I always figured it was for people that don't play the game regularly but want to do the latest xpac with their gaming friends and run raids till they bore of it. They'll pop back in when a new xpac is out. There's nothing wrong with that imo. It's not my thing, but visitors are good for revenue and the community.
I supposed I could use it on an alt if I didn't plan on leveling it all the way or it was casual side character. The only time I use level boosts are in Guild Wars 2. I get them on my character birthdays and bump up my alts with them. Levels don't feel like levels in GW2. It's more about unlocking points and stuff.
I don't think I've used them in any other mmo I've played that I remember anyway. I don't even typically use my XP boosts because that means my thing is done that much sooner. I do use crafting xp pots in games that have them because I can never keep my crafting level up and useful with my adventure level.
While that probably is true, most people that jump in each new expansion to play a couple of weeks with old friends already have a max level character since last time and even if they skipped the last time they could start a few days before the new expansion and quickly be into the action.
If friends recruit a new person they want to play with it would make more sense but it still kinda stupid since most of us that recruit a friend actually make a new toon and play it with him/her so he/she actually can play the toon right. Learni§ng up someone new with a max level char is a pain and they miss a lot of the best part of the game that way, particularly since leveling the 5 or at best 10 levels a new expansion have it usually done in days and having a noob in the endgame is painful for everyone involved.
I used my char ups in GW2 as well but since I already had one 80 in each class before even HoT released (I actually had 2 warriors and 2 rangers) it just gave me 2 different max level alts, and I would have skipped it altogether if it wasn't free and just played up the Rev.
Already there is going to be a certain portion of the player base that's perfectly fine going to a gold seller site or buying a horse off ebay from another player. Pay to win and pay for convenience happens wether the developer sanctions it or not. I would prefer the developer being the one making the money off the 'pay to whatever' because at least there's a chance that money will be reinvested in the game. Not so with the other vultures.
I would much prefer that developers instituted harsh RWT punishments and enforcements.
Look at it this way: if you found out there was an illegal arms smuggler operating somewhere in your town (but you don't know where exactly), would you prefer that the police start investigating and trying to find those responsible, or would you prefer that the government starts selling arms to gangs and cartels to drive the illegal smuggler out of business by offering legitimacy?
The end result of the developers turning a blind eye to RWT and the developers actively engaging in RWT is the same: RWT happens on as large scale. The only thing that stops or diminishes RWT (notice that I'm not saying illegal or unsanctioned RWT, as they are just distinctions without a real difference created by greedy developers/publishers) is the developers cracking down on it.
'harsh RWT punishments and enforcements'
They already have harsh punishments for it, in most games it's an instant ban, I don't know what you'd expect them to do, cut a hand off or what, but that's pretty much the extent of what they can actually do. It just isn't practical to 'enforce' it. If you just happen to catch someone doing it, or if they're dumb and get themselves caught, great. But developers can't really afford to spend money on staff to regularly check for this kind of thing, you have to rely on some sort of detection system and hope for the best. But regardless, it's not sufficient enough to deter the practice.
As for your analogy, that doesn't really work, on any level. Both of those things already do happen lol. The government already does sell arms to terrorist groups and cartels, at least in America they do. And there are plenty of illegal arms dealers that do the same thing. A better analogy would be the war on drugs. Hell yeah I'd rather the government control the drug trade and regulate it rather than encouraging murderous illegal immigrants to come into my country and set up shop and make bank off people's misery like sociopathic vampire pirates. Absolutely. There are thousands of reasons why this would be a preferable evil to what we currently have. And I'm generally a small government guy, but there some things that are so dangerous to the general populace that there is just no other clear answer.
Sadly though, until defeatist thinking like yours ceases in MMORPG players, we'll be stuck with having developers partaking in the action we didn't want to exist in the first place.
It's not my way of thinking that's encouraging the practice at all, I can only rationalize a design decision someone else is making. I already touched on this earlier in the thread. Are you the kind of person who rushes to end game at ludicrous speed? Answer yourself honestly. If the answer is yes, and there's a very high chance that is the case on average, then you're the problem. You're creating the climate where this kind of practice is highly desirable and profitable. It's really as simple as that tbh. I mostly just play Dark Souls type games these days. In these games the fights are urgent and impactful from the first stage on, and there is as much a sense of accomplishment from killing the third boss as there is the last.
That's exactly contrary to the way you probably want MMO's to be. You want dat endgame and quick smart. lol Well okay, so don't be surprised when they offer ways to make that easier for you, I guess. That's not defeatism, it's just logic. Whereas if my playstyle were influential to design, the developers would ask how they can make level 30 dungeons as worthwhile and engaging as level 50 dungeons. Less incentive to make it easier to skip over them with convenience items if it's one of the best parts of the game then huh?
Design should be the deterent, naivety isn't helping much.
It seems like you meant to respond to someone else - we were arguing about whether selling gold/items in the cash shop is a good thing. We were never talking about progression systems and playstyles.
You can't seperate the two. The reason why we have cash shops is because they're profitable, the reason why they're profitable is you've cultivated the landscape to incentivize vertical progression as fast as possible. There's basically one playstyle in MMO's these days. All a cash shop does is make that playstyle more accessible. That makes it an easy decision for developers to have a cash shop. If there were 20 different playstyles to worry about, it makes it much harder to just throw shit up for sale on the cash shop that's going to have mass appeal, they'd have to go back to doing their jobs and make some fucking content.
You obviously just want to lay everything at the foot of developers and say 'well cash shop/gold selling bad'. Okay, I'm sure that will be really convincing, rather than looking at the root of the problem and why these things exist in the first place.
Wow, way to move the goal post. You've realized that you were wrong but are refusing to admit it and instead starting a completely different argument. This is why I hate arguing on forums...
Regardlessly though, you're wrong again with this. As long as a game has trading, there will be people willing to pay real money for gold/items in-game. It doesn't matter if the game has vertical progression (where they'll buy raw power), horizontal progression (where they'll buy flexibility), or even no progression (where they'll buy cosmetics).
You can't seperate the two. The reason why we have cash shops is because they're profitable, the reason why they're profitable is you've cultivated the landscape to incentivize vertical progression as fast as possible. There's basically one playstyle in MMO's these days. All a cash shop does is make that playstyle more accessible. That makes it an easy decision for developers to have a cash shop. If there were 20 different playstyles to worry about, it makes it much harder to just throw shit up for sale on the cash shop that's going to have mass appeal, they'd have to go back to doing their jobs and make some fucking content.
You obviously just want to lay everything at the foot of developers and say 'well cash shop/gold selling bad'. Okay, I'm sure that will be really convincing, rather than looking at the root of the problem and why these things exist in the first place.
Wow, way to move the goal post. You've realized that you were wrong but are refusing to admit it and instead starting a completely different argument. This is why I hate arguing on forums...
Regardlessly though, you're wrong again with this. As long as a game has trading, there will be people willing to pay real money for gold/items in-game. It doesn't matter if the game has vertical progression (where they'll buy raw power), horizontal progression (where they'll buy flexibility), or even no progression (where they'll buy cosmetics).
It's hilarious that you're saying I was wrong, and your second paragraph here not only restates my initial point, that you can't stop people from RMT, I only went on to say that I don't blame developers for embracing it to a certain extent, but also renders your prior argument about 'enforcement and punishment' irrelevant because you're conceding that it's going to happen anyways as long as there is trading in the game.
I haven't moved the goal posts, I just have no interest in debating the merits of your idea that developers can in fact shut that shit down if they just put the effort into it. Because it's not realistic and I would prefer to not even acknowledge that argument because it's pretty embarassing to even talk about. It's like a 3 year olds reasoning that wars would just stop happening if people sat down and talked about things. Because it fundamentally ignores what we know about human beings and the subject matter, it's not worth talking about. So I shifted my focus from the effect to the cause, because that is something we actually can control to a certain extent.
Who is really at fault, the useless kid or the parents who are enablers and allow them to be useless? Gamers are the useless kid and developers are the enablers. You can feign ignorance all you want and avoid taking responsibility for your actions, as gamers, and just blame developers because they're supposed to know better than offer RMT when you're perfectly willing to pay for it. But that's bullshit, you know it's bullshit, and until you acknowledge that there isn't much to discuss.
Also, I don't see how people shifting focus in topics is a problem specific to game forums, like it's easier to get away with that tactic here or something. It's actually the opposite, it's much easier to put up that kind of a smoke screen in a verbal debate than it is a written one. Here there is a record of everything that's been said, it's pretty easy to go back and point that out, if that's the case, which it isn't. So I'm not really seeing your point.
You can't seperate the two. The reason why we have cash shops is because they're profitable, the reason why they're profitable is you've cultivated the landscape to incentivize vertical progression as fast as possible. There's basically one playstyle in MMO's these days. All a cash shop does is make that playstyle more accessible. That makes it an easy decision for developers to have a cash shop. If there were 20 different playstyles to worry about, it makes it much harder to just throw shit up for sale on the cash shop that's going to have mass appeal, they'd have to go back to doing their jobs and make some fucking content.
You obviously just want to lay everything at the foot of developers and say 'well cash shop/gold selling bad'. Okay, I'm sure that will be really convincing, rather than looking at the root of the problem and why these things exist in the first place.
Wow, way to move the goal post. You've realized that you were wrong but are refusing to admit it and instead starting a completely different argument. This is why I hate arguing on forums...
Regardlessly though, you're wrong again with this. As long as a game has trading, there will be people willing to pay real money for gold/items in-game. It doesn't matter if the game has vertical progression (where they'll buy raw power), horizontal progression (where they'll buy flexibility), or even no progression (where they'll buy cosmetics).
It's hilarious that you're saying I was wrong, and your second paragraph here not only restates my initial point, that you can't stop people from RMT, I only went on to say that I don't blame developers for embracing it to a certain extent, but also renders your prior argument about 'enforcement and punishment' irrelevant because you're conceding that it's going to happen anyways as long as there is trading in the game.
I haven't moved the goal posts, I just have no interest in debating the merits of your idea that developers can in fact shut that shit down if they just put the effort into it. Because it's not realistic and I would prefer to not even acknowledge that argument because it's pretty embarassing to even talk about. It's like a 3 year olds reasoning that wars would just stop happening if people sat down and talked about things. Because it fundamentally ignores what we know about human beings and the subject matter, it's not worth talking about. So I shifted my focus from the effect to the cause, because that is something we actually can control to a certain extent.
Who is really at fault, the useless kid or the parents who are enablers and allow them to be useless? Gamers are the useless kid and developers are the enablers. You can feign ignorance all you want and avoid taking responsibility for your actions, as gamers, and just blame developers because they're supposed to know better than offer RMT when you're perfectly willing to pay for it. But that's bullshit, you know it's bullshit, and until you acknowledge that there isn't much to discuss.
No, I'm saying that there will always be people willing to engage in RWT, not that it's unpreventable. It's the same way that there will always be people willing to go on a crime spree, but if you offer sufficient enforcement and punishment for such actions, crime sprees are preventable as long as the enforcement does not lapse (during a riot or blackout, for example).
You, however, have just contradicted yourself in saying that RWT will happen regardless of progression system. What happened to vertical progression being the great evil behind all RWT? Oh, that's right - you realized it was an indefensible position so you abandoned it.
No, you couldn't think of a counter-argument when you realized that you were wrong about enforcement and punishment being unfeasible.
You need to spend a few minutes sorting out your argument, because your incoherence and cognitive dissonance is frankly shocking.
As title says. Is pay for convenience the new pay to win? Many MMOs are offering advantages to skipping content, easier leveling, access to endgame year, great items/vehicles/ships/mounts etc.
Generally, yes. But that short answer isn't accurate presenting what I'm thinking.
I don't care about P2W. If people can burn $$$$$$ into a game, good for them. In fact I encourage them to do that, so I can play the game for free.
The problem comes, when developer decide to lock game mechanism & contents behind paywall. For example skill reset, inventory slot, costume, etc, AND not giving any alternative to acquire them in-game with in-game currency. Basically screwing free-players. That's what happening for most MMOs nowadays.
If those cash shop items can be reasonably acquired by just playing the game, and cash shop don't invade the game too much, I generally don't mind about it. But cash shop nowadays pretty much invade every possible game aspect... which is annoying.
You can't seperate the two. The reason why we have cash shops is because they're profitable, the reason why they're profitable is you've cultivated the landscape to incentivize vertical progression as fast as possible. There's basically one playstyle in MMO's these days. All a cash shop does is make that playstyle more accessible. That makes it an easy decision for developers to have a cash shop. If there were 20 different playstyles to worry about, it makes it much harder to just throw shit up for sale on the cash shop that's going to have mass appeal, they'd have to go back to doing their jobs and make some fucking content.
You obviously just want to lay everything at the foot of developers and say 'well cash shop/gold selling bad'. Okay, I'm sure that will be really convincing, rather than looking at the root of the problem and why these things exist in the first place.
Wow, way to move the goal post. You've realized that you were wrong but are refusing to admit it and instead starting a completely different argument. This is why I hate arguing on forums...
Regardlessly though, you're wrong again with this. As long as a game has trading, there will be people willing to pay real money for gold/items in-game. It doesn't matter if the game has vertical progression (where they'll buy raw power), horizontal progression (where they'll buy flexibility), or even no progression (where they'll buy cosmetics).
It's hilarious that you're saying I was wrong, and your second paragraph here not only restates my initial point, that you can't stop people from RMT, I only went on to say that I don't blame developers for embracing it to a certain extent, but also renders your prior argument about 'enforcement and punishment' irrelevant because you're conceding that it's going to happen anyways as long as there is trading in the game.
I haven't moved the goal posts, I just have no interest in debating the merits of your idea that developers can in fact shut that shit down if they just put the effort into it. Because it's not realistic and I would prefer to not even acknowledge that argument because it's pretty embarassing to even talk about. It's like a 3 year olds reasoning that wars would just stop happening if people sat down and talked about things. Because it fundamentally ignores what we know about human beings and the subject matter, it's not worth talking about. So I shifted my focus from the effect to the cause, because that is something we actually can control to a certain extent.
Who is really at fault, the useless kid or the parents who are enablers and allow them to be useless? Gamers are the useless kid and developers are the enablers. You can feign ignorance all you want and avoid taking responsibility for your actions, as gamers, and just blame developers because they're supposed to know better than offer RMT when you're perfectly willing to pay for it. But that's bullshit, you know it's bullshit, and until you acknowledge that there isn't much to discuss.
No, I'm saying that there will always be people willing to engage in RWT, not that it's unpreventable. It's the same way that there will always be people willing to go on a crime spree, but if you offer sufficient enforcement and punishment for such actions, crime sprees are preventable as long as the enforcement does not lapse (during a riot or blackout, for example).
You, however, have just contradicted yourself in saying that RWT will happen regardless of progression system. What happened to vertical progression being the great evil behind all RWT? Oh, that's right - you realized it was an indefensible position so you abandoned it.
No, you couldn't think of a counter-argument when you realized that you were wrong about enforcement and punishment being unfeasible.
You need to spend a few minutes sorting out your argument, because your incoherence and cognitive dissonance is frankly shocking.
It is unpreventable, period. The only thing you've said thus far that's anywhere close to addressing the issue is when you said that as long as their is trading in the game, there will be RMT. Eliminating trading still doesn't get it entirely out of the way or anything, people can still sell accounts, but it eliminates most of what people would bitch about at least.
Guess what, you just drove a massive truck through your own analogy that according to you I'm having so much trouble getting around. We have police, we have laws, and crime sprees still happen......just lol. Just like you can do both against RMT in an MMO and they both will still happen. The reason why I'm ignoring your reasoning, like I've already said, is not because it's rock solid, it's because you're deluded and I feel sorry for you. Present a better argument if you want me to acknowledge it, your reasoning thus far isn't even worth my time.
I never contradicted myself. RMT will always happen. I've never really said otherwise. What I've said is the environment in MMO design encourages it, and that design is based around the way people largely play the games. Gamers are obsessed with the idea of progression rather than depth. So you get what you wanted and the games are designed around that. If you want to foster an environment that does not actively encourage RMT, then focus more on the experience rather than having the latest and greatest as quickly and easily as possible. You've cultivated that environment for years through your gameplay, and you reap what you sow.
