Do PvP players like combat or competition?

laxie · May 2017

It's something I've been thinking about recently.

PvP offers both high combat difficulty and competition with other players. Which one is it that draws players to enjoy PvP?

If it is the competition, would there be space for "PvP Crafting" games? Would those appeal to a similar crowd, perhaps making non-combat games more accessible to the hardcore players?

Slapshot1188 · May 2017

For me it's the thrill of danger... of not knowing what could be lurking around the next bend in the road.

laxie · May 2017

Nyctelios said:

"PvP Crafting games" like survival or battle royale? Yes. Of course.

I was thinking something along the lines of competitive crafting. Perhaps a group of people has to compete and craft the best item within a time limit.

It may be too niche of an idea though.

hatefulpeace · May 2017

laxie said:

It's something I've been thinking about recently.

PvP offers both high combat difficulty and competition with other players. Which one is it that draws players to enjoy PvP?

If it is the competition, would there be space for "PvP Crafting" games? Would those appeal to a similar crowd, perhaps making non-combat games more accessible to the hardcore players?

Nope, doesn't work. Ryzom has a PVP crafting game, meaning you have to spend lots of time and hard work to get good at crafting, to compete with the other masters at crafting, and 3 people play it. Most people don't like to craft, that is why all most all games have basically no crafting system. SWG has a pvp crafting system to, and no one plays that either.

Combat PVP is mostly mindless clicking for the majority of people. Haven't you ever played a MOBA? They literally just run around and click, not paying attention to much of anything. Your asking for a game that would require a huge attention span, and the majority of people have the attention span of dory the fish.

Jakdstripper · May 2017

There is an element of unpredictability in PvP thatiis simply impossible to replicate in pve. No one PvP fight is ever exactly the same. You can feel an intelligence (or lack of) behind the opponent you are fighting. Prevaling over that intelligence is much more rewarding than knowing you just beat an ai.
We are simply wired to enjoy interaction with other humans more than any ai, be it in competition or cooperation.

FlyByKnight · May 2017

Both.

Having to use your situational awareness during the most innocent of activities is fun. It provides a rush that you generally cannot get from PVE these days.

Being respected/feared by your peers for being a formidable opponent is also something you can't get from PVE.

With all that said I don't mind figuring out NPC patterns and mechanics in between all the above, but boy when you mix it all together it is pretty wild.

Also anybody who goes around saying Combat PVP is "mindless clicking" quite possibly is a dip sh!# that shouldn't be taken seriously... ever.

maskedweasel · May 2017

I like challenge that doesn't require hours of grinding to get there. It's one reason I like arenas more than world PvP or raids in most games. Usually in arenas you're put on the same footing as everyone else, so you don't have to worry about if you have the right gear, or if you'll be way outmatched.

It's a way to put yourself against a tougher enemy without the necessity of hours of gameplay to acquire gear or to be outmatched by several players which takes little skill to win. It also doesn't require you to find a bunch of competent players to do it either.

If there was a good challenging PvE game that was great for a couple players and was almost always a different experience when you played it, I'd do that too.

TalulaRose · May 2017

Most who play like combat.

Very few like fair competition.

ZionBane · May 2017

next up on "Iron Chef America"... umm I mean... "American Biker Build Off" ... Wait.. I mean "MMO Craft Off"....

SEANMCAD · May 2017

laxie said:

Nyctelios said:

"PvP Crafting games" like survival or battle royale? Yes. Of course.

I was thinking something along the lines of competitive crafting. Perhaps a group of people has to compete and craft the best item within a time limit.

It may be too niche of an idea though.

play 7 Days to Die to get some ideas of 'feel'.

its not really 'competitive crafting' but it can often be intense speed crafting. if you dont get your place built in time your done!

13thBen · May 2017

Of Course! PVP players loves the competition. Survival of the Fittest

cameltosis · May 2017

laxie said:

It's something I've been thinking about recently.

PvP offers both high combat difficulty and competition with other players. Which one is it that draws players to enjoy PvP?

If it is the competition, would there be space for "PvP Crafting" games? Would those appeal to a similar crowd, perhaps making non-combat games more accessible to the hardcore players?

For me, its not one or the other. Assuming some sort of balance, my enjoyment of pvp comes from the following places

1) Unpredictability - by this, I mean when encounters happen. Open world pvp is more unpredictable, but when you come across a pvp fight unexpectedly my adrenaline soars. I liken it to the last 30 seconds of a nail-biting raid boss. You really want to win, but you don't know if you can because you've never done so before. I love these adrenaline spikes. The best are balanced group encounters (6v6) - you get an initial rush from first engagement, but fights can often last 5mins+ so the tension builds rapidly. The desire to win increases with the duration of the fight so by the end, it can feel the same as it does when you first kill a raid boss after months of wiping.

2) Challenge - I find PvE far too easy, the only challenge comes from high-end raiding and even then, most of the challenge is simply making sure other people don't make mistakes. PvP is different. Once you reach the top of the power curve, you start getting balanced fights with other pvpers at the top of the curve, so you know player skill and class balance are the reasons for winning / losing. I get more challenge from 1 hour of pvp than 1 month of pve.

3) Scale - PvP tends to be the only place where you see 50+ players all participating in the same action. I love keep fights, I love being part of pvp raids, I love soloing and picking off stragglers, I love defending and attacking keeps. No other gameplay style, or genre, offers me the same sense of scale I get from open world pvp.

4) Competition / Roleplay - it is nice to beat people. It feels good. It feels the best when the fight has been good, i.e. balanced and took a while. It feels good on a personal level - I'm the better player and so I beat you - but also feels good within the context of the game - I took this keep for the good of my realm.

5) Flexibility - PvP allows me to solo, small group, or raid. I can do it for 5 minutes, 1 hour or 24 hours. In other words, I have complete freedom of gameplay with no consequences for my choice. With PvE, I am constantly constrained by the content. Can't raid unless I have 11 other people online and need 3 hours. Can't do a dungeon without 5 others and 1hr free.

On the PvP crafting front, sure, there is still competition so you still feel good for having beat someone else. However, it wouldn't suit me as it is lacking the interaction between players. In combat, my enemy is always forcing me to react - do i use a health potion, blow that cooldown etc - but in a crafting game I can't imagine you having to react to your opponent. This then removes the unpredictability and challenge factors.

I guess I'd compare it to doing timed laps in a racing game. Timed laps can be fun, you aim for perfection in your lap in order to get a faster time than other people. But, every lap is the same so it is very predictable. I would much rather do a multiplayer race where,sure, my lap times will suck but that is because I'll be blocking other racers, smashing into them, avoiding crashes etc. It will be a much more engaging experience and therefore, more enjoyable.

Hawkaya399 · May 2017

laxie said:

It's something I've been thinking about recently.

PvP offers both high combat difficulty and competition with other players. Which one is it that draws players to enjoy PvP?

If it is the competition, would there be space for "PvP Crafting" games? Would those appeal to a similar crowd, perhaps making non-combat games more accessible to the hardcore players?

I've long played PvP open world. First thing I did whne I logged into Everquest was created a character on Rallos Zek. I remember it was a nightmare in Blackburrow. People were murdering each other with corpses everywhere. I remember players being spawn camped. This was only days after launch, so everybody was still figuring out the game and the server pop was off the charts. Later I played on Sullon Zek where a level 60 could kill a level 5. Those wre the best and most cherished years. In UO I had things stolen from me at the bank. I loved UO. I played on many UO player servers. One of muy favorites was second age era and with monster invasions. I played on Shadowbane where htey made cities and seiged each other. I did Diablo II hardcore. Did some PvP muds. In 2012 I started a charater on epic and Chaos in Wurm Online. It's open world full loot PvP, where even your house can be destroyed and looted.

So why do I do it? For danger. For freedom. I favor sandboxes. I don't like to PvP myself. I run more often than I attack. I hate griefing. But I'm drawn to it like a moth to the zapper. I get mad. Don't always enjoy it. It's not really a game to me. It's survival. I also like survival games. I think I like htem for the same reason.

Extra danger. That's the biggest reason. NPC AI doesn't touch it.

I love PvE. 95% of my time was PvE. It's not mutually exclusive. I need both. I've played some PvE-only servers or MMO's. I like the PvP to be open world and without strict rules. I like the players to be enabled to police themselves.

Hawkaya399 · May 2017

hatefulpeace said:

laxie said:

It's something I've been thinking about recently.

PvP offers both high combat difficulty and competition with other players. Which one is it that draws players to enjoy PvP?

If it is the competition, would there be space for "PvP Crafting" games? Would those appeal to a similar crowd, perhaps making non-combat games more accessible to the hardcore players?

Nope, doesn't work. Ryzom has a PVP crafting game, meaning you have to spend lots of time and hard work to get good at crafting, to compete with the other masters at crafting, and 3 people play it. Most people don't like to craft, that is why all most all games have basically no crafting system. SWG has a pvp crafting system to, and no one plays that either.

Combat PVP is mostly mindless clicking for the majority of people. Haven't you ever played a MOBA? They literally just run around and click, not paying attention to much of anything. Your asking for a game that would require a huge attention span, and the majority of people have the attention span of dory the fish.

Good you bring up Ryzom.

The thing I didni't like about Ryzom was it was so strongly crafting-oriented everything else seemed secondary or negelected. I prefer a balance between getting items in PvE combat and crafting. I've done plenty of crafting in my time, yet I like to go into dungeons and get items that way too. I stopped playing Ryzom after a while. It was just too little sandbox and too much crafting and resource hunting. It did some some fun things, it's still possible I'll revisit it someday, but being it's old probably not.

cantankerousmage · May 2017

COMPETITION, COMPETITION, COMPETITION

I like fun.

Challenge = Fun

Fair and Balanced Competition = Challenge

It really helps a lot if the combat is fun too though. I like both old-school and action combat for mmorpgs. I can play either. Though old-school combat is probably better for games attempting to be real role-playing games, there are benefits to action combat as well. I like being able to block or dodge attacks. Also, action combat makes it harder for people to multi-box different accounts.

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