Oh yeah, their marketing is impressive. Of course, if you follow their history, it is obvious it wasn't originally a plan, they just jumped on and rode when the money started flowing. But boy, they sure did (and do) ride it....
Sadly, marketing and quality of production are not linked. Just think how far along SC would be if it had competent management!
If the marketing fails that means no money and without money you don't get any production - or a game (this being a games forum!) gets released early. And there are enough examples of those to know how they turn out.
That said a lot of SC's "marketing" has been to simply showcase what they are doing.
I also think people trolling SC has done wonders!
I don't believe anything they 'showcase', unless it is on the test servers. <snip>
A good policy. And it is the alpha that is showcasing the game. There are press releases and so forth and the monthly reports help since they show what they are workin on but the alpha is the showcase. The shop window.
Think back to WoW. Blizzard's beta was, imo, a major reason why the game was so sucessful. They (the EU beta had started prior to launch) were - essentially - open betas; not quite open since you had to sign up but 600k did so for the US one. And they ran for c. 10 months. And it generated momentum and - crucially - insulated the game when the initial 20 servers crashed and burned.
And the alpha - as I have said before - is a double edged sword. The current trials and tribulations around fixing bugs are there for all to see. No hiding the fact that they "failed" to accurately forcast when 3.0 will drop. Doubt that is comfortable. Especially as various magazines etc. have run articles on it. As it stands though what is in game that works is what is in the current version.
The upside - of course - will come when 3.0 is released. What people make of it is another matter but at that point people can re-assess.
Either way without marketing any product - not just game - is doomed to obscurity. There are different ways the message can be spread but marketing is essentially. Not sure whether winding up trolls and watching them go was deliberate but it certainly seems to be paying dividends.
Oh yeah, their marketing is impressive. Of course, if you follow their history, it is obvious it wasn't originally a plan, they just jumped on and rode when the money started flowing. But boy, they sure did (and do) ride it....
Sadly, marketing and quality of production are not linked. Just think how far along SC would be if it had competent management!
If the marketing fails that means no money and without money you don't get any production - or a game (this being a games forum!) gets released early. And there are enough examples of those to know how they turn out.
That said a lot of SC's "marketing" has been to simply showcase what they are doing.
I also think people trolling SC has done wonders!
I don't believe anything they 'showcase', unless it is on the test servers. <snip>
A good policy. And it is the alpha that is showcasing the game. There are press releases and so forth and the monthly reports help since they show what they are workin on but the alpha is the showcase. The shop window.
Think back to WoW. Blizzard's beta was, imo, a major reason why the game was so sucessful. They (the EU beta had started prior to launch) were - essentially - open betas; not quite open since you had to sign up but 600k did so for the US one. And they ran for c. 10 months. And it generated momentum and - crucially - insulated the game when the initial 20 servers crashed and burned.
And the alpha - as I have said before - is a double edged sword. The current trials and tribulations around fixing bugs are there for all to see. No hiding the fact that they "failed" to accurately forcast when 3.0 will drop. Doubt that is comfortable. Especially as various magazines etc. have run articles on it. As it stands though what is in game that works is what is in the current version.
The upside - of course - will come when 3.0 is released. What people make of it is another matter but at that point people can re-assess.
Either way without marketing any product - not just game - is doomed to obscurity. There are different ways the message can be spread but marketing is essentially. Not sure whether winding up trolls and watching them go was deliberate but it certainly seems to be paying dividends.
I'd say the WoW success was due to them bringing along a huge fanbase from their other games. Now you could say that Roberts has done that as well. Probably a legit call. But not something he planned, just a groundswell that he rode well. Their established ability to engage the fanbase is impressive though. Hence all the ancillary showcases to help keep the dream alive. However, Roberts never produced a game without having someone over him. He hasn't produced a game, period, in 20 something years. And his management style evidently hasn't matured in that time either.
They've pretty much 'failed' at every forecast for SC, from the get go. Tons of historical precedence to that too, both with Digital Anvil, and even back to several Origin productions that were also years late. But apparently it doesn't stop Roberts from making those forecasts. Marketing and all.
Certainly 3.0 will be a benchmark for the development. Re-assessing then is perfectly appropriate. I'm certainly going to be comparing what they said they were going to deliver to what they actually do deliver. Reports from the test server.
I've never held the view that the game won't come out, just think that the wastage of money and resources are going to continue to be epic. For years.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
"After a solid week of bug fixing and triage, we are happy to report that the critical issue list for Star Citizen Alpha 3.0 Evocati is heading back in the right direction. Last week we reported that list had jumped up to 94 major bugs thanks to issues discovered during our Gamescom demos, but this week they received our full attention with a heavy dose of bugsmashing and were brought down to 76. Alongside the triage and bugfixing, we’ve continued to review key features (this week we tackled Comms and Missions), to consider any extra work needed, then we will update the plan for these features for delivery to Evocati, Public PTU, 3.0 LIve, and beyond, as necessary.
This burn down Evocati window is coming to a close soon. Even though this process can be a bit of a rollercoaster ride with crazy fluctuations, even day to day, we feel providing you with this sort of transparency in our development is something of value as you continue this journey with us. We’ll be back next week with further updates as we draw ever closer to 3.0’s unveiling for all our backers."
On the last ATV they made one review to focus the Evocati release sooner than later, having lowered the need for 26 bug-fixes until they make the first release.
More blocking bugs are still present, you can hear Erin Roberts plan on how they're going with it, releasing to Evocati sooner and go with bug-fix baches feature by feature after.
So the CIG plan is to release a buggy, hamstrung version missing a big chunk of the earlier proposed elements, so they can get it out just a year late?
Wouldn't be that much of a surprise to me.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
So the CIG plan is to release a buggy, hamstrung version missing a big chunk of the earlier proposed elements, so they can get it out just a year late?
Wouldn't be that much of a surprise to me.
I don't think it's missing, it's just stuff that isn't working until it is bug-fixed.
And it makes sense, after all, that's what the Evocati sign up for, literally working (literally) side by side with QA, under NDA. Literally, all builds that went through it had whole features or areas of the game lacking functionality, the process can take up to a month before it's out for the open PTU.
"This week we’ve got good news on the bug fixing front as we’ve taken a giant leap toward our objective of getting Star Citizen Alpha 3.0 into the hands of the Evocati. Last week’s report indicated a total of 76 must-fix issues and this week we are down to 26. While a number of these bugs were simply resolved due to the team’s usual endeavors, our directors reviews have been keenly focused on core player loops which has led to a redefinition of must-fix.
In short, we’ve decided that we need to get this into Evocati hands sooner rather than later. We are simply going to accept that there will still be additional issues to resolve, but we want your feedback now, so we have readjusted our numbers to reflect bugs that are blocking the core experience (gameplay loops, missions, commodities and shopping, to name a few). We want you traversing the universe, landing on planets and generally testing 3.0 while we continue to polish and bug fix more features that can then be passed along for testing. We can then prioritize any new issues that come up, but it will accelerate the process so we can advance 3.0 much quicker to the PU and ultimately to our entire player base. We’ll be back next week with another update on how we’re doing.."
So the CIG plan is to release a buggy, hamstrung version missing a big chunk of the earlier proposed elements, so they can get it out just a year late?
Wouldn't be that much of a surprise to me.
Evocati is not the real release yet, it's just a start of another testing phase.
I suspect my take is still likely to be the final case, but point taken on Evocati testing.
It's nothing but what happened during previous Evocati builds, getting the first build it's mostly more incomplete and it they update it with passes to get more stuff fixed and working.
For example, in 2.6 Evocati Star Marine wasn't in the build at first, but obviously in the final release.
LOL I want everyone to go back and read the first page of this thread. Of course the OP has been edited several times and the latest was on Sept 15. But look at the release dates quoted by the defenders.
So they make out a fancy report with more bells and whistles (their specialty) in April. With weekly updates and a schedule and all sorts of 'official' looking progress reports.
Now what 5 months later that is all scrapped (again) and that schedule people swore up and down was going to valid has been rendered moot.
The more things change the more they stay the same. I have been completely off the grid since Memorial day and I come back and its like a broken record with this project.
Then of course sprinkle in the rumors, the fake news and the verifiable facts and it hasnt changed one iota, except of course that the amount of money they have (allegedly) raised continues to grow. Which is amazing but still not enough to preclude them from borrowing money against themselves.
Never change CiG never change, and there is really no worry of that thats for sure.
Here's a simple translation of the 3.0/17 schedule organized per deadlines:
It shows more clearly the feature-list of 3.0 (by end of June deadlines), and then what is the stuff to be worked right after that will drive 3.1.
By its future deadlines, 3.1 would aim its release at the end of August. Now considering the reality of delays I would put 3.0 at late August/September instead, what still gives a chance of 3.1 at the end of the year.
But then after releasing one major update as 3.0, 3.1 might be heavy on stability/bug-fixing instead of new features.
quoting this for frame of reference and in case that nice colored listed gets deleted somehow
But I will admit I was 100% wrong on one point I have made and shame on me for it. I said they would definitely release something in June and call it 3.0 unfortunately they couldnt even bring themselves to do that. Not sure if that means they didnt have anything they could pawn off as a 'major' update or theyre really trying ot get something that works.
Afterall 3.0 is now being described as early access or whatever semantics theyre using these days. So they have now gone all in on it I guess so theyre gambling that this is it. Or of course they can make up another list of reasons why they cant do it and look for even more funding.
quoting this for frame of reference and in case that nice colored listed gets deleted somehow
lol, why would it?
Actually, my estimate was pretty close months ago, late August/September, seeing the bug-fixing process now the Evocati might start this month, or not, even so, the release can be 1-2 months past that.
Just reviewed the first 3.0 Schedule with the last one and see the relevant differences in terms of features:
Rotating and Orbiting Planets - new
Basic Ship Security - new
Space Landscaping - new
Race Tracks on Planets - new
Delta Patcher - new (stated in)
HINT SYSTEM - new
HEAVY ARMOUR FOR STAR MARINE - new
IMPROVED LIGHTING FOR FOG TECH - new
COCKPIT EXPERIENCE - new
VEHICLE CUSTOMIZER APP - new
SHIP SELECTOR APP & INSURANCE CLAIM - new
INHABITED DERELICT SHIP SITES - new
ROVER AND DRAGONFLY (NOX?) IN SHIPS - new
IFCS PERFORMANCE IMPROVEMENTS - new
ASTEROID PHYSICS - new
EXPOSURE IMPROVEMENTS - new
PERSISTENT DATA REFACTOR - new
RSI AURORA - new
KLAUS AND WERNER ARCLIGHT PISTOL / GEMINI L86 PISTOL / BEHRING P4-AR
NOX - new (stated in)
And 1 cut:
NETWORK BIND/UNBIND - removed
Safe to assume other features have been facing scope changes since they started dev, as the Mission system (procedural one I think) stating addition of new mission types and such.
quoting this for frame of reference and in case that nice colored listed gets deleted somehow
lol, why would it?
Actually, my estimate was pretty close months ago, late August/September, seeing the bug-fixing process now the Evocati might start this month, or not, even so, the release can be 1-2 months past that.
Seriously? So you estimated they would be 3 months delayed and if its delayed another 3 months (and that is probably generous) youre talking 6 months with a fraction of the things listed.
Go through the colored list I quoted and see how many things are done. I dont know I havent been around but I am willing to bet 50% or more arent done and wont be implemented in whatever they put out (whenever they actually do put it out).
So like I said its more of the same old same old, more missed deadlines and need for more funding.
Where is all that stuff they showed at the conventions a year ago? The stuff I said was fake, and people claimed was ready to roll? Not to mention SQ 42 or planets o r any of the others things showcased almost (and in some cases more) than a year ago and have yet not seen the light of day beyond their closed system (video machine generated) demos.
Just reviewed the first 3.0 Schedule with the last one and see the relevant differences in terms of features:
Rotating and Orbiting Planets - new
Basic Ship Security - new
Space Landscaping - new
Race Tracks on Planets - new
Delta Patcher - new (stated in)
HINT SYSTEM - new
HEAVY ARMOUR FOR STAR MARINE - new
IMPROVED LIGHTING FOR FOG TECH - new
COCKPIT EXPERIENCE - new
VEHICLE CUSTOMIZER APP - new
SHIP SELECTOR APP & INSURANCE CLAIM - new
INHABITED DERELICT SHIP SITES - new
ROVER AND DRAGONFLY (NOX?) IN SHIPS - new
IFCS PERFORMANCE IMPROVEMENTS - new
ASTEROID PHYSICS - new
EXPOSURE IMPROVEMENTS - new
PERSISTENT DATA REFACTOR - new
RSI AURORA - new
KLAUS AND WERNER ARCLIGHT PISTOL / GEMINI L86 PISTOL / BEHRING P4-AR
NOX - new (stated in)
And 1 cut:
NETWORK BIND/UNBIND - removed
Safe to assume other features have been facing scope changes since they started dev, as the Mission system (procedural one I think) stating addition of new mission types and such.
You still dont get it. They keep adding new stuff when they cant finish the stuff they promised. thats the oldest trick in the book, bait and switch or sell up. Pick one. Why are they changing something they were so confident in back 6 months ago?
Hey iof they were actually on schedule and doing the ORIGINAL, sure go for it add the new stuff. but they are and they cant they just add that new stuff to give them excuses as to why they havent finished the original stuff and the defenders refuse to see reality.
Its like having your wife who weighed 110 lbs when you were married balloon up to 185 and then say she cant lose any weight until she tops 200 lbs. It just doenst compute to anyone with common sense.
Where is all that stuff they showed at the conventions a year ago? The stuff I said was fake, and people claimed was ready to roll? Not to mention SQ 42 or planets o r any of the others things showcased almost (and in some cases more) than a year ago and have yet not seen the light of day beyond their closed system (video machine generated) demos.
Don't worry, early access is starting soon ^_^ I'm sure it'll have.... EVERYTHING
Go through the colored list I quoted and see how many things are done. I dont know I havent been around but I am willing to bet 50% or more arent done and wont be implemented in whatever they put out (whenever they actually do put it out).
The large majority of the 3.0 features are finished, I think 7 open tasks remain. The rest is bug-fixing and getting past the blockers of the build to start Evocati.
The list you quoted is not specific to 3.0, is a global list of stuff that already went up and through 2018 early this year.
Go through the colored list I quoted and see how many things are done. I dont know I havent been around but I am willing to bet 50% or more arent done and wont be implemented in whatever they put out (whenever they actually do put it out).
The list you quoted is not specific to 3.0, is a global list of stuff that already went up and through 2018 early this year.
Ya can't be serious, it is named as that yet when posted pretty clearly specified it was the whole thing.
Or you are trolling, or some pretty heavy taint in your glasses to be that selective.
The colored report thing with all the dates was clearly made to show a time table, and it was clearly made to appease people who want tyo know whats going on.
Regardless of another semantics argument that the defenders always play when something doesnt get done the way it was supposed to get done it still shows that despite (another) line in the sand type announcement CiG failed miserably to deliver even a portion of what they claimed they would.
Remember when they went to Amazon (secretly) over a year ago? And the announcements were made that all the work would speed up? And how that now (and now was over 6 months ago) that all the base and core foundations were in place it had become a simple matter of plug and play? Remember those? So what happened?
The defenders claimed they were done or nearly done reinventing the wheel and had (at that point) begun actually making the game itself and not the skeleton.Despite any actual facts to back it up.
Yet here we are months after these announcements, a year and more after the convention season last year where they rolled out all those (fake) videos (and new ships and worms and planets and whatever else they could think of to excite people) and there hasnt even been a major update to the test bed. Yet everyone back then was claiming some of what was shown would be delivered in Dec (yeah we all know everyone now claims that wasnt the case) But I suspect most people figured something would be delivered by now.
Either way I am about done with this one too since it is, as I said more of the same old same old. And no matter how much I type or what history I pull back up and what quotes people have said themselves nothing is going or convince anyone that this thing is no where close to being released in any way shape or form. And it will as I have said for about 3 years now be one of those grand money makers that will be in perpetual development.
I do think they started out thinking they could make it, but I dont think it took them long to realize they couldnt. They have now spent 3 years collecting and collecting with not much delivering. I suppose when it all blows up CR et al will use the George Lucas excuse and claim they were waiting for technology to catch up with their vision....which in this case it never will.
Comments
A good policy. And it is the alpha that is showcasing the game. There are press releases and so forth and the monthly reports help since they show what they are workin on but the alpha is the showcase. The shop window.
Think back to WoW. Blizzard's beta was, imo, a major reason why the game was so sucessful. They (the EU beta had started prior to launch) were - essentially - open betas; not quite open since you had to sign up but 600k did so for the US one. And they ran for c. 10 months. And it generated momentum and - crucially - insulated the game when the initial 20 servers crashed and burned.
And the alpha - as I have said before - is a double edged sword. The current trials and tribulations around fixing bugs are there for all to see. No hiding the fact that they "failed" to accurately forcast when 3.0 will drop. Doubt that is comfortable. Especially as various magazines etc. have run articles on it. As it stands though what is in game that works is what is in the current version.
The upside - of course - will come when 3.0 is released. What people make of it is another matter but at that point people can re-assess.
Either way without marketing any product - not just game - is doomed to obscurity. There are different ways the message can be spread but marketing is essentially. Not sure whether winding up trolls and watching them go was deliberate but it certainly seems to be paying dividends.
They've pretty much 'failed' at every forecast for SC, from the get go. Tons of historical precedence to that too, both with Digital Anvil, and even back to several Origin productions that were also years late. But apparently it doesn't stop Roberts from making those forecasts. Marketing and all.
Certainly 3.0 will be a benchmark for the development. Re-assessing then is perfectly appropriate. I'm certainly going to be comparing what they said they were going to deliver to what they actually do deliver. Reports from the test server.
I've never held the view that the game won't come out, just think that the wastage of money and resources are going to continue to be epic. For years.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Diffchecker: https://www.diffchecker.com/yRJon1Ib
Burn Down, current status (Weekly Update):
Burn down video.
The number of issues is down from 94 to 76. (resolved issues changelog in the schedule page itself)
Completed this past week:
Resuming last week:
- 0 Completed Tasks
- 0 Delayed Tasks
- 3 TBD
- A total of 7 features left: 4 UI, 1 AI, 1 Gameplay and 1 PU Content.
More blocking bugs are still present, you can hear Erin Roberts plan on how they're going with it, releasing to Evocati sooner and go with bug-fix baches feature by feature after.
https://youtu.be/FhywXu8vsuM?t=8m22s
Wouldn't be that much of a surprise to me.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
And it makes sense, after all, that's what the Evocati sign up for, literally working (literally) side by side with QA, under NDA. Literally, all builds that went through it had whole features or areas of the game lacking functionality, the process can take up to a month before it's out for the open PTU.
Burn Down, current status (Weekly Update):
Burn down video.
Release is after Evocati testing and PTU testing.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
For example, in 2.6 Evocati Star Marine wasn't in the build at first, but obviously in the final release.
So they make out a fancy report with more bells and whistles (their specialty) in April. With weekly updates and a schedule and all sorts of 'official' looking progress reports.
Now what 5 months later that is all scrapped (again) and that schedule people swore up and down was going to valid has been rendered moot.
The more things change the more they stay the same. I have been completely off the grid since Memorial day and I come back and its like a broken record with this project.
Then of course sprinkle in the rumors, the fake news and the verifiable facts and it hasnt changed one iota, except of course that the amount of money they have (allegedly) raised continues to grow. Which is amazing but still not enough to preclude them from borrowing money against themselves.
Never change CiG never change, and there is really no worry of that thats for sure.
But I will admit I was 100% wrong on one point I have made and shame on me for it. I said they would definitely release something in June and call it 3.0 unfortunately they couldnt even bring themselves to do that. Not sure if that means they didnt have anything they could pawn off as a 'major' update or theyre really trying ot get something that works.
Afterall 3.0 is now being described as early access or whatever semantics theyre using these days. So they have now gone all in on it I guess so theyre gambling that this is it. Or of course they can make up another list of reasons why they cant do it and look for even more funding.
Actually, my estimate was pretty close months ago, late August/September, seeing the bug-fixing process now the Evocati might start this month, or not, even so, the release can be 1-2 months past that.
And 1 cut:
Safe to assume other features have been facing scope changes since they started dev, as the Mission system (procedural one I think) stating addition of new mission types and such.
Go through the colored list I quoted and see how many things are done. I dont know I havent been around but I am willing to bet 50% or more arent done and wont be implemented in whatever they put out (whenever they actually do put it out).
So like I said its more of the same old same old, more missed deadlines and need for more funding.
Where is all that stuff they showed at the conventions a year ago? The stuff I said was fake, and people claimed was ready to roll? Not to mention SQ 42 or planets o r any of the others things showcased almost (and in some cases more) than a year ago and have yet not seen the light of day beyond their closed system (video machine generated) demos.
Hey iof they were actually on schedule and doing the ORIGINAL, sure go for it add the new stuff. but they are and they cant they just add that new stuff to give them excuses as to why they havent finished the original stuff and the defenders refuse to see reality.
Its like having your wife who weighed 110 lbs when you were married balloon up to 185 and then say she cant lose any weight until she tops 200 lbs. It just doenst compute to anyone with common sense.
The rest is bug-fixing and getting past the blockers of the build to start Evocati.
The list you quoted is not specific to 3.0, is a global list of stuff that already went up and through 2018 early this year.
then why does it have in big bold letters...
3.0 Schedule Report Infographic
?Or you are trolling, or some pretty heavy taint in your glasses to be that selective.
Regardless of another semantics argument that the defenders always play when something doesnt get done the way it was supposed to get done it still shows that despite (another) line in the sand type announcement CiG failed miserably to deliver even a portion of what they claimed they would.
Remember when they went to Amazon (secretly) over a year ago? And the announcements were made that all the work would speed up? And how that now (and now was over 6 months ago) that all the base and core foundations were in place it had become a simple matter of plug and play? Remember those? So what happened?
The defenders claimed they were done or nearly done reinventing the wheel and had (at that point) begun actually making the game itself and not the skeleton.Despite any actual facts to back it up.
Yet here we are months after these announcements, a year and more after the convention season last year where they rolled out all those (fake) videos (and new ships and worms and planets and whatever else they could think of to excite people) and there hasnt even been a major update to the test bed. Yet everyone back then was claiming some of what was shown would be delivered in Dec (yeah we all know everyone now claims that wasnt the case) But I suspect most people figured something would be delivered by now.
Either way I am about done with this one too since it is, as I said more of the same old same old. And no matter how much I type or what history I pull back up and what quotes people have said themselves nothing is going or convince anyone that this thing is no where close to being released in any way shape or form. And it will as I have said for about 3 years now be one of those grand money makers that will be in perpetual development.
I do think they started out thinking they could make it, but I dont think it took them long to realize they couldnt. They have now spent 3 years collecting and collecting with not much delivering. I suppose when it all blows up CR et al will use the George Lucas excuse and claim they were waiting for technology to catch up with their vision....which in this case it never will.