PVE wise I would say no, PVP focussed MMOs however are a different beast and can be VERY challenging. Unfortunately for the latter I have too little time (and patience in all honesty) to play them so I dabble in the occasional MOBA match.
PVE content requires knowledge and time investment, not pure skill. When they get combat to Souls/Nioh level, then yes, then it gets challenging. Although I do acknowledge that challenging means different things to different people.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
PVE wise I would say no, PVP focussed MMOs however are a different beast and can be VERY challenging. Unfortunately for the latter I have too little time (and patience in all honesty) to play them so I dabble in the occasional MOBA match.
PVE content requires knowledge and time investment, not pure skill. When they get combat to Souls/Nioh level, then yes, then it gets challenging. Although I do acknowledge that challenging means different things to different people.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
PVE no? So are you talking about reaching level cap or clearing hard mode raid? If you are talking just hitting level cap than yes youre right but if it's about clearing hard modes in any mmorpg it's usually 10% of the games population that gets those done. That to me is challenging. edit: if you get in voice chat with a static and go over strat and still takes you a month or longer to clear said content than that is challenging.
I have been challenged a lot by MMORPG's in the past.
I have been challenged by :
- mindnumblingly boring combat. - mindnumblingly repetitive character progression grind. - insane goldsinks. - accepting that most new content enters through cash shop. - my favourite class being nerfed in a way that they managed to suck out all fun of that class. - game killing bugs. - multiple deaths by lag.
I never was able to beat those challenges. I know, I must sound entitled to you.
Did you stumble in here from singleplayerconsolegames.com forums?
Lol no. I played a lot of MMORPG's, but never for their gameplay challenge. But for a virtual world and a large community.
Combat (pve and pvp) was in most mmo's that I played, kind of a shallow version of what already existed in singleplayer rpg's (pve) and small scale pvp games (first shooters, later on any lobby based pvp game).
Anyway, I never played a MMORPG solely for combat. And even less so for PVP. Even now with the action based combat in some MMO's it often is still half assed. Kind of twitch, kind of cooldown.
Imo the challenge in MMORPG's is usually in grind or meta game obscurity (no stats/abilities fully explained in numbers) until some guides pop up. The people who made those class and encounter guides for you already beat most of the challenges for you
The actual gameplay was fairly simplistic, it was always more about putting more time into the game but the challenging content was few and far between. The trouble was always more about finding competent players to surround yourself with instead of being a good enough player to tackle the content.
That's not to say that there aren't challenging elements in mmorpg but you have to dig deeper to find it. Its not a twitch game where its right up in your face stomping you down from the beginning. There are tough dungeons, raids and PvP elements that provide challenge in many games.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
PVE wise I would say no, PVP focussed MMOs however are a different beast and can be VERY challenging. Unfortunately for the latter I have too little time (and patience in all honesty) to play them so I dabble in the occasional MOBA match.
PVE content requires knowledge and time investment, not pure skill. When they get combat to Souls/Nioh level, then yes, then it gets challenging. Although I do acknowledge that challenging means different things to different people.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
PVE no? So are you talking about reaching level cap or clearing hard mode raid? If you are talking just hitting level cap than yes youre right but if it's about clearing hard modes in any mmorpg it's usually 10% of the games population that gets those done. That to me is challenging. edit: if you get in voice chat with a static and go over strat and still takes you a month or longer to clear said content than that is challenging.
All of it actually. But like I said, difficulty means different things to different people. I don't find hard mode raiding difficult, just very time consuming.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Challenge is a very subjective word. People like to speak as if its objective. This or that isnt challenging. Maybe what you find easy others may find difficult. Isnt this common sense?
TBF most topics are completely subjective on forums. These forums would be all but deserted if it weren't for subjectivity.
Only challenging group content I've come across is PvP and Raiding. All PvE leveling content from my first foray into EQ till now has been a snooze fest.
You had to socialise in the older MMO's, you'd be bored rigid if you didn't.
[...] As for challenging content, it doesn't exist. All content that appears difficult only involves figuring out the pattern or trick and then it's smooth sailing from there.
That was true in the early days as well as today.
Disagree absolutely. Of course it is true that in many MMORPGs the developers create the need to grind in order to feign the feeling of challenge, but that does not mean there cannot be challenging scenarios in an MMO.
If you are in a group of five and want to level quickly, you will have to determine a specific strategy about which the game has not given you instructions on whether the chosen area is even suitable for you and your friends. All the while the random spawning in the area makes it impossible to predetermine how many enemies of what type your tank is going to pull, then your group has to deal with what comes up, every time. Figuring that out is not a rotation to come up with once. It is a constant challenge to compare the own strategy with the effect it had on the combat.
Every MMO that allows you to go into high level areas and be properly rewarded for the risk is a good example for this. My favourite one being Dark Swords, though the Massive part of that title is definitely a thing of the past. Another always challenging way of levelling is experience gained from victory over another player/group of players. Camelot Unchained as a PVP-only game will probably come up with a lot of quests like that, involving sieging among low-level players, which is a very fun experience, due to the coordination of everyone despite their limited skill-pools.
Heres the thing: THeyre as challenging as you want them to be.....Lets take EQ for example....Most of the mobs at your level were extremely difficult to kill solo, at least in classic EQ, but if you went and fought light blue mobs the game was pretty easy......Most players take the path of least resistance in MMOs and therefore think its easy.
Yep it was a huge challenge to become a Jedi in Original SWg, and they had permadeath and you could be hunted by players. I would say mortal online is a challenge too, it has so many bugs, and evil players with massive retard egos that it is a serious challenge to stick with the game and enjoy it.
Swg EMU or NGE to run and maintain a city is a challenge. Ryzom is a challenge to figure out how to make skills and find resources, and than compete in the political battles it has. Heroes of the storm is a challenge to ignore all the trolls and play the game, that has some challenging team work. Black Desert Online is a challenge to ignore all the sexy characters and actually play the game.
Well, before Prima Guides and Google, yes. Now that everything is posted on the internet, no. If you want a challenging MMO, then play one without asking anyone for help.
Are you serious? How bad of a player does someone have to be to use those things to play an MMO?
Doing anything in the world is time consuming even being here on this very forum and writing the above. Yes, there were and are challenging mmorpg like FFXI and it's related to time cause back then even WoW was challenging vs WoW now.
The time consuming part was gearing up.
Once geared up, there was no challenge in EQ1 raids, nor FFXI nor WoW.
Just planning and execution, the challenge was non existant once the encounter was figured out - it became routine and was on farm status.
Chess is more challenging than all MMORPGs put together for example - because you could devote your entire life to it and its still always challenging.
People simply mistake time investment for challenge.
There are no challenging MMORPGs, people just like to think that because they spend 1000s of hours doing repetitive bullshit that its a challenge.
Comparing mmorpg with chess? I play chess pretty good but consider it the most boring game ever, I enjoy paying sub to a mmorpg than playing chess for free.
When it comes to challenge, developers are between a rock and a hard place. They have to provide something of a challenge for those of us who know MMO tactics and strageejery inside and out, who know DOT's and Buffs/Debuffs, casting chains, all those traditional MMO staples, while at the same time bringing people in who know little more than, "If I stand next to this guy, I'll start hitting him. These buttons make me do more damage until this bar runs out."
In the beginning, we were all there starting at roughly the same level of expertise, which was pretty much none. We were new, but so were the developers. Having mobs that you could roll over, then having another at the same level that could mow down players left and right was a common but unintended consequence.
IMO, the best way that has been used to deal with this, even to this day, was CoX's difficulty system. The game was here over 10 years ago, has been gone for 4 or 5, and I still haven't seen anything better, since.
Doing anything in the world is time consuming even being here on this very forum and writing the above. Yes, there were and are challenging mmorpg like FFXI and it's related to time cause back then even WoW was challenging vs WoW now.
The time consuming part was gearing up.
Once geared up, there was no challenge in EQ1 raids, nor FFXI nor WoW.
Just planning and execution, the challenge was non existant once the encounter was figured out - it became routine and was on farm status.
