Lootboxes are gambling (Official Statement)

Ungood · May 2018

Well, for me.. when someone equates Lootboxes to doing hard Narcotics and Salutatory Rape.. that's pretty much where I draw the line on taking them seriously.

Beatnik59 · May 2018

Wow that's a complicated definition.

My criteria for gambling has always been that it is a real transaction that requires a fixed price for a random result.

Auctions are not gambling, since they give a fixed result for a random price.

Cash shops are not gambling, since they give a fixed price for a fixed result.

Mini games that are provided with no additional participation fee are not gambling, because even if they offer a fixed price for a random result, they are not real transactions.

My thought on loot boxes and grab bags was always "why can't they just sell these results as DLC, instead of having to buy a random chance to receive these things?" We know the answer already, there is no reason to casinofy your game, except to inflate the value of your DLC far greater than market forces will justify.

Eldurian · May 2018

laserit said:

I don't know if they restricted production of certain cards and made them extremely rare. If they did that, it would be an exploit and would need to be regulated as far as I'm concerned.

And this is why I see you as a stifling reactionary who I'm glad was not my parent. For MTG cards there are certainly cards that have limited production making them far more rare.

I bought them, I enjoyed them, and no great harm was done.

If you want to smother your kids with overprotection that is your prerogative as a parent. I've noticed the children who were most stifled in their youth depart the farthest from their parent's teachings as an adult.

A 16 year old is closer to an adult than a child. The more you smother them, the more they will rebel. They need to be given room to make their own mistakes and learn from them. Spending some pocket money on trading cards is far from shooting up heroine in a back alley.

If you want to treat your teenager like a 2 year old have at it. And don't be surprised when they are shooting up heroine in a back alley the moment they leave your stifling overprotection and realize there is a life outside the prison you call your home.

Don't ask me to do that with mine, and don't use government as a tool to tell me to do that to mine.

Iselin · May 2018

Ungood said:

Well, for me.. when someone equates Lootboxes to doing hard Narcotics and Salutatory Rape.. that's pretty much where I draw the line on taking them seriously.

WTF is salutatory rape? Is that when you greet them before you rape them?

Anyway, if you don't want irrelevant shit discussed in this thread then don't bring up irrelevant Libertarian horseshit ideology into it.

Ungood · May 2018

Iselin said:

Ungood said:

Well, for me.. when someone equates Lootboxes to doing hard Narcotics and Salutatory Rape.. that's pretty much where I draw the line on taking them seriously.

WTF is salutatory rape? Is that when you greet them before you rape them?

Anyway, if you don't want irrelevant shit discussed in this thread then don't bring up irrelevant Libertarian horseshit ideology into it.

That my spell checker changing Statutory. My Apologies for the massive confusion it caused you.

Right... ideology.. remember.. big brother is watching, big brother knows what is best for you.

Eldurian · May 2018

While there is truth in the words "Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it." part of doing that successfully is training them to think for themselves.

If you don't trust them enough to let them make the decision on something as small as buying trading cards, you aren't raising a children who can think for themselves.

Don't expect any well rounded adults to leave your home.

Beatnik59 · May 2018

Eldurian said:

If you don't trust them enough to let them make the decision on something as small as buying trading cards, you aren't raising a children who can think for themselves.

I think the difference is in the very term "trading cards." Everybody who buys a pack gets the gum, and ten or so cards of various players. But lootbox crap tends not to work like that. You might need a mount, but you get powerups you don't need. You might want a skin, but you get emotes. But that's the least difference between the two.

With trading cards, you can do with you want with them. You can trade a card you already have to a buddy who has a card you'd like. But lootbox crap tends not to work like that; what you get can't be transferred to anyone else.

Besides, those trading cards don't get taken away from you, just because the publisher decides not to make them available anymore. But the moment a game cancels, your lootbox crap disappears, with no refund or recompense.

And, quite frankly, not even the publisher of those trading cards knows what the cards they print up today will be worth five or ten years down the road. They print off a rookie who just got called up from the minors, and the kid says "aw hell...why can't it have been Martinez or Betts?" But then, that rookie wins rookie of the year, takes the team to the world series in consecutive years, and goes to Cooperstown. They may print off a card that is sure to be in demand. But the guy gets injured and is never the same.

Can't say the same for lootbox crap. The publisher can manipulate how much these things are worth, and can control how much the things are worth, because they can buff or nerf these things to make them more or less valuable.

Kids, and many adults, can be counted on to make a fair assessment about what they see. But they don't know about the things they don't see; they are apt to trust too much that the things that remain hidden from them have their best interests at heart. And there is a lot that remains hidden in the way that lootbox crap works. We don't even know, and have no way to tell, if the odds of getting an item are even what the publishers say they are.

Eldurian · May 2018

Beatnik59 said:

Eldurian said:

If you don't trust them enough to let them make the decision on something as small as buying trading cards, you aren't raising a children who can think for themselves.

I think the difference is in the very term "trading cards." Everybody who buys a pack gets the gum, and ten or so cards of various players. But lootbox crap tends not to work like that. You might need a mount, but you get powerups you don't need. You might want a skin, but you get emotes. But that's the least difference between the two.

With trading cards, you can do with you want with them. You can trade a card you already have to a buddy who has a card you'd like. But lootbox crap tends not to work like that; what you get can't be transferred to anyone else.

Besides, those trading cards don't get taken away from you, just because the publisher decides not to make them available anymore. But the moment a game cancels, your lootbox crap disappears, with no refund or recompense.

And, quite frankly, not even the publisher of those trading cards knows what the cards they print up today will be worth five or ten years down the road. They print off a rookie who just got called up from the minors, and the kid says "aw hell...why can't it have been Martinez or Betts?" But then, that rookie wins rookie of the year, takes the team to the world series in consecutive years, and goes to Cooperstown. They may print off a card that is sure to be in demand. But the guy gets injured and is never the same.

Can't say the same for lootbox crap. The publisher can manipulate how much these things are worth, and can control how much the things are worth, because they can buff or nerf these things to make them more or less valuable.

Kids, and many adults, can be counted on to make a fair assessment about what they see. But they don't know about the things they don't see; they are apt to trust too much that the things that remain hidden from them have their best interests at heart. And there is a lot that remains hidden in the way that lootbox crap works. We don't even know, and have no way to tell, if the odds of getting an item are even what the publishers say they are.

1. You will always get cards from a booster pack, and you will always get items from a lootbox. I have opened quite a few MTG booster packs and been like "Man this is all crap, what a terrible rare!"

2. The Netherlands and Belgium laws only apply to lootboxes which have contents that can be resold. So 100% percent of implemented laws don't deal with the issue you raised as a concern.

3. They might not go away but try to play in tournaments at your local card shop and you will find out very fast that what is "standard legal" changes very quickly, and most of your older cards will get relegated to legacy and casual decks within a year of you buying them.

Iselin · May 2018

You don't need to go much further in this tiresome debate about loot boxes than the realization that even those white knighting for the right of others to buy them admit that they think they're shitty deals and say they don't buy them themselves.

Loot boxes are the shit you buy when you're utterly bored with the reason you played the game to begin with. "Look at my mount, it glows pink and yours only glows yellow!"

But sure, carry on making the choice to buy them a human rights issue lol.

Eldurian · May 2018

Iselin said:

You don't need to go much further in this tiresome debate about loot boxes than the realization that even those white knighting for the right of others to buy them admit that they think they're shitty deals and say they don't buy them themselves.

Loot boxes are the shit you buy when you're utterly bored with the reason you played the game to begin with. "Look at my mount, it glows pink and yours only glows yellow!"

But sure, carry on making the choice to buy them a human rights issue lol.

"You don't need to go much further in this tiresome debate about drinking than the realization that even those white knighting for the right of others to buy alchohol admit that they think it's a destructive habit and say they don't frequently drink themselves.

It destroys your liver, it makes you do dumb stuff, it even makes some people violent

But sure, carry on making the choice to buy booze a human rights issue lol."

______________

"You don't need to go much further in this tiresome debate about veganism than the realization that even those white knighting for the right of others to eat vegan admit that they think it's a destructive habit and say they would never eat vegan themselves.

It replaces healthy fats in your diet with grain, sugar and legume substitution as well as making it very difficult to receive the nutrients they need

But sure, carry on making the choice to eat vegan a human rights issue lol."
______________

"You don't need to go much further in this tiresome debate about sun tanning than the realization that even those white knighting for the right of others to sun tan admit that they think it's a destructive habit and say they would never sun tan themselves.

It ages your skin faster, frankly doesn't look that good, and can even lead to skin cancer.

But sure, carry on making the choice to sun tan a human rights issue lol."

Eldurian · May 2018

Understand that if we make what I think is dumb illegal. You could not gamble in nearly in any form, you could not drink more then enough to get buzzed more than once a year. You could not smoke marjiuana more than once a year and you could never do any other form of drug. Tattoos would be illegal. Any piercing on a man would be illegal, especially gauge earrings. T-shirts with ugly patterns would be illegal. Tights would be illegal. Casual sex would be illegal. Loot boxes would be illegal. Cheating on your partner would be illegal. Themepark MMOs / having a game where a veteran character is more than five times stronger than a newb before factoring in player skill would be illegal. Call of Duty would be illegal. CNN and Fox News would be illegal. Posting passive aggressive statuses on Facebook would be illegal. Listening to YouTubers who whine too much would be illegal. Twitch and other livestreams including E-Sports would be illegal.

Do you get the picture yet? The choices that I make for myself should not be codified into laws that apply to anyone else.

MadFrenchie · May 2018

Eldurian said:

Beatnik59 said:

Eldurian said:

If you don't trust them enough to let them make the decision on something as small as buying trading cards, you aren't raising a children who can think for themselves.

I think the difference is in the very term "trading cards." Everybody who buys a pack gets the gum, and ten or so cards of various players. But lootbox crap tends not to work like that. You might need a mount, but you get powerups you don't need. You might want a skin, but you get emotes. But that's the least difference between the two.

With trading cards, you can do with you want with them. You can trade a card you already have to a buddy who has a card you'd like. But lootbox crap tends not to work like that; what you get can't be transferred to anyone else.

Besides, those trading cards don't get taken away from you, just because the publisher decides not to make them available anymore. But the moment a game cancels, your lootbox crap disappears, with no refund or recompense.

And, quite frankly, not even the publisher of those trading cards knows what the cards they print up today will be worth five or ten years down the road. They print off a rookie who just got called up from the minors, and the kid says "aw hell...why can't it have been Martinez or Betts?" But then, that rookie wins rookie of the year, takes the team to the world series in consecutive years, and goes to Cooperstown. They may print off a card that is sure to be in demand. But the guy gets injured and is never the same.

Can't say the same for lootbox crap. The publisher can manipulate how much these things are worth, and can control how much the things are worth, because they can buff or nerf these things to make them more or less valuable.

Kids, and many adults, can be counted on to make a fair assessment about what they see. But they don't know about the things they don't see; they are apt to trust too much that the things that remain hidden from them have their best interests at heart. And there is a lot that remains hidden in the way that lootbox crap works. We don't even know, and have no way to tell, if the odds of getting an item are even what the publishers say they are.

1. You will always get cards from a booster pack, and you will always get items from a lootbox. I have opened quite a few MTG booster packs and been like "Man this is all crap, what a terrible rare!"

2. The Netherlands and Belgium laws only apply to lootboxes which have contents that can be resold. So 100% percent of implemented laws don't deal with the issue you raised as a concern.

3. They might not go away but try to play in tournaments at your local card shop and you will find out very fast that what is "standard legal" changes very quickly, and most of your older cards will get relegated to legacy and casual decks within a year of you buying them.

1. You didn't really refute his counter-argument to yours, only repeated your initial position.

2. Belgium and Netherlands are the first attempts to regulate; I'll kiss your ass a second time if they got it completely right the first time.

3. Still doesn't counter his argument: WotC cannot take away your cards just because they wanna create MTG 2 and force you to buy it to continue playing Magic.

Eldurian · May 2018

MadFrenchie said:

1. You didn't really refute his counter-argument to yours, only repeated your initial position.

2. Belgium and Netherlands are the first attempts to regulate; I'll kiss your ass a second time if they got it completely right the first time.

3. Still doesn't counter his argument: WotC cannot take away your cards just because they wanna create MTG 2 and force you to buy it to continue playing Magic.

1. I absolutely destroyed his position. He set up a false narrative of relative consistence in value when opening cards. Lootboxes and trading card games have no major difference in consistency in value. They all generate some kind of return, sometimes you can win big, sometimes you can walk away with crap. It's prettymuch a 1:1 comparison and the difference is only in people's minds.

This is a rare card. You will find 1 per MTG booster.

This is also a rare card you could draw instead of the first one.

Notice a difference in value?

2. They're the only attempt to regulate them in any country in the years that we've had them. Don't expect the US to hop on board with stronger laws then the 2 EU countries that have cared enough to address them any time soon. Obviously what those countries care about is the potential to use them as a way to gamble for money, not the petty concerns of gamers who don't think they are a good value.

3. No but you you do have to constantly keep rebuying their product if you want to engage in any kind of competitive play. Are you saying the difference between the potential they will shut it down sometime and the guarantee your cards will no longer be standard legal next year is worth bringing the government in to say "THIS IS ILLEGAL NOW!" for one but not the other?

craftseeker · May 2018

I think it is instructive for hat people in this thread (and other threads) keep on referring to 'whales', that is a term borrowed from the casino industry. The meaning is relatively unchanged too. In borrowing that term game companies and the people on this forum are implicitly admitting that gambling as a source of revenue is at the heart of the issue.

We all know it is gambling, we all know that gambling needs to be regulated.

We can do better.
We will do better.

Cryomatrix · May 2018

craftseeker said:

We all know it is gambling, we all know that gambling needs to be regulated.

But gambling isn't equally regulated. The federal gov't just allowed sports betting for other states whereas before it was only Nevada. Yet, their state lotto and all the other crap is allowed to flourish.

The stock market can be construed as gambling too. I don't think gambling necessarily needs to be regulated. Perhaps I feel that way cuz it is unevenly regulated in the US, but at some point, people need to take responsibility for the repercussions of gamblings.

Perhaps, put a big "G" next to anything that is construed as could be gambling in the US. Either way, I personally just don't care about regulating gambling that much. I would draw the line at targeting children with the gambling bullshit and scams but the reality is that they already do in a certain way with MTG and baseball cards.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't care if someone regulates gambling or not, just don't use predatory shit that is not out in the open and designed to fool people.

Eldurian · May 2018

craftseeker said:

I think it is instructive for hat people in this thread (and other threads) keep on referring to 'whales', that is a term borrowed from the casino industry. The meaning is relatively unchanged too. In borrowing that term game companies and the people on this forum are implicitly admitting that gambling as a source of revenue is at the heart of the issue.

We all know it is gambling, we all know that gambling needs to be regulated.

We can do better.
We will do better.

What term would you use to refer to someone who directly buys a bunch of items from a cash shop with no chance involved?

Not that I disagree that lootboxes are gambling, I just disagree that anything which can be classified as gambling (such as the trading card games most people here also agree are gambling) is in need of major government regulation.

But your point is ridiculous, even in comparison to your usual points.

Eldurian · May 2018

Torval said:

I'm curious how this will impact multinational MMOs specifically ESO. Will ESO have to stop selling their loot crates in Belgium and possibly the EU? Zenimax is a US company. They have EU subsidiaries but they are not directly connected to ZoS except through their parent Zenimax Media.

These regulations do not apply to ESO as items from their lootcrates cannot be resold for cash. It actually only applies to a very small percentage of loot boxes. Primarily Steam games like PUBG.

DuckDuckBoomBoom · May 2018

whether or not lootboxes are gambling or not, i'm happy to see them gone for at least one country. crossing my fingers this becomes a trend in games. seriously can't stand rng in games.

Iselin · May 2018

Eldurian said:

Torval said:

I'm curious how this will impact multinational MMOs specifically ESO. Will ESO have to stop selling their loot crates in Belgium and possibly the EU? Zenimax is a US company. They have EU subsidiaries but they are not directly connected to ZoS except through their parent Zenimax Media.

These regulations do not apply to ESO as items from their lootcrates cannot be resold for cash. It actually only applies to a very small percentage of loot boxes. Primarily Steam games like PUBG.

You didn't even bother to read the OP link before deciding to wade in with both feet to promote your libertarian garbage did you?

Iselin · May 2018

Torval said:

I'm curious how this will impact multinational MMOs specifically ESO. Will ESO have to stop selling their loot crates in Belgium and possibly the EU? Zenimax is a US company. They have EU subsidiaries but they are not directly connected to ZoS except through their parent Zenimax Media.

Does anyone think that will apply pressure to these studios to remove loot crates? I don't see ZoS slowing down at all. In fact, I'd say their cash shop engine has just upgraded from industrial steam to fuel cell tech.

Will GDPR affect lootcrates? Successful loot crate systems, in my opinion, are built on customer metrics. Does the GDPR have data provisions for how customer data is used even with business partners? Demographics analytics provide a framework for targeted marketing. Will game companies continue to be allowed to harvest data under the provision of providing a better service when that interpretation results in cash shop items and loot crates.

Could hampering the use of customer data for loot crate marketing pull the rug out from under that system?

Unfortunately since we're only worried about the semantics of gambling and targeting minors I think it's unlikely those questions will come up under this provision.

I wonder the same about ESO myself. Their actual EU physical presence (servers, etc.) is mostly in Germany. I'm sure they also have Belgian customers.

They have said nothing about this as is their habit.

Eldurian · May 2018

Iselin said:

Eldurian said:

Torval said:

I'm curious how this will impact multinational MMOs specifically ESO. Will ESO have to stop selling their loot crates in Belgium and possibly the EU? Zenimax is a US company. They have EU subsidiaries but they are not directly connected to ZoS except through their parent Zenimax Media.

These regulations do not apply to ESO as items from their lootcrates cannot be resold for cash. It actually only applies to a very small percentage of loot boxes. Primarily Steam games like PUBG.

You didn't even bother to read the OP link before deciding to wade in with both feet to promote your libertarian garbage did you?

This is like the 3rd or 4th topic on the subject I don't read the linked article in every one. But the Netherlands one was quite specific:

"Six of the ten loot boxes that were studied do not contravene the law. In these games, there is no question of in-game goods with a market value and they therefore do not satisfy the definition of a prize under Article 1 of the Betting and Gaming Act."

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/267994-the-netherlands-declares-some-loot-boxes-illegal-warns-developers-to-modify-them

Iselin · May 2018

Eldurian said:

Iselin said:

Eldurian said:

Torval said:

I'm curious how this will impact multinational MMOs specifically ESO. Will ESO have to stop selling their loot crates in Belgium and possibly the EU? Zenimax is a US company. They have EU subsidiaries but they are not directly connected to ZoS except through their parent Zenimax Media.

These regulations do not apply to ESO as items from their lootcrates cannot be resold for cash. It actually only applies to a very small percentage of loot boxes. Primarily Steam games like PUBG.

You didn't even bother to read the OP link before deciding to wade in with both feet to promote your libertarian garbage did you?

This is like the 3rd or 4th topic on the subject I don't read the linked article in every one. But the Netherlands one was quite specific:

"Six of the ten loot boxes that were studied do not contravene the law. In these games, there is no question of in-game goods with a market value and they therefore do not satisfy the definition of a prize under Article 1 of the Betting and Gaming Act."

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/267994-the-netherlands-declares-some-loot-boxes-illegal-warns-developers-to-modify-them

Yes but we're talking about what Belgium did here. The clue is in the first post.

Iselin · May 2018

Torval said:

Sorry, I guess I'm a little confused. Go figure.

I thought in the case of Belgium that consideration wasn't necessary. That is the rewards in the loot crate don't need to have real-world value and that even in-game value isn't necessary, but perceived value is enough to satisfy the condition for their definition of gambling.

If that were true then I could see games like LotRO and ESO coming under fire, or scrutiny at the very least. Yet, neither has said a peep and show no signs of slowing down that direction, like Iselin said.

Now if I am totally confused and those don't apply or have already been vetted, then I supposed most MMOs will carry on with business as usual.

No, you're right. The Dutch ruling made that distinction of resale value being a determining factor. The Belgian one did not. They focus more on whether the loot boxes are something you buy or just a free thing included in the game.

Ungood · May 2018

I don't think anyone actually likes RNG Games when it comes to spending money on a game, even the people that buy them I think often wish there was another better method to achieve the same goal.

However, with that said, I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could want government intervention into this.

Anyone with any clue, would know damn well that the next system will be worse if it is forced into existence due to legalities and legislation, as opposed to brought about by players voting with their wallets and making what they enjoy profitable.

At this point, I am going to step back see what happens to the game industry in Belgium. It could simply crumble as others pointed out, as there are less people in that entire country then there are in some cities in United States. So it's not like they are needed market or coveted market, game companies could simply cease selling in that country.

But if they are shrewd as some imagine and make them off to be, They use this as a chance to develop and test out some other more insidious and predatory monetization methods.

Iselin · May 2018

Ungood said:

However, with that said, I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could want government intervention into this.

All gamers would obviously prefer the companies to police themselves and most likely, so would the governments. That is a basic fact of this whole loot crate thing that seems to escape a lot of you in your haste to preach about the evils of government over-regulation.

But as history has shown to anyone who bothers to read it, it is extremely rare for industries to self regulate adequately to prevent governments from stepping in and forcing them to do it. It's in their nature to push and push the boundaries until they go too far and there are always some greedy morons that screw it up for everyone.

What you're witnessing is this timeless phenomenon playing itself out right in front of your eyes in gaming.

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Lootboxes are gambling (Official Statement)

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Lootboxes are gambling (Official Statement)

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