FEAR is the thing that MMO's are missing

Alasti · May 2018

I played literally thousands of hours on several early MMORPG's such as Ultima Online, Everquest, etc. I LOVED them! I have concluded that the reason I loved them so was NOT because it was easy to get to the end-game, but because it was HARD! It was hard because if/when I died, there was a consequence...a consequence that I feared. In Ultima Online, death meant anyone could loot your corpse...or at the very least, the monster actually grabbed an item off your body and you had to go kill the monster to get it back. In Everquest, when you died, you had to go do a corpse-run...sometimes at the bottom of a dungeon. I FEARED that!! And it was a rush to play every moment in a dungeon BECAUSE of that fear. To succeed in a dungeon meant a LOT. Nowadays, in almost all MMO's, there is no fear...if I die...bleh...so what...

I miss the fear of death...doesn't have to be perma death...doesn't mean you have to lose all your stuff...but death has to be something I fear for me to stick with a game...otherwise...its all Chutes and Ladders....

Cryomatrix · May 2018

Try path of exile in hardcore mode. It is the best way to play that game.

Octagon7711 · May 2018

Move some expensive cargo across Eve Online.

Dibdabs · May 2018

Octagon7711 said:

Move some expensive cargo across Eve Online.

God yes... that REALLY gets the adrenaline racing!

The only other game to inspire an adrenaline rush for me was Everquest, especially on corpse runs in Nektulos Forest, made more difficult by the fact I had died so many times already that even if I found my corpse it might not be the one with my stuff on it.

No ingame maps, no corpse markers, scary noises, dark mist and totally lost. Great times.

Theocritus · May 2018

I don't know if we will ever see a game like classic EQ again because the modern post WoW player wouldn't be able to handle that.....Like the OP said many corpse runs were hard.....You had to be very careful not to die in a bad spot....I ended up deleting a max level character because he died in such a bad spot....The modern gamer is very spoiled with very easy death mechanics.

Xiaoki · May 2018

ikcin said:

It is not the fear, but the challenge. When you win in PvE of PvP, you know that win matters. Your choices have consequences, and that makes the game meaningful. The post WoW games are solo easy, totally pointless.

Theres nothing in an MMO that has "meaning", all MMOs are inherently pointless.

But, if you want challenge then how about we make every single mob a raid mob that takes 20 to 40 people an hour to defeat and yields .01% experience. Also, if you die your account is deleted.

Would that be enough challenge to make you think what you're doing has "meaning".

Brimstonelov · May 2018

I think fear as a missing emotion is quite tangible. My first, and thus still favorite MMO was FFXI. And while there was no permadeath, one lost chunks of experience every time they died, so it was quite easy to delevel. As well, if you didn't remember to set your homepoint when you were out 'adventuring' it was quite easy for your character to respawn hours away from your location of death! Items like this made be very leery and cautious while playing the game, which I love.

Octagon7711 · May 2018

The worse was when the thermal compound failed. My pc would overheat during peak gaming and shut down.

Now that I think about it, that's probably what got me in the habit of keeping a laptop as backup.

delete5230 · May 2018

It seems most all of us are getting on target because of the crap we've been handed for the past several years.

No one likes mindless unless your 5.

Octagon7711 · May 2018

There was also nothing as exciting as seeing a red named player coming after you from out of nowhere while playing L2.

Mackaveli44 · May 2018

Theocritus said:

I don't know if we will ever see a game like classic EQ again because the modern post WoW player wouldn't be able to handle that.....Like the OP said many corpse runs were hard.....You had to be very careful not to die in a bad spot....I ended up deleting a max level character because he died in such a bad spot....The modern gamer is very spoiled with very easy death mechanics.

Yep, and its unfortunate.

Not only easy death mechanics but other parts of these modern mmo's spoil players with easy to come by stuff like gear... It's a sad time for MMO's right now. I actually do not envy developers right now in this current state. It goes 1 of 2 ways; Developers make their game with only $$$$$$ in mind or 2. Developers make a game for the spoiled rotten children in mind which results in a game that has zero sense of accomplishment in it because everything is handed to its players on a silver player, so very easily.

Xiaoki · May 2018

Brimstonelov said:

I think fear as a missing emotion is quite tangible. My first, and thus still favorite MMO was FFXI. And while there was no permadeath, one lost chunks of experience every time they died, so it was quite easy to delevel. As well, if you didn't remember to set your homepoint when you were out 'adventuring' it was quite easy for your character to respawn hours away from your location of death! Items like this made be very leery and cautious while playing the game, which I love.

Yeah, I remember playing FF11 at launch and what a horrible experience that was.

The fear of death that you so love caused people to fight the easiest mobs with the most optimal group.

If you wanted to fight mobs off the beaten path then SCREW YOU
Or if you were a class that was deemed non-optimal then SCREW YOU
If you made a mistake, especially at high levels, then SCREW YOU

And people wonder why WoW became so popular

iixviiiix · May 2018

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

I also remember the fear of disconnections during a fight, which happened quite often back then with the crappy modems.

A lag spike or a disconnection, and you lose all your gear because of something you have no control on. Great mechanism, really.

</sarcasm>

I know how it feel when few hours of grind lost because of disconnection .
I hardly enjoy stress gameplay when playing MMORPG , prefer something relax with people instead . Something we can laugh it off and continue to playing .

Captainblackjack · May 2018

MMO's now are focused on everyone feeling like a hero without the hero's challenge. Most companies choose profit over progress.

Slapshot1188 · May 2018

ikcin said:

Xiaoki said:

Brimstonelov said:

I think fear as a missing emotion is quite tangible. My first, and thus still favorite MMO was FFXI. And while there was no permadeath, one lost chunks of experience every time they died, so it was quite easy to delevel. As well, if you didn't remember to set your homepoint when you were out 'adventuring' it was quite easy for your character to respawn hours away from your location of death! Items like this made be very leery and cautious while playing the game, which I love.

Yeah, I remember playing FF11 at launch and what a horrible experience that was.

The fear of death that you so love caused people to fight the easiest mobs with the most optimal group.

If you wanted to fight mobs off the beaten path then SCREW YOU
Or if you were a class that was deemed non-optimal then SCREW YOU
If you made a mistake, especially at high levels, then SCREW YOU

And people wonder why WoW became so popular

This is the PvE - PvP server issue. Why more people in WoW play on PvE servers? Because they get the same rewards with lower risk. Pretty logical behavior.

Designing games for the greatest common denominator has left us with games almost nobody likes. Otherwise we wouldn’t still be referencing WoW.

Scot · May 2018

As the OP alludes to there is a middle ground between permadeath and the easymode no penalty design we have now. For me looting goes to far but penalties like a small xp loss or enforced down time are fine.

Cryolitycal · May 2018

I personally never liked these penalties. I would love longer leveling though, but when shit hits the fan and your main is nerfed and the guild needs a warlock instead of a mage, you gonna hate that. So there's a downside to that.

Anyway, always played MMO for basically 2 things. Experiencing the journey to max level/story, and raiding. I really don't like farming stuff forever, having to do too many chores and penalties for dying (that could cost you your gear? Seriously? No way). Horrible penalties for dying means raiding sucks, as you gonna die hundreds of times. XP loss? No effing way.

MMORPGs are limited in content. After a pretty short while you're left with the endgame, so that needs to be amazing.

If you want danger play a PvP server.

iixviiiix · May 2018

ikcin said:

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

The PvE - PvP server issue is more about most "sane" people not enjoying being ganked, graveyard camped, etc... by people 10+ levels higher than they are without a chance to fight back.

PvP is not the problem, see the success of non-MMORPG PvP games. The problem is the imbalance and the total inability to fight back. Gank them one, ok, twice, they get bored of it, three times and they leave for a PvE server.

But it is not. So called ganking is a risk. You have pretty delusional idea for the video games, and how real people badly suffer in them. It is not about the PvP, it is about the risk/reward. If you can get the same reward for lower risk, why would not you? And the PvP is always risker, because the people are smarter than the AI (well most of them at least).
Make a PvE server in L2 for example - there is also ganking, there were attempts for such private servers. Nobody played on them. As the main goals in the L2 are PvP related. There you do not progress for solo achievements with solo quests, to get some gear meanwhile. You grind like idiot to become competitive to the other players. So - singleplayer vs multiplayer, risk vs reward. That is how the games work.

Most people did PK in L2 regret about it . That's why they did not kill other "for fun" , or at lease at earlier game , i don't know about later patches though .

I rather use PK instead of PVP because PVP wasn't only about PK .

AlBQuirky · May 2018

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

I also remember the fear of disconnections during a fight, which happened quite often back then with the crappy modems.

A lag spike or a disconnection, and you lose all your gear because of something you have no control on. Great mechanism, really.

</sarcasm>

I know it was sarcasm, but why not re-implement it now, with the very much improved internet connectivity these days. Some folks are getting 1GB up now and after fighting with my own local company for about 6 months, finally got a consistent 200+MB/s up.

You know, make use of improved technology?

Scorchien · May 2018

OP is spot on and altho i have Maxed lv and participated in every MMO known to man .. (laughing Nearly)

I still play UO for 20 years now because it still today offers the best risk/reward and danger of any MMO on the Market ..

AlBQuirky · May 2018

Octagon7711 said:

Move some expensive cargo across Eve Online.

Wouldn't almost any open world PvP MMO accomplish the same thing? It's not "the game" that is hard, it the other players making it so, right?

How is EVE's PvE? I found it boring as all get out when I tried their 14 day trial. Heck, I didn't even stay logged in. I'd give orders and instead of sitting there watching my skills or whatever go slowly up, I'd log out, play something else , and log back the next day. Not an ounce of fear engaged.

That was just my experience, though. I'm sure EVE's fans have quite a different one.

delete5230 · May 2018

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

AlBQuirky said:

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

I also remember the fear of disconnections during a fight, which happened quite often back then with the crappy modems.

A lag spike or a disconnection, and you lose all your gear because of something you have no control on. Great mechanism, really.

</sarcasm>

I know it was sarcasm, but why not re-implement it now, with the very much improved internet connectivity these days. Some folks are getting 1GB up now and after fighting with my own local company for about 6 months, finally got a consistent 200+MB/s up.

You know, make use of improved technology?

I have fiber with 1gb down 300 mb up. You can still die from loss of connection with the server for whatever Internet reason.

My point is, I don't think too harsh death penalties are appropriate for MMORPGs. It only discourages exploration. Balanced is the magic world.

At the end of the day, ANY death penalty is about making you lose some time. Having lost hours or even days of progression, or all your equipment, just because of some random event you don't always control. That's bad design. Even worse when some random asshole coward can do it to you without any risk just because he's a few levels higher than you.

I agree that you shouldn't loose too much time. Also it shouldn't be a penalty when your group is counting on you to come back to life, this could cause unneeded resentments.

I like the idea that too much injury you would need to see a doctor at some point. (kind of like repair). Infact this could open the doors to a new profession. See a doctor for exhaustion, broken legs, bleeding.... Even HIV, sorry only kidding..... or am I ?

Flyte27 · May 2018

Part of the issue is that times have changed. The same thing can be said of other genres. When they first come out everyone is exciting and the thing has a great deal of value. A good example would be computers. Once they were quite valuable, but not the market is flooded and their value has dropped a large amount. The could be said of chemistry, music, or toilets, or just about any invention in it's inception. MMOs were valuable to people when they first came out. People played them with a seriousness and dedication that is not seen today due to the influx of MMOs available. Even if there is a MMO similar in style to the early MMOs it won't hold the same value and dedication from the player base due to the current over saturation of the MMO and video game market. It's also in part because it's not a new idea anymore. People just aren't excited about it in the same way. Even if it's new younger players.

postlarval · May 2018

ikcin said:

Looks like at 0:40 the game actually started being fun.

Scot · May 2018

ikcin said:

Scot said:

As the OP alludes to there is a middle ground between permadeath and the easymode no penalty design we have now. For me looting goes to far but penalties like a small xp loss or enforced down time are fine.

Full loot may be frustrating. But some loot is necessary for any MMORPG. That makes the PvP meaningful. I do not fight with you to count some fights, or you to lose some xp. I fight for your gear (well part of it), for your farming spot, for your castle. Or, the whole pointless fighting shall be removed, and to make a dress up competition instead for example - my armor is fancier, I win - is some kind of competition too.

You can get gold for winning a PvP match, that's looting. If it comes from the player beaten there should be limits if its from there "battle insurance" that's not so much of a concern.

To give a historical example defeated knights could lose their armour, but have it back if they gave their word to pay a ransom. This is how many people fought for real in the past.

You mentioned farming spot, well of course you got that, the guy defeated is not there anymore. When it comes to regional conflict that's far more complex, a set up like daoc is my preferred option.

TheScavenger · May 2018

I too enjoy being smashed with a brick in the head every time I die in an MMO. I also like to put myself in an electric chair every time I lose a fight, to make it really dangerous. Anything less and that is just too carebear.

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FEAR is the thing that MMO's are missing

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"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

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FEAR is the thing that MMO's are missing

Comments

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey