We can say PvP is played out and dead when even a single modern MMO manages to do it properly. The first step to doing PvP properly is realizing that nobody wants to lose over and over and over to people who can two shot you because they've been playing for 5 years and you just started.
Every PvP MMO eventually turns into a few good old boys stomping everyone who comes into the game and the few total masochists willing to put up with years of their abuse to rise to their status prodded along by the occasional victories they can score against unwary newcomers before they are like "**** this ****" and deinstall the game within 24 hours. Maybe a week for some of the tougher ones.
PvP games must have a low barrier to entry in terms of player stats and a simple to learn and engaging but difficult to master combat system. In having a low barrier to entry that should refocus long term development from character development to territorial control and building up crafting skills / the economic health of your guild/city/nation. So far we have yet to see a game like that.
Until we have a game like that we need another PvP MMO.
Just not another Darkfall/Mortal/EVE etc. What the MMO market truly needs all around is less clones of existing models and more fresh ideas. That goes for PvP and PvE games. I can't remember the last PvE focused MMO that wasn't a WoW clone.
The key is doing what every single other PVP genre does which is getting rid of vertical progression where time played = more stats/skill cap.
The vast majority of MMOs force PvPers to grind out levels and gear before they can even begin playing at the standard competitive level which immediately shrinks the player base and makes it virtually impossible for fresh blood to come into the game later on.
For whatever reason so many games cater to players who like to no-life farm for 1000000 hours then 1 shot lowbies. This is completely unsustainable game design and of course feeds right into disgusting P2W monetization schemes.
If you went to a RTS or Street Fighter player and said you can buy a costume that gives +stats or get an RNG crafting system to +5 your moves/units you would be laughed out of the room. Not so in MMOs.
The sad truth is that most PVE players don't actually want a challenge. They just want to zone out, 'relax' and farm while every once in a while something rare drops. No different then people who get addicted to slot machines in casinos.
That is the sad darn truth. PvP in MMOs is having a fun fight every few dozens hours of time invested in the game and the rest of the time either being stat stomped by someone or stat stomping someone else.
Most MMO PvPers are living off the high of that one time they had a good fight. Pushing through dozens of hours of drudgery just to get another one.
Contrast that with games like Halo, SMITE, and StarCraft. Fun fights are the norm instead of the exception because people are on a fairly even level.
Open World MMOs will never have a totally level playing field. There is always going to be 15 v 2s and that's just part of those games. Honestly the diplomacy is part of what makes them engaging. Part of the reason you would opt for an MMO over a MOBA. But you don't have to aggravate that by making stat disparities so high that you can potentially have two players face off where the stronger one can kill the other one in less than half a dozen hits while it would take dozens of hits for the weaker one to kill the stronger one.
I don't care what you have done in game you never "deserve" that. You've never "earned" that. You can earn the right to beat people really hard through long hours of practice and detailed knowledge of the game. Not killing 1,000,000,000,000 NPCs by running through the same old rotations over and over and over.
The problem with PvP mmos isn't necessarily the PvP, it's the format that neglects everything else. My favorite PvP mmos were the one's with stuff to do besides PvP. For an mmo to remain interesting, there has to be something worth fighting over, especially things that advance your character. That's why I'm actually looking forward to PvP in Pantheon. Really looking forward to fighting over dungeons and raid bosses once again in a completely open world title.
The reason I say the golden age of mmo pvp hasn't arrived yet is down to mechanics and numbers. In almost all other genres of games, pvp is the crown jewel. Shooters, RTS, mobas, fighters etc....for nearly all other genres, if you can create a good pvp mode then the longevity and popularity of the game soars. So far, that has not happened in the MMO world, which indicates that nobody has gotten it right yet.
If you want to make MMORPG PvP as popular as the other genre's is to get rid of gear/level dependencies.
Make it so players can jump in and player skill be the over riding factor.
PvP isn't even an MMORPG's strength, it should never be it's primary focus IMO. Other genres do it better, MMOFPS for example.
What MMORPG's have over others is it's Co-operative PvE.
The reason I say the golden age of mmo pvp hasn't arrived yet is down to mechanics and numbers. In almost all other genres of games, pvp is the crown jewel. Shooters, RTS, mobas, fighters etc....for nearly all other genres, if you can create a good pvp mode then the longevity and popularity of the game soars. So far, that has not happened in the MMO world, which indicates that nobody has gotten it right yet.
If you want to make MMORPG PvP as popular as the other genre's is to get rid of gear/level dependencies.
Make it so players can jump in and player skill be the over riding factor.
PvP isn't even an MMORPG's strength, it should never be it's primary focus IMO. Other genres do it better, MMOFPS for example.
What MMORPG's have over others is it's Co-operative PvE.
PvP isn't the strength of MMORPGs because they don't implement it well. It's usually just added as an afterthought in a half-hearted attempt to get some more customers.
PvP isn't the strength of MMORPGs because they don't implement it well. It usually just added as an afterthought in a half-hearted attempt to get some more customers.
But how do you implement it in the right way for mass appeal?
The whole point of MMORPG PvP is to be in unfair, unbalanced fights, they're more like participating in wars where anything goes than a sport with rules.
Which I am a fan of tbh. I've pledged to Camelot Unchained but I still think PvE is the main strength of a MMORPG and that's what the majority of players are interested in.
The kind of PvP mmorpg that I am looking for doesnt exist. I want elements from DAoC, Shadowbane, Eve, and survival games. Id love to be able to make a druid that lives in some forest. I would try and cobble together some hut while hunting to survive. Try and tame some animal to make life a bit easier. Id then explore the environment while trying to make makeshift weapons and armor out of the things I can gather and hunt.
This is my entire issue with mmorpg. I NEVER feel like I am apart of the world. In my opinion mmorpg try and make you feel like the super hero conquering the world. How about you let me figure out how to be a humble druid that struggles to survive before I am killing 20 boars for their livers? Questing just ruins the immersion for me because quest givers are about as subtle as an evangelical priest. LOOK AT ME!!!! I NEEEDS HELP!!!. It would be nice to wander into some battle between a caravan and goblins, you decide to help either the goblins or the caravan and maybe you get rewarded or attacked for it. Thats the entire fucking quest. You stumble on some shit and pick a side or walk off.
Its sad that I feel more immersed in a game like the forest than any mmorpg that I have ever played.
Yes. We do not really choose or play our roles in so-called MMORPGs. The vast majority of the time, we just follow the dotted line, obey orders, and are not really different from a soldier or mercenary in any meaningful way. There's no glory in being a hero if everyone else is a hero.
PvP isn't the strength of MMORPGs because they don't implement it well. It usually just added as an afterthought in a half-hearted attempt to get some more customers.
But how do you implement it in the right way for mass appeal?
The whole point of MMORPG PvP is to be in unfair, unbalanced fights, they're more like participating in wars where anything goes than a sport with rules.
Which I am a fan of tbh. I've pledged to Camelot Unchained but I still think PvE is the main strength of a MMORPG and that's what the majority of players are interested in.
I cant speak for everyone but for me a loss isnt just a loss. I care about how I lost. If five of us attacked one player and lost simply due to his gear and level with no player skill required, I am not a happy camper. In my opinion 5 people should be able to fight any one player. I am of the mindset that gear and level shouldnt matter, but skill trumps all. If I enter 1v1 combat and someone strolls along and helps the other guy and I lose, shrug, thats life. I expect to lose in a 1v2 scenario.
The way you win and lose matters. Back when I used to play WoW, you could literally have 3 level 30s attacking an afk max level geared out player for 10 minutes and not kill him. PvP just doesnt prosper in games like this...
If we want a good MMORPG PvP game, we need to get rid of level and gear progression. It's not realistic anyway. Stats should only represent skills and abilities, and they should have limits to how much they can be trained. No one should be able to be a god in a PvP game. Unless everyone is a god in the game from the beginning. No one should be able to master every skill or ability. Geniuses are rare in real life.
Death penalties are good. Permanent death can work. One hit kills can work. If progression is tied to the advancement of one's family/community/tribe/clan/nation and the perpetuation of a family line, for example. Fable II allows you to have children. Why can't we have children and play them after our original character dies?
Wealth, property, possessions, and titles can be passed down in the same family line, just like in the real world.
PvP isn't the strength of MMORPGs because they don't implement it well. It usually just added as an afterthought in a half-hearted attempt to get some more customers.
But how do you implement it in the right way for mass appeal?
The whole point of MMORPG PvP is to be in unfair, unbalanced fights, they're more like participating in wars where anything goes than a sport with rules.
Which I am a fan of tbh. I've pledged to Camelot Unchained but I still think PvE is the main strength of a MMORPG and that's what the majority of players are interested in.
I cant speak for everyone but for me a loss isnt just a loss. I care about how I lost. If five of us attacked one player and lost simply due to his gear and level with no player skill required, I am not a happy camper. In my opinion 5 people should be able to fight any one player. I am of the mindset that gear and level shouldnt matter, but skill trumps all. If I enter 1v1 combat and someone strolls along and helps the other guy and I lose, shrug, thats life. I expect to lose in a 1v2 scenario.
The way you win and lose matters. Back when I used to play WoW, you could literally have 3 level 30s attacking an afk max level geared out player for 10 minutes and not kill him. PvP just doesnt prosper in games like this...
But why look for that style of PvP in an MMORPG?
Why change fundamentally what makes PvP MMORPG different from other genres (a lot of the time being in situations where no matter how skilled you are you won't win unless the numbers are on your side.).
If you want fair, balanced small scale fights (1v1, 2v2, 4v4, 8v8, 16 v 16 etc) where player skill trumps all, why not play an FPS instead of trying to turn MMORPG's into them?
PvP isn't the strength of MMORPGs because they don't implement it well. It usually just added as an afterthought in a half-hearted attempt to get some more customers.
But how do you implement it in the right way for mass appeal?
The whole point of MMORPG PvP is to be in unfair, unbalanced fights, they're more like participating in wars where anything goes than a sport with rules.
Which I am a fan of tbh. I've pledged to Camelot Unchained but I still think PvE is the main strength of a MMORPG and that's what the majority of players are interested in.
I cant speak for everyone but for me a loss isnt just a loss. I care about how I lost. If five of us attacked one player and lost simply due to his gear and level with no player skill required, I am not a happy camper. In my opinion 5 people should be able to fight any one player. I am of the mindset that gear and level shouldnt matter, but skill trumps all. If I enter 1v1 combat and someone strolls along and helps the other guy and I lose, shrug, thats life. I expect to lose in a 1v2 scenario.
The way you win and lose matters. Back when I used to play WoW, you could literally have 3 level 30s attacking an afk max level geared out player for 10 minutes and not kill him. PvP just doesnt prosper in games like this...
But why look for that style of PvP in an MMORPG?
Why change fundamentally what makes PvP MMORPG different from other genres (a lot of the time being in situations where no matter how skilled you are you won't win unless the numbers are on your side.).
If you want fair, balanced small scale fights (1v1, 2v2, 4v4, 8v8, 16 v 16 etc) where player skill trumps all, why not play an FPS instead of trying to turn MMORPG's into them?
Why do we want almost every so-called mmorpg to be a World of Warcraft clone or imitator with different bells and whistles?
If a game is actually made the way we want it, will all other so-called mmorpgs disappear? Probably not. Unless, of course, people come to realize that a true role-playing game makes all the other garbage look like child's play.
Role-playing existed before MMORPGs. Role-playing even existed before Dungeons & Dragons. You ever play cops and robbers as a kid? Cowboys and Indians? If you didn't, maybe your parents or your grandparents did.
