No game has instilled in me a fear of death as much as Everquest. Which is why the mobs seemed more real to me in that game. And why I played with my head on a swivel, expecting trouble at every turn. I want Pantheon to bring that back.
See, here's what I don't get, you can actually have that feeling by playing on a PVP server.
Although I am a total carebear Ive often played on PVP servers and my favorite game is EVE, because succeeding in leveling or whatever was made more challenging and rewarding by the enemy player's presence.
When I played on the DAOC freeshard 4 or 5 years ago I did a lot of leveling in the frontiers due to a very good leveling bonus.
Unfortunately the restarted 1.69 version largely eschewed the bonuses so it was more efficient to level within the realms.
Now, very punishing death penalties are a bit different, I have to be able to well control my risk vs reward which I feel EVE mostly succeeds at vs more FFA games like DFO.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think a lot of people mistake adrenaline rush with fear.
At start of bigger tournaments I almost get my fingers numb during the first 10 minutes because of all adrenaline. Same thing happens in league games. I don't get the same rush when I play on regular evenings because it doesn't feel as important.
When playing games its more important that the game pushes my limits and force me to focus than having penalty for dying. Having to grind back EXP doesn't get me to fear the content, it just makes me annoyed.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Fear is what Wushu had in abundance as a young master coming up. I remember like yesterday stealing my first skill scroll in an raid on a rival school. terrified trying to get it, even more when I got it, then the moment when jumped off a 200 ft mountain to escape... amazing!
No game has instilled in me a fear of death as much as Everquest. Which is why the mobs seemed more real to me in that game. And why I played with my head on a swivel, expecting trouble at every turn. I want Pantheon to bring that back.
See, here's what I don't get, you can actually have that feeling by playing on a PVP server.
Although I am a total carebear Ive often played on PVP servers and my favorite game is EVE, because succeeding in leveling or whatever was made more challenging and rewarding by the enemy player's presence.
When I played on the DAOC freeshard 4 or 5 years ago I did a lot of leveling in the frontiers due to a very good leveling bonus.
Unfortunately the restarted 1.69 version largely eschewed the bonuses so it was more efficient to level within the realms.
Now, very punishing death penalties are a bit different, I have to be able to well control my risk vs reward which I feel EVE mostly succeeds at vs more FFA games like DFO.
PvP servers/games are "frustration" not "fear." If 100% PvP players fought with any sembleance of honor, I'd gladly play on them. Unfortunately, PvP servers/games are populated by way too many immature murder hobos who don't have one iota of honor in them.
That, for me, is not fear. It's frustration.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The difference is in one your afraid the other your not. I thought that would be obvious. It is possible to dislike something without being afraid of it.
It is also possible to act in a situation appropriately without being afraid of it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
No game has instilled in me a fear of death as much as Everquest. Which is why the mobs seemed more real to me in that game. And why I played with my head on a swivel, expecting trouble at every turn. I want Pantheon to bring that back.
See, here's what I don't get, you can actually have that feeling by playing on a PVP server.
Although I am a total carebear Ive often played on PVP servers and my favorite game is EVE, because succeeding in leveling or whatever was made more challenging and rewarding by the enemy player's presence.
When I played on the DAOC freeshard 4 or 5 years ago I did a lot of leveling in the frontiers due to a very good leveling bonus.
Unfortunately the restarted 1.69 version largely eschewed the bonuses so it was more efficient to level within the realms.
Now, very punishing death penalties are a bit different, I have to be able to well control my risk vs reward which I feel EVE mostly succeeds at vs more FFA games like DFO.
PvP servers/games are "frustration" not "fear." If 100% PvP players fought with any sembleance of honor, I'd gladly play on them. Unfortunately, PvP servers/games are populated by way too many immature murder hobos who don't have one iota of honor in them.
That, for me, is not fear. It's frustration.
I just view them as no different than how I would expect a dangerous, intelligent (sometimes) and unkillable NPC to act.
People always say they want more challenging AI but they really don't, as they still expect a reasonable chance to win.
That's not realistic, sometimes the "monsters" are just going to bury you, whether by numbers or power, and there really is not much difference to me whether its a player or a NPC.
In the "movies" heroes often do phenomenal tasks like "kill" something the size of a T-Rex.
It is far more realistic to believe the only real options are to avoid, run or hide, or the T-Rex is always going to win.
Or you can stay with the herd so at least if you can't kill the T-Rex he will likely eat one of your "mates" while you get safely away.
Remember, I don't have to out run the T-Rex, I just have to out run you.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have never played a game where I said "Man I wish dying sucked"
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I have never played a game where I said "Man I wish dying sucked"
I have. But it's because I kept killing the same overgeared enemies and they kept coming back overgeared with no real consequences having been inflicted on them.
Anarchy Online You were always afraid of death because of the penalty for it. And you needed to sit and wait for the death sickness to wear off. And if you were twinked into powerful gear the wait was longer. In group play this would suck but it happened alot. And you need to be able to rezz close to where your mission was or you would have a very long run through dangerous area's. You had to always find the closest rezz booth.
Yes if there is danger to you it is normal to be afraid. But a danger of losing something is not always a danger toto yourse.
The danger of losing a pen, losing a game, losing my jacket... None of those are a danger to my person. I'm not afraid of them I just wouldn't like it.
A danger to memy person. Sure I would be afraid. This doesn't happen in a game.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said I dislike the risk.
I also don't like tiger ice cream. That doesn't mean I'm afraid of it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
You would probably be afraid due to the possibility of never getting your equipment back. You also fear to lose the hours you put into getting experience. The more time you put in the more you will fear to lose what you got from that time spent. It was more than just an annoyance.
That is why you see a lot of EQ players recount stories of crossing x high level zone to get to y zone or something of that nature. This may also be a product of the time and something that can't easily be recreated in modern games.
There were a lot more stubborn players in the late 90s I believe who grew up on video games that took time to figure out without any instructions. We were used to being stubborn, trying to figure things out without instructions, and being tortured both in game and out.
With that said I'm not sure I'm looking for that anymore. I doubt there is much that could entice me into the monotony of leveling up.
I have never played a game where I said "Man I wish dying sucked"
I have.
But I like consequences. I'm also open to game play ranging from fast paced, action oriented stuff to slow, methodical, nothing much happening stuff.
Two nights ago I was playing Morrowind and went to Caldera as part of a fighter's guild quest to find some Telvanni agents.
I kept looking "north" of Caldera and couldn't find them, I ran into a nude Barbarian who told me a story of some witch who enchanted him and took his axe and would I help him.
"Sure" I said.
The next two hours is me running around trying to find this witch and the mine but only finding people who needed to be escorted.
I then get attacked by some rats, get infected with a disease and have to drop
most of my gear on the ground in order to move! Since there is little fast travel I had to hoof it to
the nearest city, find a shrine, get cured and run back to get my gear
which I left on the ground in the wilds.
After reading another npc text I finally realized that these agents were in a different place.
Haven't found the witch yet.
And I had to laugh because it occurred to me that a lot of players would have reloaded after being attacked by those rats as they wouldn't want to have to drop their gear and find a cure and they wouldn't have spent time just "looking" over the countryside.
But that to me is fun, is "the" game play I want. I want consequences, I want to deal with and overcome hardships.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I have never played a game where I said "Man I wish dying sucked"
I have.
But I like consequences. I'm also open to game play ranging from fast paced, action oriented stuff to slow, methodical, nothing much happening stuff.
Two nights ago I was playing Morrowind and went to Caldera as part of a fighter's guild quest to find some Telvanni agents.
I kept looking "north" of Caldera and couldn't find them, I ran into a nude Barbarian who told me a story of some witch who enchanted him and took his axe and would I help him.
"Sure" I said.
The next two hours is me running around trying to find this witch and the mine but only finding people who needed to be escorted.
I then get attacked by some rats, get infected with a disease and have to drop
most of my gear on the ground in order to move! Since there is little fast travel I had to hoof it to
the nearest city, find a shrine, get cured and run back to get my gear
which I left on the ground in the wilds.
After reading another npc text I finally realized that these agents were in a different place.
Haven't found the witch yet.
And I had to laugh because it occurred to me that a lot of players would have reloaded after being attacked by those rats as they wouldn't want to have to drop their gear and find a cure and they wouldn't have spent time just "looking" over the countryside.
But that to me is fun, is "the" game play I want. I want consequences, I want to deal with and overcome hardships.
Good times Sovrath , i enjoy that kinda stuff myself .. SOme of the most entertaining and rewarding times are finding your way out of terrible situations that you have gotten yourself into:)
Yes if there is danger to you it is normal to be afraid. But a danger of losing something is not always a dangerdan yourself.
The danger of losing a pen, losing a game, losing my jacket... None of those are a danger to my person. I'm not afraid of them I just wouldn't like it.
A danger to memy person. Sure I would be afraid. This doesn't happen in a game.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said I dislike the risk.
I also don't like tiger ice cream. That doesn't mean I'm afraid of it.
Every danger leads to fear, but sometimes it feels like a small discomfort. It does not matter if your person is threatened. Your pen is a part of your life, so the danger to losing it leads to a minor fear. Some people with obsessive compulsive disorder may even strongly disagree, that losing a pen is a small danger. I do not see how the fact you dislike some ice cream is related to the games, fear and the challenge.
You may dislike the color or the design of the game. But you cannot simply dislike the PvP, or the loot, or any mechanism for risk. Because if you dislike that, it means you dislike the risk - so you are afraid - it is pretty logical.
Humans need daily doses of fear to stay normal. If we do not get these doses, we start to create our own delusional fears.
In the FPS games the fear is easy to create even without a penalty, as you feel the threat to your character all the time. But in the MMORPGs the things are more complicated. The win and the risk of loss should not be related only to the current fight, but to the whole game - the virtual world. If they are not, the combat becomes pointless in the frames of the gameplay.
No every danger does not lead to fear. A discomfort is not fear, not even a small fear. It is a discomfort.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
And yes you can dislike many mechanisms. Pvp being one. Someone may prefer cooperation over competition. That doesn't mean they are afraid of competition. Disliking something does not equal being afraid of something especially when we are taking about entertainment. It may just not entertain them. That's it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
It's an entertainment product. They may feel they get more entertainment from pve or some cooperative task The pvp doesn't entertain them. That's it. Nothing more than that.
They don't have to be afraid if it. It just doesn't entertain them. Romance shows don't entertain me. That didn't mean I'm afraid of them. Why does it need to be anything more than that .
Different people have different tastes.
I like building things in games. I don't like farming or fishing. That doesn't mean I'm afraid of them.
Maybe their every day life is filled with competition and they want something different from their game time.
Alone time, group time, creativity, variety. These are also normal human traits.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
It's an entertainment product and the point is what people are afraid of.
The rationale reason is it doesn't entertain them due to their item unique and individuall likes and dislikes. That's it. There doesn't need to be any other reason. People have individual likes and dislikes. Maybe some are afraid maybe the others just like something else better. Maybe some are very competitive in real life and want something different in their entertainment.
There doesn't need to be any other reason.
You seem incapable of realizing that people have different likes and dislikes.
Is this how you debate? Start making assumptions about people and spouting crap because you don't like what they have to say?
Can't say I'm surprised.
You also seen incredibly limited about what is or isn't possible. Can't say I'm surprised about that either.
For myself most pvp bores me. Golden eye was pretty fun though.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I don't care about fear. I care about the element of surprise and unpredictability. Standoffs in the darkzone extraction of The Division were just super fun.
Not every one resulted in shootout but man two groups waiting together were super tense. You got loot there in that zone. Until you extrtracted it you could be killed for it. Now that is a good compromise for loot making it meaningful but not damaging to your current character.
It's an entertainment product and the point is what people are afraid of.
The rationale reason is it doesn't entertain them due to their item unique and individuall likes and dislikes. That's it. There doesn't need to be any other reason. People have individual likes and dislikes. Maybe some are afraid maybe the others just like something else better. Maybe some are very competitive in real life and want something different in their entertainment.
There doesn't need to be any other reason.
You seem incapable of realizing that people have different likes and dislikes.
Is this how you debate? Start making assumptions about people and spouting crap because you don't like what they have to say?
Can't say I'm surprised.
You also seen incredibly limited about what is or isn't possible. Can't say I'm surprised about that either.
For myself most pvp bores me. Golden eye was pretty fun though.
Well, I dislike/like things because I dislike/like things and the people are different - is a great argument. You actually say nothing meaningful. And I asked you multiple times - give me the rational reasons for your attitude. If your attitude is irrational any debate is actually impossible. As you do not give me reasons, I'm free to make any logical assumptions.
Now you say the PvP bores you. But in PvP and PvE both you fight vs toons. The only difference is, that to win in PvP is more challenging. That is all. If you say, that combat in the games bores you - I can accept that. If you say - you are afraid from competition - that is rational too. If you say you are an introvert person who likes to play solo - pretty acceptable. But to say PvP bores you, and PvE does not, makes no any sense.
Hmm ive been bored in PvP at times, if you do enough of it in some games it becomes repetitive just like PVE .. sometimes changing up is good..
In Warhammer for ex , that i played every day for hours for years .. I knew exactly the rotation that a Magus /Sorc/Squigherder etc was going to run and exactly what i wanted to do to counter it .. .. its not unusual same with DAOC ,AoC ,WoW..etc
I don't see any reason why one has to give a reason or rationale for liking an activity or enjoying certain aspects of a game.
I think you are trying to push a narrative and trigger people into falling for your accusation that one is a coward for not liking PvP. It is a poor attempt and easily seen through and one often employed by players who try to force their own interest on another person. You are trying to bully people who disagree with you by calling them cowardly for not liking PvP and that is the only reason you will accept. That does not make it true.
There is a disconnect as you are seeing things only from your point of view and refusing to accept that people do enjoy MMORPGs games for various reasons and many of them have nothing at all to do with PvP.
Your venial attempts at this line of reasoning is transparent and will fail against players who know exactly what they enjoy in games. Laughable that you actually think this attack on one's pride and displeasure at being labelled a coward is going to make one see things from your point of view.
I have never played a game where I said "Man I wish dying sucked"
I have.
But I like consequences. I'm also open to game play ranging from fast paced, action oriented stuff to slow, methodical, nothing much happening stuff.
Two nights ago I was playing Morrowind and went to Caldera as part of a fighter's guild quest to find some Telvanni agents.
I kept looking "north" of Caldera and couldn't find them, I ran into a nude Barbarian who told me a story of some witch who enchanted him and took his axe and would I help him.
"Sure" I said.
The next two hours is me running around trying to find this witch and the mine but only finding people who needed to be escorted.
I then get attacked by some rats, get infected with a disease and have to drop
most of my gear on the ground in order to move! Since there is little fast travel I had to hoof it to
the nearest city, find a shrine, get cured and run back to get my gear
which I left on the ground in the wilds.
After reading another npc text I finally realized that these agents were in a different place.
Haven't found the witch yet.
And I had to laugh because it occurred to me that a lot of players would have reloaded after being attacked by those rats as they wouldn't want to have to drop their gear and find a cure and they wouldn't have spent time just "looking" over the countryside.
But that to me is fun, is "the" game play I want. I want consequences, I want to deal with and overcome hardships.
Man that game back then was my life. I didn't play any other game when this came out. I have all the expansions for it too. I played nothing but this game for over a year. I had to explore every area of this game world. Even those islands way out in the ocean. Water walking spell on an item helped. But i do remember that quest to find that witch. I swear i wish they would remaster Morrowind. They said it take years to do it because of all the text. The best time is being in the middle of an ash storm at night far from any towns. Just to see if you chicken out and reload a save.
I've given you several. 1. Different tastes. 2. They are looking for something different.
To say most pvp I've tried bores me and most pve doesnt, makes complete sense. It's just something you can't understand but you don't need to understand. All you need to do except that people are different.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
Although I am a total carebear Ive often played on PVP servers and my favorite game is EVE, because succeeding in leveling or whatever was made more challenging and rewarding by the enemy player's presence.
When I played on the DAOC freeshard 4 or 5 years ago I did a lot of leveling in the frontiers due to a very good leveling bonus.
Unfortunately the restarted 1.69 version largely eschewed the bonuses so it was more efficient to level within the realms.
Now, very punishing death penalties are a bit different, I have to be able to well control my risk vs reward which I feel EVE mostly succeeds at vs more FFA games like DFO.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
At start of bigger tournaments I almost get my fingers numb during the first 10 minutes because of all adrenaline. Same thing happens in league games. I don't get the same rush when I play on regular evenings because it doesn't feel as important.
When playing games its more important that the game pushes my limits and force me to focus than having penalty for dying. Having to grind back EXP doesn't get me to fear the content, it just makes me annoyed.
That, for me, is not fear. It's frustration.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
It is also possible to act in a situation appropriately without being afraid of it.
People always say they want more challenging AI but they really don't, as they still expect a reasonable chance to win.
That's not realistic, sometimes the "monsters" are just going to bury you, whether by numbers or power, and there really is not much difference to me whether its a player or a NPC.
In the "movies" heroes often do phenomenal tasks like "kill" something the size of a T-Rex.
It is far more realistic to believe the only real options are to avoid, run or hide, or the T-Rex is always going to win.
Or you can stay with the herd so at least if you can't kill the T-Rex he will likely eat one of your "mates" while you get safely away.
Remember, I don't have to out run the T-Rex, I just have to out run you.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
(\ /) ?
( . .)
c('')('')
You were always afraid of death because of the penalty for it. And you needed to sit and wait for the death sickness to wear off. And if you were twinked into powerful gear the wait was longer. In group play this would suck but it happened alot. And you need to be able to rezz close to where your mission was or you would have a very long run through dangerous area's. You had to always find the closest rezz booth.
The danger of losing a pen, losing a game, losing my jacket... None of those are a danger to my person. I'm not afraid of them I just wouldn't like it.
A danger to memy person. Sure I would be afraid. This doesn't happen in a game.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said I dislike the risk.
I also don't like tiger ice cream. That doesn't mean I'm afraid of it.
That is why you see a lot of EQ players recount stories of crossing x high level zone to get to y zone or something of that nature. This may also be a product of the time and something that can't easily be recreated in modern games.
There were a lot more stubborn players in the late 90s I believe who grew up on video games that took time to figure out without any instructions. We were used to being stubborn, trying to figure things out without instructions, and being tortured both in game and out.
With that said I'm not sure I'm looking for that anymore. I doubt there is much that could entice me into the monotony of leveling up.
But I like consequences. I'm also open to game play ranging from fast paced, action oriented stuff to slow, methodical, nothing much happening stuff.
Two nights ago I was playing Morrowind and went to Caldera as part of a fighter's guild quest to find some Telvanni agents.
I kept looking "north" of Caldera and couldn't find them, I ran into a nude Barbarian who told me a story of some witch who enchanted him and took his axe and would I help him.
"Sure" I said.
The next two hours is me running around trying to find this witch and the mine but only finding people who needed to be escorted.
I then get attacked by some rats, get infected with a disease and have to drop most of my gear on the ground in order to move! Since there is little fast travel I had to hoof it to the nearest city, find a shrine, get cured and run back to get my gear which I left on the ground in the wilds.
After reading another npc text I finally realized that these agents were in a different place.
Haven't found the witch yet.
And I had to laugh because it occurred to me that a lot of players would have reloaded after being attacked by those rats as they wouldn't want to have to drop their gear and find a cure and they wouldn't have spent time just "looking" over the countryside.
But that to me is fun, is "the" game play I want. I want consequences, I want to deal with and overcome hardships.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The pvp doesn't entertain them. That's it. Nothing more than that.
They don't have to be afraid if it. It just doesn't entertain them. Romance shows don't entertain me. That didn't mean I'm afraid of them. Why does it need to be anything more than that .
Different people have different tastes.
I like building things in games. I don't like farming or fishing. That doesn't mean I'm afraid of them.
Maybe their every day life is filled with competition and they want something different from their game time.
Alone time, group time, creativity, variety. These are also normal human traits.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The rationale reason is it doesn't entertain them due to their item unique and individuall likes and dislikes. That's it. There doesn't need to be any other reason. People have individual likes and dislikes. Maybe some are afraid maybe the others just like something else better. Maybe some are very competitive in real life and want something different in their entertainment.
There doesn't need to be any other reason.
You seem incapable of realizing that people have different likes and dislikes.
Is this how you debate? Start making assumptions about people and spouting crap because you don't like what they have to say?
Can't say I'm surprised.
You also seen incredibly limited about what is or isn't possible. Can't say I'm surprised about that either.
For myself most pvp bores me. Golden eye was pretty fun though.
Not every one resulted in shootout but man two groups waiting together were super tense. You got loot there in that zone. Until you extrtracted it you could be killed for it. Now that is a good compromise for loot making it meaningful but not damaging to your current character.
In Warhammer for ex , that i played every day for hours for years .. I knew exactly the rotation that a Magus /Sorc/Squigherder etc was going to run and exactly what i wanted to do to counter it .. .. its not unusual same with DAOC ,AoC ,WoW..etc
I think you are trying to push a narrative and trigger people into falling for your accusation that one is a coward for not liking PvP. It is a poor attempt and easily seen through and one often employed by players who try to force their own interest on another person. You are trying to bully people who disagree with you by calling them cowardly for not liking PvP and that is the only reason you will accept. That does not make it true.
There is a disconnect as you are seeing things only from your point of view and refusing to accept that people do enjoy MMORPGs games for various reasons and many of them have nothing at all to do with PvP.
Your venial attempts at this line of reasoning is transparent and will fail against players who know exactly what they enjoy in games. Laughable that you actually think this attack on one's pride and displeasure at being labelled a coward is going to make one see things from your point of view.
It was cool when I was a child, but as an adult I've got enough responsibility and consequence that I don't need more of it in my free time.
1. Different tastes.
2. They are looking for something different.
To say most pvp I've tried bores me and most pve doesnt, makes complete sense. It's just something you can't understand but you don't need to understand. All you need to do except that people are different.