved camera features were part of the original vision?

I do not know, you do not know too.

Sovrath said:

I think you still have to listen to customers. It's what you do with the information as well as knowing where the information is coming from and what drives it that's important.

To listen to the customers is entirely different thing. You have to fix the issues related with your product. And that cannot happen without a feedback. But every change in the core of the product shows a simple incompetence. And the major companies are not insured against it. The main problem of many games is the bad management from the publishers.

I went and looked it up....I was wrong. I know, shocking but there had to be a first time.

Apparently it was Steve Jobs policy to never solicit customer feedback. He felt they could not possibly know what they want, especially for things not yet invented

Can't say it's a bad philosophy as it built an empire.

But it also explains why Apple couldn't stop the rise of other giants who built what Apple refused to and their general superiority to iPhones. (which often seemed to be late to the party in recent years)

Now in the post Jobs era Apple has softened their stance on accepting feedback which makes sense really. Smart phones are a pretty mature product in terms of features and functionality and much of what we see new year to year are minor refinements to form or functionality.

I've asked several people including my cell phone provider to my adult children why should I upgrade my G3 this year (been over 2 years) and what is coming out this year to make it worthwhile.

Haven't heard any good replies that I'm looking for like "this phone Bluetooths into your head, or displays on the backside of your glasses."

Someone should start listening to their customers.

DabOnThem · March 2017

Asia no longer feels obligated to give us everything they have, that is what happened.

All the good games are over there. Asian does it better. You can take that however you want to btw...

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

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What happened ?... What's the problem ?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

This have been a good conversation

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV