Look at the progression of D&D since its inception. D&D was created from the desire to give more story depth and interaction to the TT game "Chainmail". In the inception and progression of D&D, attitudes split on the attention to game play. Gygax believed structured rules and systems balanced with creative play were key to the progression of the game while Arneson believed only creative play was important, with rules and systems being subject to conditional need of attending to such.
Though Gygax said that if one doesn't like a rule then change it/remove it, it was up tot he players.
That's what I did. I threw out most of the bean counting and stuck to story telling/adventure.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Look at the progression of D&D since its inception. D&D was created from the desire to give more story depth and interaction to the TT game "Chainmail". In the inception and progression of D&D, attitudes split on the attention to game play. Gygax believed structured rules and systems balanced with creative play were key to the progression of the game while Arneson believed only creative play was important, with rules and systems being subject to conditional need of attending to such.
Though Gygax said that if one doesn't like a rule then change it/remove it, it was up tot he players.
That's what I did. I threw out most of the bean counting and stuck to story telling/adventure.
Yes, but he did not advocate what you describe. He was talking about rules and restrictions that impeded game play of the group. What you describe is what Arneson believed, and that was putting rules as secondary and focusing merely on the story and adventure. That is not what Gygax was describing when he said that both were equally important in play (which is also what he prefaces in the AD&D DM guide).
If you stripped out all of AD&D recommended rules and structure, then you wasted your money and were better off buying the D&D rule sets which were extremely simplified and only existed as a core base to give some very basic structure to encounters.
It's like a forest of straw men are having their annual convention. I never said they would be the same. I said that I believe Pantheon will feel a little (there is that word again)more more like D&D than many other mmos (listing ways that would be true in a supplemental post). Whether that is good or bad is subjective, as are most things said in this forum.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
It's like a forest of straw men are having their annual convention. I never said they would be the same. I said that I believe Pantheon will feel a little (there is that word again)more more like D&D than many other mmos (listing ways that would be true in a supplemental post). Whether that is good or bad is subjective, as are most things said in this forum.
Seriously Amathe?
You start a thread with a vague point as:
"With some modern graphics, sure. But even more than games like Everquest, I would love to experience a little of this (and yes I know the pic is full of mistakes):"
Then admonish everyone for misunderstanding your point?
"A little of this"
What does that even mean? Then, people come in and answer, and your first response to to act disappointed by people claiming they took you out of context?
Yeah, I am long winded, I over explain and spend and enormous amount of time trying to detail my point. This angers some people, fine... but you can never accuse me of not adequately expressing my view in the most clear and detailed manner. So when I admonish people for such, it is well earned.
You make a vague mention, then start lobbing out fallacies like everyone is taking you out of context.
Explain yourself better Amathe, or at least be a bit more humble in correcting people when they misunderstand you.
Does the best job of delivering that expereince in a digital space , matter a fact , they pretty much nail it unless, someone would also need simulated farts
Feeding your dog a hotdog can fix that problem also
Look at the progression of D&D since its inception. D&D was created from the desire to give more story depth and interaction to the TT game "Chainmail". In the inception and progression of D&D, attitudes split on the attention to game play. Gygax believed structured rules and systems balanced with creative play were key to the progression of the game while Arneson believed only creative play was important, with rules and systems being subject to conditional need of attending to such.
Though Gygax said that if one doesn't like a rule then change it/remove it, it was up tot he players.
That's what I did. I threw out most of the bean counting and stuck to story telling/adventure.
Yes, but he did not advocate what you describe. He was talking about rules and restrictions that impeded game play of the group. What you describe is what Arneson believed, and that was putting rules as secondary and focusing merely on the story and adventure. That is not what Gygax was describing when he said that both were equally important in play (which is also what he prefaces in the AD&D DM guide).
If you stripped out all of AD&D recommended rules and structure, then you wasted your money and were better off buying the D&D rule sets which were extremely simplified and only existed as a core base to give some very basic structure to encounters.
That's not how I read his quote. Do you know if any discussion or article where he clarifies it?
Also it's not a waste of money (omg gamers) because having more options to pick and choose from is better than having a very limited set of options.
My problem with pen and paper gamers is that they are so fixated on charts and graphs and rules and numbers that they take the life out of the experience.
Gygax said "make it your own" so that pretty much means, "make it your own." Now, if there is a clarification somewhere I'd love to read it. Though, understandably, it would be hard to find I imagine.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Look at the progression of D&D since its inception. D&D was created from the desire to give more story depth and interaction to the TT game "Chainmail". In the inception and progression of D&D, attitudes split on the attention to game play. Gygax believed structured rules and systems balanced with creative play were key to the progression of the game while Arneson believed only creative play was important, with rules and systems being subject to conditional need of attending to such.
Though Gygax said that if one doesn't like a rule then change it/remove it, it was up tot he players.
That's what I did. I threw out most of the bean counting and stuck to story telling/adventure.
Yes, but he did not advocate what you describe. He was talking about rules and restrictions that impeded game play of the group. What you describe is what Arneson believed, and that was putting rules as secondary and focusing merely on the story and adventure. That is not what Gygax was describing when he said that both were equally important in play (which is also what he prefaces in the AD&D DM guide).
If you stripped out all of AD&D recommended rules and structure, then you wasted your money and were better off buying the D&D rule sets which were extremely simplified and only existed as a core base to give some very basic structure to encounters.
That's not how I read his quote. Do you know if any discussion or article where he clarifies it?
Also it's not a waste of money (omg gamers) because having more options to pick and choose from is better than having a very limited set of options.
My problem with pen and paper gamers is that they are so fixated on charts and graphs and rules and numbers that they take the life out of the experience.
Gygax said "make it your own" so that pretty much means, "make it your own." Now, if there is a clarification somewhere I'd love to read it. Though, understandably, it would be hard to find I imagine.
In the first edition DM guide, he explains the intent of why AD&D was created. D&D red box was the first attempt, it was very vague on rules and structure and he felt this caused issues in play. While he understood the need for flexibility to the world in order to preserve the adventure, he also felt it necessary to adhere to a structure (which is why the first edition AD&D DM guide is filled with world physics and structure to play).
It wasn't that he claiming people must hold to a specfic structure of play that he provided, rather he was saying structure to a system of rules was extremely important, and that regardless of which system you choose, the goal should be balancing both the need to allow freedom of the player, but hold it to a given responsibility of the environment. That is the essence of why he created AD&D.
Read the first edition AD&D material, also.... he did a lot of interviews on this in Dragon Magazine over the years which I think you can find all the past issues online if you are interested.
Point is, the idea that a system needs no rules or structure and is subject to only the story and adventure telling is an Arneson position.
Nothing wrong with that, but that is D&D, not AD&D. There is a distinct difference in direction of play and structure.
Now keep in mind, this is all theory in play. At the end of the day, you as GM decide what is best for your players, I am merely stating the intention and goals of AD&D as Gygax envisioned. If "free for all" design and loose play was what he intended, he would have never had a difference with Arneson.
"With some modern graphics, sure. But even more than games like Everquest, I would love to experience a little of this (and yes I know the pic is full of mistakes):"
Then admonish everyone for misunderstanding your point?
I wasn't writing for a scientific journal. I wasn't introducing a bill to Congress. I expressed my own personal aspiration (see "I would love") for what I hope Pantheon will feel like to me, at least a "little."
You and some others have since acted as if I am somehow objectively wrong, and am saying that mmorpgs and table top games are the same, largely by misstating my positions and intentions. I find that very silly lol.
But I get that you disagree with me. Noted for the record. And now, as the ultimate arbiter of my personal likes, dislikes, hopes and dreams, let me rule on your objections. OVERRULED.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
No offense, but the entire thread is silly. You will never (never ever) get a PC game to feel like a tabletop game. The rules, the mechanics, the interactions are different - and they can't be imitated. Here are a few examples: How someone rolls a die? Sure a computer can do it. But it doesn't have flair, missteps, a pun attached. My character jumps on the chandelier. In a computer game, no. My character tosses our warrior a healing potion. Oops. He missed and it cracked and is leaking all over the ground. The fighter jumps on the ground and starts slurping it up. And so on and so on. There are no computers that can model the physics of the real world. There are no computers that can think of everything you're trying to do and imagine it. And there is no feeling that duplicates being at the table with friends, playing, joking, getting serious, and spilling soda on a damn book.
"With some modern graphics, sure. But even more than games like Everquest, I would love to experience a little of this (and yes I know the pic is full of mistakes):"
Then admonish everyone for misunderstanding your point?
I wasn't writing for a scientific journal. I wasn't introducing a bill to Congress. I expressed my own personal aspiration (see "I would love") for what I hope Pantheon will feel like to me, at least a "little."
You and some others have since acted as if I am somehow objectively wrong, and am saying that mmorpgs and table top games are the same, largely by misstating my positions and intentions. I find that very silly lol.
But I get that you disagree with me. Noted for the record. And now, as the ultimate arbiter of my personal likes, dislikes, hopes and dreams, let me rule on your objections. OVERRULED.
No, we merely provided discussion based on what we perceived to be your position. It is up to you then to clarify and correct to properly establish your position.
You offered a vague position. People took that as they would and then offered commentary.
It isn't the fact that you corrected them that is the issue, rather it is your claim of fallacious merit that is the problem "It's like a forest of straw men are having their annual convention.".
I pointed out that your points were vague and it is natural for such confusion to which you could have easily corrected WITHOUT the accusations of ill intent. My comments concerning your last point were direct to that position.
Your reaction was to follow this line:
"I wasn't writing for a scientific journal. I wasn't introducing a bill to Congress. I expressed my own personal aspiration (see "I would love") for what I hope Pantheon will feel like to me, at least a "little." "
The thing is, this is a discussion board and it is important that people clarify their points OR AT THE VERY LEAST!!!! Not get upset if someone mistakes their point, ESPECIALLY when their point was EXTREMELY vague.
So, you were misunderstood, people didn't catch your meaning, fine... but please throw away the whole crap about how we are nefariously trying to confound you. It serves no end.
Show a little humility and simply make that effort to reach to a proper understanding rather than taking the defense and getting upset about misunderstandings.
We are all adults here (I can hope) there is no need to get into contests over misunderstandings, the moment clarification is reached, it should be the end of any dispute.
Why is this posted in a Pantheon forum? No MMORPG ever made has the same social impact as tabletop gaming.
From personal experience its MMORPGs that helped to kill off our table top gaming groups.
Nah, they died over time due to life demands (wives/husbands, family, work, etc...).
The height of my TT experience was during my college days. Once people were married, had kids, delved into work, etc... The time for such became limited and weighted and so like the meetings of friends to join together to toast a pint of ale and take part in social comradery faded, so did the meetings of such interaction in TT games.
There were the dedicated few, but they were few and far between. MMOs provided a means to achieve some sense of that old interaction, but in shorter less required intervals, but even then, most of those who I knew who stopped TT gaming, also found little time in MMO game as well.
Good news is that technology allows for TT gaming advancement, but like it was in the old days, finding those interested is limited and focused to specific social groups and types.
The thing is, this is a discussion board and it is important that people clarify their points OR AT THE VERY LEAST!!!! Not get upset if someone mistakes their point, ESPECIALLY when their point was EXTREMELY vague.
Getting upset, as in typing in all caps? You crack me up sir.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
The thing is, this is a discussion board and it is important that people clarify their points OR AT THE VERY LEAST!!!! Not get upset if someone mistakes their point, ESPECIALLY when their point was EXTREMELY vague.
Getting upset, as in typing in all caps? You crack me up sir.
It was meant to "HIGHLIGHT" a given point, bring focus to the main issue.
Yeah, going to move on. It appears that you and this board have not changed.
Children and emotionally driven intellects. I no doubt Pantheon will be filled with you folks, I think I will pass, more important things in life than to argue with children.
It's like a forest of straw men are having their annual convention. I never said they would be the same. I said that I believe Pantheon will feel a little (there is that word again)more more like D&D than many other mmos (listing ways that would be true in a supplemental post). Whether that is good or bad is subjective, as are most things said in this forum.
That's a field of straw men surely?
Until we get Artificial Intelligence game masters no MMO will be that close to a table top game, though some private servers on the likes of Neverwinter did and I think do try. As to Pantheon we will have to just wait and see.
Why is this posted in a Pantheon forum? No MMORPG ever made has the same social impact as tabletop gaming.
From personal experience its MMORPGs that helped to kill off our table top gaming groups.
Indeed, MMORPG's soaked up loads of players who would have ended up in table top. This even led to a new definition of what roleplaying was meant to be about...immersion.
The thing is, this is a discussion board and it is important that people clarify their points OR AT THE VERY LEAST!!!! Not get upset if someone mistakes their point, ESPECIALLY when their point was EXTREMELY vague.
Getting upset, as in typing in all caps? You crack me up sir.
It was meant to "HIGHLIGHT" a given point, bring focus to the main issue.
Yeah, going to move on. It appears that you and this board have not changed.
Children and emotionally driven intellects. I no doubt Pantheon will be filled with you folks, I think I will pass, more important things in life than to argue with children.
And I see you are back to threatening to quit the boards, quit the game, quit your local Moose Lodge if anyone disagrees with you.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Back when I played P&P adnd, I dreamt of doing it on computer, but what I was thinking was that we each would have a laptop in front of us while still sitting at the same table. That way each of us could get messages from the DM without anyone else seeing it, and the rolling could be sped up.
The thing is, this is a discussion board and it is important that people clarify their points OR AT THE VERY LEAST!!!! Not get upset if someone mistakes their point, ESPECIALLY when their point was EXTREMELY vague.
Getting upset, as in typing in all caps? You crack me up sir.
It was meant to "HIGHLIGHT" a given point, bring focus to the main issue.
Yeah, going to move on. It appears that you and this board have not changed.
Children and emotionally driven intellects. I no doubt Pantheon will be filled with you folks, I think I will pass, more important things in life than to argue with children.
And I see you are back to threatening to quit the boards, quit the game, quit your local Moose Lodge if anyone disagrees with you.
Awesome, with one headshot I think you just won the battle.
This game is too easy sometimes, especially against those who feel they are above it all.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
When I was in my teens (Late 80's). We would have epic Risk battles. These games were so great my friends and me pretended we were historical people. One was always Hitler, Mussolini, Napoleon etc etc lol. The whole neighborhood would watch these games Those were good times. Back then being politically correct wasn't even a thought. Trash talking, racism, nobody gave a shit about any of it. All that mattered was winning. If your feelings got hurt oh well deal with it. I miss those days actually.
When I was in my teens (Late 80's). We would have epic Risk battles. These games were so great my friends and me pretended we were historical people. One was always Hitler, Mussolini, Napoleon etc etc lol. The whole neighborhood would watch these games Those were good times. Back then being politically correct wasn't even a thought. Trash talking, racism, nobody gave a shit about any of it.
I just got off a cruise and we were stuck at sea due to Hurricane Bud. I would up playing Risk with a few others. We had our own epic game and I totally forgot how much fun it was.
Comments
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
If you stripped out all of AD&D recommended rules and structure, then you wasted your money and were better off buying the D&D rule sets which were extremely simplified and only existed as a core base to give some very basic structure to encounters.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
You start a thread with a vague point as:
"With some modern graphics, sure. But even more than games like Everquest, I would love to experience a little of this (and yes I know the pic is full of mistakes):"
Then admonish everyone for misunderstanding your point?
"A little of this"
What does that even mean? Then, people come in and answer, and your first response to to act disappointed by people claiming they took you out of context?
Yeah, I am long winded, I over explain and spend and enormous amount of time trying to detail my point. This angers some people, fine... but you can never accuse me of not adequately expressing my view in the most clear and detailed manner. So when I admonish people for such, it is well earned.
You make a vague mention, then start lobbing out fallacies like everyone is taking you out of context.
Explain yourself better Amathe, or at least be a bit more humble in correcting people when they misunderstand you.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It wasn't that he claiming people must hold to a specfic structure of play that he provided, rather he was saying structure to a system of rules was extremely important, and that regardless of which system you choose, the goal should be balancing both the need to allow freedom of the player, but hold it to a given responsibility of the environment. That is the essence of why he created AD&D.
Read the first edition AD&D material, also.... he did a lot of interviews on this in Dragon Magazine over the years which I think you can find all the past issues online if you are interested.
Point is, the idea that a system needs no rules or structure and is subject to only the story and adventure telling is an Arneson position.
Nothing wrong with that, but that is D&D, not AD&D. There is a distinct difference in direction of play and structure.
Now keep in mind, this is all theory in play. At the end of the day, you as GM decide what is best for your players, I am merely stating the intention and goals of AD&D as Gygax envisioned. If "free for all" design and loose play was what he intended, he would have never had a difference with Arneson.
Anyway, playing more tabletops these days than video games let me turn you guys attention to two amazing tabletops.
The City of Kings, made for gamers and inspired by mmorpg. Creator is a big wow fan.
Gloomhaven, basically D&D without a DM and has held the #1 spot on Board Game Geek for like a year now.
Your welcome.
You and some others have since acted as if I am somehow objectively wrong, and am saying that mmorpgs and table top games are the same, largely by misstating my positions and intentions. I find that very silly lol.
But I get that you disagree with me. Noted for the record. And now, as the ultimate arbiter of my personal likes, dislikes, hopes and dreams, let me rule on your objections. OVERRULED.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Here are a few examples: How someone rolls a die? Sure a computer can do it. But it doesn't have flair, missteps, a pun attached. My character jumps on the chandelier. In a computer game, no. My character tosses our warrior a healing potion. Oops. He missed and it cracked and is leaking all over the ground. The fighter jumps on the ground and starts slurping it up. And so on and so on.
There are no computers that can model the physics of the real world. There are no computers that can think of everything you're trying to do and imagine it. And there is no feeling that duplicates being at the table with friends, playing, joking, getting serious, and spilling soda on a damn book.
You offered a vague position. People took that as they would and then offered commentary.
It isn't the fact that you corrected them that is the issue, rather it is your claim of fallacious merit that is the problem "It's like a forest of straw men are having their annual convention.".
I pointed out that your points were vague and it is natural for such confusion to which you could have easily corrected WITHOUT the accusations of ill intent. My comments concerning your last point were direct to that position.
Your reaction was to follow this line:
"I wasn't writing for a scientific journal. I wasn't introducing a bill to Congress. I expressed my own personal aspiration (see "I would love") for what I hope Pantheon will feel like to me, at least a "little." "
The thing is, this is a discussion board and it is important that people clarify their points OR AT THE VERY LEAST!!!! Not get upset if someone mistakes their point, ESPECIALLY when their point was EXTREMELY vague.
So, you were misunderstood, people didn't catch your meaning, fine... but please throw away the whole crap about how we are nefariously trying to confound you. It serves no end.
Show a little humility and simply make that effort to reach to a proper understanding rather than taking the defense and getting upset about misunderstandings.
We are all adults here (I can hope) there is no need to get into contests over misunderstandings, the moment clarification is reached, it should be the end of any dispute.
The height of my TT experience was during my college days. Once people were married, had kids, delved into work, etc... The time for such became limited and weighted and so like the meetings of friends to join together to toast a pint of ale and take part in social comradery faded, so did the meetings of such interaction in TT games.
There were the dedicated few, but they were few and far between. MMOs provided a means to achieve some sense of that old interaction, but in shorter less required intervals, but even then, most of those who I knew who stopped TT gaming, also found little time in MMO game as well.
Good news is that technology allows for TT gaming advancement, but like it was in the old days, finding those interested is limited and focused to specific social groups and types.
Such is life, eh?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Yeah, going to move on. It appears that you and this board have not changed.
Children and emotionally driven intellects. I no doubt Pantheon will be filled with you folks, I think I will pass, more important things in life than to argue with children.
Until we get Artificial Intelligence game masters no MMO will be that close to a table top game, though some private servers on the likes of Neverwinter did and I think do try. As to Pantheon we will have to just wait and see.
Indeed, MMORPG's soaked up loads of players who would have ended up in table top. This even led to a new definition of what roleplaying was meant to be about...immersion.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
This game is too easy sometimes, especially against those who feel they are above it all.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests