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Wanted: Characters/Classes With Non-Combat/Utility Skills That Are Useful in MMORPGs
cantankerousmage
Member UncommonPosts: 992
Get rid of the holy trinity (tank/healer/dps). It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that a dagger in the hands of a rogue does more damage than a sword in the hand of a fighter (for example).
Please see the rulebooks of pencil & paper rpgs for details. Scenarios/events and adventures/missions/tasks/quests as well as dungeons/lairs should be made to actually use these skills. Often. Sometimes they may just be enable a particular goal to be accomplished more easily, other times they may even be required. Encouraging group play. Making people feel needed and wanted. Oh, wait, no, we better not do that...
Please see the rulebooks of pencil & paper rpgs for details. Scenarios/events and adventures/missions/tasks/quests as well as dungeons/lairs should be made to actually use these skills. Often. Sometimes they may just be enable a particular goal to be accomplished more easily, other times they may even be required. Encouraging group play. Making people feel needed and wanted. Oh, wait, no, we better not do that...
Comments
But why no diversity? Because you have never grouped with "Killer" types of players, these are your DPS Critical focused players. They HATE all forms of crowd control. When ever developers start swinging a "NERF BAT", blame all the DPS Killers. Their complaining is why sooooo much rework has to be done on balance. They can't be persuaded by Calculations, Math, and Pages of Data Tables proving beyond any doubt that all classes are balanced. If reality doesn't match their imagination, then something is wrong.
So what ever you hope to accomplish, your true battle is against "KILLER DPS GAMERS." Good luck with that.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I get what the OP is saying. I grew into the "trinity" and it works for fighting but it does not work in the world of books, TV or movies. If it did you'd see it everywhere, just like in MMORPGs. The trinity just isn't realistic. I even wonder if it is holding back progress in gaming because it is so dominant.
If there was a game out there where you couldn't use it and it had a setting and play-style that I liked I would definitely look into it.
I've got a feevah, and the only prescription... is more cowbell.
You are correct, sir.
I believe that removing the trinity, or usefulness of it, ends up changing the game significantly enough that it becomes a different type of game almost entirely. You change the game and you change the players you are targeting. With the trinity being so well-known and popular it's easy to see why so many developers want to design their game/s to work with it, and why so many would see more risk in making and marketing a game that doesn't have it.
I've got a feevah, and the only prescription... is more cowbell.
Yeah, the trinity does not work in the worlds of books, TV and movies and its not realistic.
But, who cares?
MMORPGs are not books, TV or movies. MMORPGs are video games. The trinity works in video games.
And calling it "not realistic" is probably the most ridiculous criticism you could levy at it.
This! There is no possible way I could agree more.
I didn't defend the Trinity in my original post because there is no need. A world with out the trinity is the same as Life with out Food, Oxygen, Water, and Shelter. Meaningless.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Now the mmorpg genre is based on making the quickest $$ vs investment.
Rogue/Thief - pickpockets, open/pick locks, find/remove traps, move silently, hide in shadows, detect noise, climb walls (the only real chance a rogue usually has to do major damage in p&p rpgs is to do a successful backstab for double damage)
Cleric - turn undead, detect evil, detect magic, protection from evil, light spells (in case you didn't bring any torches or if there might be magical darkness) and an abundance of other prayers that could be used in non-combat situations if the game was programmed to use them
Mage - read magic, read/use magic scrolls, an abundance of spells that could be used in non-combat situations if the game was programmed to use them
Ranger - track (of course more suited for the wilderness than in a dungeon), possibly set traps, etc.
And there's always the possibility of secondary skills that any class might be able to learn, but could be useful in an mmorpg if it was designed that way
As for your precious trinity, no that does not exist whatsoever in p&p rpgs. If it did exist in D&D 4e, that was because they stupidly tried to make that edition more like mmorpgs. You don't need any particular class to play pencil-and-paper rpg adventures. A good dm/gm will design adventures around the classes the players in his or her group are playing, and actually plan encounters so that they will be able to use particular skills and abilities their characters possess if the players choose to use them.
Mages and rogues don't need to be the main dps in an mmorpg if it was designed to actually use skills and abilities that aren't combat focused. Parties would still require their services. And clerics or druids can do a lot more than buff, heal, and protect. Sure there can be some crowd control abilities, but those aren't so important either if dungeons aren't just a matter of slaying a ton of mobs on the way to the boss, so you can get your cheese. I meant chest.
Encounters, skirmishes, dungeons, etc could actually be designed in fun and creative ways that don't all or even mostly center around combat.
Yeah, that's it.
Say you need to complete an objective that lies beyond say, about three to four hundred enemies but there's a way to finish without defeating all those enemies. Sure, you could take the time and go through them group by group and get the experience for combat while using the tried and true trinity or you could all work together, using individual skills, to complete the objective faster. If you're under no time constraints, you don't get any special bonus for using skills over combat or you aren't penalized for defeating the mobs then it makes sense to fight, and use the trinity, because you get more XP that way.
That's the way I've seen it for years. Without reasons for not using the trinity then that's what groups will likely do every time because it rewards the best.
I've got a feevah, and the only prescription... is more cowbell.
Most MMORPGs out there are just glorified versions of Rodents & Mazes. Run, kill, and collect your cheese at the end of the maze. You guys are all basically just playing rodents chasing cheese. lol.
I wasn't trying to criticize it. I was merely stating a fact.
Just because something isn't realistic doesn't mean it can't work somewhere, somehow. The trinity does work in gaming in a great many places. That is a proven fact that I can't dispute or criticize in regards to the places where it does work.
I've got a feevah, and the only prescription... is more cowbell.
Of course, you can also design a game so that you don't even need to gain experience to level because there are no levels. You would just increase the level of your skills by using them (for the most part). But that's a whole other discussion on its own.
I played these games enough to understand what they're mostly all about, and I'm sick to death of them. I don't want to play Final Fantasy, Everquest, or World or Warcraft anymore or ever again.
All I've been doing with my threads is trying to apply the rules, systems, mechanics, and endless possibilities of pencil & paper rpgs to mmorpgs. It's not rocket science really. People even accused me of plagiarizing for some reason. Sometimes I do consult some D&D rule websites, but most of the time I'm writing stuff from memory or from how I think things should work. I read a lot of p&p rulebooks as a kid. Even dungeon mastered a few 2e AD&D sessions right after high school.
Anyway, I'm not asking for all mmorpgs to be made the way I would want them to be made. I would just like one. One that I would actually want to play. Because I refuse to play the stuff I'm offered to play any longer. I've had enough of it. I don't want to settle. I'd rather sit here and write and imagine what an mmorpg could be like than play anything on the market right now.
You did not need a fighter (or any sort of 'tank' class) or cleric (or any sort of 'healer' class) to play AD&D.
You and your friends could play in a party without either a so-called 'tank' or a so-called 'healer'. You did not need either one for a party to survive in P&P AD&D or D&D.
Thieves had to move silently and/or strike from the shadows (or attack someone who simply had their back turned to them in a battle) in order to use backstab. It wasn't something a thief could use all the time or in every encounter. There were conditions.
The warrior classes (in 2e AD&D were fighter, ranger, and paladin) were actually the highest dps classes because they could use the heavier weapons that did the most damage. Fighters and paladins could wear heavier armor and use shields as well, but the number of hitpoints of warriors (fighter, ranger, paladin) weren't so much greater than every other class that they could really be classified as a tank.
Clerics weren't there simply to buff and heal. They had many other prayers that could be useful in all kinds of different situations.
Similarly, mages were not there just to burn things down with attack spells. Not many attack spells were that much more powerful than weapons anyway. Plus it took time to cast spells. And they couldn't cast as many as spells as they wanted in a day. There were limits. They had many other kinds of spells could be useful in all kinds of different situations.
Btw, here are the Hit Dice for the four class groups.
Warrior - 1D8 (bonuses for high Constitution) + 1D8 per level increase
Rogue - 1D4 " " + 1D4 per level increase
Priest - 1D6 " " + 1D6 per level increase
Mage - 1D4 " " + 1D4 per level increase
You don't have to use all the rules in 2e or 3e or 5e or whatever edition you choose to play though. You can use optional rules. You can even use optional rules. And D&D isn't the best system anymore either. I hear Pathfinder and Shadowrun have better systems. I reference D&D because that is what I know best.
I don't know what you mean by the saving grace of pen and paper rpgs though. P&P rpgs are a thousand to a million times better than mmorpgs. The only thing you don't have in p&p rpgs as opposed to mmorpgs is the real possibility of having good pvp. D&D and most other p&p rpg systems are designed for pve only, and they shouldn't even be used for pvp really. Also, you don't normally get to share your role-playing world with other p&p rpg groups. That's the main limitation. That's why I think that if an mmorpg could be made like a p&p rpg someday, it would be so much better.
However, you cannot use systems designed for pve to make pvp games. You can't use vertical level progression. You definitely can't use unlimited vertical gear progression at all (which doesn't even exist in p&p rpgs). You also can't allow player characters to master more than a few skills. (Unless they are geniuses or prodigies, then they can master a few more.) Because if you do, you have totally unbalanced, unfair, and non-competitive pvp. And if you have that, why have pvp at all?
PENCIL & PAPER RPGS ARE NOT ALL ABOUT COMBAT LIKE MMORPGS ARE!
They're not even supposed to be, or at least they don't have to be (and I don't think they should be) even mostly about combat.
If you played pencil & paper rpgs and your adventures and/or campaigns were mostly combat and rolling dice, then your dungeon master or game master did not know what he or she was doing. Period.
What you are looking for is a themed virtual world simulation. Something that MMORPGs (at least once) wanted but failed to be before degenerating into action games with sometimes more sometimes less stuff build around the combat experience.
The closest I saw to this where 2nd life which come off as incoherent everything and Entropia Universe which has the foundation but is too concerned with its RMT schemes and lacks the player-base.
Trinity system is simply a matter of interdependence between characters, which is widely missing from today's MMO games.
As far as non-combat skills / utility skills being used to expand as an MMORPG, that would be nice.
I am starting to notice a "complex questions" trend in your threads.
The interdependence between characters represented by tank-healer-dps trinity theme could be replaced by the need for classes with different non-combat/utility skills in encounters, scenarios, skirmishes, or dungeons that were not totally centered around combat. The need to fight something to the death is the least imaginative obstacle one can possibly be presented with in an rpg.
Also, the idea that all you have to do is give mobs more hp, more attack, and more defense is the best way to make them more challenging is equally unimaginative. And if there's some technique need to defeat a boss, it shouldn't have to be learned by trial and error. As in dying in a battle or dungeon or wiping in a raid until you accidentally figure out what you're supposed to do. There should be logic to it. Even clues.
In real life, or in novels and movies, a hero might fight weaker, less skilled, or less intelligent opponents at first, but, as they progress, they usually end up fighting stronger, more skilled, or more intelligent opponents. They use different techniques, tactics, and strategies and strategies to which the hero must adjust him or herself, or else be defeated. Different opponents usually have different strengths and weaknesses. Nothing to do with how many hitpoints they have or how many pluses they have to their attack or defense. Armor and weapons only help so much. Knowledge, wisdom, charisma, wit/intelligence, skill, training, techniques, tactics, strategy, and teamwork are far more important. Strength, dexterity, and constitution or endurance play a role as well in contests that are mostly or entirely physical.
Yet again, I agree with you, and you with me.
The reason seems to be obvious as to why, having read through other threads as well. We both recognize that a proper MMORPG ought to be designed in the direction only begun of the Pen & Paper RPG, to deliver the Pen & Paper RPG's player characters' experience in an online virtual world. You will find a great many adversaries & trolls with that outlook though, I certainly had found my share with that same outlook. Carry on...