And going back to school to study gaming is one of those silly arguments. I think Nasa has really bungled space exploration. I guess I should start my own space agency then. Or I had pneumonia one time and the doctor didn't take a sputum culture and I think the antibiotics were the wrong ones because they did absolutely nothing. I guess as soon as I was feeling better I should have enrolled in medical school using your logic.
But that's exactly how the world works - if you think something can be done better, you do it better. That's why we have the X-prizes for private space flights - because people with resources are tired of waiting for NASA to do everything.
I'm fine with opinionated gamers (goodness knows I'm one of them) - the problem is when we start getting mad at the industry and become loud and demanding about it. We get a choice between all the games which the industry offers (and, on the rare occasion we catch an insider's ear, we ramble on), but we have no *right* to our ideal game. We can describe it, we can ask for it, but when someone gets mad that it isn't being made, that's when I feel like saying "whoa, stop, go make it yourself if you want it that bad"
it is always moderately annoying as a person who was a vanilla WoW player to read how "easy" WoW was. You didn't see very many people per server with the same gear. Sure as the next tier came out more people had many of the older tier of gear, but it was not anything like WoW of now. $$$ got to the bigwigs and it destroyed what was awesome in vanilla WoW. Vanilla WoW required teamwork to accomplish anything of signifigance. Yes in a 40 man raid a few people could slack now and then, but not if you were actually cutting into new content. An entire raid wipe could be attributed to a single person messing up. Sure once it was on farm status 1/3 the raid could yawn through older stuff until the new big bad was up for killing, but the top guilds on each server pushed and battled for that distinction.
That being said..... the EXPANSIONS of WoW dumbed down content into oblivion. They saw the $ and instead of maintaining dificulty decided to cater to the casual. Now every company sees the fluke success WoW had and instead of seeing what STARTED WoW on its path of domincance and capturing the crowd that build WoW into a cultural phinomenon, everyone is just trying to copy what WoW is now and capture the fickle players that drift from instant gratification game to instant gratification game.
considering how many MMO's flopped last year and considering that most are terrible anyway, we are lucky we still have a genre to play
1. fans create the games not corporations ( sorry wrong )
if you counted all the ideas on any game forum that the fans would like to have in game , the vast majority are game killing ideas, the fans ocasionaly have some phenominal ideas listening to those fans is the difference between keeping your job, or gettinng fired when the game flops.
2. failed MMO's don't lie the OP is just in denial about it, the MMO industry is at a crossroads its time to change or die. The latest theme park wow copies + some minor innovation feature the last few of those went F2P to avoid being cancelled.
3. some indie games are great most are downright awful for every Braid there are 20 indie titles no one has heard of cause they are not any good.
4. Some of the most genre definning games that every one copies even sandbox titles were created by AAA studios with a massive budget.
5. People that bitch about corporations still live with their parents , nuff said they don't get it.
Players are do responsible but to an extend. You can vote with your wallet, true--but when you don't have a frame of reference or a better option you'd believe this is the best game your money can buy.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Games need word of mouth and an effort to get new people into the game outside of marketing or it inevitably fails... how are kids going to find out about PC games these days? They now have phones and console games with better graphics and storyline and holdhanding.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
That's not entirely true. Good games are made by big companies all the time. Horizon, Zelda, Nioh, even some of the big shooters like Battlefield. I support whatever looks good. A game made by true fans isn't always good as well. There are ALOT of indie garbage games that come out, there are ALOT of bad games made by fans of games. I support games I want to play, I supported Darkfall, I supported MO, I supported Albion, I supported everything I wanted to play, so far I haven't been burned too many times.
So support crappy games in HOPES they might get big and make better games,,,so a dream.
Many Indie games are being created and that is 100% fact but they are not good games and i do not want to support crappy games. Market is flooded,so how do you propose we support thousands of developers,i only have time for a few games.
This is why you CHOOSE and should support the ones doing good quality work.
I have long lived by a simple ideal,if you cannot do your business venture justice,don't bother trying ,your only continue to flood the market with more crap.
You START by showing you are talented,then get hired by a quality studio and they WILL hire you if skilled.Then when you have several talented people you go out and get a loan or investment firms to create your quality game. Another ideal i believe in,is that if you are not confident in yourself/team to INVEST in your own work,then why should anyone else trust in you...ahem right Chris? There is also a lo of false beliefs that most of these studios are INdie,most have industry vets behind them. Another problem...these are businesses first and game developers second.SO weather they are actually passionate game developers doesn't even matter,if they do not follow [protocol and stick to a budget no matter how bad the quality is,they will lose their shirt or i mean OUR money since that is the current trend. A guy like Robert's makes me sick because he has been afforded unlimited cash,so he can fail over and over but nobody will know because he has no deadline and the money keeps rolling in,MOST if not all devs cannot operate like that.That is what happened to Vanguard,no money,too bad,we have to release or we lose the business,we are FORCED to risk a premature release,Robert's doesn't have to release anything.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Most game companies make games that they expect people will want to play. They base that expectation on market data and research.
Very few companies have the mindset "Eat your beets. You may not yet realize it, but you will like them and they are good for you." That is a big financial gamble to take.
Yes you contribute to the creation of other games like the ones you choose to play. But the game you choose to play already correctly predicted you would like it.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
ArcheAge was a masterpiece, but just because a game is great, doesn't mean it will be managed properly. I have never nor will I ever be a fan of F2P or hybrid monetization MMOs. Either P2P or B2P and if you need a cash shop, then sell fluff items only with absolutely zero in-game advantages, such as costumes, weapon skins, armor skins, mount skins or housing / furniture items.
Quite honestly the OP is right. Gamers got what they ask for. ARCHEAGE is pay to win because apparently the game company think they'll make more money that way.
What I disagree with the OP is supporting indie company. Things fail because there are no market for it. Of course if for some miracle someone might come up with a master piece with low budget. But that is unlikely.
it is always moderately annoying as a person who was a vanilla WoW player to read how "easy" WoW was. You didn't see very many people per server with the same gear. Sure as the next tier came out more people had many of the older tier of gear, but it was not anything like WoW of now. $$$ got to the bigwigs and it destroyed what was awesome in vanilla WoW. Vanilla WoW required teamwork to accomplish anything of signifigance. Yes in a 40 man raid a few people could slack now and then, but not if you were actually cutting into new content. An entire raid wipe could be attributed to a single person messing up. Sure once it was on farm status 1/3 the raid could yawn through older stuff until the new big bad was up for killing, but the top guilds on each server pushed and battled for that distinction.
That being said..... the EXPANSIONS of WoW dumbed down content into oblivion. They saw the $ and instead of maintaining dificulty decided to cater to the casual. Now every company sees the fluke success WoW had and instead of seeing what STARTED WoW on its path of domincance and capturing the crowd that build WoW into a cultural phinomenon, everyone is just trying to copy what WoW is now and capture the fickle players that drift from instant gratification game to instant gratification game.
Everything is relative... Vanilla Wow was easier then the majority of the late 90s MMOs but it was also way more difficult then the MMOs of today.
And I think that Blizz got the perfect difficulty to maximize the players and keep them interested long term from the start. Now Wow and most have gone way too far and lost most of the longterm fun MMOs used to have because of that.
Players do initially have more fun when it doesn't take weeks or months to really learn how to play the game but they also tire fast. The problem is that most devs today only seems interested in short term and think a million players for a month is better then 250K players for a year.
What makes you think that none of the people working for big corporations are true gamers or fans? 3D artists may not be in high demand outside of the gaming industry, but highly skilled programmers sure are. A lot of people who program games for a living could make more money with better working conditions in another industry.
I'll grant that some "games" are basically pay money to win without much of an underlying game. But a lot of games made by big corporations aren't like that at all.
Developers getting into their own game as hardcore as a players is a double-edged sword. People may feel cheated out of paranoia of favoritism. They also may not recognize the problems that new players have as easily because from an established players point of view, the game is going fine so long as everyone in their clan is happy but that doesn't mean the game is doing good. The more developers love their own creation, the less likely they will make changes to dumb down the experience for everyone to cater to bigger market... but does that really help?
I never said to support crappy games.. lot of good games have problems though. I recently been enjoying Conan Exiles but its too laggy really... really hangs up my system and takes too long to load the game. There are some bugs making me relog and its so annoying because it takes up to 20 minutes sometimes. Still would recommend the game to others though as its a good game.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
Kickstarter is exactly for this. Without crowdsourcing, most small guys never have the chance to develop any MMOs worth playing, since the customer has been used to paying for the product when it's ready.
With all this pre-order crap and beta access and whatnot, the customers have sneakily been taught to pay for the products in advance, with no guarantee that the product will be any good.
I wonder how long it will last, until Caveat Emptor will again reign and people will pay only when they get a working product in their hands.
In the current state the kickstarter is the bane of MMOs. It does not require any sort of concrete business plan. it does not even require a working model so anyone with a bit of market savy and a keyboard can sell vapor ware and blow smoke up your ass until you glow.
The laws need to change and that will probably never happen so don't count on a lot of decent stuff from kickstarters unless they already have a MMO background and personal finances invested in excess of a couple million dollars.
Yep. Games are not boring. The people playing them are. I really get tired of the whiny crowd claiming the game I am having so much fun in sucks cause it does not entertain them. People are dull and lack imagination. They need to analyze themselves and find their true calling. Maybe online gaming isn't it. Maybe they need to date, raise a family, or read a book.
The failure is not entirely that of the players. Sure, when we tell the big companies with our money that bad games are good that's part of the problem. We, as players, need to be smart enough to not be all like "shut up and take our money!" every time we see a overly hyped new game that promises us many things but will ultimately fail to deliver on most of them. We have to ask questions, gather information and refuse to spend a single dime until we know for sure the game is truly worth playing. As soon as we pay we have just told the companies with our money they are on the right track (even if it becomes clear after playing the game a little that they totally missed the mark).
However, the companies behind these games are also to blame. Rarely do they allow their developers free reign to create the game they envisioned. Instead, much to the developer's frustration, the corporate interests funding the entire thing chime in. Armed with
sketchy information from various consultants that may or may not know
anything about games, they force the devs and writers to change their
game into something they see as being more marketable and less risky. Even if a development team loves games and truly wants to give the players the game they want, Corporate greed invariably wins and the developer's grand vision gets watered down into a soulless re-skinned version of every other modern game. Most often this happens before the game ever gets launched (and is why many of the hype-building teaser trailer videos show content that never makes the 'final cut' and isn't in the game at release). There are also times when the game gets drastically changed long after release in a way that alienates the majority of their existing players because the company wants it to go in a "different direction" to attract new players (SOE was infamous for killing games like that).
Simply going to school, becoming a programmer and getting a job developing games for a major AAA company won't change anything. Your hands will also be tied like the many idealistic developers before you. As a corporate developer you will not make the games you want. You'll make whatever uninspired, soulless garbage the company tells you to or you get fired and replaced. That's how it is.
Once I played a game where players like us had a close relationship with the developers. They would openly discuss things with us in the forums and sometimes in the game as GMs or even on their own characters (they played it too but rarely since working on it kept them busy). Our common bond was our love for the game. Unfortunately the company hosting the game didn't share our fondness for it. To them we (players, developers, and the game itself) were just numbers on a spreadsheet, a profit margin, a means to an end. Long tragic story short: The company wasn't content with a steady income from a loyal, happy player base. They ignored existing players, ignored their own developers and GMs, and took it upon themselves based on financial projections and the idiotic ideas of pencil pushers to make unpopular changes to the game to "attract new players". They ruined it. The original developers we knew and loved resigned from their jobs and many players left the game too. The game died as result.
Nobody can tell me corporate greed isn't a major problem with current game development.
I honestly just see developers stop trying. Before when developer are not sure what works and what not, they'll try different things. Now developers see what don't work, most games become streamlined and become what they were now.
The only real good games will be made by 2 guys in their mums basement with a playerbase of 52.
I believe you're referring to Pathfinder Online right?
Although that game fits that criteria I was thinking more the lines of Eutopia Online, Deloria, RPGWO, RPGMO, Terra World etc. Have no idea if any of those game still exist but their some of the games I've spent years playing in a past life.
Comments
But that's exactly how the world works - if you think something can be done better, you do it better. That's why we have the X-prizes for private space flights - because people with resources are tired of waiting for NASA to do everything.
I'm fine with opinionated gamers (goodness knows I'm one of them) - the problem is when we start getting mad at the industry and become loud and demanding about it. We get a choice between all the games which the industry offers (and, on the rare occasion we catch an insider's ear, we ramble on), but we have no *right* to our ideal game. We can describe it, we can ask for it, but when someone gets mad that it isn't being made, that's when I feel like saying "whoa, stop, go make it yourself if you want it that bad"
it is always moderately annoying as a person who was a vanilla WoW player to read how "easy" WoW was. You didn't see very many people per server with the same gear. Sure as the next tier came out more people had many of the older tier of gear, but it was not anything like WoW of now. $$$ got to the bigwigs and it destroyed what was awesome in vanilla WoW. Vanilla WoW required teamwork to accomplish anything of signifigance. Yes in a 40 man raid a few people could slack now and then, but not if you were actually cutting into new content. An entire raid wipe could be attributed to a single person messing up. Sure once it was on farm status 1/3 the raid could yawn through older stuff until the new big bad was up for killing, but the top guilds on each server pushed and battled for that distinction.
That being said..... the EXPANSIONS of WoW dumbed down content into oblivion. They saw the $ and instead of maintaining dificulty decided to cater to the casual. Now every company sees the fluke success WoW had and instead of seeing what STARTED WoW on its path of domincance and capturing the crowd that build WoW into a cultural phinomenon, everyone is just trying to copy what WoW is now and capture the fickle players that drift from instant gratification game to instant gratification game.
considering how many MMO's flopped last year and considering that most are terrible anyway, we are lucky we still have a genre to play
1. fans create the games not corporations ( sorry wrong )
if you counted all the ideas on any game forum that the fans would like to have in game , the vast majority are game killing ideas, the fans ocasionaly have some phenominal ideas listening to those fans is the difference between keeping your job, or gettinng fired when the game flops.
2. failed MMO's don't lie the OP is just in denial about it, the MMO industry is at a crossroads its time to change or die. The latest theme park wow copies + some minor innovation feature the last few of those went F2P to avoid being cancelled.
3. some indie games are great most are downright awful for every Braid there are 20 indie titles no one has heard of cause they are not any good.
4. Some of the most genre definning games that every one copies even sandbox titles were created by AAA studios with a massive budget.
5. People that bitch about corporations still live with their parents , nuff said they don't get it.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
So support crappy games in HOPES they might get big and make better games,,,so a dream.
Many Indie games are being created and that is 100% fact but they are not good games and i do not want to support crappy games.
Market is flooded,so how do you propose we support thousands of developers,i only have time for a few games.
This is why you CHOOSE and should support the ones doing good quality work.
I have long lived by a simple ideal,if you cannot do your business venture justice,don't bother trying ,your only continue to flood the market with more crap.
You START by showing you are talented,then get hired by a quality studio and they WILL hire you if skilled.Then when you have several talented people you go out and get a loan or investment firms to create your quality game.
Another ideal i believe in,is that if you are not confident in yourself/team to INVEST in your own work,then why should anyone else trust in you...ahem right Chris?
There is also a lo of false beliefs that most of these studios are INdie,most have industry vets behind them.