Maybe we want to see what's it like to try to survive (and maybe even thrive) as long as possible in a persistent fantasy world where danger could lurk around every corner.
Also, if you knew Frodo and Samwise had a few hundred thousand hit points each, would Lord of the Rings be a very interesting story?
True PVP never belonged in MMORPGs. FPS and MOBAs are where it's at for that.
There are things you can do in PvP MMOs that can't be done anywhere that isn't at least semi massively multiplayer. Meaningful wars where you actually feel investment in the territory you are defending, where you actually have emotional investment in your cause etc.
FPSes and MOBAs are fun and can get your blood pumping but they can NEVER make you care as much as a well done PvP MMO can.
It's grinding and PvP that don't mix. Not PvP and MMOs.
Why mix any style of games? Maybe because there are people that would enjoy playing it? You keep going back to this fair and balanced argument as if I said that I only want that. I said that if I was engaged in a 1v2 and died, that I expect and accept that. I want a world and I expect combat to have variables just like a bar fight in real life would have variables. Maybe he has three friends in the room. Maybe he has no friends. What I said is that I do not like is 3 level 30s not being able to kill an afk level 60.
It is ridiculous to the point of being asinine. A world where there are gods roaming around that can crush me like an ant doesn't sound very fun to me.
Why mix any style of games? Maybe because there are people that would enjoy playing it? You keep going back to this fair and balanced argument as if I said that I only want that. I said that if I was engaged in a 1v2 and died, that I expect and accept that. I want a world and I expect combat to have variables just like a bar fight in real life would have variables. Maybe he has three friends in the room. Maybe he has no friends. What I said is that I do not like is 3 level 30s not being able to kill an afk level 60.
It is ridiculous to the point of being asinine. A world where there are gods roaming around that can crush me like an ant doesn't sound very fun to me.
MMORPG's PvP strength is in large numbers, not in small scale.
In an MMORPG where progression exists you are expected to be squashed by different role playing options in small scale situations.
An MMO's PvP strength lies in authentic encounters and your actions actually helping shape grander schemes and events. There are a lot of people who really love small scale PvP in MMOs when the participants are on a semi-even footing. '
The raid vs. raid generally is pretty boring for anyone who isn't leading the raid. The small group vs. small group fights is generally where you see the most interesting builds and tactics come into play. All of my favorite MMO PvP experiences involved less than 10 players per side.
Why alienate the largest plurality of players only to create balancing headaches and leave everyone unhappy as a result?
Your thoughts?
My thoughts: you PVE ppl that can't handle PVP will start infighting because someone fks up in a PVE oriented fight. And it ends with PVP on voip and ingame griefing.
That's also PVP.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
An MMO's PvP strength lies in authentic encounters and your actions actually helping shape grander schemes and events.
That's not exclusive to PvP.
To be clear I'm referring to actual unscripted events. Not being the 5000th person to kill the lich king who respawns again for the thousands that will come after you but actually taking part in a war that sees a dominant power in the game toppled for good or becoming that dominant power yourself.
Why mix any style of games? Maybe because there are people that would enjoy playing it? You keep going back to this fair and balanced argument as if I said that I only want that. I said that if I was engaged in a 1v2 and died, that I expect and accept that. I want a world and I expect combat to have variables just like a bar fight in real life would have variables. Maybe he has three friends in the room. Maybe he has no friends. What I said is that I do not like is 3 level 30s not being able to kill an afk level 60.
It is ridiculous to the point of being asinine. A world where there are gods roaming around that can crush me like an ant doesn't sound very fun to me.
MMORPG's PvP strength is in large numbers, not in small scale.
In an MMORPG where progression exists you are expected to be squashed by different role playing options in small scale situations.
There can be different types of progression. The idea that the majority of a person's power comes from the equipment he or she is wearing is basically outside of human experience. Outside of fantasy novels and movies as well. Levels and hit points also do not exist.
To be clear I'm referring to actual unscripted events. Not being the 5000th person to kill the lich king who respawns again for the thousands that will come after you but actually taking part in a war that sees a dominant power in the game toppled for good or becoming that dominant power yourself.
Never seen that happen outside PvP.
Outside MMORPG's, sure? I was discussing primarily MMORPG PvP, not all PvP.
MMORPGs PvP strength over other PvP games is large scale warfare and what comes with large scale warfare is unbalanced, unfair encounters.
Expect to be in situations you won't win otherwise it won't be authentic.
Comments
Every PvP MMO eventually turns into a few good old boys stomping everyone who comes into the game and the few total masochists willing to put up with years of their abuse to rise to their status prodded along by the occasional victories they can score against unwary newcomers before they are like "**** this ****" and deinstall the game within 24 hours. Maybe a week for some of the tougher ones.
PvP games must have a low barrier to entry in terms of player stats and a simple to learn and engaging but difficult to master combat system. In having a low barrier to entry that should refocus long term development from character development to territorial control and building up crafting skills / the economic health of your guild/city/nation. So far we have yet to see a game like that.
Until we have a game like that we need another PvP MMO.
Just not another Darkfall/Mortal/EVE etc. What the MMO market truly needs all around is less clones of existing models and more fresh ideas. That goes for PvP and PvE games. I can't remember the last PvE focused MMO that wasn't a WoW clone.
The key is doing what every single other PVP genre does which is getting rid of vertical progression where time played = more stats/skill cap.
The vast majority of MMOs force PvPers to grind out levels and gear before they can even begin playing at the standard competitive level which immediately shrinks the player base and makes it virtually impossible for fresh blood to come into the game later on.
For whatever reason so many games cater to players who like to no-life farm for 1000000 hours then 1 shot lowbies. This is completely unsustainable game design and of course feeds right into disgusting P2W monetization schemes.
If you went to a RTS or Street Fighter player and said you can buy a costume that gives +stats or get an RNG crafting system to +5 your moves/units you would be laughed out of the room. Not so in MMOs.
The sad truth is that most PVE players don't actually want a challenge. They just want to zone out, 'relax' and farm while every once in a while something rare drops. No different then people who get addicted to slot machines in casinos.
Most MMO PvPers are living off the high of that one time they had a good fight. Pushing through dozens of hours of drudgery just to get another one.
Contrast that with games like Halo, SMITE, and StarCraft. Fun fights are the norm instead of the exception because people are on a fairly even level.
Open World MMOs will never have a totally level playing field. There is always going to be 15 v 2s and that's just part of those games. Honestly the diplomacy is part of what makes them engaging. Part of the reason you would opt for an MMO over a MOBA. But you don't have to aggravate that by making stat disparities so high that you can potentially have two players face off where the stronger one can kill the other one in less than half a dozen hits while it would take dozens of hits for the weaker one to kill the stronger one.
I don't care what you have done in game you never "deserve" that. You've never "earned" that. You can earn the right to beat people really hard through long hours of practice and detailed knowledge of the game. Not killing 1,000,000,000,000 NPCs by running through the same old rotations over and over and over.
Make it so players can jump in and player skill be the over riding factor.
PvP isn't even an MMORPG's strength, it should never be it's primary focus IMO. Other genres do it better, MMOFPS for example.
What MMORPG's have over others is it's Co-operative PvE.
PvP isn't the strength of MMORPGs because they don't implement it well. It's usually just added as an afterthought in a half-hearted attempt to get some more customers.
But how do you implement it in the right way for mass appeal?
The whole point of MMORPG PvP is to be in unfair, unbalanced fights, they're more like participating in wars where anything goes than a sport with rules.
Which I am a fan of tbh. I've pledged to Camelot Unchained but I still think PvE is the main strength of a MMORPG and that's what the majority of players are interested in.
