Credit card debt is because people are just flat out dumb.....They think because they make 50k a year that they can spend freely and thats just not the case.....I see so many people with 500k houses and a 50k car and just know they are in big debt.
If the game is not hosted in Belgium and the hosting companies have no business presence in Belgium, how can they fall under belgium law?
example a chinese mmo hosted in china that a cirizen in Belgium decides to connect to and play.
Internet is global, how can one country like Belgium enforce laws on foreign companies, when everyone has the freedom to connect to any server globally?
1. It's European Law
2. European law has a say whats sold to Europeans
3. If the studio doesn't play ball, its games may be declared illegal and their sale forbidden in Europe
4. Brussels (capital of Belgium) runs the European Union
Buy currency in game for example diamonds diamonds hold no real dollar value.
Diamonds can also be earned free in game - used just to say it's an in game currency can be obtained free.
Diamonds are then used to purchase loot boxes thus are no longer bought for real money?
Would loop hole be legal since games like arche age are not talked about?
Games like ArcheAge are not talked about because they're not being investigated. They did not investigate every game on the planet, just some of the AAA games.
Who'd thought Europeans were so easily mollified by platitudes. Yeah, you guys are serious about the problem.
Its a start, like most starts it does not go far enough.
"This subject has felt like a waste of time since it was started.
Kids shouldn't be allowed to have access to credit cards it's the parents fault and people who get easily addicted need to be watched by their friends and family and not expect gaming companies to babysit."
I'm too lazy to do any research, but with a huge amount of confidence I am making the claim that the majority of people purchasing these lootboxes are not children, but full fledged adults with jobs to support it. As for your statement about addicts needing friends and family while big companies shouldn't have to care is way off. Granted, friends and family should play more involvement than most addicts currently have, but saying huge companies shouldn't be held accountable for tragedies that befall people by using their products is complete BS. Companies shouldn't have to "babysit", but they should certainly care about how their products affect people and if they can do better, they should.
"I personally have bought a loot box literally only once and it was in Path of Exile after I had leftover points that I didn't need. I'm mentioning this because I want to point out that I don't care if lootboxes are in the games or not because I don't buy any, but it still feels stupid removing them because people don't care for their friends and family."
I'm not entirely sure of your point here. You bought a lootbox once, so everyone should listen to your opinion and leave lootboxes in the game. Because you don't apparently have an addictive personality, everyone else should suffer?
"Also as it was already mentioned there is a workaround if they put currency that you can buy and use that currency to buy boxes afterwards."
Workarounds don't solve the problem - It's just a slimy way of dealing with it on the companies side of things to avoid regulation. The problem still exists.
"Also I would love to see how Belgium will imprison "Blizzard" for example... It feels like they are misunderstanding that companies stand behind this and not one single person lol. Good luck actually suing and winning a case against any big gaming company. "
I'm not even going to answer this. I smell a troll... or possibly a low end IQ?
"If I was Blizzard I would just IP block Belgium ips and see if the government is happy with that. Of course this is a really shitty move because there is no reason to punish players that have nothing to do with this, but I personally can't imagine Blizzard removing lootboxes from Overwatch. Same with CS:GO and FIFA. Why would they when that's where all their money comes from."
IP block is ridiculous and will not happen. Again, not sure if you're a troll or not. Lootboxes are not where all of their money comes from, but probably a large majority of it. That being said, games have degraded over the years to the point that they are designing games around lootboxes to entice addicts and are making poor overall products because of it.
On a side note: Hypothetically, lets say you have a child with an addiction issue. Regardless of how often you assist and help, do you really want companies waving their addictive properties in front of your child all the time? Do you really think you can always be there for your child? People need to be held accountable, friends, family, the gamers, and the companies.
"And one last thing. Removing the boxes won't really solve anything because then gaming companies will just release expensive skins nonstop and I'm pretty sure that 'people at risk" and kids will waste money buying each one, so nothing will change."
Invalid point. If you buy a skin from the game, you spend X money to gain Y item. Same as going to the store to purchase groceries or whatever. Lootboxes are NOT like that, at all. You purchase a lootbox to maybe get the item you want. MAYBE. There was a mobile game I used to play, with something similar to lootboxes to obtain rare characters, I believe the chances were something like 0.5% chance to gain one of the better characters. Having a CHANCE at gaining an item you want by purchasing something is gambling, period.
To their benefit, the items to get these characters were farmable in the game, so you didn't have to spend real money.
I have been working with youth and their addictions for several years now. It is not easy, and having companies willing to risk lives just to make a buck is seriously disgusting. I'm disturbed that you believe lootboxes are not an issue. The points you are making here are narrow minded, selfish, and in some instances are flat out wrong. However, I hope you take time to read this and maybe learn something. Good luck.
Damn right and we have left the Belgians to lead the charge, where are our governments in this?
Most congressmen probably couldn't tell you what a loot box is. They'll get around to banning them sometime around 2030, a few years after the industry mostly abandons them in favor of something even worse.
If the game is not hosted in Belgium and the hosting companies have no business presence in Belgium, how can they fall under belgium law?
example a chinese mmo hosted in china that a cirizen in Belgium decides to connect to and play.
Internet is global, how can one country like Belgium enforce laws on foreign companies, when everyone has the freedom to connect to any server globally?
1. It's European Law
2. European law has a say whats sold to Europeans
3. If the studio doesn't play ball, its games may be declared illegal and their sale forbidden in Europe
4. Brussels (capital of Belgium) runs the European Union
But the chinese company is not selling anything in europe - it's hosting an online game *IN CHINA*.
Lets say the game has a big warning - THIS GAME IS ONLY INTENDED FOR CHINESE PLAYERS -
The company has no presence in Europe whatsoever - how can a company control who logs into the game - just because one country somewhere else decides they have some laws about their own citizens - it's not their problem.
I think any MMO can just put a big warning - NO BELGIUM PLAYERS ALLOWED ON THESE SERVERS DUE TO " quote whatever law" - that way they are covered if anyone from Belgium uses VPN to bypass regional IP blocks.
Again the issue is for games that are not hosted in Belgium, and have no business presence in Belgium - just because someone decides to log into the game and bypass ip regional blocks and warnings - how can that company still be liable?
That's my point.
You can't control what each individual citizen will do - can't punish the company for end users still logging in despite all the laws and spending money, can you now?
So how can you really enforce this?
The law is not enforcable in reality for every game in existence.
I've heard plenty of people on these forums complaining about not being able to play a game because of region locks, so lets cut the crap.
If someone is using a vpn to circumvent the region lock, well thats' them breaking the law, not the video game company. It's not the video games companies fault or responsibility.
I sure as fuck wouldn't trust a company with my credit card information who willfully breaks another countries laws. IMHO a company like that can go fuck themselves.
About time and more countries need to adopt this attitude. I mean seriously we all know how these boxes and w/e fancy name we wish to give them work...
....there something in the box that is rare or/and that can only be acquired within at a small small small small chance to get so you pay real life money to be able to get/and/or open said boxes and hope you get it...kind of like a slot machine.
Now I don't care if they make you jump through loops and you have to buy turbine points,or ellun or w/e you are still gambling for a small chance to get said item and there no option to just go and buy that item.
To me that is gambling plain and simple doesn't matter how you justify it the basics of gambling is there and that doesn't belong in our video games period.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I hope someone here has an idea how games are going to replace the revenue stream that the loot boxes provide. If not a lot of games might be shutting down that people actually play.
So any card game with booster packs is dead for them. Maybe they could kill the physical ones too. What about baseball cards those are still blind open. This seems pretty dumb.
I dont know what to think of it. I hate lootboxes they are really bad but on the other hand if Belgium and The Netherlands (where i am from) are going to say that developers have to remove the lootboxes but the rest of the world doesnt ban them then developers are going to think fuck those 2 small countries its allowed at the rest of the world so we just wont release it in those 2 countries. That will bring the people from Belgium and The Netherlands in a really big disadvantage because we get less games then the rest of the world. And all my favorite games have Lootboxes in them, every MMO i play got them, Battlefield, CSGO and PUBG got lootboxes
And what if for example EA decides to not release the new battlefield in The Netherlands and Belgium then a lot of people will miss one of their favorite games.
And what about the current games? Will they block us from playing it? That would be even worse than lootboxes i dont want to get banned from playing my favorite games.
I never used a VPN before but if this is really going to happen in only The Netherlands and Belgium I am going to set up an VPN and i dont care if i break the law then because i want to keep playing my favorite games whethever or not there are lootboxes
Bottom line, it will only work if the whole world decides to ban lootboxes at once because i dont like the fact of being one of the only countries where lootboxes are against the law!
I hope The Netherlands and Belgium will just let it slip for now until more countries decide to ban lootboxes
I hope someone here has an idea how games are going to replace the revenue stream that the loot boxes provide. If not a lot of games might be shutting down that people actually play.
The excuse was thrown out the window a long time ago thanks to EA again, they said the removal of MTX won't affect anything and quite a few people have gone into detail about.
Overall point people made was MTX are a want not a need, if companies truly need MTX on top of all the other income streams they have i.e £50 box price, deluxe editions, collector editions and DLCs, then there's truly a problem.
I dont know what to think of it. I hate lootboxes they are really bad but on the other hand if Belgium and The Netherlands (where i am from) are going to say that developers have to remove the lootboxes but the rest of the world doesnt ban them then developers are going to think fuck those 2 small countries its allowed at the rest of the world so we just wont release it in those 2 countries. That will bring the people from Belgium and The Netherlands in a really big disadvantage because we get less games then the rest of the world. And all my favorite games have Lootboxes in them, every MMO i play got them, Battlefield, CSGO and PUBG got lootboxes
And what if for example EA decides to not release the new battlefield in The Netherlands and Belgium then a lot of people will miss one of their favorite games.
And what about the current games? Will they block us from playing it? That would be even worse than lootboxes i dont want to get banned from playing my favorite games.
I never used a VPN before but if this is really going to happen in only The Netherlands and Belgium I am going to set up an VPN and i dont care if i break the law then because i want to keep playing my favorite games whethever or not there are lootboxes
Bottom line, it will only work if the whole world decides to ban lootboxes at once because i dont like the fact of being one of the only countries where lootboxes are against the law!
I hope The Netherlands and Belgium will just let it slip for now until more countries decide to ban lootboxes
Somebody has to go first, if you waited for every country to agree to legislation about anything we would have no Geneva conventions for example. My hope is EA etc start to see the writing in the wall, but far more likely this going to be a battle all the way.
I dont know what to think of it. I hate lootboxes they are really bad but on the other hand if Belgium and The Netherlands (where i am from) are going to say that developers have to remove the lootboxes but the rest of the world doesnt ban them then developers are going to think fuck those 2 small countries its allowed at the rest of the world so we just wont release it in those 2 countries. That will bring the people from Belgium and The Netherlands in a really big disadvantage because we get less games then the rest of the world. And all my favorite games have Lootboxes in them, every MMO i play got them, Battlefield, CSGO and PUBG got lootboxes
And what if for example EA decides to not release the new battlefield in The Netherlands and Belgium then a lot of people will miss one of their favorite games.
And what about the current games? Will they block us from playing it? That would be even worse than lootboxes i dont want to get banned from playing my favorite games.
I never used a VPN before but if this is really going to happen in only The Netherlands and Belgium I am going to set up an VPN and i dont care if i break the law then because i want to keep playing my favorite games whethever or not there are lootboxes
Bottom line, it will only work if the whole world decides to ban lootboxes at once because i dont like the fact of being one of the only countries where lootboxes are against the law!
I hope The Netherlands and Belgium will just let it slip for now until more countries decide to ban lootboxes
Somebody has to go first, if you waited for every country to agree to legislation about anything we would have no Geneva conventions for example. My hope is EA etc start to see the writing in the wall, but far more likely this going to be a battle all the way.
@Scot yes someone has to go first but why not a big country like the US i mean Developers dont care as mutch if 2 small countries decide to ban them? They will just move on with their life and as i said they might even think screw those countries and not publish their game there
If the game is not hosted in Belgium and the hosting companies have no business presence in Belgium, how can they fall under belgium law?
example a chinese mmo hosted in china that a cirizen in Belgium decides to connect to and play.
Internet is global, how can one country like Belgium enforce laws on foreign companies, when everyone has the freedom to connect to any server globally?
1. It's European Law
2. European law has a say whats sold to Europeans
3. If the studio doesn't play ball, its games may be declared illegal and their sale forbidden in Europe
4. Brussels (capital of Belgium) runs the European Union
But the chinese company is not selling anything in europe - it's hosting an online game *IN CHINA*.
Lets say the game has a big warning - THIS GAME IS ONLY INTENDED FOR CHINESE PLAYERS -
The company has no presence in Europe whatsoever - how can a company control who logs into the game - just because one country somewhere else decides they have some laws about their own citizens - it's not their problem.
I think any MMO can just put a big warning - NO BELGIUM PLAYERS ALLOWED ON THESE SERVERS DUE TO " quote whatever law" - that way they are covered if anyone from Belgium uses VPN to bypass regional IP blocks.
Again the issue is for games that are not hosted in Belgium, and have no business presence in Belgium - just because someone decides to log into the game and bypass ip regional blocks and warnings - how can that company still be liable?
That's my point.
You can't control what each individual citizen will do - can't punish the company for end users still logging in despite all the laws and spending money, can you now?
So how can you really enforce this?
The law is not enforcable in reality for every game in existence.
I've heard plenty of people on these forums complaining about not being able to play a game because of region locks, so lets cut the crap.
If someone is using a vpn to circumvent the region lock, well thats' them breaking the law, not the video game company. It's not the video games companies fault or responsibility.
Using a VPN to circumvent the region lock does not break any laws.
At most you could be breaking the law by giving company false information on where you're connecting from, but I don't think using an VPN would be an act that qualifies even for that.
It might be illegal to sell lootboxes in Belgium, but that doesn't make buying those lootboxes in Belgium illegal.
I dont know what to think of it. I hate lootboxes they are really bad but on the other hand if Belgium and The Netherlands (where i am from) are going to say that developers have to remove the lootboxes but the rest of the world doesnt ban them then developers are going to think fuck those 2 small countries its allowed at the rest of the world so we just wont release it in those 2 countries. That will bring the people from Belgium and The Netherlands in a really big disadvantage because we get less games then the rest of the world. And all my favorite games have Lootboxes in them, every MMO i play got them, Battlefield, CSGO and PUBG got lootboxes
And what if for example EA decides to not release the new battlefield in The Netherlands and Belgium then a lot of people will miss one of their favorite games.
And what about the current games? Will they block us from playing it? That would be even worse than lootboxes i dont want to get banned from playing my favorite games.
I never used a VPN before but if this is really going to happen in only The Netherlands and Belgium I am going to set up an VPN and i dont care if i break the law then because i want to keep playing my favorite games whethever or not there are lootboxes
Bottom line, it will only work if the whole world decides to ban lootboxes at once because i dont like the fact of being one of the only countries where lootboxes are against the law!
I hope The Netherlands and Belgium will just let it slip for now until more countries decide to ban lootboxes
Somebody has to go first, if you waited for every country to agree to legislation about anything we would have no Geneva conventions for example. My hope is EA etc start to see the writing in the wall, but far more likely this going to be a battle all the way.
@Scot yes someone has to go first but why not a big country like the US i mean Developers dont care as mutch if 2 small countries decide to ban them? They will just move on with their life and as i said they might even think screw those countries and not publish their game there
You are getting worked up abut a possibility, other posters are pointing out that as it stands it may be easy to get around. And we can't just wait for the US, there are gaming companies in your country and mine.
If they decided to boycott countries which I really doubt, much as I like BF I can live without it. So far though the UK has given loot boxes a pass, I can only hope we wake up now that Belgium has.
I dont know what to think of it. I hate lootboxes they are really bad but on the other hand if Belgium and The Netherlands (where i am from) are going to say that developers have to remove the lootboxes but the rest of the world doesnt ban them then developers are going to think fuck those 2 small countries its allowed at the rest of the world so we just wont release it in those 2 countries. That will bring the people from Belgium and The Netherlands in a really big disadvantage because we get less games then the rest of the world. And all my favorite games have Lootboxes in them, every MMO i play got them, Battlefield, CSGO and PUBG got lootboxes
And what if for example EA decides to not release the new battlefield in The Netherlands and Belgium then a lot of people will miss one of their favorite games.
And what about the current games? Will they block us from playing it? That would be even worse than lootboxes i dont want to get banned from playing my favorite games.
I never used a VPN before but if this is really going to happen in only The Netherlands and Belgium I am going to set up an VPN and i dont care if i break the law then because i want to keep playing my favorite games whethever or not there are lootboxes
Bottom line, it will only work if the whole world decides to ban lootboxes at once because i dont like the fact of being one of the only countries where lootboxes are against the law!
I hope The Netherlands and Belgium will just let it slip for now until more countries decide to ban lootboxes
Somebody has to go first, if you waited for every country to agree to legislation about anything we would have no Geneva conventions for example. My hope is EA etc start to see the writing in the wall, but far more likely this going to be a battle all the way.
@Scot yes someone has to go first but why not a big country like the US i mean Developers dont care as mutch if 2 small countries decide to ban them? They will just move on with their life and as i said they might even think screw those countries and not publish their game there
You are getting worked up abut a possibility, other posters are pointing out that as it stands it may be easy to get around. And we can't just wait for the US, there are gaming companies in your country and mine.
If they decided to boycott countries which I really doubt much as I like BF I can live without it.
Well in the end i just hope the AAA companies (because they use the most Lootboxes) just wont boycott us. Because that is excactly what i am afraid of
I hope someone here has an idea how games are going to replace the revenue stream that the loot boxes provide. If not a lot of games might be shutting down that people actually play.
I've recently purchased GoW and I haven't even seen a sniff of a loot box or a MT for that matter.
I guess we'll have to wait and see how much money that game lost. I'll wager you that it makes a fortune.
I hope someone here has an idea how games are going to replace the revenue stream that the loot boxes provide. If not a lot of games might be shutting down that people actually play.
Unless they're a whale, chances are they haven't provided the devs enough revenue to have an opinion that counts.
If the game is not hosted in Belgium and the hosting companies have no business presence in Belgium, how can they fall under belgium law?
example a chinese mmo hosted in china that a cirizen in Belgium decides to connect to and play.
Internet is global, how can one country like Belgium enforce laws on foreign companies, when everyone has the freedom to connect to any server globally?
1. It's European Law
2. European law has a say whats sold to Europeans
3. If the studio doesn't play ball, its games may be declared illegal and their sale forbidden in Europe
4. Brussels (capital of Belgium) runs the European Union
But the chinese company is not selling anything in europe - it's hosting an online game *IN CHINA*.
Lets say the game has a big warning - THIS GAME IS ONLY INTENDED FOR CHINESE PLAYERS -
The company has no presence in Europe whatsoever - how can a company control who logs into the game - just because one country somewhere else decides they have some laws about their own citizens - it's not their problem.
I think any MMO can just put a big warning - NO BELGIUM PLAYERS ALLOWED ON THESE SERVERS DUE TO " quote whatever law" - that way they are covered if anyone from Belgium uses VPN to bypass regional IP blocks.
Again the issue is for games that are not hosted in Belgium, and have no business presence in Belgium - just because someone decides to log into the game and bypass ip regional blocks and warnings - how can that company still be liable?
That's my point.
You can't control what each individual citizen will do - can't punish the company for end users still logging in despite all the laws and spending money, can you now?
So how can you really enforce this?
The law is not enforcable in reality for every game in existence.
I've heard plenty of people on these forums complaining about not being able to play a game because of region locks, so lets cut the crap.
If someone is using a vpn to circumvent the region lock, well thats' them breaking the law, not the video game company. It's not the video games companies fault or responsibility.
Using a VPN to circumvent the region lock does not break any laws.
At most you could be breaking the law by giving company false information on where you're connecting from, but I don't think using an VPN would be an act that qualifies even for that.
It might be illegal to sell lootboxes in Belgium, but that doesn't make buying those lootboxes in Belgium illegal.
I totally get your drift, but that depends on the law and my meaning is that it would clear the company of any wrongdoing.
A company could also decline credit card transactions from the jurisdictions in question.
I am following up on this to see if anyone has seen an actual breakdown of WHY these lootboxes were considered gambling, whereas they were not before. The specific details are EXTREMELY important, because it does not affect just lootboxes.
For example, if these virtual goods were determined to have value (which past interpretations indicated that they did not), then the value of these goods could be written off against revenue. People would also have to claim them on their taxes, etc... There is a huge amount of possible secondary issues related to this change in the law.
I am following up on this to see if anyone has seen an actual breakdown of WHY these lootboxes were considered gambling, whereas they were not before. The specific details are EXTREMELY important, because it does not affect just lootboxes.
For example, if these virtual goods were determined to have value (which past interpretations indicated that they did not), then the value of these goods could be written off against revenue. People would also have to claim them on their taxes, etc... There is a huge amount of possible secondary issues related to this change in the law.
There's some kind of explanation in the link of the article. Using google translate: it's gambling if there's a game element, a bet that can lead to profit or loss, and chance has a role in the game.
Also it's not about considering these actions gambling now whereas they weren't considered before. The laws always been same, but officials can't be everywhere and evaluate everything so they haven't applied it to lootboxes before this.
It always amazed me that players fell for lootboxes....Any game where we had to pay real money for keys/chests I either didnt play or didn't fall for the gimick.
Comments
1. It's European Law
2. European law has a say whats sold to Europeans
3. If the studio doesn't play ball, its games may be declared illegal and their sale forbidden in Europe
4. Brussels (capital of Belgium) runs the European Union
Its a start, like most starts it does not go far enough.
If someone is using a vpn to circumvent the region lock, well thats' them breaking the law, not the video game company. It's not the video games companies fault or responsibility.
I sure as fuck wouldn't trust a company with my credit card information who willfully breaks another countries laws. IMHO a company like that can go fuck themselves.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
....there something in the box that is rare or/and that can only be acquired within at a small small small small chance to get so you pay real life money to be able to get/and/or open said boxes and hope you get it...kind of like a slot machine.
Now I don't care if they make you jump through loops and you have to buy turbine points,or ellun or w/e you are still gambling for a small chance to get said item and there no option to just go and buy that item.
To me that is gambling plain and simple doesn't matter how you justify it the basics of gambling is there and that doesn't belong in our video games period.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
And what if for example EA decides to not release the new battlefield in The Netherlands and Belgium then a lot of people will miss one of their favorite games.
And what about the current games? Will they block us from playing it? That would be even worse than lootboxes i dont want to get banned from playing my favorite games.
I never used a VPN before but if this is really going to happen in only The Netherlands and Belgium I am going to set up an VPN and i dont care if i break the law then because i want to keep playing my favorite games whethever or not there are lootboxes
Bottom line, it will only work if the whole world decides to ban lootboxes at once because i dont like the fact of being one of the only countries where lootboxes are against the law!
I hope The Netherlands and Belgium will just let it slip for now until more countries decide to ban lootboxes
Overall point people made was MTX are a want not a need, if companies truly need MTX on top of all the other income streams they have i.e £50 box price, deluxe editions, collector editions and DLCs, then there's truly a problem.
Somebody has to go first, if you waited for every country to agree to legislation about anything we would have no Geneva conventions for example. My hope is EA etc start to see the writing in the wall, but far more likely this going to be a battle all the way.
@Scot yes someone has to go first but why not a big country like the US i mean Developers dont care as mutch if 2 small countries decide to ban them? They will just move on with their life and as i said they might even think screw those countries and not publish their game there
At most you could be breaking the law by giving company false information on where you're connecting from, but I don't think using an VPN would be an act that qualifies even for that.
It might be illegal to sell lootboxes in Belgium, but that doesn't make buying those lootboxes in Belgium illegal.
If they decided to boycott countries which I really doubt, much as I like BF I can live without it. So far though the UK has given loot boxes a pass, I can only hope we wake up now that Belgium has.
I guess we'll have to wait and see how much money that game lost. I'll wager you that it makes a fortune.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
A company could also decline credit card transactions from the jurisdictions in question.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
For example, if these virtual goods were determined to have value (which past interpretations indicated that they did not), then the value of these goods could be written off against revenue. People would also have to claim them on their taxes, etc... There is a huge amount of possible secondary issues related to this change in the law.
Also it's not about considering these actions gambling now whereas they weren't considered before. The laws always been same, but officials can't be everywhere and evaluate everything so they haven't applied it to lootboxes before this.
France said non in a display of Unity, Assassin's Creed style. badumpishhh
Ahem, Yeahhhh, I'll see myself out...