@ZionBane - Don't worry, bro, you can keep playing the kind of games you like to play. I won't get in your way. If the currently available games to play are the best that developers have to offer, I don't think I'll be playing MMORPGs anymore period. I've had enough. I quit.
Aww, you don't ave to Quit, MOBA's sound more like what you want to play anyway. I'd suggest giving Warhammer 40K Eternal Crusade a check out, see if what it puts out is more like what you were looking for. It's free, so you have nothing to lose by giving it a Try.
I like MMORPGs where you are not the hero. I mean, I've liked both types, but I prefer the games where you are just an average nobody.
You must be epic at Farmville.
I played EVE for like 7 years. There are of course other games like Darkfall or Ryzom that I played for a while back in the day. I prefer those experiences over the typical, "I'm saving the world" games where the 13 people next to you are also saving the world at their own pace.
Strange how these threads, ostensibly asking why PvE players don't like PvP, always degenerate into threads were PvP players talk about how wonderful PvP is while denigrating PvE players as care bears or worse.
Strange how these threads, ostensibly asking why PvE players don't like PvP, always degenerate into threads were PvP players talk about how wonderful PvP is while denigrating PvE players as care bears or worse.
Well to be fair, PvE players also do a good job of trying to portray PvP players as sociopaths. Blame needs to go all around on this one.
MMORPG PvPers are seen as sociopaths because the nonsociopath PvP players are playing games that actually have fair PvP battles, like Overwatch or League of Legends, as opposed to an MMORPG where zerging, ganking, or simply outgearing your opponent are options. I mean, heck, just look at Chronicles of Elyria, a PvP game where tons of its supporters actually support RMT and cheating, on grounds that "everyone is doing it".
If you're at a point where you think "everyone is doing it" is an acceptable justification for why ANYTHING should be acceptable, you probably lean towards the more sociopath side of the personality spectrum in the first place.
MMORPG PvPers are seen as sociopaths because the nonsociopath PvP players are playing games that actually have fair PvP battles, like Overwatch or League of Legends, as opposed to an MMORPG where zerging, ganking, or simply outgearing your opponent are options.
That sums things up pretty nicely.
Only thing, is CoE, I think is trying to be a "Fantasy Spin on EVE" which would make sense if you looked at it that way. I don't think PvE players will be lasting in that game, Nor do I think it will grow larger then EvE has, but. To their credit, at least they make it clear that it's an Open World PvP game.
Mortal Online is currently trying to downplay it's PvP on it's main site (They are doing all they can to make it sound "not that bad".. LOL). Personally, if it's an Open-World-Full-loot-PVP-MMO, the developer should own that, and market that, as PvE players and people not looking for that, are not suddenly going to stay around once they realize what is going on.
I've always prefered the fantasy theme as well, especially now that I'm with another gamer who prefers it more than I do.
Chris Roberts did an amazing job with Freelancer though. For it's time it was one of the absolutely best games out there. That's where I learned an amazing sci-fi game can draw me into the universe enough that I'm ok with it not being fantasy.
The fact that it is the only game on the market that seems to be trying to make a departure from vertical progression certainly is a major selling point to me. If it can bring me back to my Freelancer days that's going to set a pretty high bar for the fantasy games on the market to beat.
If not for the acquisition of power and progress, what point is there to play any game?
If the power and progress has no greater objective than the acquisition of power and progress itself, what is the point to play any game?
That's at least the question I find myself asking with most MMOs. Power and progress should not be an end goal. They are a means to an end, and if the end is good enough, they can be cut out entirely without harming the game.
In Freelancer I found that end to be player politics. That is at least why I acquired diplomatic power, and progressed my skills as a player. To fight for causes I believed in. The constant presence of groups with opposing aims and ideals made this an ongoing process that was never truly over.
The primary thing I found to be lacking though was meaningful territorial control and the ability to really dig in, reinforce, and take control of an area. Control had to be exercised through constant defense of your area which could and would change when you and your allies were offline.
That's what I came to MMOs to find, and there are some MMOs that do it much better. Unfortunately none of them have the same low barrier to entry or engaging combat system Freelancer did. So my MMO gaming career for the last 10 years has been finding the best compromise of those areas available.
But, it was still power and progress, regardless if it was Political Power, Wealth, or the ability to shrug off a Laser Blast to the face, the game needs to offer some kind of progression, something that gives someone who has been playing for a while, a distinct advantage over someone that just started. Often this comes in the form of levels, stats, or what have you.
if after a year of playing, I have no more an advantage inherent in the game then I did the day I started, why did bother to play the game, I may as well posted on Facebook, and went to the movies.
Beyond the first few hours of play it offered no progression in the form of level and stats that actually made you stronger.
What it did offer is an engaging combat system that took a lot of practice to master and player driven politics.
In other words, I wasn't out there blowing up NPCs to get 500,000 XP for a +5 attack bonus. I was practicing maneuvering techniques. Finding weaknesses in the combat style of other players I could exploit. Finding weaknesses in my own techniques I could tighten down.
On the diplomatic end I was making connections, building a reputation, maneuvering myself into positions of power and setting up beneficial alliances. Becoming loved by those who I wanted to love me and feared by those I wanted to fear me.
So there was progression but it wasn't artificial. It was real progression that I personally had to work on and challenge myself to achieve.
I have no problem with that kind of progression.
I do have a problem with you get 500,000 XP and so your attack goes up by 5.
@ZionBane - Don't worry, bro, you can keep playing the kind of games you like to play. I won't get in your way. If the currently available games to play are the best that developers have to offer, I don't think I'll be playing MMORPGs anymore period. I've had enough. I quit.
Aww, you don't ave to Quit, MOBA's sound more like what you want to play anyway. I'd suggest giving Warhammer 40K Eternal Crusade a check out, see if what it puts out is more like what you were looking for. It's free, so you have nothing to lose by giving it a Try.
No, I don't like MOBAs. I like MMORPGs. At least the idea of them. I just don't like the ones that call themselves MMORPGs right now.
@ZionBane - Don't worry, bro, you can keep playing the kind of games you like to play. I won't get in your way. If the currently available games to play are the best that developers have to offer, I don't think I'll be playing MMORPGs anymore period. I've had enough. I quit.
Aww, you don't ave to Quit, MOBA's sound more like what you want to play anyway. I'd suggest giving Warhammer 40K Eternal Crusade a check out, see if what it puts out is more like what you were looking for. It's free, so you have nothing to lose by giving it a Try.
No, I don't like MOBAs. I like MMORPGs. At least the idea of them. I just don't like the ones that call themselves MMORPGs right now.
What MOBA's have you played? Have you tried Warhammer 40K Eternal Crusade?
How do you know you don't like them, as it seems they are everything you put out that you want, Open PvP, with safe places to do loadouts and stuff, Fair combat with minimal raw power advances.
I don't know about other MOBAs' but, in the one I play, WH40KEC is set up a lot like DAoC, with 3 warring factions, and you play a generic Space Marine, Ork, or Eldar, not some special named person like they have set up Overwatch. You chose your combat style, (healing, assault, heavy ranged, tactical) and then make a load out with the gear you have as well as being able to acquire more advanced or just cool looking gear as you play. Not to mention they have progress trees for your characters. While it's not massive in the power it gives, as you are still capped by how many loadout points you can invest, so no matter what, you can't make a 'God" character in the game, even if you can gain some form of progress.
They even have a lore reason why they are fighting each other, and well some of us even role play.
It has almost NOTHING to do with the OTHER player and that is the point. I want to play MY role playing game and not catered to someone else's intentions.
A simple analogy would be if i go to a hockey game,i don't want to be fighting with the fans,security and whomever else,i want to WATCH and enjoy the game on the ice. When comes time for interaction,i want it to be the interaction I want and not what someone else wants. I guess many people just don;'t get it.myself and others have played pvp games for years,we kill other players in the drones,that doesn't mean i want to do that in every single game i play.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It has almost NOTHING to do with the OTHER player and that is the point. I want to play MY role playing game and not catered to someone else's intentions.
A simple analogy would be if i go to a hockey game,i don't want to be fighting with the fans,security and whomever else,i want to WATCH and enjoy the game on the ice. When comes time for interaction,i want it to be the interaction I want and not what someone else wants. I guess many people just don;'t get it.myself and others have played pvp games for years,we kill other players in the drones,that doesn't mean i want to do that in every single game i play.
You don't have to do it in every single MMORPG you play, so I'm not sure I see your point. I don't want to change every single game in the world into the kind of game I want to play. I'm not some kind of control freak. I just enjoy the possibility that someday, somehow an MMORPG might be made that I actually want to play.
@ZionBane - Do battles in MOBAs have any effect or consequence on a virtual persistent world whatsoever?
By the nature of what a persistent world is player actions don't have any effect or consequence upon the world as a whole.
If you were looking for a game were a player had the same power to affect the future of the game world as a developer does.... well.. not be rude, but, thanks for playing.
@ZionBane - Do battles in MOBAs have any effect or consequence on a virtual persistent world whatsoever?
By the nature of what a persistent world is player actions don't have any effect or consequence upon the world as a whole.
If you were looking for a game were a player had the same power to affect the future of the game world as a developer does.... well.. not be rude, but, thanks for playing.
Yes, I can play pencil-and-paper rpgs if I like. I might actually get to role-play in a game. If the Dungeon/Game Master is worth his or her salt.
@ZionBane - Do battles in MOBAs have any effect or consequence on a virtual persistent world whatsoever?
By the nature of what a persistent world is player actions don't have any effect or consequence upon the world as a whole.
If you were looking for a game were a player had the same power to affect the future of the game world as a developer does.... well.. not be rude, but, thanks for playing.
Yes, I can play pencil-and-paper rpgs if I like. I might actually get to role-play in a game. If the Dungeon/Game Master is worth his or her salt.
Sure, go have fun.. play whatever strikes your fancy, but the reality is, you won't affect the cannon of a P-n-P Game world anymore then you will paying an MOBA. After all, your little group is just a shard, in fact, more an instance, no matter what you do.. the Lore, the game, and it's overall direction.. will not change.
@ZionBane - Do battles in MOBAs have any effect or consequence on a virtual persistent world whatsoever?
By the nature of what a persistent world is player actions don't have any effect or consequence upon the world as a whole.
If you were looking for a game were a player had the same power to affect the future of the game world as a developer does.... well.. not be rude, but, thanks for playing.
Yes, I can play pencil-and-paper rpgs if I like. I might actually get to role-play in a game. If the Dungeon/Game Master is worth his or her salt.
Sure, go have fun.. play whatever strikes your fancy, but the reality is, you won't affect the cannon of a P-n-P Game world anymore then you will paying an MOBA. After all, your little group is just a shard, in fact, more an instance, no matter what you do.. the Lore, the game, and it's overall direction.. will not change.
Sorry if that upsets you, but that's the truth.
Have you ever played a pencil-and-paper rpg? You can totally change the direction and course of events and future history of a game world in a pencil-and-paper rpg. Gamemasters can even allow players to kill important NPCs. New Lore can be created by players, gamemasters, or even by the actions of players in the game world. Also, the rules of any pencil-and-paper rpg are not just determined by rulebooks. Players and GM/DMs determine which rules they want to use in any given adventure or campaign. There are almost always optional rules in rulebooks, and players and gamemasters can decide to use any kind of house rules they want.
That's sad. Not all player driven content means "you are my punching bag." Sometimes it means you are my quest giver in that you give me a task to do for a reward. Sometimes it means you are the trader I seek down to buy an item I need from. Sometimes it means you're the person I rescue from a crappy situation and sometimes it means you're the person who rescues me from a crappy situation. Sometimes it simply means we go out and do something fun together that wouldn't have been as fun alone and sometimes it means we just sit around and talk.
I personally enjoy people's game content and having them be mine. Sometimes through PvP, sometimes through just general interaction, sometimes through helping each other out.
@ZionBane - Do battles in MOBAs have any effect or consequence on a virtual persistent world whatsoever?
By the nature of what a persistent world is player actions don't have any effect or consequence upon the world as a whole.
If you were looking for a game were a player had the same power to affect the future of the game world as a developer does.... well.. not be rude, but, thanks for playing.
The same thing happens in Darkfall, Mortal, EVE and Wurm and is destined to happen in games like Star Citizen, Life is Feudal and Chronicles of Elyria if the succeed.
Do you change the game mechanics? No Do you change the experience other players will have in the game? Yes Do you change the history and lore of the world? Yes Can you change the very face of the game world? In Wurm and Life is Feudal, Yes Will people who play the game later remember the names of major guilds and players? Yes
If you don't think you can have any effect or consequences on the world as a whole you've never played a sandbox game long enough to get an kind of understand of them whatsoever. Clearly.
@ZionBane - Do battles in MOBAs have any effect or consequence on a virtual persistent world whatsoever?
By the nature of what a persistent world is player actions don't have any effect or consequence upon the world as a whole.
If you were looking for a game were a player had the same power to affect the future of the game world as a developer does.... well.. not be rude, but, thanks for playing.
Yes, I can play pencil-and-paper rpgs if I like. I might actually get to role-play in a game. If the Dungeon/Game Master is worth his or her salt.
Sure, go have fun.. play whatever strikes your fancy, but the reality is, you won't affect the cannon of a P-n-P Game world anymore then you will paying an MOBA. After all, your little group is just a shard, in fact, more an instance, no matter what you do.. the Lore, the game, and it's overall direction.. will not change.
Sorry if that upsets you, but that's the truth.
Have you ever played a pencil-and-paper rpg? You can totally change the direction and course of events and future history of a game world in a pencil-and-paper rpg. Gamemasters can even allow players to kill important NPCs. New Lore can be created by players, gamemasters, or even by the actions of players in the game world. Also, the rules of any pencil-and-paper rpg are not just determined by rulebooks. Players and GM/DMs determine which rules they want to use in any given adventure or campaign. There are almost always optional rules in rulebooks, and players and gamemasters can decide to use any kind of house rules they want.
What you don't seem to grasp is that you're just in that single instance.
Allow me to explain. Lets say, you are playing P-n-P Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. You sit down to play the Module "Sea of Glass" and you and your group totally rewrite the entire adventure, were the ending is nothing like anyone could imagine, and it was amazing.
But, you didn't change the Module. You only affected your group, on that one single play through.
The hundreds of other groups out there running that same module are not only unaffected by what you have you and yours have done, but by an large, they remain unaware as well.
In short, you have in effect changed.. nothing... but I am sure you had a great time doing it.
Much in the same way, I just playing WH40KEC, as ever I was playing my Ork Painboy, we were doing Station Wagon, and it was an epic defense, we ran out of tickets with over a Minuit and half left, and the Space Marines were hitting us hard. Our Loota boys braced up, and several of us Painboys were running up and down the lines, not only keeping them alive, but also going fisticuffs with the Assault Humies that were busting through the line. It was an amazing Waaaagggghhhhh !
Then we moved on the next game, and.. well those humies owned us, payback was harsh and brutal at the ends of their chainswords.
But in the end of things, I knew our epic defense was just done for love of the game, thrill of the fight, and that last glorious stand, the game did not change because of it.. much in the same way.. no matter how epic or bland your adventure may be on that round table P-n-P Campaign, running Sea of Glass or whatever module struck your fancy that week... that Module will never change because of your actions and you will have zero effect on those that played it before you, after you, and even those that were running at the same time as you in a different location.
P-n-P players know this, they know their actions are in a bubble, limited to just their group, their private campaign.. their... "Personal Story"
That is why MMO's are Persistent Worlds, because they need to be there for those that come after you, leaving the dungeons and adventures unmolested by whatever actions you took, so that those players can pave their own way though them. Just like in the real-world, were you don't affect the Modules or Campaigns of other people. You can no more change the "game world" of a P-n-P Campaign then you can change a Movie, why were you expecting more from an MMO?
@ZionBane - Do battles in MOBAs have any effect or consequence on a virtual persistent world whatsoever?
By the nature of what a persistent world is player actions don't have any effect or consequence upon the world as a whole.
If you were looking for a game were a player had the same power to affect the future of the game world as a developer does.... well.. not be rude, but, thanks for playing.
Yes, I can play pencil-and-paper rpgs if I like. I might actually get to role-play in a game. If the Dungeon/Game Master is worth his or her salt.
Sure, go have fun.. play whatever strikes your fancy, but the reality is, you won't affect the cannon of a P-n-P Game world anymore then you will paying an MOBA. After all, your little group is just a shard, in fact, more an instance, no matter what you do.. the Lore, the game, and it's overall direction.. will not change.
Sorry if that upsets you, but that's the truth.
Have you ever played a pencil-and-paper rpg? You can totally change the direction and course of events and future history of a game world in a pencil-and-paper rpg. Gamemasters can even allow players to kill important NPCs. New Lore can be created by players, gamemasters, or even by the actions of players in the game world. Also, the rules of any pencil-and-paper rpg are not just determined by rulebooks. Players and GM/DMs determine which rules they want to use in any given adventure or campaign. There are almost always optional rules in rulebooks, and players and gamemasters can decide to use any kind of house rules they want.
What you don't seem to grasp is that you're just in that single instance.
Allow me to explain. Lets say, you are playing P-n-P Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. You sit down to play the Module "Sea of Glass" and you and your group totally rewrite the entire adventure, were the ending is nothing like anyone could imagine, and it was amazing.
But, you didn't change the Module. You only affected your group, on that one single play through.
The hundreds of other groups out there running that same module are not only unaffected by what you have you and yours have done, but by an large, they remain unaware as well.
In short, you have in effect changed.. nothing... but I am sure you had a great time doing it.
Much in the same way, I just playing WH40KEC, as ever I was playing my Ork Painboy, we were doing Station Wagon, and it was an epic defense, we ran out of tickets with over a Minuit and half left, and the Space Marines were hitting us hard. Our Loota boys braced up, and several of us Painboys were running up and down the lines, not only keeping them alive, but also going fisticuffs with the Assault Humies that were busting through the line. It was an amazing Waaaagggghhhhh !
Then we moved on the next game, and.. well those humies owned us, payback was harsh and brutal at the ends of their chainswords.
But in the end of things, I knew our epic defense was just done for love of the game, thrill of the fight, and that last glorious stand, the game did not change because of it.. much in the same way.. no matter how epic or bland your adventure may be on that round table P-n-P Campaign, running Sea of Glass or whatever module struck your fancy that week... that Module will never change because of your actions and you will have zero effect on those that played it before you, after you, and even those that were running at the same time as you in a different location.
P-n-P players know this, they know their actions are in a bubble, limited to just their group, their private campaign.. their... "Personal Story"
That is why MMO's are Persistent Worlds, because they need to be there for those that come after you, leaving the dungeons and adventures unmolested by whatever actions you took, so that those players can pave their own way though them. Just like in the real-world, were you don't affect the Modules or Campaigns of other people. You can no more change the "game world" of a P-n-P Campaign then you can change a Movie, why were you expecting more from an MMO?
Why do MMOs need to be anything just because they've always or mostly been that way?
Are dreamers not allowed to dream?
Are idealists not allowed to have ideals?
Are thinkers not allowed think?
Are writers not allowed to write?
Are inventors not allowed to invent?
Are developers of MMORPGs, nascent, present, or former, not allowed to develop new or different ways of developing MMORPGs?
EDIT: I'll tell you one thing that's not possible though. Anyone that thinks they can control what I think, say, or do is going to be sorely disappointed. Anyone can try, but I'm willing to bet my life that he or she will fail. Or at least have to kill me or kidnap me, put me in a locked room, and quite possibly torture me mercilessly in order to try to bend me to his or her way of thinking.
Oh, and btw, I know that PnP RPGs have that limitation. That's why I think it would be totally amazing if an MMORPG could be made that actually had the same sorts of freedoms that a PnP RPG has.
I read that question and immediately dismissed it as a stupid question, but then I thought about it and realized I don't really have an answer. Guess it wasn't so stupid after all. I don't mind beating my face into the dirt against a difficult computer opponent. Take Elite: Dangerous, for example. It's known that the Elite NPC enemies employ various tactics and abilities in ways that players simply can't do, yet we don't cry foul because it keeps difficulty from becoming too easy. And yet, when a player cheats or uses extreme level differences to create an easy play field, we shun that person and write our defeats off as an "unfair advantage."