Yes. We do not really choose or play our roles in so-called MMORPGs. The vast majority of the time, we just follow the dotted line, obey orders, and are not really different from a soldier or mercenary in any meaningful way. There's no glory in being a hero if everyone else is a hero.
If we want a good MMORPG PvP game, we need to get rid of level and gear progression. It's not realistic anyway. Stats should only represent skills and abilities, and they should have limits to how much they can be trained. No one should be able to be a god in a PvP game. Unless everyone is a god in the game from the beginning. No one should be able to master every skill or ability. Geniuses are rare in real life.
Death penalties are good. Permanent death can work. One hit kills can work. If progression is tied to the advancement of one's family/community/tribe/clan/nation and the perpetuation of a family line, for example. Fable II allows you to have children. Why can't we have children and play them after our original character dies?
Wealth, property, possessions, and titles can be passed down in the same family line, just like in the real world.
But why look for that style of PvP in an MMORPG?
Why change fundamentally what makes PvP MMORPG different from other genres (a lot of the time being in situations where no matter how skilled you are you won't win unless the numbers are on your side.).
If you want fair, balanced small scale fights (1v1, 2v2, 4v4, 8v8, 16 v 16 etc) where player skill trumps all, why not play an FPS instead of trying to turn MMORPG's into them?
Why do we want almost every so-called mmorpg to be a World of Warcraft clone or imitator with different bells and whistles?
If a game is actually made the way we want it, will all other so-called mmorpgs disappear? Probably not. Unless, of course, people come to realize that a true role-playing game makes all the other garbage look like child's play.
Role-playing existed before MMORPGs. Role-playing even existed before Dungeons & Dragons. You ever play cops and robbers as a kid? Cowboys and Indians? If you didn't, maybe your parents or your grandparents did.
Maybe we want to see what's it like to try to survive (and maybe even thrive) as long as possible in a persistent fantasy world where danger could lurk around every corner.
Also, if you knew Frodo and Samwise had a few hundred thousand hit points each, would Lord of the Rings be a very interesting story?
There are things you can do in PvP MMOs that can't be done anywhere that isn't at least semi massively multiplayer. Meaningful wars where you actually feel investment in the territory you are defending, where you actually have emotional investment in your cause etc.
FPSes and MOBAs are fun and can get your blood pumping but they can NEVER make you care as much as a well done PvP MMO can.
It's grinding and PvP that don't mix. Not PvP and MMOs.
It is ridiculous to the point of being asinine. A world where there are gods roaming around that can crush me like an ant doesn't sound very fun to me.
MMORPG's PvP strength is in large numbers, not in small scale.
In an MMORPG where progression exists you are expected to be squashed by different role playing options in small scale situations.
The raid vs. raid generally is pretty boring for anyone who isn't leading the raid. The small group vs. small group fights is generally where you see the most interesting builds and tactics come into play. All of my favorite MMO PvP experiences involved less than 10 players per side.
My thoughts: you PVE ppl that can't handle PVP will start infighting because someone fks up in a PVE oriented fight.
And it ends with PVP on voip and ingame griefing.
That's also PVP.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
To be clear I'm referring to actual unscripted events. Not being the 5000th person to kill the lich king who respawns again for the thousands that will come after you but actually taking part in a war that sees a dominant power in the game toppled for good or becoming that dominant power yourself.
Never seen that happen outside PvP.
There can be different types of progression. The idea that the majority of a person's power comes from the equipment he or she is wearing is basically outside of human experience. Outside of fantasy novels and movies as well. Levels and hit points also do not exist.
MMORPGs PvP strength over other PvP games is large scale warfare and what comes with large scale warfare is unbalanced, unfair encounters.
Expect to be in situations you won't win otherwise it won't be authentic.
It's funny how the most interesting "people" I've met in any RPG are the NPCs.
I find most reason humans fight one another in the real world uninspired in comparison to scripted PvE NPCs.
But that's an entirely different topic of discussion.
Would RPG players be interested in a progression system where you character doesn't get stronger or more advanced in combat?