Chess is more challenging than all MMORPGs put together for example - because you could devote your entire life to it and its still always challenging.
People simply mistake time investment for challenge.
There are no challenging MMORPGs, people just like to think that because they spend 1000s of hours doing repetitive bullshit that its a challenge.
Comparing mmorpg with chess? I play chess pretty good but consider it the most boring game ever, I enjoy paying sub to a mmorpg than playing chess for free.
You may enjoy video games more, but it doesn't make MMORPG's any more challenging. People tend to confound time expenditure with difficulty. It wasn't hard to level up in FFXI. It was time consuming. It challenged my patience, not my skill as a player. Beating Battle Toads challenged my skill as a player. Some MMO's do challenge player skills, notably, games like B&S and other action-oriented MMO's.
MMORPG's are artificially difficult. They don't require any special skills or practice. They require spending time doing the same activities over and over. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that, as I am not really looking for a grand challenge when playing MMORPG's.
Doing anything in the world is time consuming even being here on this very forum and writing the above. Yes, there were and are challenging mmorpg like FFXI and it's related to time cause back then even WoW was challenging vs WoW now.
The time consuming part was gearing up.
Once geared up, there was no challenge in EQ1 raids, nor FFXI nor WoW.
Just planning and execution, the challenge was non existant once the encounter was figured out - it became routine and was on farm status.
Chess is more challenging than all MMORPGs put together for example - because you could devote your entire life to it and its still always challenging.
People simply mistake time investment for challenge.
There are no challenging MMORPGs, people just like to think that because they spend 1000s of hours doing repetitive bullshit that its a challenge.
There really was no "gearing up" in FFXI. For the most part, everyone in the same level range and class had the same armor. The "challenge" in that game was learning how to play your class to perfection, and coordinating skills and attacks with other people. Getting those kill chains significantly shortened the time it took to level and you really had to know what you were doing to get those. Death meant loss of exp which sometimes resulted in losing a level. So yeah, I'd say it was pretty challenging
If you really want to test your hand-eye coordination and reaction time, good ol' Duck Hunt on the NES will do just fine.
A MMO you play together. I believe part of the challenge is working together with other players. Sure fights can be mastered and repeated till eternity. However the human factor always is uncertain. Just ask why people hate PUGs. PUGs are the true challenge!
If you really want to test your hand-eye coordination and reaction time, good ol' Duck Hunt on the NES will do just fine.
A MMO you play together. I believe part of the challenge is working together with other players. Sure fights can be mastered and repeated till eternity. However the human factor always is uncertain. Just ask why people hate PUGs. PUGs are the true challenge!
PUGs aren't the issue, it's the players you wind up with that determine quality of the PUG.
Too many people playing MMOs these days that are basically three hairs away from being baboons.
How challenging a game is depends on the resourcefulness and creativity of the player. Playing your own game within the game can be very challenging and a lot of fun.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Comments
PVE content requires knowledge and time investment, not pure skill. When they get combat to Souls/Nioh level, then yes, then it gets challenging. Although I do acknowledge that challenging means different things to different people.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
PVE no? So are you talking about reaching level cap or clearing hard mode raid? If you are talking just hitting level cap than yes youre right but if it's about clearing hard modes in any mmorpg it's usually 10% of the games population that gets those done. That to me is challenging.
edit: if you get in voice chat with a static and go over strat and still takes you a month or longer to clear said content than that is challenging.
Lol no. I played a lot of MMORPG's, but never for their gameplay challenge. But for a virtual world and a large community.
Combat (pve and pvp) was in most mmo's that I played, kind of a shallow version of what already existed in singleplayer rpg's (pve) and small scale pvp games (first shooters, later on any lobby based pvp game).
Anyway, I never played a MMORPG solely for combat. And even less so for PVP. Even now with the action based combat in some MMO's it often is still half assed. Kind of twitch, kind of cooldown.
