“Problems cannot be solved with the same mind set that created them.” ― Albert Einstein
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Look see,take notice phase,expect another 10_ years before action is actually taken and enforced.
No matter what comes of this recent shotty business practices,expect no enforcement because there are lots of LAZY ass government employees sitting behind a desk doing nothing. Ideas have to be argued for years,then votes influenced by lobbyists,nothing meaningful gets done,just more stuff to read in the news.
THE BEST....people are asking for is the following
1. that minors cant activate lootboxes anymore than they cant activate porn 2. a help line
why do I think that is not really what posters here want even though that is what they are adovating.
What idiot thinks minors can't activate porn?
exactly my subtle point. People here are campagining hard to protect the childern from gambling as if that ever worked with porn
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Self regulation is always better, but the reason Quinlan is talking about this issue is that self regulation has failed. Gaming companies using cash shop and dlc's, pre-orders, kick starter, special editions, early start, selling land, you name it they have pushed the envelope and sold it.
They broke every principle of gaming that we had, and zero new regulation was brought in. They got away with it and so why not next try gambling? They got away with that in specific games so why not in every game?
Gambling and gaming are like chalk and cheese, stop turning our games into casinos.
Self regulation is always better, but the reason Quinlan is talking about this issue is that self regulation has failed. Gaming companies using cash shop and dlc's, pre-orders, kick starter, special editions, early start, selling land, you name it they have pushed the envelope and sold it.
They broke every principle of gaming that we had, and zero new regulation was brought in. They got away with it and so why not next try gambling? They got away with that in specific games so why not in every game?
Gambling and gaming are like chalk and cheese, stop turning our games into casinos.
hold the phone there buddy.
If you want to talk to someone who LOVES Kickstarters I am your guy. Some of my favorite games ever came from kickstarters and I enjoy the game, please stop trying to control me because you dont want to play kickstarter games.
man this is sooo much like book burning, censorship, 'rock and roll' and all that kinda stuff in a different skin
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
“Problems cannot be solved with the same mind set that created them.” ― Albert Einstein
It is the player base that must self regulate so that businesses match that need.
You mean something like voting for rules and regulations and enforcing them as a community? Yeah people should totally do something like that. But how? Hmmm.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
“Problems cannot be solved with the same mind set that created them.” ― Albert Einstein
It is the player base that must self regulate so that businesses match that need.
You mean something like voting for rules and regulations and enforcing them as a community? Yeah people should totally do something like that. But how? Hmmm.
Then actually make it a vote and not just some special interest regulation or the government may decide video games are bad also and regulate them in ways you do not like...
Common sense seems to not be needed here. People are stating this or stating that. I will not argue against people because "prove it" is not a viable response and "regulate yourself" is even worse.
I dislike loot boxes and always will unless free to get other than time. I would prefer to just pick what I am buying. I have also witnessed addictions in multiple people. I can see how the loot boxes can be a problem. I do think something needs to be done by governments.
Addiction is a real issue. Proof is easy and gambling addiction is not defined by receiving a monetary reward as the reward or loss is in the brain of the one addicted. People saying that people should take care of themselves or that they need proof and just sticking their heads in the sand about how the real world works while stating what a rational and logical society would be doing.
If there are predatory designs intended to trigger addictive behaviors then they run way deeper than "loot crates". A lot of game design is built around an operant conditioning system (skinner box) or similar carrot + chase scenarios. These by nature prey on addictive and obsessive personalities like the completionist.
The complaint about loot boxes is that they make apparent the revenue increase the publisher and studio is trying to obtain. The argument "play versus click to advance" is semantics. The framework of carrot and chase is still the same either way. Gamers are rebelling because what they got cheaply for $15/mo 20 years ago they'll now have to pay much more to acquire. It's an argument of greed not of being unsatisfied with the system.
When these are free with a sub or easy to acquire there is very little complaint. The complaint with BF2 distilled down into needing to pay a lot more to get it all within a reasonable amount of time (which is subjective but has some socially accepted norm to it).
Not wanting to pay more is reasonable if the value of the product doesn't meet wants. Not wanting to pay more in this game but not consistently applying that to all designs is inconsistent. You can't call something addictive and gambling but it's only a problem when it is presented as a loot box and not a boss chest. It's either predatory everywhere, or nowhere, but not halfway based on whether we're comfortable with the predatory design.
No, the argument of "play versus click to advance" is not semantics. That's very clear to anyone who makes an honest assessment of what, at its very root, video games are. They're timesinks, like all hobbies.
Simply purchasing the equipment bypasses the playing part to attempt to monetize these things as individual retail purchases. They are not the same as the items are only useful specifically in the context of the game itself. Without the game, they do not exist as products. Some of us would prefer we just get the content or item by participating in the hobby, not by opening our wallets over and over for the chance to get the content or item.
But hey, how's that fishing in the supermarket coming along? You get out there a few hours today to enjoy yourself?
“Problems cannot be solved with the same mind set that created them.” ― Albert Einstein
It is the player base that must self regulate so that businesses match that need.
You mean something like voting for rules and regulations and enforcing them as a community? Yeah people should totally do something like that. But how? Hmmm.
Then actually make it a vote and not just some special interest regulation or the government may decide video games are bad also and regulate them in ways you do not like...
and there is just one of my concerns.
absolutely if one can make the case that gambling is bad, one could make the case that video games are bad. and the more attention gamers draw toward gambling the more the general public are going to ask about violence. Because to people outside of this microscom of insanity most people are going to perk their ears when they hear a teenager can buy a game that is 100% about killing but they cant gamble in it
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Self regulation is always better, but the reason Quinlan is talking about this issue is that self regulation has failed. Gaming companies using cash shop and dlc's, pre-orders, kick starter, special editions, early start, selling land, you name it they have pushed the envelope and sold it.
They broke every principle of gaming that we had, and zero new regulation was brought in. They got away with it and so why not next try gambling? They got away with that in specific games so why not in every game?
Gambling and gaming are like chalk and cheese, stop turning our games into casinos.
And all that stuff is virtual, is 100% owned by the company you are "buying" it from and in most cases cannot be sold to anyone for real money. Charging you 1, 2, 3, 4x for stuff you never really own but just "rent" for an x period of time.
I think game companies should ditch the word "buy" all together. I consider any money I spend on any game I play a "Donation- an act or instance of presenting something as a gift, grant, or contribution".
"though both would prefer that the industry self-regulate"
What a laugh. That is like thinking that IP providers will "self regulate" if net neutrality is done away with. Comcast has already changed their pledge regarding net neutrality taking out the part of not throttling speeds or favoring sites over others. They did it the day after it came out that the FCC is thinking about getting rid of net neutrality. Do they really think that companies will not push it as far as they can until there is backlash again?
"though both would prefer that the industry self-regulate"
What a laugh. That is like thinking that IP providers will "self regulate" if net neutrality is done away with. Comcast has already changed their pledge regarding net neutrality taking out the part of not throttling speeds or favoring sites over others. They did it the day after it came out that the FCC is thinking about getting rid of net neutrality. Do they really think that companies will not push it as far as they can until there is backlash again?
But they've all pinky-promised to not take advantage. They can't break pinky-promises!
Self regulation is always better, but the reason Quinlan is talking about this issue is that self regulation has failed. Gaming companies using cash shop and dlc's, pre-orders, kick starter, special editions, early start, selling land, you name it they have pushed the envelope and sold it.
They broke every principle of gaming that we had, and zero new regulation was brought in. They got away with it and so why not next try gambling? They got away with that in specific games so why not in every game?
Gambling and gaming are like chalk and cheese, stop turning our games into casinos.
I don't really agree it failed, I think it's a matter of companies giving a certain segment exactly what they wanted. EA is kinda the exception to the rule. As they took it too far by pissing that segment off. You have to remember it's sales that drive these companies, if they're selling things, they think it works and is acceptable...
You also have to remember EA is just one company, their actions/mistakes don't represent the entire market.
Frenchie has been bringing up something about Activision, and some algorithm they've created, we'll see where that goes. They may just find themselves in EA's shoes with it.
In the end the consumer has the power to stop buying, maybe it's time they start doing that, because "self-regulating" relies heavily on that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Look see,take notice phase,expect another 10_ years before action is actually taken and enforced.
No matter what comes of this recent shotty business practices,expect no enforcement because there are lots of LAZY ass government employees sitting behind a desk doing nothing. Ideas have to be argued for years,then votes influenced by lobbyists,nothing meaningful gets done,just more stuff to read in the news.
THE BEST....people are asking for is the following
1. that minors cant activate lootboxes anymore than they cant activate porn 2. a help line
why do I think that is not really what posters here want even though that is what they are adovating.
Do they really think that companies will not push it as far as they can until there is backlash again?
Of course they will, but that's why backlash is important. As is speaking with your wallet. Companies are always driving close to the edge of the proverbial cliff in everything they do. At least when it comes to profiteering. That's business...
As I said above self regulating relies heavily on the consumer. It's not just the job of the company, that's what people don't seem to get here, because they make excuse after excuse for why they can't control themselves. But it's Star Wars, But I like MMOs. but I.... Well have fun getting fleeced if that's your level of control.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
At no point in human history where something has been asked to be self regulated, has it ever happened. Can you imagine a meeting where the CEO has to tell his employees to stop it, they are making too much money...lol.
Making too much money isn't a crime or a problem in itself. Our government (in the US) isn't in the habit of stepping in unless there is hard evidence they need to, not in the area of corporate profits, or free enterprise anyway.
When the government says self regulate, what they're really saying is take responsibility for your own life decisions. As well as take responsibility for your own problems (if you have a problem own it, and seek help, if a loved one does help them by convincing them to seek help).
It's highly improbable that stance will change unless real evidence is presented that this is a widespread problem, reddit threads and the like are not hard evidence. It's mostly sensationalizing TBH.
You're saying this (bolded part) as though these practices are not targeting a vulnerable population, children. This isn't a matter of simply gaining some self-control. This is a population that, for a majority, is not yet equipped to handle the predatory marketing being thrown at them.
As I said in another topic on this I'd have to see hard evidence of kids being the main partaker in this practice before I'd buy into that. Sure it works as a good sympathy angle to heighten the argument... but outside of that...
Kids don't have disposable income in most cases, I can't imagine most parents give their kids unsupervised access to spending on the net, especially in games. An isolated case here and there isn't proof of that. And if the parents are okay with it, who is anyone else to step in there?
We have all kinds of laws and regulations protecting children, despite the parents wishes. Why should this be different?
Because, as you point out, the government is already too involved in our personal lives. We don't need them "regulating" hobbies because a handful of people are offended by something and a few others lack self-control.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
So much is misunderstood about addiction and its so frustrating that how people will not listen to logic.
An addict can be addicted to TV!!!!! its not the substance that is addictive, its the person
I would recommend starting with someplace like this. https://www.asam.org/resources/definition-of-addiction If you can make these distinguished medical organizations listen to logic, then maybe they will change their definition of "Addiction" so we can all get this damned misinformation cleared up and move forward.
Do they really think that companies will not push it as far as they can until there is backlash again?
Of course they will, but that's why backlash is important. As is speaking with your wallet. Companies are always driving close to the edge of the proverbial cliff in everything they do. At least when it comes to profiteering. That's business...
As I said above self regulating relies heavily on the consumer. It's not just the job of the company, that's what people don't seem to get here, because they make excuse after excuse for why they can't control themselves. But it's Star Wars, But I like MMOs. but I.... Well have fun getting fleeced if that's your level of control.
Those loot boxes have the added benefit of making the majority of their money on a relatively small (but still significant) portion of the population. It's already an unequal situation due to the nature of the two bases, made more inequitable by the concentration of a large amount of the profits.
They don't need the playerbase in general to like them; they just need them to put up with them just enough that you don't have them run away wholesale. Sprinkle in the psychological tricks such as social proof (and exclusively leverage the most popular IPs), and consumers are at a distinct disadvantage in this proverbial scenario of yours.
So much is misunderstood about addiction and its so frustrating that how people will not listen to logic.
An addict can be addicted to TV!!!!! its not the substance that is addictive, its the person
I would recommend starting with someplace like this. https://www.asam.org/resources/definition-of-addiction If you can make these distinguished medical organizations listen to logic, then maybe they will change their definition of "Addiction" so we can all get this damned misinformation cleared up and move forward.
People really do need to learn what that means... Because they might then understand why they like certain types of games more than others. Blizzard produces the epitome of this psychological angle. Diablo isn't an extremely popular franchise by accident. The entire design is rooted in sensory overload. Every aspect is a constant dopamine release. Eating up your most valuable commodity.. Time....
MMO's have taken that farther by a matter of 10 fold.
This is why slower paced designs are far less popular.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So much is misunderstood about addiction and its so frustrating that how people will not listen to logic.
An addict can be addicted to TV!!!!! its not the substance that is addictive, its the person
I would recommend starting with someplace like this. https://www.asam.org/resources/definition-of-addiction If you can make these distinguished medical organizations listen to logic, then maybe they will change their definition of "Addiction" so we can all get this damned misinformation cleared up and move forward.
People really do need to learn what that means... Because they might then understand why they like certain types of games more than others. Blizzard produces the epitome of this psychological angle. Diablo isn't an extremely popular franchise by accident. The entire design is rooted in sensory overload. Every aspect is a constant dopamine release. Eating up your most valuable commodity.. Time....
MMO's have taken that farther by a matter of 10 fold.
This is why slower paced designs are far less popular.
It's a good thing passing time is the entire point of a hobby, then.
Do they really think that companies will not push it as far as they can until there is backlash again?
Of course they will, but that's why backlash is important. As is speaking with your wallet. Companies are always driving close to the edge of the proverbial cliff in everything they do. At least when it comes to profiteering. That's business...
As I said above self regulating relies heavily on the consumer. It's not just the job of the company, that's what people don't seem to get here, because they make excuse after excuse for why they can't control themselves. But it's Star Wars, But I like MMOs. but I.... Well have fun getting fleeced if that's your level of control.
Those loot boxes have the added benefit of making the majority of their money on a relatively small (but still significant) portion of the population. It's already an unequal situation due to the nature of the two bases, made more inequitable by the concentration of a large amount of the profits.
They don't need the playerbase in general to like them; they just need them to put up with them just enough that you don't have them run away wholesale. Sprinkle in the psychological tricks such as social proof (exclusively leverage the most popular IPs), and consumers are at a distinct disadvantage in this proverbial scenario of yours.
Scenario of mine? I am not alone in that belief by a long mile. That's the idea of capitalism in a nutshell. You support the products you want to succeed. That's the entire make up of it. That's the reality of it. It's people with actual problems who insert a personal scenario into it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Do they really think that companies will not push it as far as they can until there is backlash again?
Of course they will, but that's why backlash is important. As is speaking with your wallet. Companies are always driving close to the edge of the proverbial cliff in everything they do. At least when it comes to profiteering. That's business...
As I said above self regulating relies heavily on the consumer. It's not just the job of the company, that's what people don't seem to get here, because they make excuse after excuse for why they can't control themselves. But it's Star Wars, But I like MMOs. but I.... Well have fun getting fleeced if that's your level of control.
Those loot boxes have the added benefit of making the majority of their money on a relatively small (but still significant) portion of the population. It's already an unequal situation due to the nature of the two bases, made more inequitable by the concentration of a large amount of the profits.
They don't need the playerbase in general to like them; they just need them to put up with them just enough that you don't have them run away wholesale. Sprinkle in the psychological tricks such as social proof (exclusively leverage the most popular IPs), and consumers are at a distinct disadvantage in this proverbial scenario of yours.
Scenario of mine? I am not alone in that belief by a long mile. That's the idea of capitalism in a nutshell. You support the products you want to succeed. That's the entire make up of it. That's the reality of it. It's people with actual problems who insert a personal scenario into it.
It's a general principle that this system has set up to fool-proof itself against.
Capitalism as a general principle gave us monopolies. Capitalism without restraint or regulation is a trainwreck.
So much is misunderstood about addiction and its so frustrating that how people will not listen to logic.
An addict can be addicted to TV!!!!! its not the substance that is addictive, its the person
I would recommend starting with someplace like this. https://www.asam.org/resources/definition-of-addiction If you can make these distinguished medical organizations listen to logic, then maybe they will change their definition of "Addiction" so we can all get this damned misinformation cleared up and move forward.
People really do need to learn what that means... Because they might then understand why they like certain types of games more than others. Blizzard produces the epitome of this psychological angle. Diablo isn't an extremely popular franchise by accident. The entire design is rooted in sensory overload. Every aspect is a constant dopamine release. Eating up your most valuable commodity.. Time....
MMO's have taken that farther by a matter of 10 fold.
This is why slower paced designs are far less popular.
It's a good thing passing time is the entire point of a hobby, then.
Sure, however if we're speaking of perceived negative impact of loot boxes and their psychological influence. The point is very important. Because that's game design essentially. People need to be aware of it. And take care in how they approach it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So much is misunderstood about addiction and its so frustrating that how people will not listen to logic.
An addict can be addicted to TV!!!!! its not the substance that is addictive, its the person
I would recommend starting with someplace like this. https://www.asam.org/resources/definition-of-addiction If you can make these distinguished medical organizations listen to logic, then maybe they will change their definition of "Addiction" so we can all get this damned misinformation cleared up and move forward.
