The problem here is learning to seperate RL from internet .. Do you really have the same emotion invested in my comments as your wifes .. Get a grip
2nd.. This yard the (Internet) cannot be cleaned by anyone ...EVER ..so either learn to block and filter or get shit on and cry .. simple as that ..
Newsflash, it's all real life.
All this "the internet is not real life" is more about kids (of any age) trying to make excuses for their crappy behavior. You can choose how you represent yourself and all the anonymity of the internet does is, currently, to allow you to be how you truly want to be seen without any repercussions as long as you don't break any local laws.
I'm pretty sure if you start seriously threatening specific people on forums you will eventually be found and at least questioned.
Secondly, we don't know what the internet is going to be in 10 or even 20 years. It's certainly very different from 10 years ago. And since commerce is what is going to drive a good deal of internet use, it's going to be in the interest of those involved to make sure that commerce isn't interrupted.
If net neutrality is truly gone and internet usage is going to be tracked and measured, I'm fairly certain that people will eventually be "known" tracked and measured.
You say no one will "clean it up" but we seem to be seeing various companies with various sites showing various people the door.
So perhaps the best you can hope for is to frequent very private forums/areas of the internet where like minded people congregate to shit on each other.
Have fun in your new home!
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You don't need to change "the internet" over night. It's about taking small yet significant steps. I've changed city districts with +400k population which getting raped was just having a bad day or getting knifed was as common and as traumatic as getting a bad haircut. I didn't try to change the world, I did my own part and I did it right and it worked.
Problem is the owner of these virtual worlds don't care much. When they do, things start to change. For instance, League of Legends introduced this Honor system which punishes bad behavior and rewards good behavior. Their community has improved drastically in the past 2 seasons. It's a F2P game and you can create an account with fake names and everything. Yet they could improve their community.
Again, ignoring it won't fix it. And like every other issue our species has faced before and resolved or tried to improve it, it was done through thinking, conversations, new ideas, and years of efforts.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
The problem here is learning to seperate RL from internet .. Do you really have the same emotion invested in my comments as your wifes .. Get a grip
2nd.. This yard the (Internet) cannot be cleaned by anyone ...EVER ..so either learn to block and filter or get shit on and cry .. simple as that ..
Newsflash, it's all real life.
All this "the internet is not real life" is more about kids (of any age) trying to make excuses for their crappy behavior. You can choose how you represent yourself and all the anonymity of the internet does is, currently, to allow you to be how you truly want to be seen without any repercussions as long as you don't break any local laws.
I'm pretty sure if you start seriously threatening specific people on forums you will eventually be found and at least questioned.
Secondly, we don't know what the internet is going to be in 10 or even 20 years. It's certainly very different from 10 years ago. And since commerce is what is going to drive a good deal of internet use, it's going to be in the interest of those involved to make sure that commerce isn't interrupted.
If net neutrality is truly gone and internet usage is going to be tracked and measured, I'm fairly certain that people will eventually be "known" tracked and measured.
You say no one will "clean it up" but we seem to be seeing various companies with various sites showing various people the door.
So perhaps the best you can hope for is to frequent very private forums/areas of the internet where like minded people congregate to shit on each other.
Have fun in your new home!
Again a very far reach .. ..
Ok Maybe we should not use the term RL .. as more RL encounters and in-person encounters ..
And again we have another far reaching example of SERIOUSLY THREATINING now ...LOL wtf of course that is something completly different now than what the topic is about now Isnt it ...
The subject is Empathy in Gaming and you guys keep trying to equate all these extremes and In_Person situations to drive your narrative that change is needed ..
Now i would agree that it would be great if you could get people to change the way the act in games (Is what the TOPIC is)
But no degree or level of tracking can or will ever have any effect on GAMING situations .. and on forums like this one .. Its just feasible with 0 accountability ....
And again what you we arte discussing here is Emapthy in Gaming .. you are not going to clean that up .. Unless of course you take your final line and resort to private servers ..
You don't need to change "the internet" over night. It's about taking small yet significant steps. I've changed city districts with +400k population which getting raped was just having a bad day or getting knifed was as common and as traumatic as getting a bad haircut. I didn't try to change the world, I did my own part and I did it right and it worked.
Problem is the owner of these virtual worlds don't care much. When they do, things start to change. For instance, League of Legends introduced this Honor system which punishes bad behavior and rewards good behavior. Their community has improved drastically in the past 2 seasons. It's a F2P game and you can create an account with fake names and everything. Yet they could improve their community.
Again, ignoring it won't fix it. And like every other issue our species has faced before and resolved or tried to improve it, it was done through thinking, conversations, new ideas, and years of efforts.
So here we go with another .. In-Person compoarison .. where peoples real names and Lives are factored in and they actual have a very real vested interest in bettering themselves and survival .. And you want to equate that to Internet Gaming personas and activities...
Im sorry but Out of Touch is an understatement here ..
And LOL went from a really Toxic fucked up communtiy to just a shitty commuity .. ..and guess what that system has also been exploited to hell and back by the same people you arr trtying to punish .. aint that rich ...
Listen man , im all for people acting better .. and i always treat everyone in games really well ..
But it will never happen unless your Wow acct includes your name and adress.. now none of us want that do we................
That is the ONLY way you can get people to change in Gaming .. this is the TOPIC again before someone introduces the denuclearization of NK as an option
IDK if lack of empathy is what's wrong with PVP in MMOs. IMO it has more to do with respect for the game world and the immersion resulting from that respect.
I think back to DAoC which to me is still the gold standard of PVP games, and newer games (ESO for example) that have tied to recreate the fun that RvR was in that game month after month and I see both, a different type of gamer and developers missing the point of why it was so engaging. But mostly I see an emphasis on the gaminess of it at the expense of immersive legitimacy.
Commitment to a side and no way to change it for that server. You were either Alb, Hib or Mid for life on your server. ESO half-assed that by giving you an out that just cost a small amount of PVP currency. Your side is doing poorly? Don't sweat it. Switch to the winning side with one of your alts. After all it's only a game.
Separation from the other 2 alien realms. In DAoC you PVE'd with the same people you PVP'd with. You got to know them... you built relationships. ESO? No separate servers for PVE just one huge one. Unless you make play dates in your guilds you're always playing with strangers. Even the original division by alliance was eventually ditched because players wanted to play with friends and deciding together with friends to pick a side and stick to it is apparently, an insurmountable social problem in 2018. And, after all, it's only a game.
Well thought out social structures. DAoC had guilds and guilds could form alliances with other guilds and several alliances of guilds in your server made up your realm. There was a sense of belonging at all 3 of those levels and that fed right into the way players played the game. ESO? Belong to 5 guilds at once and BTW, those guilds are mostly about having a guild store so you can sell your loot. It's only a...
Yeah, DAoC was "only a game" also but both the mechanics and the social structures enabled and encouraged treating it with some respect, immersing and enjoying it more because of that. Players understood it and played within the limitations imposed because they got that the legitimacy of the game world depended on those limitations. ESO players spoke loud and clear: no limits for me! And they got the PVP they asked for in the end: an approximation of what made DAoC PVP great with better graphics better siege mechanics... and very little soul.
In ESO's defense, they almost certainly picked the wrong IP for a DAoC reboot. They totally underestimated that the attraction was all about it being a TES game and very little about it being an MMO with DAoC-like RvR. It still has better PvP than the vast majority of MMOs out there but that ain't saying much these days.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
IDK if lack of empathy is what's wrong with PVP in MMOs. IMO it has more to do with respect for the game world and the immersion resulting from that respect.
I think back to DAoC which to me is still the gold standard of PVP games, and newer games (ESO for example) that have tied to recreate the fun that RvR was in that game month after month and I see both, a different type of gamer and developers missing the point of why it was so engaging. But mostly I see an emphasis on the gaminess of it at the expense of immersive legitimacy.
Commitment to a side and no way to change it for that server. You were either Alb, Hib or Mid for life on your server. ESO half-assed that by giving you an out that just cost a small amount of PVP currency. Your side is doing poorly? Don't sweat it. Switch to the winning side with one of your alts. After all it's only a game.
Separation from the other 2 alien realms. In DAoC you PVE'd with the same people you PVP'd with. You got to know them... you built relationships. ESO? No separate servers for PVE just one huge one. Unless you make play dates in your guilds you're always playing with strangers. Even the original division by alliance was eventually ditched because players wanted to play with friends and deciding together with friends to pick a side and stick to it is apparently, an insurmountable social problem in 2018. And, after all, it's only a game.
Well thought out social structures. DAoC had guilds and guilds could form alliances with other guilds and several alliances of guilds in your server made up your realm. There was a sense of belonging at all 3 of those levels and that fed right into the way players played the game. ESO? Belong to 5 guilds at once and BTW, those guilds are mostly about having a guild store so you can sell your loot. It's only a...
Yeah, DAoC was "only a game" also but both the mechanics and the social structures enabled and encouraged treating it with some respect, immersing and enjoying it more because of that. Players understood it and played within the limitations imposed because they got that the legitimacy of the game world depended on those limitations. ESO players spoke loud and clear: no limits for me! And they got the PVP they asked for in the end: an approximation of what made DAoC PVP great with better graphics better siege mechanics... and very little soul.
In ESO's defense, they almost certainly picked the wrong IP for a DAoC reboot. They totally underestimated that the attraction was all about it being a TES game and very little about it being an MMO with DAoC-like RvR. It still has better PvP than the vast majority of MMOs out there but that ain't saying much these days.
Yup... that’s what I tried to say earlier but I think you did a better job explaining it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
IDK if lack of empathy is what's wrong with PVP in MMOs. IMO it has more to do with respect for the game world and the immersion resulting from that respect.
I think back to DAoC which to me is still the gold standard of PVP games, and newer games (ESO for example) that have tied to recreate the fun that RvR was in that game month after month and I see both, a different type of gamer and developers missing the point of why it was so engaging. But mostly I see an emphasis on the gaminess of it at the expense of immersive legitimacy.
Commitment to a side and no way to change it for that server. You were either Alb, Hib or Mid for life on your server. ESO half-assed that by giving you an out that just cost a small amount of PVP currency. Your side is doing poorly? Don't sweat it. Switch to the winning side with one of your alts. After all it's only a game.
Separation from the other 2 alien realms. In DAoC you PVE'd with the same people you PVP'd with. You got to know them... you built relationships. ESO? No separate servers for PVE just one huge one. Unless you make play dates in your guilds you're always playing with strangers. Even the original division by alliance was eventually ditched because players wanted to play with friends and deciding together with friends to pick a side and stick to it is apparently, an insurmountable social problem in 2018. And, after all, it's only a game.
Well thought out social structures. DAoC had guilds and guilds could form alliances with other guilds and several alliances of guilds in your server made up your realm. There was a sense of belonging at all 3 of those levels and that fed right into the way players played the game. ESO? Belong to 5 guilds at once and BTW, those guilds are mostly about having a guild store so you can sell your loot. It's only a...
Yeah, DAoC was "only a game" also but both the mechanics and the social structures enabled and encouraged treating it with some respect, immersing and enjoying it more because of that. Players understood it and played within the limitations imposed because they got that the legitimacy of the game world depended on those limitations. ESO players spoke loud and clear: no limits for me! And they got the PVP they asked for in the end: an approximation of what made DAoC PVP great with better graphics better siege mechanics... and very little soul.
In ESO's defense, they almost certainly picked the wrong IP for a DAoC reboot. They totally underestimated that the attraction was all about it being a TES game and very little about it being an MMO with DAoC-like RvR. It still has better PvP than the vast majority of MMOs out there but that ain't saying much these days.
Thise are some god points and community was better .. and the reason behind most of that is accountability .. Something that most of todays games lack .. Games that let you faction jump server jump etc .... it just give people the tools to act the fool.. Ill agree with this sentiment that the Social Structures in DAOC did help with all this , and something that DEvs could look at to help ..
But we got were we are by the forum babys crying tyhat they wanted to switch/sides/factions/servers .. And that has helped get the Gaming pvp situation into the mess it is today ..
The problem here is learning to seperate RL from internet .. Do you really have the same emotion invested in my comments as your wifes .. Get a grip
2nd.. This yard the (Internet) cannot be cleaned by anyone ...EVER ..so either learn to block and filter or get shit on and cry .. simple as that ..
Newsflash, it's all real life.
All this "the internet is not real life" is more about kids (of any age) trying to make excuses for their crappy behavior. You can choose how you represent yourself and all the anonymity of the internet does is, currently, to allow you to be how you truly want to be seen without any repercussions as long as you don't break any local laws.
I'm pretty sure if you start seriously threatening specific people on forums you will eventually be found and at least questioned.
Secondly, we don't know what the internet is going to be in 10 or even 20 years. It's certainly very different from 10 years ago. And since commerce is what is going to drive a good deal of internet use, it's going to be in the interest of those involved to make sure that commerce isn't interrupted.
If net neutrality is truly gone and internet usage is going to be tracked and measured, I'm fairly certain that people will eventually be "known" tracked and measured.
You say no one will "clean it up" but we seem to be seeing various companies with various sites showing various people the door.
So perhaps the best you can hope for is to frequent very private forums/areas of the internet where like minded people congregate to shit on each other.
Have fun in your new home!
Again a very far reach .. ..
Ok Maybe we should not use the term RL .. as more RL encounters and in-person encounters ..
And again we have another far reaching example of SERIOUSLY THREATINING now ...LOL wtf of course that is something completly different now than what the topic is about now Isnt it ...
The subject is Empathy in Gaming and you guys keep trying to equate all these extremes and In_Person situations to drive your narrative that change is needed ..
Now i would agree that it would be great if you could get people to change the way the act in games (Is what the TOPIC is)
But no degree or level of tracking can or will ever have any effect on GAMING situations .. and on forums like this one .. Its just feasible with 0 accountability ....
And again what you we arte discussing here is Emapthy in Gaming .. you are not going to clean that up .. Unless of course you take your final line and resort to private servers ..
so........... Have fun... in yer new... home ...
Yes, in person encounters is a better way to say it. And as long as you recognize that there is a difference between being "salty" and "seriously threatening" then I think we both can agree.
However, there seems to be a disconnect to how one acts "in person" and for some people "how one acts when they are not in person".
My disconnect is that I act the same in person as I do when I connect "not in person".
But apparently some people don't do that. And that's an interesting study I can tell you.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The problem here is learning to seperate RL from internet .. Do you really have the same emotion invested in my comments as your wifes .. Get a grip
2nd.. This yard the (Internet) cannot be cleaned by anyone ...EVER ..so either learn to block and filter or get shit on and cry .. simple as that ..
Newsflash, it's all real life.
All this "the internet is not real life" is more about kids (of any age) trying to make excuses for their crappy behavior. You can choose how you represent yourself and all the anonymity of the internet does is, currently, to allow you to be how you truly want to be seen without any repercussions as long as you don't break any local laws.
I'm pretty sure if you start seriously threatening specific people on forums you will eventually be found and at least questioned.
Secondly, we don't know what the internet is going to be in 10 or even 20 years. It's certainly very different from 10 years ago. And since commerce is what is going to drive a good deal of internet use, it's going to be in the interest of those involved to make sure that commerce isn't interrupted.
If net neutrality is truly gone and internet usage is going to be tracked and measured, I'm fairly certain that people will eventually be "known" tracked and measured.
You say no one will "clean it up" but we seem to be seeing various companies with various sites showing various people the door.
So perhaps the best you can hope for is to frequent very private forums/areas of the internet where like minded people congregate to shit on each other.
Have fun in your new home!
Again a very far reach .. ..
Ok Maybe we should not use the term RL .. as more RL encounters and in-person encounters ..
And again we have another far reaching example of SERIOUSLY THREATINING now ...LOL wtf of course that is something completly different now than what the topic is about now Isnt it ...
The subject is Empathy in Gaming and you guys keep trying to equate all these extremes and In_Person situations to drive your narrative that change is needed ..
Now i would agree that it would be great if you could get people to change the way the act in games (Is what the TOPIC is)
But no degree or level of tracking can or will ever have any effect on GAMING situations .. and on forums like this one .. Its just feasible with 0 accountability ....
And again what you we arte discussing here is Emapthy in Gaming .. you are not going to clean that up .. Unless of course you take your final line and resort to private servers ..
so........... Have fun... in yer new... home ...
Yes, in person encounters is a better way to say it. And as long as you recognize that there is a difference between being "salty" and "seriously threatening" then I think we both can agree.
However, there seems to be a disconnect to how one acts "in person" and for some people "how one acts when they are not in person".
My disconnect is that I act the same in person as I do when I connect "not in person".
But apparently some people don't do that. And that's an interesting study I can tell you.
I do to Sovrath , i act here and in game exactly as i do in person .. and with all the moral fiber my parents and Grandparents etc .. instilled in me ..
But i know that Many in game do not..
And as i said im not against fixing this problem .. But other than Iselins mention of DOAC Social/Server Structure , i havent seen any reasonable solutions , in this thread .. Just some far reaching examples of bad behavior and trying to associate it to Gaming persona activity .. Its not realistic in my eyes .. and not attached to any solution ...
Im really wondering if Iselin hit on something that has been taken for granted and overlooked .. But its all very true , The Social/Server structure of DAOC did instill a better community overall , we really started to see the slide into the cesspool we know now with LFD LFR, Server jumping /Faction jumping .. Name changing .. and more im certain im missing atm .. All these things are tools for people to act like Aholes ...
Maybe something Devs should look more closely at as a stepping stone ..
Im really wondering if Iselin hit on something that has been taken for granted and overlooked .. But its all very true , The Social/Server structure of DAOC did instill a better community overall , we really started to see the slide into the cesspool we know now with LFD LFR, Server jumping /Faction jumping .. Name changing .. and more im certain im missing atm .. All these things are tools for people to act like Aholes ...
Maybe something Devs should look more closely at as a stepping stone ..
IDK where it comes from. I'm just wondering along with everyone else.
But I do know that this week there's an active thread in the ESO forums from someone saying that he whispered the player who is currently Emperor in a Cyrodiil campaign and offered to pay him several gold crafting tempers (worth ~ 100k gold) if he would let him kill him so he could get the emperor killer achievement and the title and unique dye that go along with that. He thinks the emperor was selfish because he wouldn't go along with it... he's serious.
Tea-bagging (repeatedly squatting over a corpse's face) a fallen enemy is very common in Cyrodiil and the current ESO community is divided on whether it's an asshole thing to do or just funny.
Just a couple of examples from this week alone.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Empathy? if you have hurt feelings from playing in a PVP game then honestly you need help. Games are not reality, if a game is affecting your emotional stability then you really have to sit back and discuss that with someone who can help you.
It is pretty normal to have hurt feelings upon losing a game--doesn't matter if it's a video game or any other type of game.
I couldn't disagree more, its not normal. In games like CS:GO or even Overwatch and Fortnite i am disappointed sometimes if i perform badly, but thats more a case of me making mistakes that could have been avoided, my feelings are not hurt, if anything its just part of the learning process. I would say again, anyone whose emotional stability is negatively affected by a game, needs help, because it is not normal at all.
Empathy? if you have hurt feelings from playing in a PVP game then honestly you need help. Games are not reality, if a game is affecting your emotional stability then you really have to sit back and discuss that with someone who can help you.
It is pretty normal to have hurt feelings upon losing a game--doesn't matter if it's a video game or any other type of game.
I couldn't disagree more, its not normal. In games like CS:GO or even Overwatch and Fortnite i am disappointed sometimes if i perform badly, but thats more a case of me making mistakes that could have been avoided, my feelings are not hurt, if anything its just part of the learning process. I would say again, anyone whose emotional stability is negatively affected by a game, needs help, because it is not normal at all.
Empathy? if you have hurt feelings from playing in a PVP game then honestly you need help. Games are not reality, if a game is affecting your emotional stability then you really have to sit back and discuss that with someone who can help you.
It is pretty normal to have hurt feelings upon losing a game--doesn't matter if it's a video game or any other type of game.
I couldn't disagree more, its not normal. In games like CS:GO or even Overwatch and Fortnite i am disappointed sometimes if i perform badly, but thats more a case of me making mistakes that could have been avoided, my feelings are not hurt, if anything its just part of the learning process. I would say again, anyone whose emotional stability is negatively affected by a game, needs help, because it is not normal at all.
You can't set yourself as a reference when you are talking about people in general. Because you're one individual. My feelings don't get hurt neither but it doesn't matter. Losing hurts. It is even pretty common for a professional adult team to cry after a loss. Also having hurt feelings doesn't really mean one is no longer emotionally stable.
Well this is at least how I perceive you humans. You get hurt easily and you're always nagging. :P
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
from my perspective it'd have to be a combination of different things.
Empathy is important because its about how players interact with each other. whether you're talking about a pvp or a pve game, ive seen far too many people quit because of the community;
people feeling uncomfortable with meta-chasing randoms, gankfests right off the bat as you start the game, being killed while talking to npcs in town or just having people drop a herd of mobs on you.
Theres also the design part: balance is important and is hard to nail, and thats partly because with enough changes to balance one game can become something else entirely (the simplest comparison i can think of here is mu online where pirate-servers have their own set of balance because of the way they let the players handle their characters, with resetting stats and levels and whatnot, as opposed to the original game which introduces new features and its' own tweaks to maintain the balance)
Its also about the games' theme. you could have a mmorpg with pvp focus be something like planetside. just throw people into factions, let them have a character that can take on different classes with masteries and have them wreck each others' face because war.
or you could build a world for the players with quests and a huge map to do stuff in and crafting and raids like, say, world of wowcraft.
you wont satisfy everyone so you need to decide on the theme you want to balance yourself towards and build towards.
and moderation. where do the gms draw the line for a guild that throws too many punches in the face of newbies? do they get involved in territory fights where a guild decides to claim a farming spot as their own?
theres a lot more. saving pvp mmorpgs would require gamers as well as designers to build towards something that will satisfy both, and will be much more complex than saving pve mmorpgs which in my opinion are simply in danger of going the wrong direction with how the mobile markets' philosophy is leaking into the pc.
Empathy belongs in Bake Off not in PvP games, we are not baking cakes. Sportsmen like behaviour is what we should try to foster. Jumping up and down on an opponents corpse (in childish games that allow you to bunny hop) is the sort or silliness that should be called out.
Empathy belongs in Bake Off not in PvP games, we are not baking cakes. Sportsmen like behaviour is what we should try to foster. Jumping up and down on an opponents corpse (in childish games that allow you to bunny hop) is the sort or silliness that should be called out.
You play to win, not to empathise.
one would try to argue that empathy is part of sportsmanship
The ultimate truth of open world pvp MMOs is that wolves require sheep but sheep do not in any way require nor want wolves. It's a catch 22. Open world PvP actively makes the PvE experience worse, so there is no incentive to play such games unless you seek PvP.
The ultimate truth of open world pvp MMOs is that wolves require sheep but sheep do not in any way require nor want wolves. It's a catch 22. Open world PvP actively makes the PvE experience worse, so there is no incentive to play such games unless you seek PvP.
That’s certainly one perspective. But when I play... even PvE I enjoy the sense of danger. I have a few PvE friends that enjoy playing games with PvP even though they generally stick to crafting or spec pure PvE. It’s about overcoming challenges as a group. And believe me, they don’t consider themselves sheep and would be insulted by the term.
Someday, hopefully PvE will evolve beyond camping mob spawns or pulling guards one at a time from a hallway while the next guy stands 20 feet away obliviously staring at the wall. If they could react in an intelligent manner then it becomes hard to distinguish PvE from PvP and the question goes away.
Heck.. I’ve been killed by AI in games like Overwatch and never knew if it was a player or a bot (I’m not great at FPS...)
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I have a selfish point of view about PvP. I don't want to give another player the person the satisfaction of killing me. I refuse to give them that feeling of superiority so I don't engage in it if I can. NPCs can kill me but they are incapable of feeling good when they kill me but players can. So the only way I can deny other players the joy of winning is to not play.
My all time favourite show.
That does not mean I don't play PvP games I do I even played BDO. I just never gave anyone the chance to kill me. If I play any PvP game I will try my damnest to avoid PvP. I hunt in huge packs where the other side never has the chance to kill me or play on the side that has a huge faction imbalance so I never get attacked.
The ultimate truth of open world pvp MMOs is that wolves require sheep but sheep do not in any way require nor want wolves. It's a catch 22. Open world PvP actively makes the PvE experience worse, so there is no incentive to play such games unless you seek PvP.
That’s certainly one perspective. But when I play... even PvE I enjoy the sense of danger. I have a few PvE friends that enjoy playing games with PvP even though they generally stick to crafting or spec pure PvE. It’s about overcoming challenges as a group. And believe me, they don’t consider themselves sheep and would be insulted by the term.
Someday, hopefully PvE will evolve beyond camping mob spawns or pulling guards one at a time from a hallway while the next guy stands 20 feet away obliviously staring at the wall. If they could react in an intelligent manner then it becomes hard to distinguish PvE from PvP and the question goes away.
Heck.. I’ve been killed by AI in games like Overwatch and never knew if it was a player or a bot (I’m not great at FPS...)
I think the problem comes down to a lack of meaningful world objectives.
The best RvR system I've seen in my (limited) experience was in a fairly obscure (and unfortunately Pay to Win) Asian MMO - Aika Online. It worked through a temple system that allowed players to group together, enter opposing servers, steal relics from their temples, and bring them back to the portal in the center of the map to return to their server and bring the relic to their own temples before the opposing server (and their allies) can stop you. So, essentially, it was Capture the Flag on a grander scale and with significant bonuses to xp, gold find, and other reward multipliers with each relic your server currently holds.
In addition to a quality RvR objective, it also had a pretty good open world pvp system. Players could freely swap between PvE and PvP shards of their home server, with a large xp bonus on the PvP server. As far as I remember, the game didn't have significant PK penalties, but it did create danger for anyone attempting to hop to an opposing server and gank. Aside from having to enter/exit through the same predictable portal as everyone else, one would have to contend with patrolling pvp squads and strong guard npc's to get from zone to zone - especially low level zones.
Comments
All this "the internet is not real life" is more about kids (of any age) trying to make excuses for their crappy behavior. You can choose how you represent yourself and all the anonymity of the internet does is, currently, to allow you to be how you truly want to be seen without any repercussions as long as you don't break any local laws.
I'm pretty sure if you start seriously threatening specific people on forums you will eventually be found and at least questioned.
Secondly, we don't know what the internet is going to be in 10 or even 20 years. It's certainly very different from 10 years ago. And since commerce is what is going to drive a good deal of internet use, it's going to be in the interest of those involved to make sure that commerce isn't interrupted.
If net neutrality is truly gone and internet usage is going to be tracked and measured, I'm fairly certain that people will eventually be "known" tracked and measured.
You say no one will "clean it up" but we seem to be seeing various companies with various sites showing various people the door.
So perhaps the best you can hope for is to frequent very private forums/areas of the internet where like minded people congregate to shit on each other.
Have fun in your new home!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Problem is the owner of these virtual worlds don't care much. When they do, things start to change. For instance, League of Legends introduced this Honor system which punishes bad behavior and rewards good behavior. Their community has improved drastically in the past 2 seasons. It's a F2P game and you can create an account with fake names and everything. Yet they could improve their community.
Again, ignoring it won't fix it. And like every other issue our species has faced before and resolved or tried to improve it, it was done through thinking, conversations, new ideas, and years of efforts.
Ok Maybe we should not use the term RL .. as more RL encounters and in-person encounters ..
And again we have another far reaching example of SERIOUSLY THREATINING now ...LOL wtf of course that is something completly different now than what the topic is about now Isnt it ...
The subject is Empathy in Gaming and you guys keep trying to equate all these extremes and In_Person situations to drive your narrative that change is needed ..
Now i would agree that it would be great if you could get people to change the way the act in games (Is what the TOPIC is)
But no degree or level of tracking can or will ever have any effect on GAMING situations .. and on forums like this one .. Its just feasible with 0 accountability ....
And again what you we arte discussing here is Emapthy in Gaming .. you are not going to clean that up .. Unless of course you take your final line and resort to private servers ..
so........... Have fun... in yer new... home ...
Im sorry but Out of Touch is an understatement here ..
And LOL went from a really Toxic fucked up communtiy to just a shitty commuity .. ..and guess what that system has also been exploited to hell and back by the same people you arr trtying to punish .. aint that rich ...
Listen man , im all for people acting better .. and i always treat everyone in games really well ..
But it will never happen unless your Wow acct includes your name and adress.. now none of us want that do we................
That is the ONLY way you can get people to change in Gaming .. this is the TOPIC again before someone introduces the denuclearization of NK as an option
I think back to DAoC which to me is still the gold standard of PVP games, and newer games (ESO for example) that have tied to recreate the fun that RvR was in that game month after month and I see both, a different type of gamer and developers missing the point of why it was so engaging. But mostly I see an emphasis on the gaminess of it at the expense of immersive legitimacy.
Yeah, DAoC was "only a game" also but both the mechanics and the social structures enabled and encouraged treating it with some respect, immersing and enjoying it more because of that. Players understood it and played within the limitations imposed because they got that the legitimacy of the game world depended on those limitations. ESO players spoke loud and clear: no limits for me! And they got the PVP they asked for in the end: an approximation of what made DAoC PVP great with better graphics better siege mechanics... and very little soul.
In ESO's defense, they almost certainly picked the wrong IP for a DAoC reboot. They totally underestimated that the attraction was all about it being a TES game and very little about it being an MMO with DAoC-like RvR. It still has better PvP than the vast majority of MMOs out there but that ain't saying much these days.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But we got were we are by the forum babys crying tyhat they wanted to switch/sides/factions/servers .. And that has helped get the Gaming pvp situation into the mess it is today ..
However, there seems to be a disconnect to how one acts "in person" and for some people "how one acts when they are not in person".
My disconnect is that I act the same in person as I do when I connect "not in person".
But apparently some people don't do that. And that's an interesting study I can tell you.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
But i know that Many in game do not..
And as i said im not against fixing this problem .. But other than Iselins mention of DOAC Social/Server Structure , i havent seen any reasonable solutions , in this thread .. Just some far reaching examples of bad behavior and trying to associate it to Gaming persona activity .. Its not realistic in my eyes .. and not attached to any solution ...
Maybe something Devs should look more closely at as a stepping stone ..
But I do know that this week there's an active thread in the ESO forums from someone saying that he whispered the player who is currently Emperor in a Cyrodiil campaign and offered to pay him several gold crafting tempers (worth ~ 100k gold) if he would let him kill him so he could get the emperor killer achievement and the title and unique dye that go along with that. He thinks the emperor was selfish because he wouldn't go along with it... he's serious.
Tea-bagging (repeatedly squatting over a corpse's face) a fallen enemy is very common in Cyrodiil and the current ESO community is divided on whether it's an asshole thing to do or just funny.
Just a couple of examples from this week alone.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It's really very simply. Developers got lazy. Players got lazy.
You stay sassy!
Well this is at least how I perceive you humans. You get hurt easily and you're always nagging. :P
Empathy is important because its about how players interact with each other. whether you're talking about a pvp or a pve game, ive seen far too many people quit because of the community;
people feeling uncomfortable with meta-chasing randoms, gankfests right off the bat as you start the game, being killed while talking to npcs in town or just having people drop a herd of mobs on you.
Theres also the design part: balance is important and is hard to nail, and thats partly because with enough changes to balance one game can become something else entirely (the simplest comparison i can think of here is mu online where pirate-servers have their own set of balance because of the way they let the players handle their characters, with resetting stats and levels and whatnot, as opposed to the original game which introduces new features and its' own tweaks to maintain the balance)
Its also about the games' theme. you could have a mmorpg with pvp focus be something like planetside. just throw people into factions, let them have a character that can take on different classes with masteries and have them wreck each others' face because war.
or you could build a world for the players with quests and a huge map to do stuff in and crafting and raids like, say, world of wowcraft.
you wont satisfy everyone so you need to decide on the theme you want to balance yourself towards and build towards.
and moderation. where do the gms draw the line for a guild that throws too many punches in the face of newbies? do they get involved in territory fights where a guild decides to claim a farming spot as their own?
theres a lot more. saving pvp mmorpgs would require gamers as well as designers to build towards something that will satisfy both, and will be much more complex than saving pve mmorpgs which in my opinion are simply in danger of going the wrong direction with how the mobile markets' philosophy is leaking into the pc.
You play to win, not to empathise.
It's a lost cause.
Someday, hopefully PvE will evolve beyond camping mob spawns or pulling guards one at a time from a hallway while the next guy stands 20 feet away obliviously staring at the wall. If they could react in an intelligent manner then it becomes hard to distinguish PvE from PvP and the question goes away.
Heck.. I’ve been killed by AI in games like Overwatch and never knew if it was a player or a bot (I’m not great at FPS...)
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
My all time favourite show.
That does not mean I don't play PvP games I do I even played BDO. I just never gave anyone the chance to kill me. If I play any PvP game I will try my damnest to avoid PvP. I hunt in huge packs where the other side never has the chance to kill me or play on the side that has a huge faction imbalance so I never get attacked.
The best RvR system I've seen in my (limited) experience was in a fairly obscure (and unfortunately Pay to Win) Asian MMO - Aika Online. It worked through a temple system that allowed players to group together, enter opposing servers, steal relics from their temples, and bring them back to the portal in the center of the map to return to their server and bring the relic to their own temples before the opposing server (and their allies) can stop you. So, essentially, it was Capture the Flag on a grander scale and with significant bonuses to xp, gold find, and other reward multipliers with each relic your server currently holds.
In addition to a quality RvR objective, it also had a pretty good open world pvp system. Players could freely swap between PvE and PvP shards of their home server, with a large xp bonus on the PvP server. As far as I remember, the game didn't have significant PK penalties, but it did create danger for anyone attempting to hop to an opposing server and gank. Aside from having to enter/exit through the same predictable portal as everyone else, one would have to contend with patrolling pvp squads and strong guard npc's to get from zone to zone - especially low level zones.