It's not possible for a 3rd party to sell you an experience outside the game, they can only sell you virtual posessions. By focusing more on the gameplay itself as the reward rather than the materialistic reward, you've already rendered most RMT redundant. Simple. And in my view also done your part to encourage meaningful game design.
I've never condracited that, you've never shown how that is wrong, you've just acted like a child without an argument and said repeatedly that I apparently know how wrong I am. lol Who are you trying to convince? I just defeated your paragraphs of ill advised analogies and tangents with one sentence earlier, if my reasoning is so bad you should be able to do the same I'd say. But you can't because to even consider that as a possibility already takes your blame game off of developers and forces you to examine your own behaviour. You can't do it because that's too uncomfortable, and that's fine. But next time you want to say that I believe I'm wrong, it'd be helpful if you'd at least go through the trouble of showing how I'm wrong first yourself, rather than cowering out of that and claiming to know the other person's thoughts like you're omnipotent, despite the fact you don't have an argument.
/waits for the massive amount of projection that will inevitably come as a response.
As title says. Is pay for convenience the new pay to win? Many MMOs are offering advantages to skipping content, easier leveling, access to endgame year, great items/vehicles/ships/mounts etc.
Generally, yes. But that short answer isn't accurate presenting what I'm thinking.
I don't care about P2W. If people can burn $$$$$$ into a game, good for them. In fact I encourage them to do that, so I can play the game for free.
The problem comes, when developer decide to lock game mechanism & contents behind paywall. For example skill reset, inventory slot, costume, etc, AND not giving any alternative to acquire them in-game with in-game currency. Basically screwing free-players. That's what happening for most MMOs nowadays.
If those cash shop items can be reasonably acquired by just playing the game, and cash shop don't invade the game too much, I generally don't mind about it. But cash shop nowadays pretty much invade every possible game aspect... which is annoying.
Do you believe that games should be totally free? That is what your post sounds like, and I wonder how you think games can be financed with a system like that. I'm all for F2P players being able to access all the content in the game, zones, levels, dungeons, gear etc... but things like skill resets, inventory slots, costumes and the like are perfectly reasonable to be behind a paywall in a F2P game.
As title says. Is pay for convenience the new pay to win? Many MMOs are offering advantages to skipping content, easier leveling, access to endgame year, great items/vehicles/ships/mounts etc.
Generally, yes. But that short answer isn't accurate presenting what I'm thinking.
I don't care about P2W. If people can burn $$$$$$ into a game, good for them. In fact I encourage them to do that, so I can play the game for free.
The problem comes, when developer decide to lock game mechanism & contents behind paywall. For example skill reset, inventory slot, costume, etc, AND not giving any alternative to acquire them in-game with in-game currency. Basically screwing free-players. That's what happening for most MMOs nowadays.
If those cash shop items can be reasonably acquired by just playing the game, and cash shop don't invade the game too much, I generally don't mind about it. But cash shop nowadays pretty much invade every possible game aspect... which is annoying.
I find that contradictory. P2W basically means predatory cash shop. So how can a game be P2W and have non invasive cashshop.
I didn't play many mmorpg but almost all of them I played give you a way to buy cash shop item with in game currency. You just have to grind it or buy from another player.
I have always said that I work in development. I have also always made it clear that I am not a game developer and have never been employed as a game developer, engineer, or tester. I have been invited to private testing before the whole EA/crowd-funding thing kicked off and I've been privy to NDA info from that perspective. I have friends and relatives that work in game development, mostly in art and design. I hope that clarifies any misconception I might have created or given in any past post.
Thank you, sir. That was a polite and upstanding reply (this is sincere). I appreciate this very much.
Stupid car analogy: Indy Race - 500 laps to finish (Don't care how many laps the real one is)
Pay to win - $$$ Engine upgrade makes car 30% faster Pay for Convenience - $$$ You start at lap 400 Microtransaction Cosmetics - Cool flaming rabbit paint job (Fosters reference)
... To me P2W and P4C are pretty much the same thing, just with a slight twist ...
I can't agree with this analogy. P4C would be more like you can get that same 30% upgrade but with a boost so it doesn't take as long to get as someone who doesn't pay at all. Keepin it real. Paying to start at lap 400 in a race to 500 is no different than p2w.
This isn't a problem in my opinion either. Studios want to get paid and relying solely on whales is a flawed business strategy.
Flawed? There are plenty of successful f2p games. What is the flaw? Are you disputing that whales exists and they pay their nose?
In fact, Star Citizen got whales to pay up to $150M even WITHOUT a finished game.
It is unpreventable, period. The only thing you've said thus far that's anywhere close to addressing the issue is when you said that as long as their is trading in the game, there will be RMT. Eliminating trading still doesn't get it entirely out of the way or anything, people can still sell accounts, but it eliminates most of what people would bitch about at least.
Guess what, you just drove a massive truck through your own analogy that according to you I'm having so much trouble getting around. We have police, we have laws, and crime sprees still happen......just lol. Just like you can do both against RMT in an MMO and they both will still happen. The reason why I'm ignoring your reasoning, like I've already said, is not because it's rock solid, it's because you're deluded and I feel sorry for you. Present a better argument if you want me to acknowledge it, your reasoning thus far isn't even worth my time.
I never contradicted myself. RMT will always happen. I've never really said otherwise. What I've said is the environment in MMO design encourages it, and that design is based around the way people largely play the games. Gamers are obsessed with the idea of progression rather than depth. So you get what you wanted and the games are designed around that. If you want to foster an environment that does not actively encourage RMT, then focus more on the experience rather than having the latest and greatest as quickly and easily as possible. You've cultivated that environment for years through your gameplay, and you reap what you sow.
It's not possible for a 3rd party to sell you an experience outside the game, they can only sell you virtual posessions. By focusing more on the gameplay itself as the reward rather than the materialistic reward, you've already rendered most RMT redundant. Simple. And in my view also done your part to encourage meaningful game design.
I've never condracited that, you've never shown how that is wrong, you've just acted like a child without an argument and said repeatedly that I apparently know how wrong I am. lol Who are you trying to convince? I just defeated your paragraphs of ill advised analogies and tangents with one sentence earlier, if my reasoning is so bad you should be able to do the same I'd say. But you can't because to even consider that as a possibility already takes your blame game off of developers and forces you to examine your own behaviour. You can't do it because that's too uncomfortable, and that's fine. But next time you want to say that I believe I'm wrong, it'd be helpful if you'd at least go through the trouble of showing how I'm wrong first yourself, rather than cowering out of that and claiming to know the other person's thoughts like you're omnipotent, despite the fact you don't have an argument.
/waits for the massive amount of projection that will inevitably come as a response.
1. Look at the difference in crime levels between a normal Monday evening and that same evening with a blackout. Just like in MMOs, there will still be a small minority of people who commit crimes (i.e. engage in RWT) regardlessly, but when you fail to properly enforce your laws a much larger amount of people will engage in crime because they cease fearing punishment.
2. So you're doing the exact same thing you go on to accuse me of doing. You lack a counterargument, so are just yelling 'deluded!' and hoping that gets you out of this. Don't think I didn't notice that you snipped out the entire portion of my reply in which I explain in detail a system that would significantly lower RWT rates because you had no response.
3. The problem is that you're acting like your solution is the only solution to the problem. Yes, what you're proposing would work for some people, but by shifting the focus of the game you're excluding the very large amount of MMO players for whom achievement is the most fun part of the game. There's a whole archetype of this player in Bartle's taxonomy: The Achiever. Your response to reducing RWT in a mainstream MMO is "can't be done. P2W only for achievers".
4. This entire argument started because you said that developers should sell items, gold, accounts, etc on the cash shop because unsanctioned RWTers are going to sell all that anyway and it's inevitable and unpreventable. I disagreed, saying that I would prefer developers to instead work on reducing RWT rather than partaking in RWT themselves. You said that this was impossible, I gave you a concrete suggestion for a possible RWT reduction mechanic. You ignored this and instead started blathering about how the onlyway to reduce RWT and its effects is shifting the design focus away from achievement. This is where you moved the goalposts.
5. You've shown yourself unable to properly conduct an argument, repeatedly nitpicking analogies rather than addressing the actual argument, in addition to moving the goalposts of the original argument out of simple pride. Reply to this if you need to for your ego, but know that I'm done with you.
Do you believe that games should be totally free? That is what your post sounds like, and I wonder how you think games can be financed with a system like that. I'm all for F2P players being able to access all the content in the game, zones, levels, dungeons, gear etc... but things like skill resets, inventory slots, costumes and the like are perfectly reasonable to be behind a paywall in a F2P game.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you.
I believe devs have the freedom to charge , or not charge, as they see fit. It is a free market after all.
So if devs want to fund their games with money from whales, and give the game away to most players, i don't see a problem. And it is also a free market so I can decide whether to play free or not.
Comments
What downward trend? Isn't overwatch doing well? Isn't warframe doing well? Even Destiny 2, which has end-game problems, seem to be dong well.
If friends recruit a new person they want to play with it would make more sense but it still kinda stupid since most of us that recruit a friend actually make a new toon and play it with him/her so he/she actually can play the toon right. Learni§ng up someone new with a max level char is a pain and they miss a lot of the best part of the game that way, particularly since leveling the 5 or at best 10 levels a new expansion have it usually done in days and having a noob in the endgame is painful for everyone involved.
I used my char ups in GW2 as well but since I already had one 80 in each class before even HoT released (I actually had 2 warriors and 2 rangers) it just gave me 2 different max level alts, and I would have skipped it altogether if it wasn't free and just played up the Rev.
Regardlessly though, you're wrong again with this. As long as a game has trading, there will be people willing to pay real money for gold/items in-game. It doesn't matter if the game has vertical progression (where they'll buy raw power), horizontal progression (where they'll buy flexibility), or even no progression (where they'll buy cosmetics).
I haven't moved the goal posts, I just have no interest in debating the merits of your idea that developers can in fact shut that shit down if they just put the effort into it. Because it's not realistic and I would prefer to not even acknowledge that argument because it's pretty embarassing to even talk about. It's like a 3 year olds reasoning that wars would just stop happening if people sat down and talked about things. Because it fundamentally ignores what we know about human beings and the subject matter, it's not worth talking about. So I shifted my focus from the effect to the cause, because that is something we actually can control to a certain extent.
Who is really at fault, the useless kid or the parents who are enablers and allow them to be useless? Gamers are the useless kid and developers are the enablers. You can feign ignorance all you want and avoid taking responsibility for your actions, as gamers, and just blame developers because they're supposed to know better than offer RMT when you're perfectly willing to pay for it. But that's bullshit, you know it's bullshit, and until you acknowledge that there isn't much to discuss.
Also, I don't see how people shifting focus in topics is a problem specific to game forums, like it's easier to get away with that tactic here or something. It's actually the opposite, it's much easier to put up that kind of a smoke screen in a verbal debate than it is a written one. Here there is a record of everything that's been said, it's pretty easy to go back and point that out, if that's the case, which it isn't. So I'm not really seeing your point.
You, however, have just contradicted yourself in saying that RWT will happen regardless of progression system. What happened to vertical progression being the great evil behind all RWT? Oh, that's right - you realized it was an indefensible position so you abandoned it.
No, you couldn't think of a counter-argument when you realized that you were wrong about enforcement and punishment being unfeasible.
You need to spend a few minutes sorting out your argument, because your incoherence and cognitive dissonance is frankly shocking.
Generally, yes. But that short answer isn't accurate presenting what I'm thinking.
I don't care about P2W. If people can burn $$$$$$ into a game, good for them. In fact I encourage them to do that, so I can play the game for free.
The problem comes, when developer decide to lock game mechanism & contents behind paywall. For example skill reset, inventory slot, costume, etc, AND not giving any alternative to acquire them in-game with in-game currency. Basically screwing free-players. That's what happening for most MMOs nowadays.
If those cash shop items can be reasonably acquired by just playing the game, and cash shop don't invade the game too much, I generally don't mind about it. But cash shop nowadays pretty much invade every possible game aspect... which is annoying.
Guess what, you just drove a massive truck through your own analogy that according to you I'm having so much trouble getting around. We have police, we have laws, and crime sprees still happen......just lol. Just like you can do both against RMT in an MMO and they both will still happen. The reason why I'm ignoring your reasoning, like I've already said, is not because it's rock solid, it's because you're deluded and I feel sorry for you. Present a better argument if you want me to acknowledge it, your reasoning thus far isn't even worth my time.
I never contradicted myself. RMT will always happen. I've never really said otherwise. What I've said is the environment in MMO design encourages it, and that design is based around the way people largely play the games. Gamers are obsessed with the idea of progression rather than depth. So you get what you wanted and the games are designed around that. If you want to foster an environment that does not actively encourage RMT, then focus more on the experience rather than having the latest and greatest as quickly and easily as possible. You've cultivated that environment for years through your gameplay, and you reap what you sow.
It's not possible for a 3rd party to sell you an experience outside the game, they can only sell you virtual posessions. By focusing more on the gameplay itself as the reward rather than the materialistic reward, you've already rendered most RMT redundant. Simple. And in my view also done your part to encourage meaningful game design.
I've never condracited that, you've never shown how that is wrong, you've just acted like a child without an argument and said repeatedly that I apparently know how wrong I am. lol Who are you trying to convince? I just defeated your paragraphs of ill advised analogies and tangents with one sentence earlier, if my reasoning is so bad you should be able to do the same I'd say. But you can't because to even consider that as a possibility already takes your blame game off of developers and forces you to examine your own behaviour. You can't do it because that's too uncomfortable, and that's fine. But next time you want to say that I believe I'm wrong, it'd be helpful if you'd at least go through the trouble of showing how I'm wrong first yourself, rather than cowering out of that and claiming to know the other person's thoughts like you're omnipotent, despite the fact you don't have an argument.
/waits for the massive amount of projection that will inevitably come as a response.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you.
I didn't play many mmorpg but almost all of them I played give you a way to buy cash shop item with in game currency. You just have to grind it or buy from another player.
I appreciate this very much.
Once upon a time....
I can't agree with this analogy. P4C would be more like you can get that same 30% upgrade but with a boost so it doesn't take as long to get as someone who doesn't pay at all. Keepin it real. Paying to start at lap 400 in a race to 500 is no different than p2w.
So you mean the board is missing all these successful games I mentioned? And how is the industry "collapsing" when it is actually growing?
http://www.texyon.com/newscorp/global-mmorpg-market
and i quote "Emerging markets take free-to-play MMO revenue up to a CAGR1 of 7.8% from 2016E to 2018E."
Is the market even close to $16.9B of f2p segment in 2000?
2. So you're doing the exact same thing you go on to accuse me of doing. You lack a counterargument, so are just yelling 'deluded!' and hoping that gets you out of this. Don't think I didn't notice that you snipped out the entire portion of my reply in which I explain in detail a system that would significantly lower RWT rates because you had no response.
3. The problem is that you're acting like your solution is the only solution to the problem. Yes, what you're proposing would work for some people, but by shifting the focus of the game you're excluding the very large amount of MMO players for whom achievement is the most fun part of the game. There's a whole archetype of this player in Bartle's taxonomy: The Achiever. Your response to reducing RWT in a mainstream MMO is "can't be done. P2W only for achievers".
4. This entire argument started because you said that developers should sell items, gold, accounts, etc on the cash shop because unsanctioned RWTers are going to sell all that anyway and it's inevitable and unpreventable. I disagreed, saying that I would prefer developers to instead work on reducing RWT rather than partaking in RWT themselves. You said that this was impossible, I gave you a concrete suggestion for a possible RWT reduction mechanic. You ignored this and instead started blathering about how the only way to reduce RWT and its effects is shifting the design focus away from achievement. This is where you moved the goalposts.
5. You've shown yourself unable to properly conduct an argument, repeatedly nitpicking analogies rather than addressing the actual argument, in addition to moving the goalposts of the original argument out of simple pride. Reply to this if you need to for your ego, but know that I'm done with you.
I believe devs have the freedom to charge , or not charge, as they see fit. It is a free market after all.
So if devs want to fund their games with money from whales, and give the game away to most players, i don't see a problem. And it is also a free market so I can decide whether to play free or not.