People really do need to learn what that means... Because they might then understand why they like certain types of games more than others. Blizzard produces the epitome of this psychological angle. Diablo isn't an extremely popular franchise by accident. The entire design is rooted in sensory overload. Every aspect is a constant dopamine release. Eating up your most valuable commodity.. Time....
MMO's have taken that farther by a matter of 10 fold.
This is why slower paced designs are far less popular.
It's a good thing passing time is the entire point of a hobby, then.
Sure, however if we're speaking of perceived negative impact of loot boxes and their psychological influence. The point is very important. Because that's game design essentially. People need to be aware of it. And take care in how they approach it.
Absolutely, but we're not talking about loot boxes leveraging time. It leverages only money. Incompatible with the nature of the point of engaging in the hobby.
Comments
“Problems cannot be solved with the same mind set that created them.” ― Albert Einstein
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
It is the player base that must self regulate so that businesses match that need.
They broke every principle of gaming that we had, and zero new regulation was brought in. They got away with it and so why not next try gambling? They got away with that in specific games so why not in every game?
Gambling and gaming are like chalk and cheese, stop turning our games into casinos.
If you want to talk to someone who LOVES Kickstarters I am your guy.
Some of my favorite games ever came from kickstarters and I enjoy the game, please stop trying to control me because you dont want to play kickstarter games.
man this is sooo much like book burning, censorship, 'rock and roll' and all that kinda stuff in a different skin
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Then actually make it a vote and not just some special interest regulation or the government may decide video games are bad also and regulate them in ways you do not like...
Simply purchasing the equipment bypasses the playing part to attempt to monetize these things as individual retail purchases. They are not the same as the items are only useful specifically in the context of the game itself. Without the game, they do not exist as products. Some of us would prefer we just get the content or item by participating in the hobby, not by opening our wallets over and over for the chance to get the content or item.
But hey, how's that fishing in the supermarket coming along? You get out there a few hours today to enjoy yourself?
absolutely if one can make the case that gambling is bad, one could make the case that video games are bad. and the more attention gamers draw toward gambling the more the general public are going to ask about violence. Because to people outside of this microscom of insanity most people are going to perk their ears when they hear a teenager can buy a game that is 100% about killing but they cant gamble in it
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I think game companies should ditch the word "buy" all together. I consider any money I spend on any game I play a "Donation- an act or instance of presenting something as a gift, grant, or contribution".
What a laugh. That is like thinking that IP providers will "self regulate" if net neutrality is done away with. Comcast has already changed their pledge regarding net neutrality taking out the part of not throttling speeds or favoring sites over others. They did it the day after it came out that the FCC is thinking about getting rid of net neutrality. Do they really think that companies will not push it as far as they can until there is backlash again?
You also have to remember EA is just one company, their actions/mistakes don't represent the entire market.
Frenchie has been bringing up something about Activision, and some algorithm they've created, we'll see where that goes. They may just find themselves in EA's shoes with it.
In the end the consumer has the power to stop buying, maybe it's time they start doing that, because "self-regulating" relies heavily on that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The box would include the costs of all the content at launch, the purchase website would be regularly updated. Besides, the days of box copies are coming to an end. There is no reason the information can't be available in real time on their website. Same for the odds of lootboxes. Simply give people the information to make rational and informed decisions.
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/470018/microtransactions-the-19-year-old-who-spent-13-000-mmorpg-com-news/p4#irIpmpkImRfTOZpr.99
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
As I said above self regulating relies heavily on the consumer. It's not just the job of the company, that's what people don't seem to get here, because they make excuse after excuse for why they can't control themselves. But it's Star Wars, But I like MMOs. but I.... Well have fun getting fleeced if that's your level of control.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Because, as you point out, the government is already too involved in our personal lives. We don't need them "regulating" hobbies because a handful of people are offended by something and a few others lack self-control.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
https://www.asam.org/resources/definition-of-addiction
If you can make these distinguished medical organizations listen to logic, then maybe they will change their definition of "Addiction" so we can all get this damned misinformation cleared up and move forward.
They don't need the playerbase in general to like them; they just need them to put up with them just enough that you don't have them run away wholesale. Sprinkle in the psychological tricks such as social proof (and exclusively leverage the most popular IPs), and consumers are at a distinct disadvantage in this proverbial scenario of yours.
MMO's have taken that farther by a matter of 10 fold.
This is why slower paced designs are far less popular.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Capitalism as a general principle gave us monopolies. Capitalism without restraint or regulation is a trainwreck.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson