Incoming rebuttals about how the scope of SC is so much bigger, dem epic graphics, etc., ironically and conveniently ignoring that all that scope and all those fancy-looking pixels are the very reason the game is so late and is eating so much money.
Don't come with the rebutals about scope and so aren't valid because they are valid, in many aspects.
And we can start with something simple, by the nature of this games, MMOs are known to be expensive and long to make than games like the one you mentioned.
You can't compare what can't be compared, you can make one Open-world survival game pretty quickly, go get Unreal Engine and bam, yet another open-world survival game was made,things current engines are prepared and ready for, when you go MMO then you need to come up with your own solutions instead of using one shelve engine already ready for that type of game.
There are games to take shortcuts to ease up and speed up development, there are games that do not, there are games that do a lot of R&D and develop their own tech, there are games that do not and instead use tech from they already had (in-house engines they develop, or engines license/buy)...
Like... There are just so many factors to this sort of things that there is not a global rule about it, it depends in the approach each development project takes at it, the speed factor is only benefited if that is what they want to prioritize.
Incoming rebuttals about how the scope of SC is so much bigger, dem epic graphics, etc., ironically and conveniently ignoring that all that scope and all those fancy-looking pixels are the very reason the game is so late and is eating so much money.
The argument is petty, don't come with the rebutals about scope and so aren't valid because they are valid, in many aspects.
And we can start with something simple just to show how ridiculous and petty this arguments are, by the nature of this games, MMOs are known to be expensive and long to make than games like the one you mentioned.
You can't compare what can't be compared, you can make one Open-world survival game pretty quickly, go get Unreal Engine and bam, yet another open-world survival game was made, things current engines are prepared and ready for, when you go MMO then you need to come up with your own solutions instead of using one shelve engine already ready for that type of game.
Like... There are just so many factors to this sort of things to come up with those type of arguments, too much manipulation is happening to make any argument possible, it's not reasonable.
I thought SC wasn’t an MMO? Pretty sure it’s been argued on here by the fans that it isnt
I wish Kefo would just provide the information supporting his claims. When you make bold claims and have no supporting information, it looks bad. Pick a better point to argue, one which you can provide details which support your point.
Divinity: Original Sin is one.
Shoe-string budget? Check.
Lots of content? Check.
Fun? Check. At least, if reviews are anything to go by.
Developed on a fraction of the time as SC? Check.
Incoming rebuttals about how the scope of SC is so much bigger, dem epic graphics, etc., ironically and conveniently ignoring that all that scope and all those fancy-looking pixels are the very reason the game is so late and is eating so much money.
I would not call 4.5 million Euro a shoe-string budget. But it is a good price for a non-AAA game. And it almost bankrupted the development studio.
Incoming rebuttals about how the scope of SC is so much bigger, dem epic graphics, etc., ironically and conveniently ignoring that all that scope and all those fancy-looking pixels are the very reason the game is so late and is eating so much money.
The argument is petty, don't come with the rebutals about scope and so aren't valid because they are valid, in many aspects.
And we can start with something simple just to show how ridiculous and petty this arguments are, by the nature of this games, MMOs are known to be expensive and long to make than games like the one you mentioned.
You can't compare what can't be compared, you can make one Open-world survival game pretty quickly, go get Unreal Engine and bam, yet another open-world survival game was made, things current engines are prepared and ready for, when you go MMO then you need to come up with your own solutions instead of using one shelve engine already ready for that type of game.
Like... There are just so many factors to this sort of things to come up with those type of arguments, too much manipulation is happening to make any argument possible, it's not reasonable.
I thought SC wasn’t an MMO? Pretty sure it’s been argued on here by the fans that it isnt
Yeah it was argued... in 2013 when there was very little info about the actual game. Since then the development has changed so it is a MMO at this point. I'll be the first to admit that as planned it's more of a MMO-Lite than a fully fledged MMO but a MMO just the same.
You will be playing in a Universe with everyone else on one Universal Server Cluster. Only the local instance numbers will be limited. That limitation could be anywhere from 64 to several hundred players. We don't know at this point. Sure sounds like a MMO to me.
Incoming rebuttals about how the scope of SC is so much bigger, dem epic graphics, etc., ironically and conveniently ignoring that all that scope and all those fancy-looking pixels are the very reason the game is so late and is eating so much money.
The argument is petty, don't come with the rebutals about scope and so aren't valid because they are valid, in many aspects.
And we can start with something simple just to show how ridiculous and petty this arguments are, by the nature of this games, MMOs are known to be expensive and long to make than games like the one you mentioned.
You can't compare what can't be compared, you can make one Open-world survival game pretty quickly, go get Unreal Engine and bam, yet another open-world survival game was made, things current engines are prepared and ready for, when you go MMO then you need to come up with your own solutions instead of using one shelve engine already ready for that type of game.
Like... There are just so many factors to this sort of things to come up with those type of arguments, too much manipulation is happening to make any argument possible, it's not reasonable.
I thought SC wasn’t an MMO? Pretty sure it’s been argued on here by the fans that it isnt
Yeah it was argued... in 2013 when there was very little info about the actual game. Since then the development has changed so it is a MMO at this point. I'll be the first to admit that as planned it's more of a MMO-Lite than a fully fledged MMO but a MMO just the same.
You will be playing in a Universe with everyone else on one Universal Server Cluster. Only the local instance numbers will be limited. That limitation could be anywhere from 64 to several hundred players. We don't know at this point. Sure sounds like a MMO to me.
Bren
Pretty sure it was argued last year as well with Erillion pointing out multiple times that it even says it’s not a MMO(or something along those lines) on the website.
64 players does not make an MMO and if they get to hundreds of players maybe but they are still struggling with the server shitting it’s pants when there are more then 10? 20 people?
It was argued like, a couple months ago or so when MassivelyOP posted that article about the most disappointing MMOs and then certain Star Citizen white knights tried to derail the point by saying Star Citizen was not an MMO.
This forum is a known can of worms on the "It is MMO! It is not MMO!" so I leave it as that. The game that is being developed here as Star Citizen is clearly one MMO; the persistent and online nature of the game, the intended network setup, the type of game itself transpires on its ongoing development.
One could argue it was and this is why they mentioned this on KS even because back then, SC was not only its MMO aspect (the PU), but now SQ42 is its own thing and at least until after release the private servers and so won't be there, hence it is the defenition of the PU that stands.
64 players does not make an MMO and if they get to hundreds of players maybe but they are still struggling with the server shitting it’s pants when there are more then 10? 20 people?
And others like your argument will forever fall into the argument about instance pops. And so it shall be a fierce debate until the end of times.
Also it has been explained that the performance factors of the PU do not lie on the servers capable to handle it or not, it's related to netcode but when your frames are dying it's not the server that is dying, it's your client that is being overwhelmed with updates.
Incoming rebuttals about how the scope of SC is so much bigger, dem epic graphics, etc., ironically and conveniently ignoring that all that scope and all those fancy-looking pixels are the very reason the game is so late and is eating so much money.
Don't come with the rebutals about scope and so aren't valid because they are valid, in many aspects.
And we can start with something simple, by the nature of this games, MMOs are known to be expensive and long to make than games like the one you mentioned.
You can't compare what can't be compared, you can make one Open-world survival game pretty quickly, go get Unreal Engine and bam, yet another open-world survival game was made,things current engines are prepared and ready for, when you go MMO then you need to come up with your own solutions instead of using one shelve engine already ready for that type of game.
There are games to take shortcuts to ease up and speed up development, there are games that do not, there are games that do a lot of R&D and develop their own tech, there are games that do not and instead use tech from they already had (in-house engines they develop, or engines license/buy)...
Like... There are just so many factors to this sort of things that there is not a global rule about it, it depends in the approach each development project takes at it, the speed factor is only benefited if that is what they want to prioritize.
And, again..... That's why this game is taking so long and eating up so much money. All of your post did nothing to rebuke that.
The challenge was finding an indie game that was built much more quickly and contained quality content that was fun on a shoestring budget. 5 million is a shoe string budget today, Larian took loans from folks but never courted a traditional publisher (instead using the Steam platform), the reviews are great, and the game has an abnormally large amount of content in today's landscape. The isometric view and it's conveniences for Larian in development are an example of a trade-off being made to successfully focus on other gameplay tenets the devs deemed more important to their vision (aka world interactivity, quest design, and combat). Which is... Exactly what most project managers are going to do when cash has stretched thin or the project is vastly behind schedule.
Some dev studios do it better than others. Larian did it very well for Divinity.
Erillion added the VR requirement after the initial challenge, so I didn't look to find a VR-enabled indie title.
>>>> Erillion added the VR requirement after the initial challenge, so I
didn't look to find a VR-enabled indie title. >>>>
"Added" ?
Did you look at the title of this thread lately ?
Have fun
PS: But hey ... D:OS does have a VR mode ... well ... kinda ... ;-)
True, they have "VR goggles!"
I get this thread is about VR, but that wasn't part of the original challenge Kefo mentioned, so I wasn't including that requirement. It's really a moot point, because it's the scope and graphical fidelity that make the difference... The debate is really about whether that scope is realistically possible, and whether CIG are progressing toward the goal in a competent, efficient manner. I think Kefo's point with the challenge was that there are studios with much less resources who have made excellent games in much less time. They did so by creating a specific vision and working to achieve that specific vision. They didn't start with the core vision then add housing, VR, tanks, etc.. They focused on what was core to the vision of the experience they wished to provide, then made the necessary compromises to make that happen.
It takes a whole lotta maturity and humility to admit that one of your grand ideas for your video game project isn't quite grand enough to make the features cut. It shows a good level of pragmatic realism in software project management.
How about just making a game that can be released? It seems like every month they try to come up with something that buys them more time...Well we cant launch in 2019 now because we are working on VR...Meanwhile buy our new ship in the store for $2,000.....
How about just making a game that can be released? It seems like every month they try to come up with something that buys them more time...Well we cant launch in 2019 now because we are working on VR...Meanwhile buy our new ship in the store for $2,000.....
The only thing that consistently works is the cash shop.
Anyone wondered why the "cash shop just works" since 2012?
Maybe, just maybe CIG is delivering something that no one else is even trying.
I mean it's been more than 5 years since there's been more than proof of concept that there's a market for this kind of game yet no company, big or small as even tried to capitalise on it.
Maybe, just maybe it's really hard to do what CIG is doing...
Anyone wondered why the "cash shop just works" since 2012?
Maybe, just maybe CIG is delivering something that no one else is even trying.
I mean it's been more than 5 years since there's been more than proof of concept that there's a market for this kind of game yet no company, big or small as even tried to capitalise on it.
Maybe, just maybe it's really hard to do what CIG is doing...
it’s hard to do a cash shop? No not really and there are plenty of games out there that happily fleece their user base.
How about just making a game that can be released? It seems like every month they try to come up with something that buys them more time...Well we cant launch in 2019 now because we are working on VR...Meanwhile buy our new ship in the store for $2,000.....
If you had read the start of the thread you would have established that the title should have been "CR not working on VR" - not as good a clickbait title though. So no worries on the VR score.
If you had read the start of the thread you would have established that the title should have been "CR not working on VR" - not as good a clickbait title though. So no worries on the VR score.
Anyone wondered why the "cash shop just works" since 2012?
Maybe, just maybe CIG is delivering something that no one else is even trying.
I mean it's been more than 5 years since there's been more than proof of concept that there's a market for this kind of game yet no company, big or small as even tried to capitalise on it.
Maybe, just maybe it's really hard to do what CIG is doing...
it’s hard to do a cash shop? No not really and there are plenty of games out there that happily fleece their user base.
Plenty of games that lose ~90% of their user-base and need to drop the price range of their product by ~50% or go free-2-play to stay relevant...
CIG is providing exactly what it's fanbase wants while keeping at bay haters and disruptive naysayers.
It'd say it's a win win for everyone except forum mod's
Anyone wondered why the "cash shop just works" since 2012?
Maybe, just maybe CIG is delivering something that no one else is even trying.
I mean it's been more than 5 years since there's been more than proof of concept that there's a market for this kind of game yet no company, big or small as even tried to capitalise on it.
Maybe, just maybe it's really hard to do what CIG is doing...
it’s hard to do a cash shop? No not really and there are plenty of games out there that happily fleece their user base.
Plenty of games that lose ~90% of their user-base and need to drop the price range of their product by ~50% or go free-2-play to stay relevant...
CIG is providing exactly what it's fanbase wants while keeping at bay haters and disruptive naysayers.
It'd say it's a win win for everyone except forum mod's
It’s fanbass wants to throw money down a black hole? Well I suppose more power to them and CIG for taking advantage of people who have more money than brains
The only people that have less brains for less money are the ones that think they have a say on how other people use their money lol
Better yet, they make a crusade out of it, "I must warn these poor souls that they are wasting money on something I don't like" Whille wasting time/money on this campaign they feel like their life is worthy.
Poor souls indeed. No wonder they are so salty of Star Citizen ongoing success.
CIG is providing exactly what it's fanbase wants while keeping at bay haters and disruptive naysayers.
Yeah, it's not like everyone and their mother is criticizing the game everywhere it's mentioned. They must all be hateful individuals with "less brains for less money" whatever that means. It's not like anyone could possibly have valid criticism for the best game ever made in the history of our universe.
CIG is providing exactly what it's fanbase wants while keeping at bay haters and disruptive naysayers.
Yeah, it's not like everyone and their mother is criticizing the game everywhere it's mentioned. They must all be hateful individuals with "less brains for less money" whatever that means. It's not like anyone could possibly have valid criticism for the best game ever made in the history of our universe.
These folks you call "everyone and their mother" are sad and lonely with no games to play. So they go on and on about stuff they cant understand or change.
The only people that have less brains for less money are the ones that think they have a say on how other people use their money lol
Better yet, they make a crusade out of it, "I must warn these poor souls that they are wasting money on something I don't like" Whille wasting time/money on this campaign they feel like their life is worthy.
Poor souls indeed. No wonder they are so salty of Star Citizen ongoing success.
I'm not really sure what less brains for less money means but I don't really see anyone telling anyone how to spend their money.
The only people that have less brains for less money are the ones that think they have a say on how other people use their money lol
Better yet, they make a crusade out of it, "I must warn these poor souls that they are wasting money on something I don't like" Whille wasting time/money on this campaign they feel like their life is worthy.
Poor souls indeed. No wonder they are so salty of Star Citizen ongoing success.
I'm not really sure what less brains for less money means but I don't really see anyone telling anyone how to spend their money.
Why so salty about Star Citizens spending money on space-ships then?
The only people that have less brains for less money are the ones that think they have a say on how other people use their money lol
Better yet, they make a crusade out of it, "I must warn these poor souls that they are wasting money on something I don't like" Whille wasting time/money on this campaign they feel like their life is worthy.
Poor souls indeed. No wonder they are so salty of Star Citizen ongoing success.
I'm not really sure what less brains for less money means but I don't really see anyone telling anyone how to spend their money.
Why so salty about Star Citizens spending money on space-ships then?
Comments
And we can start with something simple, by the nature of this games, MMOs are known to be expensive and long to make than games like the one you mentioned.
You can't compare what can't be compared, you can make one Open-world survival game pretty quickly, go get Unreal Engine and bam, yet another open-world survival game was made, things current engines are prepared and ready for, when you go MMO then you need to come up with your own solutions instead of using one shelve engine already ready for that type of game.
There are games to take shortcuts to ease up and speed up development, there are games that do not, there are games that do a lot of R&D and develop their own tech, there are games that do not and instead use tech from they already had (in-house engines they develop, or engines license/buy)...
Like... There are just so many factors to this sort of things that there is not a global rule about it, it depends in the approach each development project takes at it, the speed factor is only benefited if that is what they want to prioritize.
And it almost bankrupted the development studio.
https://www.pcgamer.com/how-divinity-original-sin-almost-bankrupted-larian-studios/
But i would definitely agree to D:OS being a great game.
Lots of content? Check.
Fun? Check.
VR mode ? Weeeellll ... if you like Aprils Fool jokes ... yes ... there IS a VR mode ... kinda ;-)
https://www.gameskinny.com/bam7b/divinity-original-sin-enhanced-edition-adds-free-vr-mode-spoilers
Have fun
You will be playing in a Universe with everyone else on one Universal Server Cluster. Only the local instance numbers will be limited. That limitation could be anywhere from 64 to several hundred players. We don't know at this point. Sure sounds like a MMO to me.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
64 players does not make an MMO and if they get to hundreds of players maybe but they are still struggling with the server shitting it’s pants when there are more then 10? 20 people?
This forum is a known can of worms on the "It is MMO! It is not MMO!" so I leave it as that. The game that is being developed here as Star Citizen is clearly one MMO; the persistent and online nature of the game, the intended network setup, the type of game itself transpires on its ongoing development.
One could argue it was and this is why they mentioned this on KS even because back then, SC was not only its MMO aspect (the PU), but now SQ42 is its own thing and at least until after release the private servers and so won't be there, hence it is the defenition of the PU that stands.
And others like your argument will forever fall into the argument about instance pops. And so it shall be a fierce debate until the end of times.
Also it has been explained that the performance factors of the PU do not lie on the servers capable to handle it or not, it's related to netcode but when your frames are dying it's not the server that is dying, it's your client that is being overwhelmed with updates.
The challenge was finding an indie game that was built much more quickly and contained quality content that was fun on a shoestring budget. 5 million is a shoe string budget today, Larian took loans from folks but never courted a traditional publisher (instead using the Steam platform), the reviews are great, and the game has an abnormally large amount of content in today's landscape. The isometric view and it's conveniences for Larian in development are an example of a trade-off being made to successfully focus on other gameplay tenets the devs deemed more important to their vision (aka world interactivity, quest design, and combat). Which is... Exactly what most project managers are going to do when cash has stretched thin or the project is vastly behind schedule.
Some dev studios do it better than others. Larian did it very well for Divinity.
Erillion added the VR requirement after the initial challenge, so I didn't look to find a VR-enabled indie title.
Erillion added the VR requirement after the initial challenge, so I didn't look to find a VR-enabled indie title.
>>>>
"Added" ?
Did you look at the title of this thread lately ?
Have fun
PS:
But hey ... D:OS does have a VR mode ... well ... kinda ... ;-)
I get this thread is about VR, but that wasn't part of the original challenge Kefo mentioned, so I wasn't including that requirement. It's really a moot point, because it's the scope and graphical fidelity that make the difference... The debate is really about whether that scope is realistically possible, and whether CIG are progressing toward the goal in a competent, efficient manner. I think Kefo's point with the challenge was that there are studios with much less resources who have made excellent games in much less time. They did so by creating a specific vision and working to achieve that specific vision. They didn't start with the core vision then add housing, VR, tanks, etc.. They focused on what was core to the vision of the experience they wished to provide, then made the necessary compromises to make that happen.
It takes a whole lotta maturity and humility to admit that one of your grand ideas for your video game project isn't quite grand enough to make the features cut. It shows a good level of pragmatic realism in software project management.
Maybe, just maybe CIG is delivering something that no one else is even trying.
I mean it's been more than 5 years since there's been more than proof of concept that there's a market for this kind of game yet no company, big or small as even tried to capitalise on it.
Maybe, just maybe it's really hard to do what CIG is doing...
A title that would be incorrect.
Have fun
It'd say it's a win win for everyone except forum mod's
Better yet, they make a crusade out of it, "I must warn these poor souls that they are wasting money on something I don't like" Whille wasting time/money on this campaign they feel like their life is worthy.
Poor souls indeed. No wonder they are so salty of Star Citizen ongoing success.
They must all be hateful individuals with "less brains for less money" whatever that means.
It's not like anyone could possibly have valid criticism for the best game ever made in the history of our universe.
..Cake..
Makes for good standup-e-lulz nonetheless.
I'm not really sure what less brains for less money means but I don't really see anyone telling anyone how to spend their money.