Its 2016 and people still thinking that levels = the only form of progression?
How about MEANINGFUL PROGRESSION. Players want to see they are advancing in a game. How do you show it without levels? I played TSW and hated the non-level progression.
Grind of any sort is offputting, but what is considered grind will differ from player to player.
...
To others, leveling is not a grind and this won't put them off. I have plenty of friends who couldn't care less about challenging content or pvp, they simply enjoy the storylines, enjoy unlocking new skills, enjoy earning near gear and enjoy doing so whilst being able to chat with friends and occasionally group up. For them, leveling up IS the game, so removing it would put them off.
Same here. My question is why are they playing an MMO?
Single player RPGs don't have to support the massive server infrastructure nor operational staff that an MMO does. It stands to reason (or should) that their devs can devote more resources to making outstanding quests and art. They have more experimental freedom.
Yes, MMO's need solo capable activities. I find it baffling that the thinking is that those need to be a major focus or worse, the trend towards solo-only development.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
So being an RPG means you have to mindlessly grind levels, gear and your gaming soul? I can see why we got soulless themeparks. Players will put up with any garbage gameplay for a reward.
I think some of you have it backwards. If you're goal is to grind out single player content why play a MMORPG? Regular RPGS work and play better.
Social interaction and the virtual world is why I play MMORPG. Character development is there but I don't see a point of it being the whole game and it doesn't have to be vast.
Some games are pvp games that wears a mmorpg skin, and these fail to attract their core player types by introducing mmorpg features such as grind, leveling and quests. And then we get confused players who do not like mmorpgs but think they are playing one because it has some mmorpg specific features.
The problem is not grind, the problem is games that are not mmorpgs attract people who really don't enjoy mmorpgs. Some make xp grind, some make gear grind, some make point grind, daily mission grinds - And the simpler this grind is, the more boring it will feel.. grind is supposed to empower the devoted player and this is the a core mmorpg mechanic.
The thing about leveling (or gaining power through another method as some games have) can be fun if you do it right but almost all MMOs from the last 10 years just use them as a long and uninspired tutorial. There is zero challenge and there is really no point running dungeons or trying to get good gear before you hit max level anymore.
In EQ and for that matter even vanilla Wow leveling could be tough and you spent enough time on each level so you bothered to get good gear and spend time to explore the zones and questlines there. Now you just skip past things and I think that is the wrong way to go.
The start thing I would do is to cut down the number of levels (20-40 should be about right) and cut down the leveling time so you at least max out the same speed as a modern game with 80+ levels or somewhat slower. Also, make it at least hard to level if you have crappy gear to encourage players to run dungeons and other stuff where you get good gear.
As a bonus you get it easier to find people closer to your level. And I know at least 2 games who done well with few levels: DDO & Guildwars so the idea works. I don't know why MMO devs think MMOs today should have 100 or more levels, it doesn't make the game more fun, it just means that leveling stopped meaning something, in M59 or EQ when someone wrote "ding" in the chat it meant something (*god Im old*).
You could of course also skip levels altogether and replace it with a bit less breaking slow progression instead, maybe just using EQs AA but skip the levels or something closer to GW2s mastery points. MMOs should have more progression then just gear but it can be far more subtile progression which do work well particularly in PvP.
Its only a grind if you play alone and refuse to socialize.
No, it can be grindy when you are with other people as well.
It is a grind when you aren't having fun and get bored and while it is easier to have fun in good company at least I can be bored with others around as well.
I do not agree with OP in the least. One of my first MMO's was Lineage 2 and I managed to grind my way to max level in that game several times. That was the grind from hell and it got much worse at later levels. I have yet to see a game come close to matching that level of grind. Not that I want too. However, I do feel that a progression system is necessary.
If you don't have some way of developing your character, of charting your progression you will get bored. Humans need to have that "carrot" in front of them, I would say especially people that play MMO's. There has to be an incentive to progress and mile markers to indicate how far you have come. Gaining strength through a vertical progression system is one of the best way's to do that. Look at the corporate world, very people start as the CEO, look at the military, you don't star your military career as the Commandant, there is progression, or levels. In the real world it revolves around money and responsibility, and perhaps privilege, in games it is represented by power, flashier equipment, bigger swords and the ability to go places people that are not your level can't go.
TL/DR: It only makes sense to have a system of progression.
I am now playing L2 Classic where the exp required to level up has been significantly increased comparing to original early chronicles
Not sure what this has to do with anything.
You were talking about the extreme level of grind that used to be in L2. I was just saying that now they brought the game back and even significantly increased the grind comparing to the original game.
Nevermind...
What made me out of L2 Classic is not the grind, but all the broken mechanics they've brought to the game, it feels even more unbalanced than before. And I pointed the fact that an MMO which requires 4+ different support classes in parties no longer works in the west.
Broken-unbalanced mechanics-unbalanced classes were the major reason for the failure of L2C EU, the secondary reasons were: Russian RMT and the fact that western players can't deal with playing support classes such as PP anymore.
So is theis the appeal of MOBAs? Dont have to work for anything, character already finished when you start?
In MOBA's the character actually starts at level 1 every match and you get to build them in different ways as you see fit. You have to "work" at getting good, rather than getting gear/levels.
I would say the appeal of MOBA is that it strips out all the boring grind while still offering a sense of progression, while the format of most MOBA allows for considerable strategy, team work, and individual skill.
However, MOBA don't offer persistent characters and worlds. A pure RvR based mmo that eliminates needless grind and requires progression through pvp is still waiting to be made imo (although WAR was pretty close to the mark).
If the level grind is dull and boring, yes it'll turn ppl off. If it's fun, no. You're just playing a poorly designed game, OP, that's all.
LOL what he is describing doesn't exist.. as far as I can tell.. Rift
and GW2 that he complained about are probably as grind free as you can
get for the most part, or at least compared to other games they have no
grind.
i rather short level
caps. then to grinder dev should create something like achievement.
kill over 9k rats. there u go. grind all u want
upon finished it there is another 9k tier 2. its has 9k tiers
once u complete every tier u get a tittle. rat will insta die once u get tier 9k
Guild Wars did stuff like that and it worked, but from the OPs
perspective even that was a grind because not only does he want no
progression, he also wants instant travel... no locked content, etc.
I disagree with OP. Actually I lose interest in MMORPGS when I reach the level cap in most cases.
Pretty much how it went for me in Rift, TERA, SWTOR, and Aion one max level character and quit because there was nothing really at end game besides gear grind raiding which I gave up on after WOW.
I've seen people do this in every launch that I have played (and that is a lot).. people quit when they reach the endgame, so how much faster would they quit without any grind?
Grind of any sort is offputting, but what is considered grind will differ from player to player.
What from I read from your post, I think you really would have liked Darkfall Unholy War's leveling.. everything you did gave you experience and you could distribute it wherever you wanted, so basically you were never forced to do anything to develop your character and could do it however you wanted.
I also hate to grind and will pretty much never do it, unless I start at the launch and there is nooby PVP and I want to stay ahead of other people... otherwise I just look for ways around it because there is always another launch on the horizon...
Its 2016 and people still thinking that levels = the only form of progression?
The OP doesn't only want levels.. he wants instant travel. I guess I can imagine a game having all of that but now we have indie developers and frankly would rather they dangle carrots because that is the only way to get people to play their game and my enjoyment mostly comes from playing with other people.
He even complained about Guild Wars 2.. give me a break.. MMOexposed indeed, yeah we want you to play out the content, of course.. accept it already.
Yes, MMO's need solo capable activities. I find it baffling that the thinking is that those need to be a major focus or worse, the trend towards solo-only development.
I disagree completely.. multiplayer games should encourage you to be in a group and they have already provided too much solo-content by having trails you have to follow to catch up to your friends.... ew
So being an RPG means you have to mindlessly grind levels, gear and your gaming soul? I can see why we got soulless themeparks. Players will put up with any garbage gameplay for a reward.
I think some of you have it backwards. If you're goal is to grind out single player content why play a MMORPG? Regular RPGS work and play better.
Social interaction and the virtual world is why I play MMORPG. Character development is there but I don't see a point of it being the whole game and it doesn't have to be vast.
I don't play the game for the grind, but most people do need that carrot to chase... I've seen it before dozens of times... I play MMORPGs over simple RPGs because I want to play with other people, meaning I need there to be a grind (of many sorts) to keep them playing with me, otherwise they quit. It doesn't have to be the next level you are chasing but it has to be something.
The thing about leveling (or gaining power through another method as some games have) can be fun if you do it right but almost all MMOs from the last 10 years just use them as a long and uninspired tutorial. There is zero challenge and there is really no point running dungeons or trying to get good gear before you hit max level anymore.
I'll agree with you there.. one thing I loved about the original Darkfall was how hard it was to loot my first thing and kill my first monster... later the game was dumbed down but those who started at the first launch know what I am talking about!!
This is MMORPG.com... why you talking about MOBAs? Its a good suggestion for the OP to try... maybe then he will stop exposing the MMOs... lol
When it comes down to it OP, I like to PVP and find ways to avoid grind by playing games when they launch or other ways.. you don't have to be stuck with a grind, there are plenty of options out there.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
This is MMORPG.com... why you talking about MOBAs?
If you read past the first two words of my post and note the post I was replying to you might have more insight into that. Moba is not a four letter word you know- no reason to be scared of it.
What turns me off is when I reach level 5 before I do anything, go looking for a mob to kill only to find there are 300 of them and they respawn every 5 seconds, required quests and pretty much anything since WoW. When I first went after a boss in WoW and all I had to do was wait 10 seconds and it spawned I actually cringed.
I love a long leveling grind. But I hate a max level gear grind.
Every game where you level fast when I hit max I quit. There is nothing else for me to do that I want to do.
I beyond loved games where you spend days sometimes weeks just to gain one level. And you get to spend so much time with other people, working with them, talking with them, etc. I just cannot find any games like this today.
I love a long leveling grind. But I hate a max level gear grind.
Every game where you level fast when I hit max I quit. There is nothing else for me to do that I want to do.
I beyond loved games where you spend days sometimes weeks just to gain one level. And you get to spend so much time with other people, working with them, talking with them, etc. I just cannot find any games like this today.
Isn't Black desert somewhat like what you describe?
What turns me off is when I reach level 5 before I do anything, go looking for a mob to kill only to find there are 300 of them and they respawn every 5 seconds, required quests and pretty much anything since WoW. When I first went after a boss in WoW and all I had to do was wait 10 seconds and it spawned I actually cringed.
Maybe you want to play some kind of game online. Maybe you believe what you want is an RPG of some sort. But what if you are wrong and really want something similar to an RPG but can't find what you are looking for?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
What turns me off is when I reach level 5 before I do anything, go looking for a mob to kill only to find there are 300 of them and they respawn every 5 seconds, required quests and pretty much anything since WoW. When I first went after a boss in WoW and all I had to do was wait 10 seconds and it spawned I actually cringed.
Maybe you want to play some kind of game online. Maybe you believe what you want is an RPG of some sort. But what if you are wrong and really want something similar to an RPG but can't find what you are looking for?
To me the problem with horizontal progression is when there is not enough vertical progression possible. I need a ton of ways to get sidetracked while developing my character, can't just chase XP all the time.
When it comes to "Level Grind" in new released MMOs, can we finally admit that this turns off most players in New MMOs?
The opposite. Ever since games started a speed to cap approach the retention in games has been terrible across the board. The quality has gone down too of course so it could be correlation not causation, but I see zero evidence that allowing people to cap with little effort has been good for the genre at all.
As a player of mmorpg such as WOW, DDO, LOTRO even runescape i feel like there should be a way of quick leveling such as DDO where the dungeons were designed to either take it slow and enjoy the story or "Zerg" your way through and level as quickly as possible to experience the character at end game. by doing this it gives you the option to create several characters that are not all grinned on .
When it comes to "Level Grind" in new released MMOs, can we finally admit that this turns off most players in New MMOs?
Sorry, no.
Leveling and world exploration are the parts of the game I enjoy the most.
Heck, I'll spend months at a time level locked until I've completed all content at a given level before moving on. Hitting max level and running out of new content is the last thing I want to happen.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
I have mixed feelings, but generally its not a good idea to pvp at lvl 1 unless your a sadomasacist and Play Eve Online LOL.
***Double Plunger salute to the Undertaker! He will be missed in the WWE!***
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care. Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
Comments
How about MEANINGFUL PROGRESSION. Players want to see they are advancing in a game. How do you show it without levels? I played TSW and hated the non-level progression.
Single player RPGs don't have to support the massive server infrastructure nor operational staff that an MMO does. It stands to reason (or should) that their devs can devote more resources to making outstanding quests and art. They have more experimental freedom.
Yes, MMO's need solo capable activities. I find it baffling that the thinking is that those need to be a major focus or worse, the trend towards solo-only development.
It is your reaction to grinding that makes it bad. Reframe your reaction.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I think some of you have it backwards. If you're goal is to grind out single player content why play a MMORPG? Regular RPGS work and play better.
Social interaction and the virtual world is why I play MMORPG. Character development is there but I don't see a point of it being the whole game and it doesn't have to be vast.
The problem is not grind, the problem is games that are not mmorpgs attract people who really don't enjoy mmorpgs. Some make xp grind, some make gear grind, some make point grind, daily mission grinds - And the simpler this grind is, the more boring it will feel.. grind is supposed to empower the devoted player and this is the a core mmorpg mechanic.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
In EQ and for that matter even vanilla Wow leveling could be tough and you spent enough time on each level so you bothered to get good gear and spend time to explore the zones and questlines there. Now you just skip past things and I think that is the wrong way to go.
The start thing I would do is to cut down the number of levels (20-40 should be about right) and cut down the leveling time so you at least max out the same speed as a modern game with 80+ levels or somewhat slower. Also, make it at least hard to level if you have crappy gear to encourage players to run dungeons and other stuff where you get good gear.
As a bonus you get it easier to find people closer to your level. And I know at least 2 games who done well with few levels: DDO & Guildwars so the idea works. I don't know why MMO devs think MMOs today should have 100 or more levels, it doesn't make the game more fun, it just means that leveling stopped meaning something, in M59 or EQ when someone wrote "ding" in the chat it meant something (*god Im old*).
You could of course also skip levels altogether and replace it with a bit less breaking slow progression instead, maybe just using EQs AA but skip the levels or something closer to GW2s mastery points. MMOs should have more progression then just gear but it can be far more subtile progression which do work well particularly in PvP.
It is a grind when you aren't having fun and get bored and while it is easier to have fun in good company at least I can be bored with others around as well.
Broken-unbalanced mechanics-unbalanced classes were the major reason for the failure of L2C EU, the secondary reasons were: Russian RMT and the fact that western players can't deal with playing support classes such as PP anymore.
It wasn't the grind the reason L2C EU failed.
I would say the appeal of MOBA is that it strips out all the boring grind while still offering a sense of progression, while the format of most MOBA allows for considerable strategy, team work, and individual skill.
However, MOBA don't offer persistent characters and worlds. A pure RvR based mmo that eliminates needless grind and requires progression through pvp is still waiting to be made imo (although WAR was pretty close to the mark).
Guild Wars did stuff like that and it worked, but from the OPs perspective even that was a grind because not only does he want no progression, he also wants instant travel... no locked content, etc.
I've seen people do this in every launch that I have played (and that is a lot).. people quit when they reach the endgame, so how much faster would they quit without any grind?
What from I read from your post, I think you really would have liked Darkfall Unholy War's leveling.. everything you did gave you experience and you could distribute it wherever you wanted, so basically you were never forced to do anything to develop your character and could do it however you wanted.
I also hate to grind and will pretty much never do it, unless I start at the launch and there is nooby PVP and I want to stay ahead of other people... otherwise I just look for ways around it because there is always another launch on the horizon...
The OP doesn't only want levels.. he wants instant travel. I guess I can imagine a game having all of that but now we have indie developers and frankly would rather they dangle carrots because that is the only way to get people to play their game and my enjoyment mostly comes from playing with other people.
He even complained about Guild Wars 2.. give me a break.. MMOexposed indeed, yeah we want you to play out the content, of course.. accept it already. I disagree completely.. multiplayer games should encourage you to be in a group and they have already provided too much solo-content by having trails you have to follow to catch up to your friends.... ew
I don't play the game for the grind, but most people do need that carrot to chase... I've seen it before dozens of times... I play MMORPGs over simple RPGs because I want to play with other people, meaning I need there to be a grind (of many sorts) to keep them playing with me, otherwise they quit. It doesn't have to be the next level you are chasing but it has to be something.
I'll agree with you there.. one thing I loved about the original Darkfall was how hard it was to loot my first thing and kill my first monster... later the game was dumbed down but those who started at the first launch know what I am talking about!!
This is MMORPG.com... why you talking about MOBAs? Its a good suggestion for the OP to try... maybe then he will stop exposing the MMOs... lol
When it comes down to it OP, I like to PVP and find ways to avoid grind by playing games when they launch or other ways.. you don't have to be stuck with a grind, there are plenty of options out there.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
If you read past the first two words of my post and note the post I was replying to you might have more insight into that. Moba is not a four letter word you know- no reason to be scared of it.
Every game where you level fast when I hit max I quit. There is nothing else for me to do that I want to do.
I beyond loved games where you spend days sometimes weeks just to gain one level. And you get to spend so much time with other people, working with them, talking with them, etc. I just cannot find any games like this today.
Maybe you want to play some kind of game online. Maybe you believe what you want is an RPG of some sort. But what if you are wrong and really want something similar to an RPG but can't find what you are looking for?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I need a ton of ways to get sidetracked while developing my character, can't just chase XP all the time.
One of the appeals of leveling (or gaining skill points) is that your character actually grows, permanently. Gear is a temporary thing.
Sorry, no.
Leveling and world exploration are the parts of the game I enjoy the most.
Heck, I'll spend months at a time level locked until I've completed all content at a given level before moving on. Hitting max level and running out of new content is the last thing I want to happen.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
***Double Plunger salute to the Undertaker! He will be missed in the WWE!***
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes