Because the internet is relatively anonymous and consequence free. Therefor people show their true nature, same reason people can drive like complete assholes because they are zipping away in their little bubble knowing no one can confront them. Most of those same people being assholes on the internet probably wouldn't do it in public.
I don't know where you're from, but in the country I live in half the population+ is toxic/apathetic to everything outside of their personal bubble and it's only getting worse. I'd assume this segment dominates the PC gaming segment as well. Couple this with anonymity and "freedom of speech (but don't punch me in the face bro)" and you'll get some pretty low brow behavior.
Here's the awesome part though. It's a game, IRL it's much worse. Blanket judging people based on their in-game behavior is peon logic. There's so much to go by publicly.
In the end, it's the job of game developers to curb our behaviors in game. We're mice in a maze.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
@Flyte27 - I understand what you're saying. That's one reason I don't like 90%+ combat-centered themeparks. I get rewarded and hailed as a hero for being a mercenary whose main purpose in life is murder and robbery. Now, there are times when the storyline and quests makes these actions seem necessary, as in during a war with evil humans or demihumans, but this is not always the case. And a lot of people don't even read the quests. In reality, the player is almost always motivated by personal progress/advancement and personal achievement. This is a problem. I didn't start playing mmorpgs because that's what I wanted. Single player and tabletop rpgs are not like that. (Okay, maybe some single player rpgs are like that.)
EDIT: Of course, there are times when my character is forced to kill because he gets attacked while traveling. But this is also because killing an opponent is the only way to win a battle. I can't knock mobs out, force them to surrender, or take them captive. Can't bribe, negotiate, or bargain either. And they never run away, even though they would have to know they're going to die if they keep fighting.
Post edited by Brald_Ironheart on
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@Kyleran - Intelligent psychopaths are often skilled at hiding their true nature. They learn to mimic normal human behavior. Sociopaths are usually less stable and more erratic than psychopaths.
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Having grown up in the 90s I don't recall many kids I played with in UO or EQ to be what you would consider a nice LAN party.
That's exactly what I was talking about. Face to face, at a LAN party, those people were nice. As soon as they were able to go online, anonymous behind their computer screen the other side of the world, they became assholes and cowards behind a screen. Curious, don't you think?
That is true, but it is also based on what is the norm in society. In the place I was growing up we often insulted each other and tried to show up one another through any means possible (dirty tactics), but it was considered fun to do so at that point. We were fairly used to it at the time. It seemed to be the social norm in most movies I watched. That is bad behavior, rudeness, and disregard for authority.
@Flyt27 - Monsters aren't innocent. If they were innocent, they wouldn't be monsters.
And, yes, as Venge SunSoar said, psychopaths are born that way, sociopaths are made that way.
I did not realize this, did a bit more high level reading and it appears if psychopaths can remain out of jail (93% are in jail per one source) they actually can be very successful people and smart enough to deceive everyone around them to their true nature.
Sociopaths have a much harder time being successful or detached so while remaining inside the boundaries more often are actually easier to spot and isolate.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Having grown up in the 90s I don't recall many kids I played with in UO or EQ to be what you would consider a nice LAN party.
That's exactly what I was talking about. Face to face, at a LAN party, those people were nice. As soon as they were able to go online, anonymous behind their computer screen the other side of the world, they became assholes and cowards behind a screen. Curious, don't you think?
That is true, but it is also based on what is the norm in society. In the place I was growing up we often insulted each other and tried to show up one another through any means possible (dirty tactics), but it was considered fun to do so at that point. We were fairly used to it at the time. It seemed to be the social norm in most movies I watched. That is bad behavior, rudeness, and disregard for authority.
something being the norm doesn't make it by default healthy, efficient use of resources or moral
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
@Flyte27 - I understand what you're saying. That's one reason I don't like 90%+ combat-centered themeparks. I get rewarded and hailed as a hero for being a mercenary whose main purpose in life is murder and robbery. Now, there are times when the storyline and quests makes these actions seem necessary, as in during a war with evil humans or demihumans, but this is not always the case. And a lot of people don't even read the quests. In reality, the player is almost always motivated by personal progress, personal achievement, and personal advancement. This is a problem. I didn't start playing mmorpgs because that's what I wanted. Single player and tabletop rpgs are not like that.
That is true. I think part of the reason I don't play MMOs anymore though is that this experience between the person and the NPCs is quite dull. There is something exciting about a dangerous world with people you can't trust. At least it's exciting when there are no consequences like in a video game. I feel like this was the footprint of fantasy movies that I grew up on. It was always an adventurer setting out into the dangerous world full of people you couldn't trust. There was often only a small group of people the hero could trust. If you can trust all the real people in the game that makes the game feel pretty dull to me. It is no longer a dangerous world.
I do agree that personal achievement often gets in the way of fun. I often race through games as I like to see the progression, but in reality, it's a waste of time to play that way.
@Flyt27 - Monsters aren't innocent. If they were innocent, they wouldn't be monsters.
And, yes, as Venge SunSoar said, psychopaths are born that way, sociopaths are made that way.
According to the people of this day and age where there is no black and white in anything, monsters will always have their own side to things and there is an innocent orc baby who's parent you just killed off. Basically, there are a lot of conflicting ideas in modern society, but one common theme is people overlooking the side of those that don't fit in with their idea of what a person should be or how a person should act.
@Flyte27 - I understand what you're saying. That's one reason I don't like 90%+ combat-centered themeparks. I get rewarded and hailed as a hero for being a mercenary whose main purpose in life is murder and robbery. Now, there are times when the storyline and quests makes these actions seem necessary, as in during a war with evil humans or demihumans, but this is not always the case. And a lot of people don't even read the quests. In reality, the player is almost always motivated by personal progress, personal achievement, and personal advancement. This is a problem. I didn't start playing mmorpgs because that's what I wanted. Single player and tabletop rpgs are not like that.
That is true. I think part of the reason I don't play MMOs anymore though is that this experience between the person and the NPCs is quite dull. There is something exciting about a dangerous world with people you can't trust. At least it's exciting when there are no consequences like in a video game. I feel like this was the footprint of fantasy movies that I grew up on. It was always an adventurer setting out into the dangerous world full of people you couldn't trust. There was often only a small group of people the hero could trust. If you can trust all the real people in the game that makes the game feel pretty dull to me. It is no longer a dangerous world.
I do agree that personal achievement often gets in the way of fun. I often race through games as I like to see the progression, but in reality, it's a waste of time to play that way.
so for the lack of a better word the 'socialization' aspect of MMOs and what makes that aspect so appealing is being surrounded by those you dont trust?
interesting...I think that is fine (well not really 'fine' but I undersatnd it) what your saying but I would not call it (and I know you didnt use this word) socializing just to be clear
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
@Flyte27 - I understand what you're saying. That's one reason I don't like 90%+ combat-centered themeparks. I get rewarded and hailed as a hero for being a mercenary whose main purpose in life is murder and robbery. Now, there are times when the storyline and quests makes these actions seem necessary, as in during a war with evil humans or demihumans, but this is not always the case. And a lot of people don't even read the quests. In reality, the player is almost always motivated by personal progress, personal achievement, and personal advancement. This is a problem. I didn't start playing mmorpgs because that's what I wanted. Single player and tabletop rpgs are not like that.
That is true. I think part of the reason I don't play MMOs anymore though is that this experience between the person and the NPCs is quite dull. There is something exciting about a dangerous world with people you can't trust. At least it's exciting when there are no consequences like in a video game. I feel like this was the footprint of fantasy movies that I grew up on. It was always an adventurer setting out into the dangerous world full of people you couldn't trust. There was often only a small group of people the hero could trust. If you can trust all the real people in the game that makes the game feel pretty dull to me. It is no longer a dangerous world.
I do agree that personal achievement often gets in the way of fun. I often race through games as I like to see the progression, but in reality, it's a waste of time to play that way.
so for the lack of a better word the 'socialization' aspect of MMOs and what makes that aspect so appealing is being surrounded by those you dont trust?
interesting...I think that is fine (well not really 'fine' but I undersatnd it) what your saying but I would not call it (and I know you didnt use this word) socializing just to be clear
Socializing can take different forms I suppose. I just don't see a game full of heroes as something interesting. Even if people were just role-playing villains it makes things more interesting IMO. It ad hears to the idea of a fantasy world is dangerous and cutthroat. It is like when I get nostalgic about EQ and people bringing trains on you, stealing your kills, tricking you in trades, or ninja looting, or just trash talking. It made the world feel like that dangerous place you envisioned from books or movies. Dangerous, but exciting.
@Flyte27 - I understand what you're saying. That's one reason I don't like 90%+ combat-centered themeparks. I get rewarded and hailed as a hero for being a mercenary whose main purpose in life is murder and robbery. Now, there are times when the storyline and quests makes these actions seem necessary, as in during a war with evil humans or demihumans, but this is not always the case. And a lot of people don't even read the quests. In reality, the player is almost always motivated by personal progress, personal achievement, and personal advancement. This is a problem. I didn't start playing mmorpgs because that's what I wanted. Single player and tabletop rpgs are not like that.
That is true. I think part of the reason I don't play MMOs anymore though is that this experience between the person and the NPCs is quite dull. There is something exciting about a dangerous world with people you can't trust. At least it's exciting when there are no consequences like in a video game. I feel like this was the footprint of fantasy movies that I grew up on. It was always an adventurer setting out into the dangerous world full of people you couldn't trust. There was often only a small group of people the hero could trust. If you can trust all the real people in the game that makes the game feel pretty dull to me. It is no longer a dangerous world.
I do agree that personal achievement often gets in the way of fun. I often race through games as I like to see the progression, but in reality, it's a waste of time to play that way.
so for the lack of a better word the 'socialization' aspect of MMOs and what makes that aspect so appealing is being surrounded by those you dont trust?
interesting...I think that is fine (well not really 'fine' but I undersatnd it) what your saying but I would not call it (and I know you didnt use this word) socializing just to be clear
Socializing can take different forms I suppose. I just don't see a game full of heroes as something interesting. Even if people were just role-playing villains it makes things more interesting IMO. It ad hears to the idea of a fantasy world is dangerous and cutthroat. It is like when I get nostalgic about EQ and people bringing trains on you, stealing your kills, tricking you in trades, or ninja looting, or just trash talking. It made the world feel like that dangerous place you envisioned from books or movies. Dangerous, but exciting.
let me state it in one line because your kind flipping around a bit (example, saying something isnt socializing doesnt mean its full of heros either)
Statement: 'you consider being in a crowd of people in which you can not trust anyone to be socialization'
yes you can argue it that it can be all you like and that is fine and I already know how you would do that, I am just saying you consider that statement i have in quotes to be accurate.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
@Flyte27 - I wouldn't mind playing in a dangerous world full of people I couldn't trust. But I would want that game to be a virtual world which allowed players to behave like psychopaths without any fear of consequence. That wouldn't really be a virtual world because the only world we know of is this one. There are laws and criminal justice systems in every nation and tribe on earth. Rewards, consequences, and punishments may differ depending on the politics, religion, and culture of the nation or tribe, but they are always present in some form. Of course it may be easier to get away with murder in an realm or region that is generally more chaotic and evil than one which is generally more lawful and good, but there would still be consequences for killing or robbing the wrong person. A lawful evil society would be very strict about whom is allowed to kill or rob whom.
UO worked for awhile because MMORPGs were fairly new and people had very choices if they wanted to play an MMORPG. But you'll never get more than a small fraction of players to enjoy playing a game which has no law except the law of the jungle these days. Imho. Some players might enjoy being the police or anti-PKers in an MMORPG, but it will never work as well as some people might hope it will. Those don't actually live in the world and can be absent for any length of time or quit playing altogether. They also don't get paid to be the police. As soon as its no longer fun or enjoyable, why should they keep trying to defend those who can't defend themselves? Role-players might last longer, but the game really has to reward and incentivize role-playing for the role-players to truly enjoy it long term.
I'm not saying you can't make a good MMORPG PVP game. I'm just saying that you can't make a good one the way most developers have tried to do so in the past. Well, if they were even trying to make it a good PVP game. I really don't know how much thought individual developers have put into their systems in the past.
Roleplayinn.com - New forum for people who love role-playing of all kinds - tabletop/pencil & paper, live-action, and role-playing in mmorpgs.
@Flyte27 - I wouldn't mind playing in a dangerous world full of people I couldn't trust. ..
to be clear I see the attraction in that I just would call that 'promoting socialization' and now anytime someone says that i am thinking now in that context. Not suggesting morality to it either way, just saying what I though previously to that statement is different then it is now
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
There are always people the heroes could trust in the best fantasy novels and movies though. Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Game of Thrones. Though there are less trustworthy people in Game of Thrones. The less trustworthy people who can be found in a story or a game, the more dangerous the world is. Trust and distrust of people can be subjective and situational, however.
Roleplayinn.com - New forum for people who love role-playing of all kinds - tabletop/pencil & paper, live-action, and role-playing in mmorpgs.
@SEANMCAD - Well, the world being more dangerous would encourage us to find and make friends whom we could trust. It might actually promote more socialization and building of communities. The real word is fairly dangerous and full of people we can't trust after all.
Roleplayinn.com - New forum for people who love role-playing of all kinds - tabletop/pencil & paper, live-action, and role-playing in mmorpgs.
@SEANMCAD - Well, the world being more dangerous would encourage us to find and make friends whom we could trust. It might actually promote more socialization and building of communities. The real word is fairly dangerous and full of people we can't trust after all.
thats kind of like when my dad said a world war might be good because it brings people together.
well anyway, at least I have a better understanding from others what they mean when they use the so called phrase 'encourage socialization' and I can tell you I dont want it BUT I do understand why some people do
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
@SEANMCAD - A dangerous world requires more cooperation than a safe one. If the game is set in a medieval fantasy world, for example, it would make sense for the world to be pretty dangerous. Medieval times on earth were fairly dangerous on this planet, and we didn't even have orcs and dragons. Or at least I don't think we did. That doesn't mean that there wouldn't be areas and times that were more safe than others. During the time that the Lord of the Rings takes place on Middle Earth, Rivendell is more safe than the Shire, the Shire is more safe than Bree, Bree is more safe than Rohan, Rohan is more safe than the border between Gondor and Mordor.
Post edited by Brald_Ironheart on
Roleplayinn.com - New forum for people who love role-playing of all kinds - tabletop/pencil & paper, live-action, and role-playing in mmorpgs.
its often why trying to subconsciously seek approval from ones boss is often a fruitless effort. Most people (including myself when I was young) fall into that trap that both sides is subconscious.
That said, I would take issue with the article calling that 'leadership' being a leader and being in a position of power over others is not always the same thing. leadership is more about motivating people but one could justifyably argue that is me focusing on the tree and not the forest
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Well, power can be in the form of knowledge or some other strong attribute. People won't usually, if ever, follow people they see as weak.
those two points are not really related.
leadership is not about power and its not even about knowledge, its a specific concrete skill set that involves motivating other people. its a skill in deployment and there are traits and specific actions that can be measured and put into a training manual on how to be a leader. MLK for example is a leader. Trump Jr. is an exmaple of somoene in power.
being a leader is different from being in charge.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
@SEANMCAD - A dangerous world requires more cooperation than a safe one. If the game is set in a medieval fantasy world, for example, it would make sense for the world to be pretty dangerous. Medieval times on earth were fairly dangerous on this planet, and we didn't even have orcs and dragons. Or at least I don't think we did. That doesn't mean that there wouldn't be areas and times that were more safe than others. During the time that the Lord of the Rings takes place on Middle Earth, Rivendell is more safe than the Shire, the Shire is more safe than Brie, Brie is more safe than Rohan, Rohan is more safe than the border between Gondor and Mordor.
Comments
Here's the awesome part though. It's a game, IRL it's much worse. Blanket judging people based on their in-game behavior is peon logic. There's so much to go by publicly.
In the end, it's the job of game developers to curb our behaviors in game. We're mice in a maze.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
EDIT: Of course, there are times when my character is forced to kill because he gets attacked while traveling. But this is also because killing an opponent is the only way to win a battle. I can't knock mobs out, force them to surrender, or take them captive. Can't bribe, negotiate, or bargain either. And they never run away, even though they would have to know they're going to die if they keep fighting.
I blame the millennials. lol
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
And, yes, as Venge SunSoar said, psychopaths are born that way, sociopaths are made that way.
Sociopaths have a much harder time being successful or detached so while remaining inside the boundaries more often are actually easier to spot and isolate.
Cool stuff...
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I do agree that personal achievement often gets in the way of fun. I often race through games as I like to see the progression, but in reality, it's a waste of time to play that way.
interesting...I think that is fine (well not really 'fine' but I undersatnd it) what your saying but I would not call it (and I know you didnt use this word) socializing just to be clear
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Statement:
'you consider being in a crowd of people in which you can not trust anyone to be socialization'
yes you can argue it that it can be all you like and that is fine and I already know how you would do that, I am just saying you consider that statement i have in quotes to be accurate.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
UO worked for awhile because MMORPGs were fairly new and people had very choices if they wanted to play an MMORPG. But you'll never get more than a small fraction of players to enjoy playing a game which has no law except the law of the jungle these days. Imho. Some players might enjoy being the police or anti-PKers in an MMORPG, but it will never work as well as some people might hope it will. Those don't actually live in the world and can be absent for any length of time or quit playing altogether. They also don't get paid to be the police. As soon as its no longer fun or enjoyable, why should they keep trying to defend those who can't defend themselves? Role-players might last longer, but the game really has to reward and incentivize role-playing for the role-players to truly enjoy it long term.
I'm not saying you can't make a good MMORPG PVP game. I'm just saying that you can't make a good one the way most developers have tried to do so in the past. Well, if they were even trying to make it a good PVP game. I really don't know how much thought individual developers have put into their systems in the past.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
well anyway, at least I have a better understanding from others what they mean when they use the so called phrase 'encourage socialization' and I can tell you I dont want it BUT I do understand why some people do
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
https://www.forbes.com/sites/victorlipman/2013/04/25/the-disturbing-link-between-psychopathy-and-leadership/#2ca930814104
its often why trying to subconsciously seek approval from ones boss is often a fruitless effort. Most people (including myself when I was young) fall into that trap that both sides is subconscious.
That said, I would take issue with the article calling that 'leadership' being a leader and being in a position of power over others is not always the same thing. leadership is more about motivating people but one could justifyably argue that is me focusing on the tree and not the forest
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
leadership is not about power and its not even about knowledge, its a specific concrete skill set that involves motivating other people. its a skill in deployment and there are traits and specific actions that can be measured and put into a training manual on how to be a leader. MLK for example is a leader. Trump Jr. is an exmaple of somoene in power.
being a leader is different from being in charge.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
That was really annoying me.