This is just a shallow pvp world

ingi · January 2018

The problem with mmos these days is they are all about raiding, riding flashy mounts, and occasionally doing battlegrounds to relax. Well some people find that they only play the battlegrounds, and the producers know this and they have to come up with a popular new pvp game for the masses. Well, they won't clone darkfall for obvious reasons, that game is hardcore pvp and that form of pvp was never viral so they have to create a new way to pvp. So what do they do? Well, 2 hours in crowfall last night gave me a pretty clear idea of whats going on. First of all, it felt as if I was playing WoW world PvP, remember when they released that many years ago and no one really did it? Well, that's how it felt. Basically I left the safe zone in Crowfall to find someone to fight and I stumbled upon this fortification that became clear to me that it was something factions battle over, complete with a little slider bar to show who controls it and by how much. Ewww. It had NPC guards there who could snipe like crazy. Not fun. I died because i was trying to take cover behind a post and they could still target me with ease. And that brings me to my second point.

This game is another one of those soft targeting games. Somehow people are actually liking this, like in tera. They refer to it as "skill". Sure tab targeting is kind of obsolete to some people but this soft targeting is the cheapest knock off for a real shooter mechanic I've ever seen. You just "hover" over a target and that's all you do, its now "selected". You can't dodge projectiles as far as I'm aware. if you try to take cover they can still hit you perfectly well if part of you is still showing. You also don't have to lead targets. Its still very much a selection/targeting like in tab to target. Also in melee, you don't do damage unless you click while targeting. So even if the target is clearly in range of your swing, you will miss him unless you look at him then swing. This has a very cheap and unnatural feel to it, and its as if there is no hitbox at all. The only thing I saw resemble a physics system was when I shot at a target that was behind another target, and the target in front got hit. But that's still not much and this system is INCOMPARABLE to a real shooter, like in darkfall.

Overall, the game felt shallow. And its no surprise, because this is just meant to replace battlegrounds, which is literally just a tiny arena with an arena-like objective.

Slapshot1188 · January 2018

Thanks.

Darkfall had it's chance. Actuallly 3 or 4 of them.

I'm ready to give Crowfall a try.

Frykka · January 2018

ingi said:

The problem with mmos these days is they are all about raiding, riding flashy mounts, and occasionally doing battlegrounds to relax. Well some people find that they only play the battlegrounds, and the producers know this and they have to come up with a popular new pvp game for the masses. Well, they won't clone darkfall for obvious reasons, that game is hardcore pvp and that form of pvp was never viral so they have to create a new way to pvp. So what do they do? Well, 2 hours in crowfall last night gave me a pretty clear idea of whats going on. First of all, it felt as if I was playing WoW world PvP, remember when they released that many years ago and no one really did it? Well, that's how it felt. Basically I left the safe zone in Crowfall to find someone to fight and I stumbled upon this fortification that became clear to me that it was something factions battle over, complete with a little slider bar to show who controls it and by how much. Ewww. It had NPC guards there who could snipe like crazy. Not fun. I died because i was trying to take cover behind a post and they could still target me with ease. And that brings me to my second point.

This game is another one of those soft targeting games. Somehow people are actually liking this, like in tera. They refer to it as "skill". Sure tab targeting is kind of obsolete to some people but this soft targeting is the cheapest knock off for a real shooter mechanic I've ever seen. You just "hover" over a target and that's all you do, its now "selected". You can't dodge projectiles as far as I'm aware. if you try to take cover they can still hit you perfectly well if part of you is still showing. You also don't have to lead targets. Its still very much a selection/targeting like in tab to target. Also in melee, you don't do damage unless you click while targeting. So even if the target is clearly in range of your swing, you will miss him unless you look at him then swing. This has a very cheap and unnatural feel to it, and its as if there is no hitbox at all. The only thing I saw resemble a physics system was when I shot at a target that was behind another target, and the target in front got hit. But that's still not much and this system is INCOMPARABLE to a real shooter, like in darkfall.

Overall, the game felt shallow. And its no surprise, because this is just meant to replace battlegrounds, which is literally just a tiny arena with an arena-like objective.

It won't be a shooter for certain but the player base has seen many iterations of the combat aiming and we agree the raycast (essentially the hitbox) is far too big. At another point last summer it was far too small and scoring a hit was 1 in 10 shots/swings. Remember that this is Pre-Alpha AND a TEST of systems and that the combat is constantly changing and will not be balanced or final for many months (after beta). Most players (like you) have been waiting, AND sgould wait for BETA before making this kind of off the cuff judgments about things that can and will change. The world is also mostly empty because 1) many were in the test environment for 5.4 2) population isn't a thing yet except certain prime times.

I would advise you to wait on your opinion until the game is closer to finished. You obviously are not a "testing" type of player as instead of suggestions you just give irrational comparisons.

Sovrath · January 2018

ingi said:

Overall, the game felt shallow. And its no surprise, because this is just meant to replace battlegrounds, which is literally just a tiny arena with an arena-like objective.

I really hate to say this but my advice is that you shouldn't play games in development. Just don't. You clearly don't understand what accessing a game in actual development is about.

Now, if all your issues with it are there at release (or let's say beta if a release date is close at hand) then sure, you will have a point.

but making hard and fast opinions about a game that is not even in alpha is beyond ridiculous.

Frykka · January 2018

Mikeha · January 2018

You just made me more excited for the game.

Also I love soft target.

roaland · January 2018

Sovrath said:

ingi said:

Overall, the game felt shallow. And its no surprise, because this is just meant to replace battlegrounds, which is literally just a tiny arena with an arena-like objective.

I really hate to say this but my advice is that you shouldn't play games in development. Just don't. You clearly don't understand what accessing a game in actual development is about.

Now, if all your issues with it are there at release (or let's say beta if a release date is close at hand) then sure, you will have a point.

but making hard and fast opinions about a game that is not even in alpha is beyond ridiculous.

that's part of the problems now adays. Developers are so quick to push things to the public for either PR/word of mouth advertising or to gain more funding to finish development that anyone can get into a closed beta because they are no longer closed like they used to be. This isn't just a crowfall problem, its a genre-wide problem. Every game currently in early development can be played simply by spending some cash. All these young gamers just don't understand what beta means and think just because they can play it, it should be perfect.

MadFrenchie · January 2018

Sovrath said:

ingi said:

Overall, the game felt shallow. And its no surprise, because this is just meant to replace battlegrounds, which is literally just a tiny arena with an arena-like objective.

but making hard and fast opinions about a game that is not even in alpha is beyond ridiculous.

As is taking money to allow these players in said (pre)alpha. Devs made that choice willingly, at the risk of folks like the OP jumping in and spreading such misguided opinions about the game.

Fair's fair.

someforumguy · January 2018

OP gives their opinion about the state of the game. I don't see the problem here. If the current game's state is not final, then at least opinions like the OP's is useful feedback.

Just saying nothing and waiting for release is useless.

Imo think they missed the boat here. With all the PUBG clones out there and the survival games that let you run your own server, I have to wonder what the point will be for this game. They have it all for PVP enthusiasts.
- open world pvp
- factions (to join/create)
- building including defenses for PVP/PVE
- moddable (in some cases)
- for private server being able to set your own rules

FFA MMORPG is kind of outdated imo. There is no way they will satisfy people with combat if it has to be lag free for a massive amount of players. This kind of gameplay works a lot better for those new types of games imo.

Loke666 · January 2018

I kinda thought the point was to make something with more mass appeal then Darkfall?

If it would be just another version of DFO the game would be gone fast, there are laready games like that out there and most of them are already on life support.

What we need is something in between UO/DFO and the usual super casual pointless PvP. I havn't tried Crowfall yet myself so I can't really tell if it does that or not but it at least seems rather interesting to me.

ingi · January 2018

Sovrath said:

ingi said:

Overall, the game felt shallow. And its no surprise, because this is just meant to replace battlegrounds, which is literally just a tiny arena with an arena-like objective.

I really hate to say this but my advice is that you shouldn't play games in development. Just don't. You clearly don't understand what accessing a game in actual development is about.

Now, if all your issues with it are there at release (or let's say beta if a release date is close at hand) then sure, you will have a point.

but making hard and fast opinions about a game that is not even in alpha is beyond ridiculous.

Sure they may change the fortification capturing mechanic. But it'll still be a fortification capturing mechanic at the end of the day. They will tweak the targeting engine too (it's buggy, btw), but at the end of the day it'll still be a cheap trick to turn a tab target mmo into a skill zone.

Frykka said:

ingi said:

The problem with mmos these days is they are all about raiding, riding flashy mounts, and occasionally doing battlegrounds to relax. Well some people find that they only play the battlegrounds, and the producers know this and they have to come up with a popular new pvp game for the masses. Well, they won't clone darkfall for obvious reasons, that game is hardcore pvp and that form of pvp was never viral so they have to create a new way to pvp. So what do they do? Well, 2 hours in crowfall last night gave me a pretty clear idea of whats going on. First of all, it felt as if I was playing WoW world PvP, remember when they released that many years ago and no one really did it? Well, that's how it felt. Basically I left the safe zone in Crowfall to find someone to fight and I stumbled upon this fortification that became clear to me that it was something factions battle over, complete with a little slider bar to show who controls it and by how much. Ewww. It had NPC guards there who could snipe like crazy. Not fun. I died because i was trying to take cover behind a post and they could still target me with ease. And that brings me to my second point.

This game is another one of those soft targeting games. Somehow people are actually liking this, like in tera. They refer to it as "skill". Sure tab targeting is kind of obsolete to some people but this soft targeting is the cheapest knock off for a real shooter mechanic I've ever seen. You just "hover" over a target and that's all you do, its now "selected". You can't dodge projectiles as far as I'm aware. if you try to take cover they can still hit you perfectly well if part of you is still showing. You also don't have to lead targets. Its still very much a selection/targeting like in tab to target. Also in melee, you don't do damage unless you click while targeting. So even if the target is clearly in range of your swing, you will miss him unless you look at him then swing. This has a very cheap and unnatural feel to it, and its as if there is no hitbox at all. The only thing I saw resemble a physics system was when I shot at a target that was behind another target, and the target in front got hit. But that's still not much and this system is INCOMPARABLE to a real shooter, like in darkfall.

Overall, the game felt shallow. And its no surprise, because this is just meant to replace battlegrounds, which is literally just a tiny arena with an arena-like objective.

It won't be a shooter for certain but the player base has seen many iterations of the combat aiming and we agree the raycast (essentially the hitbox) is far too big. At another point last summer it was far too small and scoring a hit was 1 in 10 shots/swings. Remember that this is Pre-Alpha AND a TEST of systems and that the combat is constantly changing and will not be balanced or final for many months (after beta). Most players (like you) have been waiting, AND sgould wait for BETA before making this kind of off the cuff judgments about things that can and will change. The world is also mostly empty because 1) many were in the test environment for 5.4 2) population isn't a thing yet except certain prime times.

I would advise you to wait on your opinion until the game is closer to finished. You obviously are not a "testing" type of player as instead of suggestions you just give irrational comparisons.

I can tell the targeting needs work and I wouldn't be surprised if it changed. But part of it won't change, and that's the part I don't like, that its just some kind of abomination of a shooter and tab target game.

Mikeha said:

You just made me more excited for the game.

Also I love soft target.

I feel like many people who keep asking for "targeting like tera" are people that just like the fact that mmos take more skill now. Yeah thats great, you can get an edge on people who can't aim. But for me its too unnatural and artificial, and doesn't feel like a whole and is in fact fractured. I don't expect to ever see a respectable developer make a great successful mmo out of the mechanic, guaranteed, because its just an unacceptable thing that people happen to like because people go crazy for more skill curves.

Loke666 said:

I kinda thought the point was to make something with more mass appeal then Darkfall?

If it would be just another version of DFO the game would be gone fast, there are laready games like that out there and most of them are already on life support.

What we need is something in between UO/DFO and the usual super casual pointless PvP. I havn't tried Crowfall yet myself so I can't really tell if it does that or not but it at least seems rather interesting to me.

No I'm not asking others to be like darkfall. That game was very closed off and hostile to anyone not into it. I just see these new pvp mmos popping up and can't help feel like they are just trying to appeal to the battlegrounders out there and it would be nice if like you say something in the middle would come out.

Sovrath · January 2018

MadFrenchie said:

Sovrath said:

ingi said:

Overall, the game felt shallow. And its no surprise, because this is just meant to replace battlegrounds, which is literally just a tiny arena with an arena-like objective.

but making hard and fast opinions about a game that is not even in alpha is beyond ridiculous.

As is taking money to allow these players in said (pre)alpha. Devs made that choice willingly, at the risk of folks like the OP jumping in and spreading such misguided opinions about the game.

Fair's fair.

That's very true. And again, damned if they do damned if they don't.

They ARE opening themselves up to criticism, even if that criticism isn't (sometimes) justified.

It's also why I think crowdfunding itself bites them in the butt. They haven't removed the shackles of people who are going to make demands of them (the publishers) but just handed those shackles over to the people who gave them money.

paulytheb · January 2018

The OP's statement kind of make me sad. It signals to me that people do not understand what will make this game special. Never minding the fact that it groundbreaking in its world development and destruction.

What will make this game special?? Take everything great about EVE and strip out all the spreadsheets and terrible game play. Now re-skin it as fantasy MMO game with the ease of play we are all used to. The intrigue, the infighting, the double dealing and the back stabbing, the emergent stories, mega guilds holding huge swaths of power, tiny freelance operations operating under their noses, smugglers, marauding pirates, Hermits, Do Gooders, Villains and even the naked guy turning in circles because he doesn't understand the controls, it is all going to be baked in. Yet it will be approachable and familiar.
You log in to do a little crafting, some of your friends log on, one of them mentions a rich node that needs to be mined, some other players show up with the same idea, you call your allies, they call their allies, before you know it you are in the middle a huge battle. Just because you wanted to do a little crafting.

That is the promise this game holds that has my interest.

MadFrenchie · January 2018

Sovrath said:

MadFrenchie said:

Sovrath said:

ingi said:

Overall, the game felt shallow. And its no surprise, because this is just meant to replace battlegrounds, which is literally just a tiny arena with an arena-like objective.

but making hard and fast opinions about a game that is not even in alpha is beyond ridiculous.

As is taking money to allow these players in said (pre)alpha. Devs made that choice willingly, at the risk of folks like the OP jumping in and spreading such misguided opinions about the game.

Fair's fair.

That's very true. And again, damned if they do damned if they don't.

They ARE opening themselves up to criticism, even if that criticism isn't (sometimes) justified.

It's also why I think crowdfunding itself bites them in the butt. They haven't removed the shackles of people who are going to make demands of them (the publishers) but just handed those shackles over to the people who gave them money.

Absolutely. Only, at least publishers had a grasp on the intricacies of project management and software development. Backers are largely ignorant, which makes them poor benefactors.

Gitmix · January 2018

Sovrath said:

It's also why I think crowdfunding itself bites them in the butt. They haven't removed the shackles of people who are going to make demands of them (the publishers) but just handed those shackles over to the people who gave them money.

Compared to a publisher or other big corporate financer, kickstarter backers have zero power and zero say on where the game is going. The new shackles are made of paper, at best.

GeezerGamer · January 2018

What has crowd funding brought to this genre? Thing is, none of these games has even released yet. Even with properly funded development and the usual transparencies associated with game development, highly anticipated games that were heavily watched throughout the process and were all touted to be the next best thing, turned out to disappoint.

GW2
SWTOR
WIldStar
ESO

I am not referring to the current or post release states for those games. I am talking about how they were at release. These games made promises and did not "bring it".

Now we have slews of CF games wrought with controversy promising a dream game. People seem to think that all these CF games have to do is release and here's the promise? NO! They have to actually be good.

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath.

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