Now that's all common sense and easily explained, but it doesn't translate the same way into real life; at least for me. I'm a not quite middle aged white guy, yet I still enjoy basketball. Let's just say it isn't my gift, and I lose or miss WAY more than I win. The only time I've ever dunked was on one of those kiddie goals pretending I was Jordan back in the 80's. Why then do I avoid PvP in video games when I might seek out competition in other parts of my life despite my clear and obvious disadvantages? Good question, OP. I honestly don't know, but it's fun to think about.
@ZionBane - Do battles in MOBAs have any effect or consequence on a virtual persistent world whatsoever?
By the nature of what a persistent world is player actions don't have any effect or consequence upon the world as a whole.
If you were looking for a game were a player had the same power to affect the future of the game world as a developer does.... well.. not be rude, but, thanks for playing.
The same thing happens in Darkfall, Mortal, EVE and Wurm and is destined to happen in games like Star Citizen, Life is Feudal and Chronicles of Elyria if the succeed.
Do you change the game mechanics? No Do you change the experience other players will have in the game? Yes Do you change the history and lore of the world? Yes Can you change the very face of the game world? In Wurm and Life is Feudal, Yes Will people who play the game later remember the names of major guilds and players? Yes
If you don't think you can have any effect or consequences on the world as a whole you've never played a sandbox game long enough to get an kind of understand of them whatsoever. Clearly.
You can dream all you like. I won't stop you. I was trying to help you by suggesting a game style that might be what you like.
If you plan however, to either have your dream game, or never play an MMO again, well, I'll leave you with a few quotes, both from the same Movie and Same Character
Guy Gagné: No dream is too big, and no dreamer is too small.
And he also said
Guy Gagné: And Dreamers... Well.... lets just say eventually, they have to wake up.
I read that question and immediately dismissed it as a stupid question, but then I thought about it and realized I don't really have an answer. Guess it wasn't so stupid after all. I don't mind beating my face into the dirt against a difficult computer opponent. Take Elite: Dangerous, for example. It's known that the Elite NPC enemies employ various tactics and abilities in ways that players simply can't do, yet we don't cry foul because it keeps difficulty from becoming too easy. And yet, when a player cheats or uses extreme level differences to create an easy play field, we shun that person and write our defeats off as an "unfair advantage."
Now that's all common sense and easily explained, but it doesn't translate the same way into real life; at least for me. I'm a not quite middle aged white guy, yet I still enjoy basketball. Let's just say it isn't my gift, and I lose or miss WAY more than I win. The only time I've ever dunked was on one of those kiddie goals pretending I was Jordan back in the 80's. Why then do I avoid PvP in video games when I might seek out competition in other parts of my life despite my clear and obvious disadvantages? Good question, OP. I honestly don't know, but it's fun to think about.
When we lose to other player-characters, we lose to another player.
When we lose to AI mobs, we lose to the designers/developers/programmers.
Whether or not we lose to PCs, NPCs, or AI Mobs in an MMORPG, we're still basically competing with other human beings that we can't normally see.
Comments
Aww, you don't ave to Quit, MOBA's sound more like what you want to play anyway. I'd suggest giving Warhammer 40K Eternal Crusade a check out, see if what it puts out is more like what you were looking for. It's free, so you have nothing to lose by giving it a Try.
I played EVE for like 7 years. There are of course other games like Darkfall or Ryzom that I played for a while back in the day. I prefer those experiences over the typical, "I'm saving the world" games where the 13 people next to you are also saving the world at their own pace.
Well to be fair, PvE players also do a good job of trying to portray PvP players as sociopaths. Blame needs to go all around on this one.
~~ postlarval ~~
If you're at a point where you think "everyone is doing it" is an acceptable justification for why ANYTHING should be acceptable, you probably lean towards the more sociopath side of the personality spectrum in the first place.
That sums things up pretty nicely.
Only thing, is CoE, I think is trying to be a "Fantasy Spin on EVE" which would make sense if you looked at it that way. I don't think PvE players will be lasting in that game, Nor do I think it will grow larger then EvE has, but. To their credit, at least they make it clear that it's an Open World PvP game.
Mortal Online is currently trying to downplay it's PvP on it's main site (They are doing all they can to make it sound "not that bad".. LOL). Personally, if it's an Open-World-Full-loot-PVP-MMO, the developer should own that, and market that, as PvE players and people not looking for that, are not suddenly going to stay around once they realize what is going on.
Beyond the first few hours of play it offered no progression in the form of level and stats that actually made you stronger.
What it did offer is an engaging combat system that took a lot of practice to master and player driven politics.
In other words, I wasn't out there blowing up NPCs to get 500,000 XP for a +5 attack bonus. I was practicing maneuvering techniques. Finding weaknesses in the combat style of other players I could exploit. Finding weaknesses in my own techniques I could tighten down.
On the diplomatic end I was making connections, building a reputation, maneuvering myself into positions of power and setting up beneficial alliances. Becoming loved by those who I wanted to love me and feared by those I wanted to fear me.
So there was progression but it wasn't artificial. It was real progression that I personally had to work on and challenge myself to achieve.
I have no problem with that kind of progression.
I do have a problem with you get 500,000 XP and so your attack goes up by 5.
No, I don't like MOBAs. I like MMORPGs. At least the idea of them. I just don't like the ones that call themselves MMORPGs right now.
What MOBA's have you played? Have you tried Warhammer 40K Eternal Crusade?
How do you know you don't like them, as it seems they are everything you put out that you want, Open PvP, with safe places to do loadouts and stuff, Fair combat with minimal raw power advances.
I don't know about other MOBAs' but, in the one I play, WH40KEC is set up a lot like DAoC, with 3 warring factions, and you play a generic Space Marine, Ork, or Eldar, not some special named person like they have set up Overwatch. You chose your combat style, (healing, assault, heavy ranged, tactical) and then make a load out with the gear you have as well as being able to acquire more advanced or just cool looking gear as you play. Not to mention they have progress trees for your characters. While it's not massive in the power it gives, as you are still capped by how many loadout points you can invest, so no matter what, you can't make a 'God" character in the game, even if you can gain some form of progress.
They even have a lore reason why they are fighting each other, and well some of us even role play.
I want to play MY role playing game and not catered to someone else's intentions.
A simple analogy would be if i go to a hockey game,i don't want to be fighting with the fans,security and whomever else,i want to WATCH and enjoy the game on the ice.
When comes time for interaction,i want it to be the interaction I want and not what someone else wants.
I guess many people just don;'t get it.myself and others have played pvp games for years,we kill other players in the drones,that doesn't mean i want to do that in every single game i play.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
By the nature of what a persistent world is player actions don't have any effect or consequence upon the world as a whole.
If you were looking for a game were a player had the same power to affect the future of the game world as a developer does.... well.. not be rude, but, thanks for playing.
Yes, I can play pencil-and-paper rpgs if I like. I might actually get to role-play in a game. If the Dungeon/Game Master is worth his or her salt.
Sure, go have fun.. play whatever strikes your fancy, but the reality is, you won't affect the cannon of a P-n-P Game world anymore then you will paying an MOBA. After all, your little group is just a shard, in fact, more an instance, no matter what you do.. the Lore, the game, and it's overall direction.. will not change.
Sorry if that upsets you, but that's the truth.
That's sad. Not all player driven content means "you are my punching bag." Sometimes it means you are my quest giver in that you give me a task to do for a reward. Sometimes it means you are the trader I seek down to buy an item I need from. Sometimes it means you're the person I rescue from a crappy situation and sometimes it means you're the person who rescues me from a crappy situation. Sometimes it simply means we go out and do something fun together that wouldn't have been as fun alone and sometimes it means we just sit around and talk.
I personally enjoy people's game content and having them be mine. Sometimes through PvP, sometimes through just general interaction, sometimes through helping each other out.
This is just flat wrong.
This is players players affecting the game world.
This is a history written by players in which players were the primary actors.
http://kotaku.com/the-great-wars-of-eve-online-1768670882
The same thing happens in Darkfall, Mortal, EVE and Wurm and is destined to happen in games like Star Citizen, Life is Feudal and Chronicles of Elyria if the succeed.
Do you change the game mechanics? No
Do you change the experience other players will have in the game? Yes
Do you change the history and lore of the world? Yes
Can you change the very face of the game world? In Wurm and Life is Feudal, Yes
Will people who play the game later remember the names of major guilds and players? Yes
If you don't think you can have any effect or consequences on the world as a whole you've never played a sandbox game long enough to get an kind of understand of them whatsoever. Clearly.
What you don't seem to grasp is that you're just in that single instance.
Allow me to explain. Lets say, you are playing P-n-P Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. You sit down to play the Module "Sea of Glass" and you and your group totally rewrite the entire adventure, were the ending is nothing like anyone could imagine, and it was amazing.
But, you didn't change the Module. You only affected your group, on that one single play through.
The hundreds of other groups out there running that same module are not only unaffected by what you have you and yours have done, but by an large, they remain unaware as well.
In short, you have in effect changed.. nothing... but I am sure you had a great time doing it.
Much in the same way, I just playing WH40KEC, as ever I was playing my Ork Painboy, we were doing Station Wagon, and it was an epic defense, we ran out of tickets with over a Minuit and half left, and the Space Marines were hitting us hard. Our Loota boys braced up, and several of us Painboys were running up and down the lines, not only keeping them alive, but also going fisticuffs with the Assault Humies that were busting through the line. It was an amazing Waaaagggghhhhh !
Then we moved on the next game, and.. well those humies owned us, payback was harsh and brutal at the ends of their chainswords.
But in the end of things, I knew our epic defense was just done for love of the game, thrill of the fight, and that last glorious stand, the game did not change because of it.. much in the same way.. no matter how epic or bland your adventure may be on that round table P-n-P Campaign, running Sea of Glass or whatever module struck your fancy that week... that Module will never change because of your actions and you will have zero effect on those that played it before you, after you, and even those that were running at the same time as you in a different location.
P-n-P players know this, they know their actions are in a bubble, limited to just their group, their private campaign.. their... "Personal Story"
That is why MMO's are Persistent Worlds, because they need to be there for those that come after you, leaving the dungeons and adventures unmolested by whatever actions you took, so that those players can pave their own way though them. Just like in the real-world, were you don't affect the Modules or Campaigns of other people. You can no more change the "game world" of a P-n-P Campaign then you can change a Movie, why were you expecting more from an MMO?
Why do MMOs need to be anything just because they've always or mostly been that way?
Are dreamers not allowed to dream?
Are idealists not allowed to have ideals?
Are thinkers not allowed think?
Are writers not allowed to write?
Are inventors not allowed to invent?
Are developers of MMORPGs, nascent, present, or former, not allowed to develop new or different ways of developing MMORPGs?
EDIT: I'll tell you one thing that's not possible though. Anyone that thinks they can control what I think, say, or do is going to be sorely disappointed. Anyone can try, but I'm willing to bet my life that he or she will fail. Or at least have to kill me or kidnap me, put me in a locked room, and quite possibly torture me mercilessly in order to try to bend me to his or her way of thinking.
Oh, and btw, I know that PnP RPGs have that limitation. That's why I think it would be totally amazing if an MMORPG could be made that actually had the same sorts of freedoms that a PnP RPG has.
Now that's all common sense and easily explained, but it doesn't translate the same way into real life; at least for me. I'm a not quite middle aged white guy, yet I still enjoy basketball. Let's just say it isn't my gift, and I lose or miss WAY more than I win. The only time I've ever dunked was on one of those kiddie goals pretending I was Jordan back in the 80's. Why then do I avoid PvP in video games when I might seek out competition in other parts of my life despite my clear and obvious disadvantages? Good question, OP. I honestly don't know, but it's fun to think about.
@ZionBane
This is the answer to why he expected more from an MMO. Please address this.
You can dream all you like. I won't stop you. I was trying to help you by suggesting a game style that might be what you like.
If you plan however, to either have your dream game, or never play an MMO again, well, I'll leave you with a few quotes, both from the same Movie and Same Character
Guy Gagné: No dream is too big, and no dreamer is too small.
And he also said
Guy Gagné: And Dreamers... Well.... lets just say eventually, they have to wake up.
When we lose to other player-characters, we lose to another player.
When we lose to AI mobs, we lose to the designers/developers/programmers.
Whether or not we lose to PCs, NPCs, or AI Mobs in an MMORPG, we're still basically competing with other human beings that we can't normally see.