Another problem...these are businesses first and game developers second.SO weather they are actually passionate game developers doesn't even matter,if they do not follow [protocol and stick to a budget no matter how bad the quality is,they will lose their shirt or i mean OUR money since that is the current trend.
A guy like Robert's makes me sick because he has been afforded unlimited cash,so he can fail over and over but nobody will know because he has no deadline and the money keeps rolling in,MOST if not all devs cannot operate like that.That is what happened to Vanguard,no money,too bad,we have to release or we lose the business,we are FORCED to risk a premature release,Robert's doesn't have to release anything.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Very few companies have the mindset "Eat your beets. You may not yet realize it, but you will like them and they are good for you." That is a big financial gamble to take.
Yes you contribute to the creation of other games like the ones you choose to play. But the game you choose to play already correctly predicted you would like it.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
What I disagree with the OP is supporting indie company. Things fail because there are no market for it. Of course if for some miracle someone might come up with a master piece with low budget. But that is unlikely.
And I think that Blizz got the perfect difficulty to maximize the players and keep them interested long term from the start. Now Wow and most have gone way too far and lost most of the longterm fun MMOs used to have because of that.
Players do initially have more fun when it doesn't take weeks or months to really learn how to play the game but they also tire fast. The problem is that most devs today only seems interested in short term and think a million players for a month is better then 250K players for a year.
And some games don't have the initial high drop off, because it never have huge initial rush in the first place.
Why the hell are you folks dusting off this 8 Track?
I'll grant that some "games" are basically pay money to win without much of an underlying game. But a lot of games made by big corporations aren't like that at all.
I never said to support crappy games.. lot of good games have problems though. I recently been enjoying Conan Exiles but its too laggy really... really hangs up my system and takes too long to load the game. There are some bugs making me relog and its so annoying because it takes up to 20 minutes sometimes. Still would recommend the game to others though as its a good game.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
The laws need to change and that will probably never happen so don't count on a lot of decent stuff from kickstarters unless they already have a MMO background and personal finances invested in excess of a couple million dollars.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
However, the companies behind these games are also to blame. Rarely do they allow their developers free reign to create the game they envisioned. Instead, much to the developer's frustration, the corporate interests funding the entire thing chime in. Armed with sketchy information from various consultants that may or may not know anything about games, they force the devs and writers to change their game into something they see as being more marketable and less risky.
Even if a development team loves games and truly wants to give the players the game they want, Corporate greed invariably wins and the developer's grand vision gets watered down into a soulless re-skinned version of every other modern game.
Most often this happens before the game ever gets launched (and is why many of the hype-building teaser trailer videos show content that never makes the 'final cut' and isn't in the game at release). There are also times when the game gets drastically changed long after release in a way that alienates the majority of their existing players because the company wants it to go in a "different direction" to attract new players (SOE was infamous for killing games like that).
Simply going to school, becoming a programmer and getting a job developing games for a major AAA company won't change anything. Your hands will also be tied like the many idealistic developers before you. As a corporate developer you will not make the games you want. You'll make whatever uninspired, soulless garbage the company tells you to or you get fired and replaced. That's how it is.
Once I played a game where players like us had a close relationship with the developers. They would openly discuss things with us in the forums and sometimes in the game as GMs or even on their own characters (they played it too but rarely since working on it kept them busy). Our common bond was our love for the game. Unfortunately the company hosting the game didn't share our fondness for it. To them we (players, developers, and the game itself) were just numbers on a spreadsheet, a profit margin, a means to an end. Long tragic story short: The company wasn't content with a steady income from a loyal, happy player base. They ignored existing players, ignored their own developers and GMs, and took it upon themselves based on financial projections and the idiotic ideas of pencil pushers to make unpopular changes to the game to "attract new players". They ruined it. The original developers we knew and loved resigned from their jobs and many players left the game too. The game died as result.
Nobody can tell me corporate greed isn't a major problem with current game development.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.