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Problem: Gear is the goal (Official Forum)
Adamantine
Member RarePosts: 5,093
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2398/a-problem-with-modern-mmo-s-gear-is-the-goal
I disagree that gear would be a "problem".
The goal in MMORPGs is *progress*. Which may or may not include gear. I think it should include gear - why rob yourself of another field of possible progress ? I fail to see how that would make the game better.
But one can also progress levels, skills, and abilities, possibly other fields (like crafting, harvest and diplomacy in Vanguard).
And of course there is also always the fluff - like the storytelling of a good questline, or working on your characters looks.
Personally I think its a good idea to give players many fields of progress, including fluff ones.
I disagree that gear would be a "problem".
The goal in MMORPGs is *progress*. Which may or may not include gear. I think it should include gear - why rob yourself of another field of possible progress ? I fail to see how that would make the game better.
But one can also progress levels, skills, and abilities, possibly other fields (like crafting, harvest and diplomacy in Vanguard).
And of course there is also always the fluff - like the storytelling of a good questline, or working on your characters looks.
Personally I think its a good idea to give players many fields of progress, including fluff ones.
Gearbased
- Gearbased MMORPGs - your preference ?72 votes
- Love em. I actively rather avoid MMORPGs without gear focus.33.33%
- Like em. To me its a disappointment if there is little gear focus.30.56%
- Neutral bout it. Dun care either way.16.67%
- Dislike em. I rather prefer something more skill based.18.06%
- Hate em. I dont want to play any gearbased MMORPGs at all.1.39%
- And what about crafting ?72 votes
- Love it. Actively avoid games without crafting.38.89%
- Like it. Bit of a disappointment if a game doesnt have it.41.67%
- Neutral. Whatever, man.12.50%
- Dislike it. I rather wouldnt want crafting, but I'll tolerate it.5.56%
- Hate it. Actively avoid games with crafting.1.39%
- Whats your priority with gear ?72 votes
- Stats Only. I want the best gear in the game for my character, no matter how it looks.44.44%
- Balanced. I will compromise a bit for looks, but not too big compromises.29.17%
- Looks. I will always prefer the best looking gear.4.17%
- Uniqueness. Actually I want to have my very own look.16.67%
- None. I hate the idea of specifically getting gear in the first place.5.56%
- Appearance slots ?72 votes
- Yes please !45.83%
- I prefer specialized appearance gear you have to get separately.1.39%
- I prefer crafters being able to tailor looks of gear.20.83%
- No you have to accept the looks of whatever gear you have.31.94%
Comments
Myself, I would prefer the character's base stats to be the main definition of the character, with gear adding very modest bonuses to stats, in the range of -2 to +2 for a specific stat (against a 1-100 stat scale). My attitude is 'the man is more important than his clothes'. My naked 95th level enchanter (EQ1) is about 1/4th of his clothed self.
I do *love* the VR forum's poll functionality, even if I might want some better options in the poll. This forum should be envious.
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Now if only we could get an editor that has all of the functionalities the old one had from a few years ago.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The real problem with mmorpgs is not progression, but that it's often too easily achieved.
If I remember right I think eqoa had a trial quest that needed to be completed. I believe it was called Trials of the King. Was a difficult group quest needed to continue leveling past 20 or something. Was great fun and a roadblock you needed to prepare for while leveling.
Furthermore, I like gear holes. For example, Anarchy ONline early on didn't guarantee the armors you're wearing would give you a balanced profile, meaning you were weak in some areas. Everquest similarly had effect holes where you might not have good haste or similar because you can't find the right slot or item. Everquest also had potential resistance/stat holes.
We're not all the same. Through the years I've come to understand probably 50% of players don't like what they term gear "grind". They also usually don't like inventory management.
Regarding appearance of items, I think it's fine to have crafters change it. Adding accessories, changing textures or colors is reasonable. However, I don't think cloth shirts should be able to resemble plate armor. It shouldn't stretch that far. While I know the existence of magic in an MMO means illusions can be cast, I also konw magic isn't infinite and therer'e rules.
Ultimately I think social appearance tabs will be the norm if they aren't already. I don't think you'll need to hunt for the right appearance, it'll be much more convenient than that. Similarly I think streamlined gear will also be the norm. Those of us who like the "gear grind" will have to turn to niche and indie MMO"s to get it.
I think the epic quests in Everquest were good. The probem was all the camping could be very grindy. That was however part of what made it epic. You had to commit yourself to doing it. It wasn't an illusion it did require effort.
Is there a way to make it epic without making it grindy or frustrating or similar? How can something be epic if everyone can do it easily? Should it require a group most of the time, some of the time, or none of the time? I think for Pantheon obviously any "epic" quests should require a group some of the time (and to finish).
Should everyone be doing AND completing their epics? Or should it be somethign only some of them complete? AKA this reminds me of the Jedi in SWG. At first it was almost impossible to reach, but they steadily made it easier until any player could make a Jedi in character creation. Do players or developers wnat it that way? That's how developers typically respond, but how many players REALLY want it that way? I guess things are only epic if it feels like it required effort to get? Of course that's entirely subjective and not epic by the judgment of the community.
This all goes back to everybody wanting to feel like a hero. Everyone saves the world. But it ends up being just a single player game. There's no other way without having large segments of angry and frustrated gamers.
Isn't that it though. We mostly play games to get away from the real world and be superhuman. The hero, the champion. REAL epicness and heroism isn't popularly fun, since it actually requires hard won skill and effort.
My point was not that grinding should be reduced, but that the reward system and way to achieve those rewards should vary as much as possible. That is the real issue. Maybe the reward we seek is not just an item. Maybe it's a title, ability or something else that grants us power. There should also be ways to obtain those things by doing something other than killing mobs. It shouldn't take any less commitment of time, but variety should exist. That is what a virtual world should be about. Forms of gameplay that appeal to different types of players, who together create the diversity one would expect to find in any "world".
This game will be the same. Whether or not you have items with small stat increase or large ones, the end result is the same. A linear based, gear orientated and group orientated game where the goal is to get to the end game, gear up and progress through raids.
That was EQ, that was Vanguard, and that will be Pantheon.
EVE was also good. I just hate raiding.
When we in real life progress it is not about our gear,we progress as a person and sometimes it can't even be measured.
Gear or items is a RESULT of our progression,it is not "the" progression.
I find most games lack terribly in character progression,usually it is as simple as just levels speeding towards some end game looting grind,in reality NOTHING to do with role playing or being part of a mmo world,more like a bunch of mini games.
The EQ franchise NEVER "got it"that is why even when Brad says he plans on making a game "that makes sense" i still worry it will be Everquest/Vanguard 3.0.
The good news is that MOST games look like pathetic designs from the very first minute,so i feel Brad will at least build something that will have us wanting to look further.
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Now you say " that's not good ", but pondering these two sayings for years, and hate to say it but it's true.
You need many variables for a reason to play and press on in an mmo or any game. Without going deep you need GEAR TOO.
When playing a Rogue in Vanilla World of Warcraft, it's a must to do two actions to get daggers.
1) Shadowfang Keep end boss 30% chance of dropping a Dagger.
2) A quest line to kill all bosses in Scarlet Monastery to get a Dagger.
Without goals, I wouldn't be playing..... Most new mmos have no goals.
A dig because I'm not playing BDO. Well, you dont need to play to know it's a cash shop game and 2 year old's easy combat !.... This is what reviews are for
Do you play with dog doo doo because it's a nice shade of brown ?
He never said that the Gear should not be the focus, but that it shouldn't be the "main" focus, big difference.
He gave a perfect example of what he meant.
In EQ players main focus was to defeat the next big Boss, and Gear progression was part of the process in order to achieve that.
In modern MMOs people focus is to get the best looking/powerful gear to show off.
That's what he says, in fact he thinks Gear should be important.
Basically what I think he is saying is than in older MMOS players needed the Gear in order to defeat more difficult challenges while in modern MMOs players just want the Gear to look good or to show off, they don't necessarily want to play harder content with it, they just want to look as badass as they possibly can with minimum effort by doing the content that specifically reward that specific gear and bypassing/skipping/rushing any other content that they think is irrelevant to their goal.
And of course there are the intangibles, like learning the fights and how to better play the class.
There should be a ton of options in terms of improving oneself.
But when gear becomes the main way to empowering a character, gear becomes the focus.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I think gear should provide little more than AR and appearance options. Maybe some slight skill increase through augmentations. I am especially not fond of content being tied to gear scores and things like that. That just kills party options.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If you apply this meaning to horizontal, then nothing can be horizontal.
Dullahan gave an example of 2 lvl 60, one with basic Spells the other with high end Spells (Master Spells).
The point is that in this case you don't have to progress vertically in order to "unlock" the Master Spells, they are already unlocked, you just have to find them, this is horizontal content, if you find them you are more powerful than your fellow level 60, no leveling up is required.
As opposed to the usual system where in order to be more powerful than your fellow level 60, you have to achieve level 61 and get a new set of skills (automatically), which means every level 60 is equal skill wise and the only way to have an advantage over other players is leveling up.
I understand that horizontal progression is sometimes limited to broadening one's skillset rather than gaining any further strength. I don't personally subscribe to that definition though. If you're only gaining utility and not strength, you're probably not really progressing at all.