Imo the challenge in MMORPG's is usually in grind or meta game obscurity (no stats/abilities fully explained in numbers) until some guides pop up. The people who made those class and encounter guides for you already beat most of the challenges for you
That's not to say that there aren't challenging elements in mmorpg but you have to dig deeper to find it. Its not a twitch game where its right up in your face stomping you down from the beginning. There are tough dungeons, raids and PvP elements that provide challenge in many games.
All of it actually. But like I said, difficulty means different things to different people. I don't find hard mode raiding difficult, just very time consuming.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Wurm Online and early EQ.
TBF most topics are completely subjective on forums. These forums would be all but deserted if it weren't for subjectivity.
Only challenging group content I've come across is PvP and Raiding. All PvE leveling content from my first foray into EQ till now has been a snooze fest.
You had to socialise in the older MMO's, you'd be bored rigid if you didn't.
Of course it is true that in many MMORPGs the developers create the need to grind in order to feign the feeling of challenge, but that does not mean there cannot be challenging scenarios in an MMO.
If you are in a group of five and want to level quickly, you will have to determine a specific strategy about which the game has not given you instructions on whether the chosen area is even suitable for you and your friends. All the while the random spawning in the area makes it impossible to predetermine how many enemies of what type your tank is going to pull, then your group has to deal with what comes up, every time. Figuring that out is not a rotation to come up with once. It is a constant challenge to compare the own strategy with the effect it had on the combat.
Every MMO that allows you to go into high level areas and be properly rewarded for the risk is a good example for this. My favourite one being Dark Swords, though the Massive part of that title is definitely a thing of the past.
Another always challenging way of levelling is experience gained from victory over another player/group of players.
Camelot Unchained as a PVP-only game will probably come up with a lot of quests like that, involving sieging among low-level players, which is a very fun experience, due to the coordination of everyone despite their limited skill-pools.
I mean, I played games at that time, but I know of no such standard. Please enlighten me.
Swg EMU or NGE to run and maintain a city is a challenge. Ryzom is a challenge to figure out how to make skills and find resources, and than compete in the political battles it has. Heroes of the storm is a challenge to ignore all the trolls and play the game, that has some challenging team work. Black Desert Online is a challenge to ignore all the sexy characters and actually play the game.
They are either a challenge of skill in tactics and coordination or a challenge of ones patience and perseverance.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Are you serious? How bad of a player does someone have to be to use those things to play an MMO?
~~ postlarval ~~
Comparing mmorpg with chess? I play chess pretty good but consider it the most boring game ever, I enjoy paying sub to a mmorpg than playing chess for free.
In the beginning, we were all there starting at roughly the same level of expertise, which was pretty much none. We were new, but so were the developers. Having mobs that you could roll over, then having another at the same level that could mow down players left and right was a common but unintended consequence.
IMO, the best way that has been used to deal with this, even to this day, was CoX's difficulty system. The game was here over 10 years ago, has been gone for 4 or 5, and I still haven't seen anything better, since.
You may enjoy video games more, but it doesn't make MMORPG's any more challenging. People tend to confound time expenditure with difficulty. It wasn't hard to level up in FFXI. It was time consuming. It challenged my patience, not my skill as a player. Beating Battle Toads challenged my skill as a player. Some MMO's do challenge player skills, notably, games like B&S and other action-oriented MMO's.
MMORPG's are artificially difficult. They don't require any special skills or practice. They require spending time doing the same activities over and over. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that, as I am not really looking for a grand challenge when playing MMORPG's.
There really was no "gearing up" in FFXI. For the most part, everyone in the same level range and class had the same armor.
The "challenge" in that game was learning how to play your class to perfection, and coordinating skills and attacks with other people. Getting those kill chains significantly shortened the time it took to level and you really had to know what you were doing to get those.
Death meant loss of exp which sometimes resulted in losing a level.
So yeah, I'd say it was pretty challenging
A MMO you play together. I believe part of the challenge is working together with other players. Sure fights can be mastered and repeated till eternity. However the human factor always is uncertain. Just ask why people hate PUGs. PUGs are the true challenge!
PUGs aren't the issue, it's the players you wind up with that determine quality of the PUG.
Too many people playing MMOs these days that are basically three hairs away from being baboons.
~~ postlarval ~~
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee