Video Developer Diary Announces Alpha Delay - Dual Universe - MMORPG.com

SBFord · March 2017

Video Developer Diary Announces Alpha Delay - Dual Universe - MMORPG.com

Dual Universe News - The latest video developer diary for Dual Universe has been released that announces that the alpha has been delayed to a later point "to include a more complete game and a better experience". The original plan was for alpha to launch sometime before mid-year.

Read the full story here

xxBoneZxx · March 2017

This game is going to be so amazing if they keep to their roadmap and vision.

SpottyGekko · March 2017

I'm not even slightly surprised to hear they're delaying the start of alpha.

Given the scope of this game, this is just the first delay of many.

xxBoneZxx · March 2017

SpottyGekko said:

I'm not even slightly surprised to hear they're delaying the start of alpha.

Given the scope of this game, this is just the first delay of many.

Not surprised either. Not even mad. Just want them to get it right. It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen if they do it correctly. SC may have better graphics, but the scope of DU has bigger possibilities.

MaxBacon · March 2017

xxBoneZxx said:
Not surprised either. Not even mad. Just want them to get it right. It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen if they do it correctly. SC may have better graphics, but the scope of DU has bigger possibilities.

Completely different audiences, DU is targeting sandbox, building, etc... It's one game like Empyrion with one larger scope and scale (on the playfield, and MMO scale).

The main thing both do is SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!

SpottyGekko · March 2017

xxBoneZxx said:

SpottyGekko said:

I'm not even slightly surprised to hear they're delaying the start of alpha.

Given the scope of this game, this is just the first delay of many.

Not surprised either. Not even mad. Just want them to get it right. It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen if they do it correctly. SC may have better graphics, but the scope of DU has bigger possibilities.

It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen, EVE and Elite:Dangerous, but it will only appeal to a specific type of player. DU is trying to be the most "sandboxy" MMO since UO, but not everyone likes sandboxes. The average player prefers structured game play and predetermined objectives.

I suspect that EVE may be the biggest loser if DU can actually succeed in implementing their game features as planned. EVE players have the most experience with "carving your own destiny", so they will thrive in DU's wide open universe.

Shynras · March 2017

SpottyGekko said:

xxBoneZxx said:

SpottyGekko said:

I'm not even slightly surprised to hear they're delaying the start of alpha.

Given the scope of this game, this is just the first delay of many.

Not surprised either. Not even mad. Just want them to get it right. It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen if they do it correctly. SC may have better graphics, but the scope of DU has bigger possibilities.

It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen, EVE and Elite:Dangerous, but it will only appeal to a specific type of player. DU is trying to be the most "sandboxy" MMO since UO, but not everyone likes sandboxes. The average player prefers structured game play and predetermined objectives.

I suspect that EVE may be the biggest loser if DU can actually succeed in implementing their game features as planned. EVE players have the most experience with "carving your own destiny", so they will thrive in DU's wide open universe.

Everyone loves sandboxes, look at minecraft. It just depends on how good it is

CrazKanuk · March 2017

SpottyGekko said:

xxBoneZxx said:

SpottyGekko said:

I'm not even slightly surprised to hear they're delaying the start of alpha.

Given the scope of this game, this is just the first delay of many.

Not surprised either. Not even mad. Just want them to get it right. It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen if they do it correctly. SC may have better graphics, but the scope of DU has bigger possibilities.

It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen, EVE and Elite:Dangerous, but it will only appeal to a specific type of player. DU is trying to be the most "sandboxy" MMO since UO, but not everyone likes sandboxes. The average player prefers structured game play and predetermined objectives.

I suspect that EVE may be the biggest loser if DU can actually succeed in implementing their game features as planned. EVE players have the most experience with "carving your own destiny", so they will thrive in DU's wide open universe.

I hate the comparison, since SC, ED, and EVE are all games with $100+ million invested in them. I think that DU has the potential to be a great space game, but we already know that the "frills" like graphics fidelity will never be there. I think in order for it to be successful it needs to try to manage the hype and expectations for the game. Otherwise it'll be just another ball of flames that comes crashing down.

MaxBacon · March 2017

Shynras said:
Everyone loves sandboxes, look at minecraft. It just depends on how good it is

Now look at all the games to fallen into dust trying to milk Minecraft's formula.

The last trying to deliver the sandbox formula within one MMO, was Landmark and RIP that one.

CrazKanuk said:
I think in order for it to be successful it needs to try to manage the hype and expectations for the game. Otherwise it'll be just another ball of flames that comes crashing down.

This is true, when I read into this game it's quite clear the scope of this game is limited to what extent it goes, people should not expect a full fleshed out space sim on the first place, because (like Empyrion) its gameplay has a primary focus on planets, and the simulation seems to be going for a Space Engineers scope due its sandbox building.

Cotic · March 2017

CrazKanuk said:

SpottyGekko said:

xxBoneZxx said:

SpottyGekko said:

I'm not even slightly surprised to hear they're delaying the start of alpha.

Given the scope of this game, this is just the first delay of many.

Not surprised either. Not even mad. Just want them to get it right. It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen if they do it correctly. SC may have better graphics, but the scope of DU has bigger possibilities.

It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen, EVE and Elite:Dangerous, but it will only appeal to a specific type of player. DU is trying to be the most "sandboxy" MMO since UO, but not everyone likes sandboxes. The average player prefers structured game play and predetermined objectives.

I suspect that EVE may be the biggest loser if DU can actually succeed in implementing their game features as planned. EVE players have the most experience with "carving your own destiny", so they will thrive in DU's wide open universe.

I hate the comparison, since SC, ED, and EVE are all games with $100+ million invested in them. I think that DU has the potential to be a great space game, but we already know that the "frills" like graphics fidelity will never be there. I think in order for it to be successful it needs to try to manage the hype and expectations for the game. Otherwise it'll be just another ball of flames that comes crashing down.

@CrazKanuk

You make a good point but it is surprising to hear that Elite has $100+ million invested in it. I thought they had spent about $20 -$25 million before release, another $75 million or more since then seems rather excessive.

CrazKanuk · March 2017

MaxBacon said:

CrazKanuk said:
I think in order for it to be successful it needs to try to manage the hype and expectations for the game. Otherwise it'll be just another ball of flames that comes crashing down.

This is true, when I read into this game it's quite clear the scope of this game is limited to what extent it goes, people should not expect a full fleshed out space sim on the first place, because (like Empyrion) its gameplay has a primary focus on planets, and the simulation seems to be going for a Space Engineers scope due its sandbox building.

Actually Space Engineers is a great example of a game with almost crickets as far as hype goes. I didn't even hear about it until it had been out for like 2 years, lol. That being said they still managed to sell millions of copies. I think DU needs to have some amount of hype to get people through the doors when they open and then hope to maintain that user base, or a good chunk of it, into the future. I think that if they were to go at Space Engineers pace, they might not be sustainable.

Phry · March 2017

CrazKanuk said:

SpottyGekko said:

xxBoneZxx said:

SpottyGekko said:

I'm not even slightly surprised to hear they're delaying the start of alpha.

Given the scope of this game, this is just the first delay of many.

Not surprised either. Not even mad. Just want them to get it right. It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen if they do it correctly. SC may have better graphics, but the scope of DU has bigger possibilities.

It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen, EVE and Elite:Dangerous, but it will only appeal to a specific type of player. DU is trying to be the most "sandboxy" MMO since UO, but not everyone likes sandboxes. The average player prefers structured game play and predetermined objectives.

I suspect that EVE may be the biggest loser if DU can actually succeed in implementing their game features as planned. EVE players have the most experience with "carving your own destiny", so they will thrive in DU's wide open universe.

I hate the comparison, since SC, ED, and EVE are all games with $100+ million invested in them. I think that DU has the potential to be a great space game, but we already know that the "frills" like graphics fidelity will never be there. I think in order for it to be successful it needs to try to manage the hype and expectations for the game. Otherwise it'll be just another ball of flames that comes crashing down.

To compete with Eve it would have to have one of Eves greatest features, and that is where everyone plays on the same server in the game, being able to handle tens of thousands of concurrent players on the same server, Eve averages over 30,000 concurrent players with maximum of twice that, and thats something DU would have to support also, if its to have any hope of competing with Eve.

filmoret · March 2017

3 month delay on alpha is not bad at all.

SpottyGekko · March 2017

Phry said:

CrazKanuk said:

SpottyGekko said:

xxBoneZxx said:

SpottyGekko said:

I'm not even slightly surprised to hear they're delaying the start of alpha.

Given the scope of this game, this is just the first delay of many.

Not surprised either. Not even mad. Just want them to get it right. It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen if they do it correctly. SC may have better graphics, but the scope of DU has bigger possibilities.

It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen, EVE and Elite:Dangerous, but it will only appeal to a specific type of player. DU is trying to be the most "sandboxy" MMO since UO, but not everyone likes sandboxes. The average player prefers structured game play and predetermined objectives.

I suspect that EVE may be the biggest loser if DU can actually succeed in implementing their game features as planned. EVE players have the most experience with "carving your own destiny", so they will thrive in DU's wide open universe.

I hate the comparison, since SC, ED, and EVE are all games with $100+ million invested in them. I think that DU has the potential to be a great space game, but we already know that the "frills" like graphics fidelity will never be there. I think in order for it to be successful it needs to try to manage the hype and expectations for the game. Otherwise it'll be just another ball of flames that comes crashing down.

To compete with Eve it would have to have one of Eves greatest features, and that is where everyone plays on the same server in the game, being able to handle tens of thousands of concurrent players on the same server, Eve averages over 30,000 concurrent players with maximum of twice that, and thats something DU would have to support also, if its to have any hope of competing with Eve.

I did not intend to hold up DU as an "EVE-killer". I was just suggesting that the very open-ended game play of DU might appeal most to players of EVE, since they would appreciate the completely player-driven world of DU.

AFAIK DU (as currently planned) will be the most free-form MMO to date, with an entirely player-driven economy and political system. Like EVE, it will be a "single shard" universe, supposedly supporting tens of thousands of players concurrently. And being fully voxel based, all structures, ships and vehicles will potentially be unique, built-up from a wide selection of pre-made components.

DU is quite definitely the most ambitious MMO design I've ever seen, and even though I'm very sceptical, I sincerely hope they can pull it off...

CrazKanuk · March 2017

Phry said:

CrazKanuk said:

SpottyGekko said:

xxBoneZxx said:

SpottyGekko said:

I'm not even slightly surprised to hear they're delaying the start of alpha.

Given the scope of this game, this is just the first delay of many.

Not surprised either. Not even mad. Just want them to get it right. It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen if they do it correctly. SC may have better graphics, but the scope of DU has bigger possibilities.

It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen, EVE and Elite:Dangerous, but it will only appeal to a specific type of player. DU is trying to be the most "sandboxy" MMO since UO, but not everyone likes sandboxes. The average player prefers structured game play and predetermined objectives.

I suspect that EVE may be the biggest loser if DU can actually succeed in implementing their game features as planned. EVE players have the most experience with "carving your own destiny", so they will thrive in DU's wide open universe.

I hate the comparison, since SC, ED, and EVE are all games with $100+ million invested in them. I think that DU has the potential to be a great space game, but we already know that the "frills" like graphics fidelity will never be there. I think in order for it to be successful it needs to try to manage the hype and expectations for the game. Otherwise it'll be just another ball of flames that comes crashing down.

To compete with Eve it would have to have one of Eves greatest features, and that is where everyone plays on the same server in the game, being able to handle tens of thousands of concurrent players on the same server, Eve averages over 30,000 concurrent players with maximum of twice that, and thats something DU would have to support also, if its to have any hope of competing with Eve.

Yes, well they've created server tech which, apparently, handles millions, so no worries there :awesome:

MaxBacon · March 2017

CrazKanuk said:
Actually Space Engineers is a great example of a game with almost crickets as far as hype goes. I didn't even hear about it until it had been out for like 2 years, lol. That being said they still managed to sell millions of copies. I think DU needs to have some amount of hype to get people through the doors when they open and then hope to maintain that user base, or a good chunk of it, into the future. I think that if they were to go at Space Engineers pace, they might not be sustainable.

It can be yeah, it's kinda what I was to point with it, on expectations, this is more of one Space Engineers, not one ED/SC/EvE, especially within its space sim aspect. And that is perfectly fine by itself, just a matter of being aware of the game DU is and its depth.

CrazKanuk · March 2017

Cotic said:

CrazKanuk said:

SpottyGekko said:

xxBoneZxx said:

SpottyGekko said:

I'm not even slightly surprised to hear they're delaying the start of alpha.

Given the scope of this game, this is just the first delay of many.

Not surprised either. Not even mad. Just want them to get it right. It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen if they do it correctly. SC may have better graphics, but the scope of DU has bigger possibilities.

It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen, EVE and Elite:Dangerous, but it will only appeal to a specific type of player. DU is trying to be the most "sandboxy" MMO since UO, but not everyone likes sandboxes. The average player prefers structured game play and predetermined objectives.

I suspect that EVE may be the biggest loser if DU can actually succeed in implementing their game features as planned. EVE players have the most experience with "carving your own destiny", so they will thrive in DU's wide open universe.

I hate the comparison, since SC, ED, and EVE are all games with $100+ million invested in them. I think that DU has the potential to be a great space game, but we already know that the "frills" like graphics fidelity will never be there. I think in order for it to be successful it needs to try to manage the hype and expectations for the game. Otherwise it'll be just another ball of flames that comes crashing down.

@CrazKanuk

You make a good point but it is surprising to hear that Elite has $100+ million invested in it. I thought they had spent about $20 -$25 million before release, another $75 million or more since then seems rather excessive.

Actually, I'd say they are well over that. What most people don't know is that Frontiers actually went public in order to make ED, so they've raised the majority of their funding through that. Their Market cap is currently sitting at around 100 million GBP alone, but their stock has also increased recently. I think it was around 80 last year. Anyway, on top of that their model allows they to capitalize on revenues and re-invest that. Conservatively, if they were at 2 million copies sold (Steam has 1 million alone and people tend to believe that is lower than 50% total sales). So that would put their sales around $80 million for the base game alone. Then there are expansions that they can leverage. So, yeah, they are well over $100 million raised. How much spent on development? No idea.

Gdemami · March 2017

Cotic said:
You make a good point but it is surprising to hear that Elite has $100+ million invested in it.

It doesn't. I do not think development costs were ever disclosed.

CrazKanuk · March 2017

Gdemami said:

Cotic said:
You make a good point but it is surprising to hear that Elite has $100+ million invested in it.

It doesn't. I do not think development costs were ever disclosed.

Their COO discusses it right on their website. Their IPO was specifically the avenue selected in lieu of taking on private investors or taking on debt. Since the IPO was directly in response to ED, and since their market cap is 100 million GBX and their current shareprice is 300 GBX, that means that there are around 330,000 shares outstanding. The median price over the last 52 weeks was 240 GBX, which is 79.2 GBX which converts roughly to $96 million. Are you doing that just because you know I'm anal? Lol

Gdemami · March 2017

CrazKanuk said:
Their COO discusses it right on their website.

No, he doesn't.

Phaserlight · March 2017

Gdemami said:

CrazKanuk said:
Their COO discusses it right on their website.

No, he doesn't.

Not on that link, perhaps, but Frontier did file a detailed financial report which is all I was ever asking from CIG back in 2013-2014:

http://ar2016.frontier.co.uk

Now I just don't care: CIG/RSI doesn't have to, they're not going to, whatever. Frontier's report is a nice proxy, however, whenever a SC fan looks at me like I have 3 heads for suggesting they disclose financials.

SpottyGekko said:

Phry said:

CrazKanuk said:

SpottyGekko said:

xxBoneZxx said:

SpottyGekko said:

I'm not even slightly surprised to hear they're delaying the start of alpha.

Given the scope of this game, this is just the first delay of many.

Not surprised either. Not even mad. Just want them to get it right. It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen if they do it correctly. SC may have better graphics, but the scope of DU has bigger possibilities.

It has the potential to compete with Star Citizen, EVE and Elite:Dangerous, but it will only appeal to a specific type of player. DU is trying to be the most "sandboxy" MMO since UO, but not everyone likes sandboxes. The average player prefers structured game play and predetermined objectives.

I suspect that EVE may be the biggest loser if DU can actually succeed in implementing their game features as planned. EVE players have the most experience with "carving your own destiny", so they will thrive in DU's wide open universe.

I hate the comparison, since SC, ED, and EVE are all games with $100+ million invested in them. I think that DU has the potential to be a great space game, but we already know that the "frills" like graphics fidelity will never be there. I think in order for it to be successful it needs to try to manage the hype and expectations for the game. Otherwise it'll be just another ball of flames that comes crashing down.

To compete with Eve it would have to have one of Eves greatest features, and that is where everyone plays on the same server in the game, being able to handle tens of thousands of concurrent players on the same server, Eve averages over 30,000 concurrent players with maximum of twice that, and thats something DU would have to support also, if its to have any hope of competing with Eve.

I did not intend to hold up DU as an "EVE-killer". I was just suggesting that the very open-ended game play of DU might appeal most to players of EVE, since they would appreciate the completely player-driven world of DU.

AFAIK DU (as currently planned) will be the most free-form MMO to date, with an entirely player-driven economy and political system. Like EVE, it will be a "single shard" universe, supposedly supporting tens of thousands of players concurrently. And being fully voxel based, all structures, ships and vehicles will potentially be unique, built-up from a wide selection of pre-made components.

DU is quite definitely the most ambitious MMO design I've ever seen, and even though I'm very sceptical, I sincerely hope they can pull it off...

I hate to be cynical, but I just read the bolded text as 'our game development team lacks direction'. I could be wrong.

If this type of design works, it often works spectacularly. If it fails, well... maybe you should have gone with some concrete objectives. Even sandboxy games like Terraria have progressive biomes and bosses.

Eve today as a "simple free-form political sandbox" has something DU lacks: player history and a proven player economy.

Finally, how big is the universe in DU? There is a difference between tens of thousands of players in a 8,000 star system world and a 100 billion star system world.

CrazKanuk · March 2017

Gdemami said:

CrazKanuk said:
Their COO discusses it right on their website.

No, he doesn't.

Ok, that was my interpretation of
"The more we looked into an IPO, the more sense it made to use that route rather than debt or VC to access money if possible. The capital markets are designed to provide exactly what we want – funds to enhance our business and support the existing successful management team. We’d be backed to run the company as we have been doing (with some sensible, enhanced governance checks and balances), with the focus on long term value and short term delivery and agility that we wanted. "

I don't think that their IPO coinciding with their successful Kickstarter campaign for ED, considering the company has run for decades without that funding, was such a far stretch. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they've got 300 devs working on a new Roller Coaster Tycoon

Gdemami · March 2017

CrazKanuk said:
Ok, that was my interpretation of

Indeed it is and wrong on top...

CrazKanuk · March 2017

Gdemami said:

CrazKanuk said:
Ok, that was my interpretation of

Indeed it is and wrong on top...

I never said I was wrong. Actually, I still think I'm right. That is unless you think that a company spending $25 million annually on operations to make a roller coaster game (all they've done since 2013, other than ED) is reasonable.

Is that what you're saying? If so, at very least it's great context for future conversations, so thanks.

Gdemami · March 2017

CrazKanuk said:
Actually, I still think I'm right.

There is no doubt you believe that, yet it is apparent you can't make a difference between expense(cost), income and shares...

CrazKanuk · March 2017

Gdemami said:

CrazKanuk said:
Actually, I still think I'm right.

There is no doubt you believe that, yet it is apparent you can't make a difference between expense(cost), income and shares...

I haven't been enlightened, I suppose. As far as expense goes, though, salary and labor burden is nearly your lone cost in software development, where labor burden includes things like rent, software licensing, tools, etc. I'm not sure what other costs you might take on in a software house.

Also, I expressed what their market cap was, which is a direct reflection of their outstanding shares. While I will admit that there was SOME amount of speculation based on those numbers, because we'd have to do a detailed daily analysis to be certain. That being said, I don't think it's unreasonable to take a median number and calculate that against outstanding shares to get a number that is, even, +/- 10%. Again, feel free to enlighten me. I mean it's wildly off topic at this point, but I'm actually interested to get some feedback on those numbers. Where do you place a 4+ year development effort of a staff of 200-300 people? I mean is $100 million that big a stretch?

Looking forward to any insight you might have on this.

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