Why do PvP'ers want PvE'ers in their game?

ZionBane · May 2017

The title pretty much sums up the question.

What is the fixation with PvP players trying to get PvE players into their MMO's or wanting every PvE focused MMO to have PvP in it?

Sovrath · May 2017

ZionBane said:

The title pretty much sums up the question.

What is the fixation with PvP players trying to get PvE players into their MMO's or wanting every PvE focused MMO to have PvP in it?

Well, that's not exactly fair. One could ask "why is it every pve player wants to do away with pvp in pvp focused mmo's.

I think, in the end, each player sees the potential for a concentration of their preferred playstyle in these games but then looks at the other side and sees it as ruining "a perfectly good game".

I should also add that good pvp players are more interested in good pvp fights and don't want to take out people who won't fight back as that is a bit boring.

BeansnBread · May 2017

ZionBane said:

The title pretty much sums up the question.

What is the fixation with PvP players trying to get PvE players into their MMO's or wanting every PvE focused MMO to have PvP in it?

You would first have to establish that PvP players want PvE players in their game.

TheScavenger · May 2017

BeansnBread said:

ZionBane said:

The title pretty much sums up the question.

What is the fixation with PvP players trying to get PvE players into their MMO's or wanting every PvE focused MMO to have PvP in it?

You would first have to establish that PvP players want PvE players in their game.

There are two kinds of PvPers

The typical one I see in WoW

"LOL I GANK YOU OVER AND OVER AS YOU QUEST AND I'm LEVEL 110 AND YOU ARE LEVEL 15. YOU ARE STUPID NOOB AND LEAVE THE GAME"

and one that wants actual skillful PvP, seen in games like EVE and Planetside 2

The first one actually wants PVErs to gank over and over with overpowered levels and items, and actually "like" PVErs in the game, because they are an easy target

The second one might be okay with PVErs, but really they want a PvP based atmosphere with like-minded people and want real PvP that takes actual skill. They might tolerate PVErs (like in EVE), but they don't expect the PVEr to cry if they get killed, because they know its a PvP based MMO (or planetside 2 is only PvP) and an expected part of the game, but really the MMO is a PvP based game and everyone is expected to accept that.

As just a couple examples of games.

BeansnBread · May 2017

I actually think that there are a lot of players in WoW that like competitive PvP based on the popularity or arenas and rated battlegrounds.

After everything you've said though, there is still the question: are there a lot of PvP players that WANT PvE players to be in their game? I'm not sure that's true.

ZionBane · May 2017

BeansnBread said:

ZionBane said:

The title pretty much sums up the question.

What is the fixation with PvP players trying to get PvE players into their MMO's or wanting every PvE focused MMO to have PvP in it?

You would first have to establish that PvP players want PvE players in their game.

Fair point, but with the many topics on this forum about why don't PvE's want to PvP.. it seems like there is distinctly a move by PvP players to want to sucker Entice PvE players into their PvP MMO's.

There is also this whole brow beating mentality among PvP'ers to say things like "Oh you don't PvP, you must suck at playing, go play Hello Kitty, you carebear" which of course, is a means to try and humiliate PvE players into trying PvP.

So why do they do this?

BeansnBread · May 2017

ZionBane said:

BeansnBread said:

ZionBane said:

The title pretty much sums up the question.

What is the fixation with PvP players trying to get PvE players into their MMO's or wanting every PvE focused MMO to have PvP in it?

You would first have to establish that PvP players want PvE players in their game.

Fair point, but with the many topics on this forum about why don't PvE's want to PvP.. it seems like there is distinctly a move by PvP players to want to sucker Entice PvE players into their PvP MMO's.

There is also this whole brow beating mentality among PvP'ers to say things like "Oh you don't PvP, you must suck at playing, go play Hello Kitty, you carebear" which of course, is a means to try and humiliate PvE players into trying PvP.

So why do they do this?

Yeah, I get your point. There does seem to be a lot of people that almost base their self worth on attacking the "carebears" and whatnot. It annoys me too just for the record.

ZionBane · May 2017

Sovrath said:

ZionBane said:

The title pretty much sums up the question.

What is the fixation with PvP players trying to get PvE players into their MMO's or wanting every PvE focused MMO to have PvP in it?

Well, that's not exactly fair. One could ask "why is it every pve player wants to do away with pvp in pvp focused mmo's.

As far as I see it, they don't seem to want anything to do with PvP Focused MMO's, they simply want good, fun, solid MMO's that are PvE focused, and by and large, would be more then happy if they never had to deal with PvP at all ever.

Unlike PvP players that seem to want to turn every MMO into a PvP game, or have to have some kind of PvP in it.

BeansnBread · May 2017

You know what I found strange? FFXIV PvP. That they introduced PvP to that game just made me confused. That is what I consider to be an extremely PvE based game. So why spend extra resources on creating a below average PvP experience when the fans of that game just want the best PvE possible?

ZionBane · May 2017

BeansnBread said:

You know what I found strange? FFXIV PvP. That they introduced PvP to that game just made me confused. That is what I consider to be an extremely PvE based game. So why spend extra resources on creating a below average PvP experience when the fans of that game just want the best PvE possible?

Exactly! You know this had to come about because PvP players wanted some kind of PvP in every single MMO out there. The question becomes, why?

There are many PvP Focused MMO's and now with MOBA's there is no shortage of PvP Challenge in the gaming arena's.. so why do PvP players feel that Every MMO should have to ave PvP in it, you don't see PvE players demanding mining nodes in MOBA's so they can PvE there..

TheScavenger · May 2017

ZionBane said:

BeansnBread said:

You know what I found strange? FFXIV PvP. That they introduced PvP to that game just made me confused. That is what I consider to be an extremely PvE based game. So why spend extra resources on creating a below average PvP experience when the fans of that game just want the best PvE possible?

Exactly! You know this had to come about because PvP players wanted some kind of PvP in every single MMO out there. The question becomes, why?

There are many PvP Focused MMO's and now with MOBA's there is no shortage of PvP Challenge in the gaming arena's.. so why do PvP players feel that Every MMO should have to ave PvP in it, you don't see PvE players demanding mining nodes in MOBA's so they can PvE there..

Its not just PvPers wanting PvP in every MMO.

I saw PVErs early on in Planetside2's release asking for PVE lol. No joke, if you went to the steam forums you'd have seen a bunch of threads "Is there PVE?" "please add PVE content" "there should be PVE for those who dont like PvP"

So its both sides, not just PvPers wanting PvP everywhere, but PVErs wanting PVE everywhere even if the game isn't suited for it.

Hatefull · May 2017

ZionBane said:

The title pretty much sums up the question.

What is the fixation with PvP players trying to get PvE players into their MMO's or wanting every PvE focused MMO to have PvP in it?

I don't and I don't. I am one pvp (I play all aspects of MMO's however, for this discussion I will speak to my PvP preferences) player that thinks games need to stop trying to be everything to everyone and focus more on one aspect.

I really do not enjoy hearing the non-stop complaining that takes place when a PvE focused player(s) gets stomped by a PvPer (or a group of) that is just playing the game in accordance with the rule set. I would rather have a small population of players that understand the rules and deal with the defeat as a common event and just move on having fun.

For the record, I also don't want to hear PvPers on a PvE server (or game) bitching about how boring it is, or making the snide carebear comments.

Play what you like, like what you play, and know what you signed up for. Go in with your eyes open.

all imo, obviously.

Sovrath · May 2017

ZionBane said:

Sovrath said:

ZionBane said:

The title pretty much sums up the question.

What is the fixation with PvP players trying to get PvE players into their MMO's or wanting every PvE focused MMO to have PvP in it?

Well, that's not exactly fair. One could ask "why is it every pve player wants to do away with pvp in pvp focused mmo's.

As far as I see it, they don't seem to want anything to do with PvP Focused MMO's, they simply want good, fun, solid MMO's that are PvE focused, and by and large, would be more then happy if they never had to deal with PvP at all ever.

Unlike PvP players that seem to want to turn every MMO into a PvP game, or have to have some kind of PvP in it.

But a lot of pvp players want nothing to do with pve. Heck, I remember some players grumbling in Lineage 2 during a raid that they hated it and just wanted it to end so they could go pvp.

So if "pvp players seem to want to turn every mmo into a pvp game" how is it that pve players don't want to turn pvp oriented games into pve games?

Black Desert? There are many pve players who want separate pve servers. Aion? Same thing, huge complaints. Archeage? Can't tell you how muc wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth when they had to deal with pvp players and wanted to turn off pvp.

It seems that it's just each side looking over at the other side and pointing fingers.

Lokero · May 2017

Simple answer is that no one wants to play an empty, dead game. Most players of any kind want their game to have healthy, robust population.

Another answer could be that it depends on the game. Purist PvP types may need PvE folks around for gathering, crafting, economics, etc., so that they can avoid all that PvE stuff.

cantankerousmage · May 2017

If you don't like PvP MMORPGs, don't play a PvP MMORPG

If you don't like PvP Servers, don't play on a PvP Server

If you don't like PvP/PvE MMORPGs, don't play a PvP/PvE MMORPG

If you only like PvE MMORPGs, just play a PvE MMORPG

I like PvP, but I don't like unbalanced, unfair, non-competitive PvP. I don't like dominating people who stand no chance against me. I don't like being dominated by people against whom I stand no chance. Therefore, I do not play PvP in MMORPGs.

Why? Because a system designed for PvE will never produce a balanced, fair, competitive PvP game.

There are three things that absolutely do not work for PvP:

1. Vertical Level Progression

2. Unlimited/Infinite Vertical Gear Progression

3. Unlimited Stat, Skill, and Ability Progression

If a player can defeat or overpower someone just because he or she has played longer or paid more, it is not a PvP game. It is a gankfest.

Eskimz · May 2017

The best MMOrpgs I've ever played put their primary focus on PvE, in that their intention was on creating interesting worlds and mechanics to develop character identity and make players engaged in the universe. PvP comes afterwards, and this is coming from a diehard PvPer. Creating an interesting world is important to making the PvP feel relevant, otherwise why have PvP in an MMOrpg at all.

If you don't have that you basically just have a MOBA or lobby based PvP game. I think a healthy MMO is one that makes PvPers and PvEr's feel significant simultaneously.

Tsiya · May 2017

It's forum pvp.

BeansnBread · May 2017

Tsiya said:

It's forum pvp.

And you just lost, gopher.

free2play · May 2017

PvP players usually don't want PvE players or content in their game. PvP Devs do because while the PvP crowd is loud and proud, they are also out number 10,000 to 1 by PvE content players.

BeansnBread · May 2017

10,000 to 1... really...

ZionBane · May 2017

Sovrath said:

ZionBane said:

Sovrath said:

ZionBane said:

The title pretty much sums up the question.

What is the fixation with PvP players trying to get PvE players into their MMO's or wanting every PvE focused MMO to have PvP in it?

Well, that's not exactly fair. One could ask "why is it every pve player wants to do away with pvp in pvp focused mmo's.

As far as I see it, they don't seem to want anything to do with PvP Focused MMO's, they simply want good, fun, solid MMO's that are PvE focused, and by and large, would be more then happy if they never had to deal with PvP at all ever.

Unlike PvP players that seem to want to turn every MMO into a PvP game, or have to have some kind of PvP in it.

But a lot of pvp players want nothing to do with pve. Heck, I remember some players grumbling in Lineage 2 during a raid that they hated it and just wanted it to end so they could go pvp.

So of "pvp players seem to want to turn every mmo into a pvp game" how is it that pve players don't want to turn pvp oriented games into pve games?

Black Desert? There are many pve players who want separate pve servers. Aion? Same thing, huge complaints. Archeage? Can't tell you how muc wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth when they had to deal with pvp players and wanted to turn off pvp.

It seems that it's just each side looking over at the other side and pointing fingers.

To be fair, BDO suckers you in with 10 levels of Pure PvE Content, and does not make it very clear that it is a PvP game. BDO, is exactly the kind of trap I am talking about. Why make a game with a robust PvE element, it's stating is PvE focused, just to do a bait and switch and make it a PvP game.

Why would this be viewed as a good idea. case in point, Imagine if you played a MMO, it's PvP based game, like Albion, or Crowfall, and then.. BAM.. you hit 10th level, and you go from being a PvP Front Line Solder to an Engineer, and everything is now PvE, with very little PvP going on at all, its about crafting castle walls, and building siege engines for the new players to use.

Imagine how much that would suck... that is what BDO did to it's PvE players.

I think with that level of bait and switch, they have a right to gripe, but a bigger question would be, why would any gamer think that was a good idea?

cantankerousmage · May 2017

I have a question about GW2 Realm vs Realm PvP. What do you gain by winning a battle?

k61977 · May 2017

I would say it is more developers wanting more players and money, but the issue usually ends up that they end up screwing up one side if not both. It would be better for them to pick a style and go with it and stop trying to do it all. If you are going to make a PVE game make an awesome PVE experience and hell with any PVP at all. If you are going to make a PVP game make it about the PVP, not a gear treadmill and levels which are the main experience in a PVE game.

d_20 · May 2017

TheScavenger said:

The typical one I see in WoW

"LOL I GANK YOU OVER AND OVER AS YOU QUEST AND I'm LEVEL 110 AND YOU ARE LEVEL 15. YOU ARE STUPID NOOB AND LEAVE THE GAME"

Sad but true. However, these people all chose a pvp server. That's how it works, especially in WoW, so there's no reason to complain. Just roll a pve server and be done with it.

ZionBane · May 2017

cantankerousmage said:

I have a question about GW2 Realm vs Realm PvP. What do you gain by winning a battle?

No idea these days, haven't played in about a year, and they just did a revamp to WvW, so... I have no idea what they are offering now.

Zyerne · May 2017

Eskimz said:

The best MMOrpgs I've ever played put their primary focus on PvE, in that their intention was on creating interesting worlds and mechanics to develop character identity and make players engaged in the universe. PvP comes afterwards, and this is coming from a diehard PvPer. Creating an interesting world is important to making the PvP feel relevant, otherwise why have PvP in an MMOrpg at all.

If you don't have that you basically just have a MOBA or lobby based PvP game. I think a healthy MMO is one that makes PvPers and PvEr's feel significant simultaneously.

Basically this.

I'd label myself as a hardcore PvPer doing all the crazy PvP games like EVE, Planetside1/2, Shadowbane, UO, etc, etc. Though I've played just as many PvE only games that I've enjoyed.

In the end I think it's the RPG part of MMORPG that is most important and I feel something close to living and breathing worlds are the best implementation of this we can hope for at this point.

For this you need both sides of the coin. What kind of lore/world has something that prevents the guy that doesn't have from taking from the guy that does? If resources are supposed to be rare and or you manage across something others would covet, then for the world to seem somewhat real they need to be able to take their chances at coming after you for it. Same for if you do obnoxious stuff and or put someone else at risk, they should have the option of attacking you for it.

Pure PvE worlds are /fake/ in that they put this magical restriction that forces 99% of the worlds population to play nice with each others. There is little real about a world that can't interact in most ways it would interact if it were real.

On the other hand pure PvP games are /fake/ in a different way. They tend to be mere death-matches with meaningless objectives or land that you can claim as you own but not really make much use of other than putting up your house and to have another reason to fight. Why is my character so willing to fight and die over something so trivial?

No I don't want to mindlessly gank someone weaker than me, there is no point. In games like WoW where there was little reason to PvP other than the excitement of PvP itself I wouldn't target anything of less than equal level. On the other hand if you have a caravan of expensive resources running through my territory and I'm a bandit, you better expect that I will be coming for you and you hopefully were smart enough to have someone that can protect your investment and or be able to protect it yourself.

A living breathing world needs both conflict and cooperation and leaving all conflict up to NPC mobs and or all cooperation up to NPC mobs makes both worlds fake and mechanical.

My ideal world is where I could be something like law enforcement or bounty hunter as while I love PvP, I generally dislike targeting those unable to fight back. So my targets tend to be those looking for a fight themselves and it works out quite well for me to be going after pirates/bandits/pks/whatever while trying to protect a specific area. I'd be quite happy to fight for the peace that PvE people want to have in their lands but I need a living world to do such a thing. But what kind of world has such systems that actually work currently?

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