I don't know if anyone feels the same, but I feel like there was a lot more build diversity before Heart of Thorns introduced the elite specializations, now it always seems like the elite specializations are direct upgrades rather than play style choices.
Warrior used to be super fun pre-HoT with Hammer/Greatsword, but nowadays you have to play Spellbreaker or Berserker to have a fighting chance, and I just don't find it as interesting playing condition damage on a Warrior of all things.
I decided to play Path of Exile again after a long time. I played it very little but recently finding myself at a loose end decided to try this game again. At first I was not impressed the new player experience is pretty grungy but I remember when I last played it had a tonne of depth even though I did not get beyond the first couple of areas but I could see the socket and gem system had a lot of possibilities.
So I started reading and heavens to betsy it is insane the amount of depth this game has. The builds around a couple of items and the variance of those. The meta game and so on. I read and I read and I must say theory crafting was fun as hell. I think that a large part of any game lies in the imagination. Part of the fun lies in creating a build and trying it and enjoying playing it.
When you are hemmed in by others and forced to play one way all the fun is taken out of you. Can you imagine how fast a game like Path of Exile would fall if people didn't spend so much time orgasming over the new builds and trying out different concepts and considering the insane number of combinations in the game. It is really fruitful and enjoyable and if you are true to yourself as a gamer you don't want to be told what to play . I think when I was playing WoW I was always annoyed when my tri tree healer was looked down on. Then when they grouped with me they shut up. Granted I was really not able to do top tier raid runs as main healer that seemed to only work with this build or that but for dungeons my build worked. So I just played where I shone.
I've found that in most MMOs, and specifically GW2 and Rift, that the 'meta' builds are decent, but not the best. ESO is another one. The 'meta' are just builds that everyone can easily play instantly without much effort.
The best builds are wildly unknown or tailored to playstyle. I have a Mage build in Rift that destroys every other build I've seen, especially in PvP, and I'm sure there are plenty excellent ones that I don't know about too for all classes.
Gamers need to understand that the best theorycrafters do 'not' share their findings. If you find a way to gain an advantage in a competitive situation, sharing it is stupid. If everyone is running around with 'the best'.. it isn't better than anything anymore. Plus, it'll just get nerfed.
Your anecdotal comments are not in any way, shape, or form fact. The fact is many of the best players/theory crafters in MMOs do, in fact, share their builds. Just because you choose to not share your "elite I destroy everyone" build does not mean others do not. And many times it is not even the build but the player. I have played metabuilds that were just not for me, but something wildly different that fit my playstyle and I made it effective.
Pro life tip: You're not always the smartest one in the room. Starting your post out as if you are discredits your point before it is even read....if read at all.
Guild Wars 2 - Metabattle is Ruining PvP in GW2 - MMORPG.com
There’s an undercurrent of PvP fanatics in GW2 that believe there is only one correct way to play a class in structured PvP, and that’s the MetaBattle way. If you pray to the holy MetaBattle gods to tell you what to play, I have some startling news for you, you’re ruining PvP.
That is just how it is now. Personally I just play how I like and ignore people that judge. I remember back in the day, when MMOs where new, there was no mod add-ons nor any place to look up content. There were no builds. That was the fun of playing MMOs, you learnt the game with friends, and sometimes you would be on one boss for weeks just learning the mechanics. When you finally beat her/him it was the greatest feeling of accomplishment with good friends working together as a team. Not these days. At least I have the memories:)
I remember having DAoC having meta builds back before ToA released. There were skills you leveled to certain points for a specific ability, such as the shield line or the slash line.
It's a constant issue. It's inevitable, only because it's human nature to seek the most effective/efficient means by which to complete a task (i.e. raid). I don't look for games without a meta; I look for games in which the non-meta builds are still competitive enough to be acceptable.
As others have said, it's not GW 2, it's everywhere. I think LoL is by far the one affected and limited by "meta" of them all. I also remember playing SMITE. At first, everyone (friend or random) played what they wanted. Two or three warriors on the same lane? Or AD and tank? Why not, as long as you get the kills. Of course it didn't work every time, but we had fun, and the win rate was like 60-70%. But as we got teamed up with "better" players, meta started to take hold.
Before, someone would choose a lane, and the rest would adjust. What did it matter? And if it didn't work out, you'd trade lanes.
But now, they insisted on using the lane assigned by meta, and absolute refused to do anything else. Even if everyone always lost against the one on their own lane, but always won when quickly skipping to another..didn't matter, meta says different. Even if the enemy constantly traded lanes, or teamed up..didn't matter. If meta had said they should throw their computer out of the window to make it faster, they would done that.
So, as some have mentioned, meta is a good guideline, it helps finding stuff that works for yourself, and everyone knows what to expect of others. But following meta like a slave is stupid. Even more so when you are clearly loosing that way, but every "non-meta" situation result in a win.
And most of all, games are supposed to be fun. The toxic attitude of people that basically worship meta is not fun. Maybe games need a filter where you can set whether you want only meta, freeform or doesn'T matter. Like you can pre-select roles in many MOBAs etc.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
It's common sense that one build will perform the best. It's all math and that formula (build) is the best function of that.
The frustration, for me, begins when that one build is so much more clearly better that there are no alternatives. If a game allowed for some player skill and there were 4 or 5 build options then this complaint would be moot.
In Rift there is only one mage DPS option. All the other options perform significantly poorer, to the point they're a detriment. That means if you want to do mage DPS and gear up, then you play one way.
That's the problem with the meta in GW2. GW1 had an issue with the meta too, but the system was designed on counters, so anything could be countered. Community involvement in the meta along with weekly balance adjustments made that manageable.
It's not really the sites fault, but they contribute to the problem especially with how they present the builds. GW1 had meta build sites too, but they didn't drive the meta. The meta drove them.
Do you mean MA? Because I recently learned it doesn't have the AoE cap on it's AoE ability, and the path is wide enough to hit much more than 5 mobs. Trion definitely needs to look at either lifting the cap for other AoEs or capping the number of targets elemental barrage can affect. It's a pretty gnarly issue because of a glaring oversight, but at least it seems to be an easy fix.
True enough. The meta builds, many times, aren't the only possible option, but the easiest. Easier leads to higher rates of success and higher efficiency, leading to faster progression. And, gamers being humans, will almost always seek the path of least resistance.
To be fair, the problem is not the metabattle website and the problem is also not the player who follow the meta. The problem is Arenanet who since release are not able to balance this game in a way to make more builds viable aka to introduce more build diversity. The players will always play what is effective and since not that much builds are you are basically seeing the same and it is expected from anybody to run them.
We, older gamers, called out the scrubs the minute we saw this starting up circa 2005. We call it the "copy and paste lifestyle." It got to be so bad in gaming that people were starting to tell game developers they'd pay for cosmetics. What you see today is because of the brain dead morons who can't think for themselves...all that's come full circle. Automation and computers have given them their fix (their guide.)
In my point of view anet is encouraging this kind of meta builds creating each time at the so called "balance" patch a more unbalance environment in the game so all i have to say is anet learn how to balance the game for real giving the end user the posibility to play his/her favourite classes in arena or wvw and be useful in the same time. Force ALL classes the word "compromise" upon them. Can you do that Anet?
We, older gamers, called out the scrubs the minute we saw this starting up circa 2005. We call it the "copy and paste lifestyle." It got to be so bad in gaming that people were starting to tell game developers they'd pay for cosmetics. What you see today is because of the brain dead morons who can't think for themselves...all that's come full circle. Automation and computers have given them their fix (their guide.)
We, older gamers, called out the scrubs the minute we saw this starting up circa 2005. We call it the "copy and paste lifestyle." It got to be so bad in gaming that people were starting to tell game developers they'd pay for cosmetics. What you see today is because of the brain dead morons who can't think for themselves...all that's come full circle. Automation and computers have given them their fix (their guide.)
"Cookie-cutter" builds is the term I recall.
Yea some called it that, others of us called it c&p for short. Just copy and paste. Then we would usually bring it home saying they would copy and paste life if they could (and they really would if they could!) Lol. #Nostalgia
I've found that in most MMOs, and specifically GW2 and Rift, that the 'meta' builds are decent, but not the best. ESO is another one. The 'meta' are just builds that everyone can easily play instantly without much effort.
The best builds are wildly unknown or tailored to playstyle. I have a Mage build in Rift that destroys every other build I've seen, especially in PvP, and I'm sure there are plenty excellent ones that I don't know about too for all classes.
Gamers need to understand that the best theorycrafters do 'not' share their findings. If you find a way to gain an advantage in a competitive situation, sharing it is stupid. If everyone is running around with 'the best'.. it isn't better than anything anymore. Plus, it'll just get nerfed.
Your anecdotal comments are not in any way, shape, or form fact. The fact is many of the best players/theory crafters in MMOs do, in fact, share their builds. Just because you choose to not share your "elite I destroy everyone" build does not mean others do not. And many times it is not even the build but the player. I have played metabuilds that were just not for me, but something wildly different that fit my playstyle and I made it effective.
Pro life tip: You're not always the smartest one in the room. Starting your post out as if you are discredits your point before it is even read....if read at all.
Your post is extremely hypocritical. You really should pay attention to your own life tips. You can't accuse someone of acting like the smartest person in the room by... acting like the smartest person in the room. You're the only person spouting about things that are fact and telling someone they are wrong and you are right.
You do realise you basically agreed with what I was saying by stating you've made your own builds based on your playstyle? Did you share you builds? You know I mentioned playstyle, right? Yeh, you missed that after your face turned red...
Assuming that the extremely low percentage of MMO players that are active in online communities are likely to be the best is quite naive... but you're not just assuming, you've stated it as fact. *clap* *clap*
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
People tend to get rather whiny when you kill them with a "bad" build as well. The teammates complains as well, even if I get more kills then them. I usually ignore stuff like that anyways. Of course if I do start to loose more then win it would be a good time to do some changes and consider using a different tactics but until then you can mind your own business.
Then again, I am more interested in using a fun fighting style that fits my gameplay then to use a maximize damage build.
Look, reality check. The PvP in GW2 is horrible, the class balances are a joke, and they have only gotten worse with each expansion.
Metabattle has not done anything wrong, if they designed the game better, there would be far more options open, but they didn't, so, in reality there really is "meta" builds and ways to play that vastly over power other builds and ways to play.
If you want balanced PvP, play an MOBA, GW2 is a PvE MMO that put in some PvP to try and attract a larger player base.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
and to all those "if you don't want to play max level, or simply can't, you don't have to, yoyu can do less dmg" weenies: if you don't want to think about how you play your char best, then go and read a webpage about how to be the best
i am suuuure no one else does this, so your advantage will be totaly huge!
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
To say that a website based on sharing builds and promoting good playstyles (as well as telling you how to play a build) RUINS a game mode is absurd.
Outside of bronze, and maybe low silver, your 'player created' builds will be destroyed by anyone on these meta builds. That isn't a problem with Metabattle, its a problem with game balance. The builds Metabattle are putting as 'meta' are there because Legendary players, AT winners and monthly champs are running them to win, and the reason those high level players don't run MINION MANCERS (seriously, of all things, this is probably the worst example you could use) is because they will get destroyed for trying.
To be competitive in a game that has serious balance issues, you need to play the OP things. Because otherwise someone else will, and they will demolish you. Unless there is a huge skill gap (see- the kind found in low levels) then overtuned builds will always come out ahead.
Am i saying a professional player on staff ele won't destroy a rank 2 bunny rabbit player? of course not. But you put 2 high level players against each other, one on a meta build and one on (sigh) minion mancer? It's going to be an absolute stomp in favour of the meta builds.
For starters, none of my builds I play are Metabattle builds on any of my characters. I spend time to create builds based on my play style, and I have very specific strengths and weaknesses in the builds I create, classes that I completely destroy, and classes that I am very weak to.
But again, I don't run any "Meta" builds and I currently sit at mid tier gold, and I have probably only played about 15 matches with several different classes in this current ranked season.
Prior to HoT I was ranked in the top 50. I left GW2 for a while came back at different points, and generally end my rankings around platinum during each season as I spend time playing other game modes more these days.
GW2 does have balance issues, they always have really, and it only gets exacerbated when they add new specializations and it all gets thrown out of wack when they introduce balance patches.
But one of the benefits of playing builds that I create is that most of the time, the builds still work because those aren't the builds getting balanced.
People complain about "over powered" Meta Battle builds because they have specific builds to complain about, and those are the builds that are "balanced" the next patch. It's just as easy to say that MetaBattle is the cause of some of the poor PvP balancing choices made over the past few years, because it encourages players to use certain builds in a certain way regardless of personal effectiveness.
But if everyone is using "Bunker Druid" rangers or "Greatsword/Dagger Spellbreaker" warriors, then that's what people getting beat by them will complain about.
A shallow piece by a person with obviously limited competitive experience and understanding of the issue at hand. While I don't want to waste time tearing apart every of the many flawed or otherwise depth-free arguments listed here, I'll share the following bit of insight:
Metagame should just be treated as another way of saying trend, with highly "rated" meta-defining builds shaping everything around them. Why? The complexity of games makes them difficult to balance, let alone perfectly, which is why such trends do appear. Did you honestly buy into the pipe dream that "everyhing is viable if you're good enough?" Tell that to a chess grandmaster as you boldly experiment with your original openers, and then you lose repeatedly. Trends that are espoused by hundreds of thousands of players of all skill levels that change little over long periods (read: years) are unlikely to be broken, and particularly for games with little in the way of customization, such as GW2.
To argue against such trends is as pointless as swearing at the sun for rising daily; it simply happens. You can be that special snowflake I meet in every game and try to do your own masturbatory thing because you are just so much more creative, but the truth is that such players never end up anywhere close to being competitive. They'll certainly write articles as a way of dealing with the cognitive dissonance resulting from their poor results, however.
Whoever greenlit this piece should be as embarrassed as the author.
Comments
Warrior used to be super fun pre-HoT with Hammer/Greatsword, but nowadays you have to play Spellbreaker or Berserker to have a fighting chance, and I just don't find it as interesting playing condition damage on a Warrior of all things.
So I started reading and heavens to betsy it is insane the amount of depth this game has. The builds around a couple of items and the variance of those. The meta game and so on. I read and I read and I must say theory crafting was fun as hell. I think that a large part of any game lies in the imagination. Part of the fun lies in creating a build and trying it and enjoying playing it.
When you are hemmed in by others and forced to play one way all the fun is taken out of you. Can you imagine how fast a game like Path of Exile would fall if people didn't spend so much time orgasming over the new builds and trying out different concepts and considering the insane number of combinations in the game. It is really fruitful and enjoyable and if you are true to yourself as a gamer you don't want to be told what to play . I think when I was playing WoW I was always annoyed when my tri tree healer was looked down on. Then when they grouped with me they shut up. Granted I was really not able to do top tier raid runs as main healer that seemed to only work with this build or that but for dungeons my build worked. So I just played where I shone.
Your anecdotal comments are not in any way, shape, or form fact. The fact is many of the best players/theory crafters in MMOs do, in fact, share their builds. Just because you choose to not share your "elite I destroy everyone" build does not mean others do not. And many times it is not even the build but the player. I have played metabuilds that were just not for me, but something wildly different that fit my playstyle and I made it effective.
Pro life tip: You're not always the smartest one in the room. Starting your post out as if you are discredits your point before it is even read....if read at all.
It's a constant issue. It's inevitable, only because it's human nature to seek the most effective/efficient means by which to complete a task (i.e. raid). I don't look for games without a meta; I look for games in which the non-meta builds are still competitive enough to be acceptable.
Before, someone would choose a lane, and the rest would adjust. What did it matter? And if it didn't work out, you'd trade lanes.
But now, they insisted on using the lane assigned by meta, and absolute refused to do anything else. Even if everyone always lost against the one on their own lane, but always won when quickly skipping to another..didn't matter, meta says different. Even if the enemy constantly traded lanes, or teamed up..didn't matter. If meta had said they should throw their computer out of the window to make it faster, they would done that.
So, as some have mentioned, meta is a good guideline, it helps finding stuff that works for yourself, and everyone knows what to expect of others. But following meta like a slave is stupid. Even more so when you are clearly loosing that way, but every "non-meta" situation result in a win.
And most of all, games are supposed to be fun. The toxic attitude of people that basically worship meta is not fun. Maybe games need a filter where you can set whether you want only meta, freeform or doesn'T matter. Like you can pre-select roles in many MOBAs etc.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
"Cookie-cutter" builds is the term I recall.
Yea some called it that, others of us called it c&p for short. Just copy and paste. Then we would usually bring it home saying they would copy and paste life if they could (and they really would if they could!) Lol. #Nostalgia
Your post is extremely hypocritical. You really should pay attention to your own life tips. You can't accuse someone of acting like the smartest person in the room by... acting like the smartest person in the room. You're the only person spouting about things that are fact and telling someone they are wrong and you are right.
You do realise you basically agreed with what I was saying by stating you've made your own builds based on your playstyle? Did you share you builds? You know I mentioned playstyle, right? Yeh, you missed that after your face turned red...
Assuming that the extremely low percentage of MMO players that are active in online communities are likely to be the best is quite naive... but you're not just assuming, you've stated it as fact. *clap* *clap*
Then again, I am more interested in using a fun fighting style that fits my gameplay then to use a maximize damage build.
Metabattle has not done anything wrong, if they designed the game better, there would be far more options open, but they didn't, so, in reality there really is "meta" builds and ways to play that vastly over power other builds and ways to play.
If you want balanced PvP, play an MOBA, GW2 is a PvE MMO that put in some PvP to try and attract a larger player base.
and to all those "if you don't want to play max level, or simply can't, you don't have to, yoyu can do less dmg" weenies: if you don't want to think about how you play your char best, then go and read a webpage about how to be the best
i am suuuure no one else does this, so your advantage will be totaly huge!
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
But again, I don't run any "Meta" builds and I currently sit at mid tier gold, and I have probably only played about 15 matches with several different classes in this current ranked season.
Prior to HoT I was ranked in the top 50. I left GW2 for a while came back at different points, and generally end my rankings around platinum during each season as I spend time playing other game modes more these days.
GW2 does have balance issues, they always have really, and it only gets exacerbated when they add new specializations and it all gets thrown out of wack when they introduce balance patches.
But one of the benefits of playing builds that I create is that most of the time, the builds still work because those aren't the builds getting balanced.
People complain about "over powered" Meta Battle builds because they have specific builds to complain about, and those are the builds that are "balanced" the next patch. It's just as easy to say that MetaBattle is the cause of some of the poor PvP balancing choices made over the past few years, because it encourages players to use certain builds in a certain way regardless of personal effectiveness.
But if everyone is using "Bunker Druid" rangers or "Greatsword/Dagger Spellbreaker" warriors, then that's what people getting beat by them will complain about.
Metagame should just be treated as another way of saying trend, with highly "rated" meta-defining builds shaping everything around them. Why? The complexity of games makes them difficult to balance, let alone perfectly, which is why such trends do appear. Did you honestly buy into the pipe dream that "everyhing is viable if you're good enough?" Tell that to a chess grandmaster as you boldly experiment with your original openers, and then you lose repeatedly. Trends that are espoused by hundreds of thousands of players of all skill levels that change little over long periods (read: years) are unlikely to be broken, and particularly for games with little in the way of customization, such as GW2.
To argue against such trends is as pointless as swearing at the sun for rising daily; it simply happens. You can be that special snowflake I meet in every game and try to do your own masturbatory thing because you are just so much more creative, but the truth is that such players never end up anywhere close to being competitive. They'll certainly write articles as a way of dealing with the cognitive dissonance resulting from their poor results, however.
Whoever greenlit this piece should be as embarrassed as the author.