Yes, and your desires seem "more popular" among gamers. And "some of me" bleeds into my characters, too, but that is mental (like morality or philosophy), not physical.
What breaks my immersion is when my supposedly master-skilled character messes up that skill repeatedly due to my ineptness. Some master they are
I find the entire concept my character is some amazing and exceptional individual breaks immersion for me in an MMO anyway. "40 amazing, exceptional, individuals come together and struggle to take down a single boss." "An amazing, exceptional individual has the rank of recruit in the guild they belong to." "An amazing, exceptional individual asks for help in figuring out how their skill works."
I really prefer the backstory for an MMO character to be very open ended / something I come up with myself, and let my actions in the game determine if I am just some random joe or actually do prove myself to be amazing and exceptional.
Because the greatest story about any of my characters is the story of a man who started a war with the largest group in the game with only 2 other pilots at his side, achieved success and had allies rally around him, and eventually defeated them. Later he made allies of his former enemies and built the strongest alliance the galaxy had ever seen.
Of course that wasn't scripted. That's what I actually did on my Freelancer server.
How does "amazing & exceptional" differ between you in the game and your character in the game? Didn't you say earlier that you made characters just like your real life self, or as close as possible? Either way, the game plays the same, right? You (in the game) also runs with 40 other people to beat up some boss, just like some character does, yes?
I'm not seeing the connection, or is this an expansion on "immersion?"
What I'm really replying to is this statement:
"What breaks my immersion is when my supposedly master-skilled character messes up that skill repeatedly due to my ineptness. Some master they are "
Essentially you seem to be saying "The game says I'm a master, but really I'm a bumbling fool and that breaks my ability to connect with my supposedly masterful character."
My counter is this: If I am a bumbling fool, then my character is a bumbling fool. I don't want the game to tell me I am a master. If I am going to be amazing and exceptional in the game universe, it should be because I am an amazing and exceptional player.
So there is no difference between me and my character in-game, and I don't want there to be. That illusion will be broken the first time I interact with a player on the same stat level who is amazing and exceptional anyway.
I think action combat can get tiring after smashing combos and buttons for 50 levels plus alts.
I think I enjoy a combination. Though I wish combat was more reactive than just doing a rotation.
It certainly can but just because it is action combat doesn't mean it have to be that way. We seen plenty of skill rotation in trinity based combat as well after all.
Good MMO combat should require you to use the right skill at the right time, trinity or action combat. Just spamming your skill in the same order over and over is stupid, repetetive and get's old fast.
Just because combat is faster, have dodging or force you to aim doesn't mean it shouldn't require you to use your brain. Yes, speed and strenght is important in combat but so is using your brain.
It isn't even the number of attack skills that matters, I seen plenty of games with tons of skills that people just rotate anyways. And if you always use the same rotation you are basically just doing a single long attack, no matter if it forces you to click 30 buttons to do it.
MMO combat should be about outsmarting your opponent, you feint, parry and attack to either react to what the opponent do or to force him to react to what you do.
I'm confused about the part about outsmarting your opponent because it makes mmo combat sound like fighting games and I can't remember something like that ever happening throughout my mmo gameplay time. The part about using right skill at the right time is just basic twitch.
That's not to say I disagree about breaking away from rotation and having fun with twitch elements, I enjoy playing healers and for the most parts its a combination of triage and twitch with some mana management on the side. I find damage dealers boring because there's not much to pay attention to.
The biggest flaw in MMO combat is still the content, you are forced to wade through thousands of enemies to extend the gametime and for the most part its quite simple gameplay.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
I think action combat can get tiring after smashing combos and buttons for 50 levels plus alts.
I think I enjoy a combination. Though I wish combat was more reactive than just doing a rotation.
It certainly can but just because it is action combat doesn't mean it have to be that way. We seen plenty of skill rotation in trinity based combat as well after all.
Good MMO combat should require you to use the right skill at the right time, trinity or action combat. Just spamming your skill in the same order over and over is stupid, repetetive and get's old fast.
Just because combat is faster, have dodging or force you to aim doesn't mean it shouldn't require you to use your brain. Yes, speed and strenght is important in combat but so is using your brain.
It isn't even the number of attack skills that matters, I seen plenty of games with tons of skills that people just rotate anyways. And if you always use the same rotation you are basically just doing a single long attack, no matter if it forces you to click 30 buttons to do it.
MMO combat should be about outsmarting your opponent, you feint, parry and attack to either react to what the opponent do or to force him to react to what you do.
I'm confused about the part about outsmarting your opponent because it makes mmo combat sound like fighting games and I can't remember something like that ever happening throughout my mmo gameplay time. The part about using right skill at the right time is just basic twitch.
That's not to say I disagree about breaking away from rotation and having fun with twitch elements, I enjoy playing healers and for the most parts its a combination of triage and twitch with some mana management on the side. I find damage dealers boring because there's not much to pay attention to.
The biggest flaw in MMO combat is still the content, you are forced to wade through thousands of enemies to extend the gametime and for the most part its quite simple gameplay.
Lol, the so called "action combat" mmos have little do do with "twitch" (most of them anyway). Pvp in those games is all about outsmarting your opponent, just as Loke says.
Those "action" mmos tend to give the players more options to have interesting and tactical fights than older games with simpler combat mechanics (like WoW), which is part of the appeal. But they are far from twitch-based FPS games where the gold goes to the player who can land the best headshots, etc.
Action combat isn't really the problem, it's the anti-trinity movement. I can see why you might confuse them since they showed up around the same time and the anti-trinity games were also action games (GW2, B&S).
As TERA proved, you can have an action game with distinct roles that needed each other to succeed ( at least early on in the game's life). You weren't going to tackle a dungeon without a tank, healer and 2 DPS. There just weren't enough dodges on DPS classes to tank, tanks didn't have the DPS to kill before healers ran out of mana, and groups couldn't survive without a healer's support and healing skills (unless they outgeared the dungeon).
I'll be happy when the obsession of everyone being self sufficient dies off.
I liked the EQ model where you had classes that could put out a lot of damage if somebody else took the heat, but did much less if they had aggro (rogue couldn't backstab, casters had to spend time and mana on CC and kiting instead of casting). In modern games those classes can stand toe to toe and dish out their max damage because requiring them to cooperate with other players apparently drives people away from multiplayer games .
Yes, and your desires seem "more popular" among gamers. And "some of me" bleeds into my characters, too, but that is mental (like morality or philosophy), not physical.
What breaks my immersion is when my supposedly master-skilled character messes up that skill repeatedly due to my ineptness. Some master they are
I find the entire concept my character is some amazing and exceptional individual breaks immersion for me in an MMO anyway. "40 amazing, exceptional, individuals come together and struggle to take down a single boss." "An amazing, exceptional individual has the rank of recruit in the guild they belong to." "An amazing, exceptional individual asks for help in figuring out how their skill works."
I really prefer the backstory for an MMO character to be very open ended / something I come up with myself, and let my actions in the game determine if I am just some random joe or actually do prove myself to be amazing and exceptional.
Because the greatest story about any of my characters is the story of a man who started a war with the largest group in the game with only 2 other pilots at his side, achieved success and had allies rally around him, and eventually defeated them. Later he made allies of his former enemies and built the strongest alliance the galaxy had ever seen.
Of course that wasn't scripted. That's what I actually did on my Freelancer server.
How does "amazing & exceptional" differ between you in the game and your character in the game? Didn't you say earlier that you made characters just like your real life self, or as close as possible? Either way, the game plays the same, right? You (in the game) also runs with 40 other people to beat up some boss, just like some character does, yes?
I'm not seeing the connection, or is this an expansion on "immersion?"
What I'm really replying to is this statement:
"What breaks my immersion is when my supposedly master-skilled character messes up that skill repeatedly due to my ineptness. Some master they are "
Essentially you seem to be saying "The game says I'm a master, but really I'm a bumbling fool and that breaks my ability to connect with my supposedly masterful character."
My counter is this: If I am a bumbling fool, then my character is a bumbling fool. I don't want the game to tell me I am a master. If I am going to be amazing and exceptional in the game universe, it should be because I am an amazing and exceptional player.
So there is no difference between me and my character in-game, and I don't want there to be. That illusion will be broken the first time I interact with a player on the same stat level who is amazing and exceptional anyway.
Ah! That makes sense and thanks for your patience
Suffice to say, we have two very different ideas for RPGs
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Action combat isn't really the problem, it's the anti-trinity movement. I can see why you might confuse them since they showed up around the same time and the anti-trinity games were also action games (GW2, B&S).
As TERA proved, you can have an action game with distinct roles that needed each other to succeed ( at least early on in the game's life). You weren't going to tackle a dungeon without a tank, healer and 2 DPS. There just weren't enough dodges on DPS classes to tank, tanks didn't have the DPS to kill before healers ran out of mana, and groups couldn't survive without a healer's support and healing skills (unless they outgeared the dungeon).
I'll be happy when the obsession of everyone being self sufficient dies off.
I liked the EQ model where you had classes that could put out a lot of damage if somebody else took the heat, but did much less if they had aggro (rogue couldn't backstab, casters had to spend time and mana on CC and kiting instead of casting). In modern games those classes can stand toe to toe and dish out their max damage because requiring them to cooperate with other players apparently drives people away from multiplayer games .
I still find trinity setups to be a cheap abstraction based on the poor internet of the time. That's a different argument though. Personally don't care for trinity or action game mechanics. IF other parts of the game are good and fun, it can balance out of course. Classless systems would be my preference, with the archetypes and fotms created by the players. But not action based. My character's strength has nothing to do with my finger dexterity on a keyboard. Well, except as an abstraction that I don't care for.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I agree. Action combat was extremely appealing, and I still enjoy playing those games but it has definitely made classes feel boring.
I loved having boss fights that required people to interrupt, debuff, cleanse players or in general actually think about the fight. Not just go in, have one player tank it facing one direction while everyone else dances around the circles on the ground while spamming DPS skills.
There are some games still trying to do this, Project Gorgon has quite a bit of options in terms of specializing in classes and being able to mix different classes to get certain effects in combat. But in general it seems like most players now want to play in a game where everyone just rolls around spamming dps skills.
I wonder if there's even a possibility of a game doing well that actually requires thought out skills during combat in this current environment. It just seems like it wouldn't take on all that well.
Tab Targeting was great, I didn't have to have a mouse with 47 buttons on it to make sure I don't strain my hands trying to run while charging up skills while aiming at an enemy. Not saying I don't like that type of gameplay, but I really want to be able to think about fighting while it's happening. I want a buffer class that matters again, I loved being a support role, but now support roles basically just exist to be an off healer. In L2 I remember loving any time a support was willing to come with me, and every support class had different buffs that made different things easier.
I loved having boss fights that required people to interrupt, debuff, cleanse players or in general actually think about the fight. Not just go in, have one player tank it facing one direction while everyone else dances around the circles on the ground while spamming DPS skills.
I feel like things can be done better without ditching some of the better features of action combat like soft aiming.
For one. I don't think ninja rolls should be a regular class feature that comes with a double tap of any directional movement. In a class based system give it to like the rogue, and if you have a martial arts monk class that too. Makes sense. The paladin doesn't need duck and roll. The wizard doesn't need duck and roll. etc. If it's a non-class based system make it something you need to give up something else to have. Skill slots, point-buy etc. Finally make it something you must be wearing light armor to activate.
In terms of skill variety, there is no reason they can't have skill variety. As previously stated GW1 was the first limited ability bar game I ever played. Not only did it have skill variety, it had the best skill variety I had ever seen, enabled by it's limited ability bar. If I game has no cleanses it isn't because of action combat and limited ability bars. It's because they were too lazy to put them in.
I agree. Action combat was extremely appealing, and I still enjoy playing those games but it has definitely made classes feel boring.
I loved having boss fights that required people to interrupt, debuff, cleanse players or in general actually think about the fight. Not just go in, have one player tank it facing one direction while everyone else dances around the circles on the ground while spamming DPS skills.
There are some games still trying to do this, Project Gorgon has quite a bit of options in terms of specializing in classes and being able to mix different classes to get certain effects in combat. But in general it seems like most players now want to play in a game where everyone just rolls around spamming dps skills.
I wonder if there's even a possibility of a game doing well that actually requires thought out skills during combat in this current environment. It just seems like it wouldn't take on all that well.
Tab Targeting was great, I didn't have to have a mouse with 47 buttons on it to make sure I don't strain my hands trying to run while charging up skills while aiming at an enemy. Not saying I don't like that type of gameplay, but I really want to be able to think about fighting while it's happening. I want a buffer class that matters again, I loved being a support role, but now support roles basically just exist to be an off healer. In L2 I remember loving any time a support was willing to come with me, and every support class had different buffs that made different things easier.
I do feel exactly the same. IMHO we need to get back a bit again. Away from the action combat we have today back to more tactical fights. But not too far because some fight systems really are antiquated today.
Nowadays we have all the same roles in a game. While they may be different in certain areas (AoE - single target, Pure Tank - Tank with more damage, Direct healer - Dot healer) I'm missing classes like support, cc, interrupter, buffer.
Its just the games don't need them anymore. Tell me one game in the last 5 years where you couldn't run through most of the dungeons easily and either you did enough damage before the tank died or you didn't. Where is the content where you have to CC some mobs. Mostly the CC skills exist but the game mechanics don't support this kind of game play. I'm pretty sure that the last 5 games I have played an mage I never had to "root" an NPC enemy in a dungeon. And if I had to I couldn't lock them for even half of the fight. Because every game is a PvE-PvP hybrid today, no class has the ability anymore to lock down an enemy for a longer period.
The next thing simplified is the every class can do everything in his role. This was made because no class should be locked out from certain content because he is not that useful as his counterparty. I think this is just lazy work, so you don't have to develop a dungeon to have situations where every class can shine.
But IMHO they take it even further by creating games with less different classes that we had 10 Years ago. And if they have more than tank, healer, rogue, mage, ranger, they all feel the same. Every magic dd gets the same tools, or if they have different ones you really don't need them. Just avoid red markers on the floor and do damage, heal or tank.
Now that I am mapping in Path of Exile I have had to run about avoiding all sort of stuff or I die with a snap of fingers. I am suppose to have an army of pets but their AI makes them run back to me instead of protecting me (stupid Spectres,Zombies and Golem). So I have to stand cowering behind a wall somewhere but today while doing a city square map the boss chased me about and would not stop. It was insane and he had some powerful fire attack that brought my life down alarmingly and I was, damn it, enjoying myself while my adrenaline pumped up.
I do agree action orientated games are a lot of fun but not every MMORPG has to be like that. It does not have to be tab target but don't make the combat too quick either, otherwise it just takes away some part of the strategy we enjoyed in some slower games.
I do think that most games are being designed this way and if I want to play I just have to adapt and get adept.
Jumping/dodging constantly are one of the least desired things I want in a MMO.
If by jumping you mean the annoying bunny hopping some players do when PVPing, yeah it's annoying. Funny thing though, that happens just as much if not more in MMOS that are not action.
And active dodging in action MMOs is highly situational and by no means something you want to do all the time: quite often just stepping back or to the side of incoming damage is much more effective since you can continue to do damage yourself with ranged abilities and it's also not needed for puny attacks from trash that you know you can take just fine.
I have seen some people dodge and run constantly in action MMOS but that's usually just the ones who don't know what they're doing.
Yes I was referring to the bunny hopping....WHen I see that in a MMO I am out not long after.
Jumping/dodging constantly are one of the least desired things I want in a MMO.
It depends, if you play a class building on avoiding attacks with high mobility and little armor that is fine in my book. When my full plated knight have to do it all the time on the other hand it is just silly, I do have that large shield and impressive armor for other things then just looks.
And while plate armor isn't as hard to move in as most people think, running around in it like a rodeo clown in combat seems rather insane to me, not to mention exhausting. A cat burglar or acrobat should not feel the same way playing as a knight or landsknecht.
Many action combat based games miss that point which is too bad. Otherwise, if you don't enjoy running around dodging you pick a class that doesn't do that so much.
Totally agree! But I think there are enough threads about landsknecht that you can go talk about those there! XD
Jumping/dodging constantly are one of the least desired things I want in a MMO.
If by jumping you mean the annoying bunny hopping some players do when PVPing, yeah it's annoying. Funny thing though, that happens just as much if not more in MMOS that are not action.
And active dodging in action MMOs is highly situational and by no means something you want to do all the time: quite often just stepping back or to the side of incoming damage is much more effective since you can continue to do damage yourself with ranged abilities and it's also not needed for puny attacks from trash that you know you can take just fine.
I have seen some people dodge and run constantly in action MMOS but that's usually just the ones who don't know what they're doing.
Yes I was referring to the bunny hopping....WHen I see that in a MMO I am out not long after.
I have to admit that I "bunny-hopped" a lot in WoW. NOT because of PvP, but because Night Elves had the cool little "flip" that seemed totally random to me. I tried to "make it happen", buyt never could
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I just want a classic style RPG/MMORPG that isn't all about the cash shop and gamble boxes. I miss the days that when you buy a game or sub to a game you get access to the entire game and you actually have to play the game to acquire the items you want.
the only MMO in development that i can see even comes close to having a chance at recapturing that is pantheon rise of the fallen.
other than that i play games that are good enough for me to tolerate the shit i don't like.
Jumping/dodging constantly are one of the least desired things I want in a MMO.
If by jumping you mean the annoying bunny hopping some players do when PVPing, yeah it's annoying. Funny thing though, that happens just as much if not more in MMOS that are not action.
And active dodging in action MMOs is highly situational and by no means something you want to do all the time: quite often just stepping back or to the side of incoming damage is much more effective since you can continue to do damage yourself with ranged abilities and it's also not needed for puny attacks from trash that you know you can take just fine.
I have seen some people dodge and run constantly in action MMOS but that's usually just the ones who don't know what they're doing.
Yes I was referring to the bunny hopping....WHen I see that in a MMO I am out not long after.
not that i blame you but if it bothers you so much that you cannot play a game where people bunny hop, then you're very limited in game choice as most games have a jump option.
I wonder if action type combat is to blame or just lazy game programmers. I have never played an MMO with action type combat, but I think it could be interesting. What you said about action combat being all about DPS is troubling as I don't like DPS classes at all. I play MMO's for the support classes. I played a holy paladin in WoW and I wish that games had more non-DPS classes. I would like to see a class focused on in combat buffing. I would also like to see a class focused on in combat debuffing. A battlefield control class could be fun too. I feel like all of these could be done in action based combat system. We just have to think bigger than the narrow minded combat systems we have today.
Comments
"What breaks my immersion is when my supposedly master-skilled character messes up that skill repeatedly due to my ineptness. Some master they are
Essentially you seem to be saying "The game says I'm a master, but really I'm a bumbling fool and that breaks my ability to connect with my supposedly masterful character."
My counter is this: If I am a bumbling fool, then my character is a bumbling fool. I don't want the game to tell me I am a master. If I am going to be amazing and exceptional in the game universe, it should be because I am an amazing and exceptional player.
So there is no difference between me and my character in-game, and I don't want there to be. That illusion will be broken the first time I interact with a player on the same stat level who is amazing and exceptional anyway.
That's not to say I disagree about breaking away from rotation and having fun with twitch elements, I enjoy playing healers and for the most parts its a combination of triage and twitch with some mana management on the side. I find damage dealers boring because there's not much to pay attention to.
The biggest flaw in MMO combat is still the content, you are forced to wade through thousands of enemies to extend the gametime and for the most part its quite simple gameplay.
Those "action" mmos tend to give the players more options to have interesting and tactical fights than older games with simpler combat mechanics (like WoW), which is part of the appeal. But they are far from twitch-based FPS games where the gold goes to the player who can land the best headshots, etc.
Suffice to say, we have two very different ideas for RPGs
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I loved having boss fights that required people to interrupt, debuff, cleanse players or in general actually think about the fight. Not just go in, have one player tank it facing one direction while everyone else dances around the circles on the ground while spamming DPS skills.
There are some games still trying to do this, Project Gorgon has quite a bit of options in terms of specializing in classes and being able to mix different classes to get certain effects in combat. But in general it seems like most players now want to play in a game where everyone just rolls around spamming dps skills.
I wonder if there's even a possibility of a game doing well that actually requires thought out skills during combat in this current environment. It just seems like it wouldn't take on all that well.
Tab Targeting was great, I didn't have to have a mouse with 47 buttons on it to make sure I don't strain my hands trying to run while charging up skills while aiming at an enemy. Not saying I don't like that type of gameplay, but I really want to be able to think about fighting while it's happening. I want a buffer class that matters again, I loved being a support role, but now support roles basically just exist to be an off healer. In L2 I remember loving any time a support was willing to come with me, and every support class had different buffs that made different things easier.
For one. I don't think ninja rolls should be a regular class feature that comes with a double tap of any directional movement. In a class based system give it to like the rogue, and if you have a martial arts monk class that too. Makes sense. The paladin doesn't need duck and roll. The wizard doesn't need duck and roll. etc. If it's a non-class based system make it something you need to give up something else to have. Skill slots, point-buy etc. Finally make it something you must be wearing light armor to activate.
In terms of skill variety, there is no reason they can't have skill variety. As previously stated GW1 was the first limited ability bar game I ever played. Not only did it have skill variety, it had the best skill variety I had ever seen, enabled by it's limited ability bar. If I game has no cleanses it isn't because of action combat and limited ability bars. It's because they were too lazy to put them in.
IMHO we need to get back a bit again.
Away from the action combat we have today back to more tactical fights.
But not too far because some fight systems really are antiquated today.
Nowadays we have all the same roles in a game. While they may be different in certain areas (AoE - single target, Pure Tank - Tank with more damage, Direct healer - Dot healer) I'm missing classes like support, cc, interrupter, buffer.
Its just the games don't need them anymore.
Tell me one game in the last 5 years where you couldn't run through most of the dungeons easily and either you did enough damage before the tank died or you didn't.
Where is the content where you have to CC some mobs.
Mostly the CC skills exist but the game mechanics don't support this kind of game play.
I'm pretty sure that the last 5 games I have played an mage I never had to "root" an NPC enemy in a dungeon.
And if I had to I couldn't lock them for even half of the fight.
Because every game is a PvE-PvP hybrid today, no class has the ability anymore to lock down an enemy for a longer period.
The next thing simplified is the every class can do everything in his role.
This was made because no class should be locked out from certain content because he is not that useful as his counterparty.
I think this is just lazy work, so you don't have to develop a dungeon to have situations where every class can shine.
But IMHO they take it even further by creating games with less different classes that we had 10 Years ago. And if they have more than tank, healer, rogue, mage, ranger, they all feel the same. Every magic dd gets the same tools, or if they have different ones you really don't need them.
Just avoid red markers on the floor and do damage, heal or tank.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
I do agree action orientated games are a lot of fun but not every MMORPG has to be like that. It does not have to be tab target but don't make the combat too quick either, otherwise it just takes away some part of the strategy we enjoyed in some slower games.
I do think that most games are being designed this way and if I want to play I just have to adapt and get adept.
But I think there are enough threads about landsknecht that you can go talk about those there! XD
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
the only MMO in development that i can see even comes close to having a chance at recapturing that is pantheon rise of the fallen.
other than that i play games that are good enough for me to tolerate the shit i don't like.