Mondays in MMORPGs - 'Have Players Forgotten How to Play in a Group-Based Game?' - Saga of Lucimia -

SBFord · July 2018

Mondays in MMORPGs - 'Have Players Forgotten How to Play in a Group-Based Game?' - Saga of Lucimia - MMORPG.com

Saga of Lucimia News - The latest Monday in MMORPGs has been published on the Saga of Lucimia site. The lengthy post takes a look at grouping in games overall, and specifically in MMORPGs. It rhetorically wonders if players have "forgotten how to play in group-based game(s)" and "what strategy is" and "how to ask for help" and about proper group balance.

Read the full story here

qoona · July 2018

You are asking wrong question. The real one is "have players forgot how to play a game?"

Wolfyseyes · July 2018

qoona said:

You are asking wrong question. The real one is "have players forgot how to play a game?"

...and this mindset, right there, is the reason why people don't want to reach out. Because of the too-frequent chance that they'll run into someone exasperated by the idea of divergent skill levels. And that's the kindest bad experience one can hope for.

Albatroes · July 2018

A game's playerbase tends to reflect the product. Many of these games are designed around the "one-man-army" concept and the player-base's level of skill tends to represent that. Another core system is how people are rewarded. Many of these games will reward you with minorly inferior things compared to the most difficult with a time limit that will automatically raise the rewards overtime for conducting the same activities. There's no real motivation in many of these games to play better other than bragging rights, which a large portion of mmorpgs dont care about anymore.

vanderghast · July 2018

People haven't forgotten how to group or socialize in game, they have instead flat out rejected that playstyle, in many parts due to blatant toxicity of their fellow players. That and being reliant on others to get anything done isn't fun. We all have enough of that in real life and we play these games to be heroes not to be forced to cooperate with someone elses goals as in life.

Renfail · July 2018

vanderghast said:

People haven't forgotten how to group or socialize in game, they have instead flat out rejected that playstyle, in many parts due to blatant toxicity of their fellow players. That and being reliant on others to get anything done isn't fun. We all have enough of that in real life and we play these games to be heroes not to be forced to cooperate with someone elses goals as in life.

Don't forget to preface with "in my opinion."

Because many of us thrive on tabletop games and board games and MMORPGs that focus on the group element, because for us, the fun is in the social gameplay that these games bring.

Jason could not have overcome many of the challenges he faced without the Argonauts.

Zeus could not have taken on the Titans without the help of his fellow gods.

To be truly heroic, one must overcome odds that are beyond what one can face on their own

MidPrincess · July 2018

vanderghast said:

People haven't forgotten how to group or socialize in game, they have instead flat out rejected that playstyle, in many parts due to blatant toxicity of their fellow players. That and being reliant on others to get anything done isn't fun. We all have enough of that in real life and we play these games to be heroes not to be forced to cooperate with someone elses goals as in life.

You said a lot of what I was going to say. I enjoy group content as much as anyone, but I think too many games now are forcing it upon people, requiring it in order to progress. To me, the very best games allow each player to choose when they want to group, and when they want to go solo. I don't understand the idea that playing an MMO should 'always' mean you are grouping with others; that just doesn't make any sense.

I think the other issue nowadays is that most gamers' idea of researching builds or skills is asking, "What is meta?" in chat. As a community, it seems as if our attention spans are at an all-time low. Most players can't be bothered to read, or to take others' opinions into account.

Renfail · July 2018

MidPrincess said:

vanderghast said:

People haven't forgotten how to group or socialize in game, they have instead flat out rejected that playstyle, in many parts due to blatant toxicity of their fellow players. That and being reliant on others to get anything done isn't fun. We all have enough of that in real life and we play these games to be heroes not to be forced to cooperate with someone elses goals as in life.

You said a lot of what I was going to say. I enjoy group content as much as anyone, but I think too many games now are forcing it upon people, requiring it in order to progress. To me, the very best games allow each player to choose when they want to group, and when they want to go solo. I don't understand the idea that playing an MMO should 'always' mean you are grouping with others; that just doesn't make any sense.

I think the other issue nowadays is that most gamers' idea of researching builds or skills is asking, "What is meta?" in chat. As a community, it seems as if our attention spans are at an all-time low. Most players can't be bothered to read, or to take others' opinions into account.

What about tabletop games? Or how about board games? In both cases, you are "forced" to need other players to complete the games. Should you be "allowed to solo" those games as well, despite the fact that they are designed to be social, community-based games?

Gobstopper3D · July 2018

Renfail said:

MidPrincess said:

vanderghast said:

People haven't forgotten how to group or socialize in game, they have instead flat out rejected that playstyle, in many parts due to blatant toxicity of their fellow players. That and being reliant on others to get anything done isn't fun. We all have enough of that in real life and we play these games to be heroes not to be forced to cooperate with someone elses goals as in life.

You said a lot of what I was going to say. I enjoy group content as much as anyone, but I think too many games now are forcing it upon people, requiring it in order to progress. To me, the very best games allow each player to choose when they want to group, and when they want to go solo. I don't understand the idea that playing an MMO should 'always' mean you are grouping with others; that just doesn't make any sense.

I think the other issue nowadays is that most gamers' idea of researching builds or skills is asking, "What is meta?" in chat. As a community, it seems as if our attention spans are at an all-time low. Most players can't be bothered to read, or to take others' opinions into account.

What about tabletop games? Or how about board games? In both cases, you are "forced" to need other players to complete the games. Should you be "allowed to solo" those games as well, despite the fact that they are designed to be social, community-based games?

I could be mistaken, but I thought this was about online games, not tabletop games..

Renfail · July 2018

Gobstopper3D said:

Renfail said:

MidPrincess said:

vanderghast said:

People haven't forgotten how to group or socialize in game, they have instead flat out rejected that playstyle, in many parts due to blatant toxicity of their fellow players. That and being reliant on others to get anything done isn't fun. We all have enough of that in real life and we play these games to be heroes not to be forced to cooperate with someone elses goals as in life.

You said a lot of what I was going to say. I enjoy group content as much as anyone, but I think too many games now are forcing it upon people, requiring it in order to progress. To me, the very best games allow each player to choose when they want to group, and when they want to go solo. I don't understand the idea that playing an MMO should 'always' mean you are grouping with others; that just doesn't make any sense.

I think the other issue nowadays is that most gamers' idea of researching builds or skills is asking, "What is meta?" in chat. As a community, it seems as if our attention spans are at an all-time low. Most players can't be bothered to read, or to take others' opinions into account.

What about tabletop games? Or how about board games? In both cases, you are "forced" to need other players to complete the games. Should you be "allowed to solo" those games as well, despite the fact that they are designed to be social, community-based games?

I could be mistaken, but I thought this was about online games, not tabletop games..

If you read the whole piece, not only the quotes pulled here to MMORPG.com, the entire piece is written about how there is no difference between an online game and a tabletop game or board game, and how MMORPGs are nothing more than tabletop games in an online space.

If someone has no issue with being "required" to "group" in order to play a board game like Monopoly or Settlers of Catan, or being "required" to "group" in order to play Dungeons and Dragons or Pathfinder or a tabletop game, why is it that they have an issue being required to group in an online game, when in fact that online game is nothing more than a digital version of a tabletop or board game?

After all, they all require you to be social, to play with others just like you were taught in grade school (share the sandbox, play nice with others, etc.), and to dedicate more than a 15 minute segment of time in order to complete the objectives.

What's the difference? That's the core of the post if you read it in its entirety.

Kyleran · July 2018

MidPrincess said:

vanderghast said:

People haven't forgotten how to group or socialize in game, they have instead flat out rejected that playstyle, in many parts due to blatant toxicity of their fellow players. That and being reliant on others to get anything done isn't fun. We all have enough of that in real life and we play these games to be heroes not to be forced to cooperate with someone elses goals as in life.

You said a lot of what I was going to say. I enjoy group content as much as anyone, but I think too many games now are forcing it upon people, requiring it in order to progress. To me, the very best games allow each player to choose when they want to group, and when they want to go solo. I don't understand the idea that playing an MMO should 'always' mean you are grouping with others; that just doesn't make any sense.

I think the other issue nowadays is that most gamers' idea of researching builds or skills is asking, "What is meta?" in chat. As a community, it seems as if our attention spans are at an all-time low. Most players can't be bothered to read, or to take others' opinions into account.

I had to check the date of this thread and see whether it was from 2003 or something.

What modern MMORPG has "forced group content" in order to progress?

Or are you referring to the end game raid content many MMOs have, which perhaps is the last bastion of grouping these days.

If so, then the article is correct, players have forgotten what group centric game play really is and many will not welcome its return.

Renfail · July 2018

Kyleran said:

MidPrincess said:

vanderghast said:

People haven't forgotten how to group or socialize in game, they have instead flat out rejected that playstyle, in many parts due to blatant toxicity of their fellow players. That and being reliant on others to get anything done isn't fun. We all have enough of that in real life and we play these games to be heroes not to be forced to cooperate with someone elses goals as in life.

You said a lot of what I was going to say. I enjoy group content as much as anyone, but I think too many games now are forcing it upon people, requiring it in order to progress. To me, the very best games allow each player to choose when they want to group, and when they want to go solo. I don't understand the idea that playing an MMO should 'always' mean you are grouping with others; that just doesn't make any sense.

I think the other issue nowadays is that most gamers' idea of researching builds or skills is asking, "What is meta?" in chat. As a community, it seems as if our attention spans are at an all-time low. Most players can't be bothered to read, or to take others' opinions into account.

I had to check the date of this thread and see whether it was from 2003 or something.

What modern MMORPG has "forced group content" in order to progress?

Or are you referring to the end game raid content many MMOs have, which perhaps is the last bastion of grouping these days.

If so, then the article is correct, players have forgotten what group centric game play really is and many will not welcome its return.

Indeed; there are zero video games that require groups these days, with the exception of end-game raid content and/or dungeons. And in many games, such as ESO, you can choose to solo many of those dungeons.

Meanwhile, you still need a group to play Monopoly or Dungeons & Dragons...but yet we aren't calling those games "hardcore".

It's a mind-boggling thing, to me.

Kyleran · July 2018

Gobstopper3D said:

Renfail said:

MidPrincess said:

vanderghast said:

People haven't forgotten how to group or socialize in game, they have instead flat out rejected that playstyle, in many parts due to blatant toxicity of their fellow players. That and being reliant on others to get anything done isn't fun. We all have enough of that in real life and we play these games to be heroes not to be forced to cooperate with someone elses goals as in life.

You said a lot of what I was going to say. I enjoy group content as much as anyone, but I think too many games now are forcing it upon people, requiring it in order to progress. To me, the very best games allow each player to choose when they want to group, and when they want to go solo. I don't understand the idea that playing an MMO should 'always' mean you are grouping with others; that just doesn't make any sense.

I think the other issue nowadays is that most gamers' idea of researching builds or skills is asking, "What is meta?" in chat. As a community, it seems as if our attention spans are at an all-time low. Most players can't be bothered to read, or to take others' opinions into account.

What about tabletop games? Or how about board games? In both cases, you are "forced" to need other players to complete the games. Should you be "allowed to solo" those games as well, despite the fact that they are designed to be social, community-based games?

I could be mistaken, but I thought this was about online games, not tabletop games..

Also, table top board games are generally played with friends rather than strangers.

Even if played in a gaming "club" you won't run into the same level of disrespect as online, because if someone did so, there would be "consequences" for sure, at least if they were sitting across from me.

Sovrath · July 2018

Gobstopper3D said:

Renfail said:

MidPrincess said:

vanderghast said:

People haven't forgotten how to group or socialize in game, they have instead flat out rejected that playstyle, in many parts due to blatant toxicity of their fellow players. That and being reliant on others to get anything done isn't fun. We all have enough of that in real life and we play these games to be heroes not to be forced to cooperate with someone elses goals as in life.

You said a lot of what I was going to say. I enjoy group content as much as anyone, but I think too many games now are forcing it upon people, requiring it in order to progress. To me, the very best games allow each player to choose when they want to group, and when they want to go solo. I don't understand the idea that playing an MMO should 'always' mean you are grouping with others; that just doesn't make any sense.

I think the other issue nowadays is that most gamers' idea of researching builds or skills is asking, "What is meta?" in chat. As a community, it seems as if our attention spans are at an all-time low. Most players can't be bothered to read, or to take others' opinions into account.

What about tabletop games? Or how about board games? In both cases, you are "forced" to need other players to complete the games. Should you be "allowed to solo" those games as well, despite the fact that they are designed to be social, community-based games?

I could be mistaken, but I thought this was about online games, not tabletop games..

His point is that there are games that have game play based on group interaction. An online game doesn't have to be different.

While Qoona's point about the toxicity of (some) players is spot on, the other part is just preference/opinion.

As a "solo player" I do admit that group play is its own thing and offers a very unique experience. I can understand why there are players who like/prefer it.

Playing an mmo does not mean that you "always" have to be grouped unless that mmo specifically advertises itself as a "group" mmo.

Not all mmo's have to be the same so there can be an ffa pvp mmo, a completely group mmo, etc.

The issue is that some players want all mmo's to cater to all players. Or at least "their" play preferences. And that's just not realistic.

SBFord · July 2018

Renfail said:

Indeed; there are zero video games that require groups these days, with the exception of end-game raid content and/or dungeons. And in many games, such as ESO, you can choose to solo many of those dungeons.

Meanwhile, you still need a group to play Monopoly or Dungeons & Dragons...but yet we aren't calling those games "hardcore".

It's a mind-boggling thing, to me.

Monopoly is a competitive "battle royale", not a cooperative game, though I'm sure what you're alluding to is that it takes a group to play. Still, if I wanted to play alone, I could.

Semantics, but it's true. You're not "cooperatively" working with anyone. You're trying to, in effect, "kill them all", at least financially.

You've said many times that Saga of Lucimia is a niche game trying to carve its own path in the MMO space. This ostensible "forced grouping" makes that very plain and will, I'm sure, appeal to a certain segment of players.

bobbymcswanson · July 2018

Are we seriously complaining about having to group for some of the content? I'm sad for MMOs.......

Kyleran · July 2018

Renfail said:

MidPrincess said:

vanderghast said:

People haven't forgotten how to group or socialize in game, they have instead flat out rejected that playstyle, in many parts due to blatant toxicity of their fellow players. That and being reliant on others to get anything done isn't fun. We all have enough of that in real life and we play these games to be heroes not to be forced to cooperate with someone elses goals as in life.

You said a lot of what I was going to say. I enjoy group content as much as anyone, but I think too many games now are forcing it upon people, requiring it in order to progress. To me, the very best games allow each player to choose when they want to group, and when they want to go solo. I don't understand the idea that playing an MMO should 'always' mean you are grouping with others; that just doesn't make any sense.

I think the other issue nowadays is that most gamers' idea of researching builds or skills is asking, "What is meta?" in chat. As a community, it seems as if our attention spans are at an all-time low. Most players can't be bothered to read, or to take others' opinions into account.

What about tabletop games? Or how about board games? In both cases, you are "forced" to need other players to complete the games. Should you be "allowed to solo" those games as well, despite the fact that they are designed to be social, community-based games?

Yeah, about those, I don't play them, likely won't play your game either.

It's OK, not like you want my money anyways, you guys are more of a charity after all.

pantaro · July 2018

Sovrath said:

Gobstopper3D said:

Renfail said:

MidPrincess said:

vanderghast said:

People haven't forgotten how to group or socialize in game, they have instead flat out rejected that playstyle, in many parts due to blatant toxicity of their fellow players. That and being reliant on others to get anything done isn't fun. We all have enough of that in real life and we play these games to be heroes not to be forced to cooperate with someone elses goals as in life.

You said a lot of what I was going to say. I enjoy group content as much as anyone, but I think too many games now are forcing it upon people, requiring it in order to progress. To me, the very best games allow each player to choose when they want to group, and when they want to go solo. I don't understand the idea that playing an MMO should 'always' mean you are grouping with others; that just doesn't make any sense.

I think the other issue nowadays is that most gamers' idea of researching builds or skills is asking, "What is meta?" in chat. As a community, it seems as if our attention spans are at an all-time low. Most players can't be bothered to read, or to take others' opinions into account.

What about tabletop games? Or how about board games? In both cases, you are "forced" to need other players to complete the games. Should you be "allowed to solo" those games as well, despite the fact that they are designed to be social, community-based games?

I could be mistaken, but I thought this was about online games, not tabletop games..

The issue is that some players want all mmo's to cater to all players. Or at least "their" play preferences. And that's just not realistic.

this is one of my biggest issues with most themepark mmo's just ok at everything but great at nothing,because we need to cater to every single man,woman and child and their current whims and they always end up with a whole lot of neglected content because of it

Mikeha · July 2018

This generation does not care about grouping.

Renfail · July 2018

DMKano said:

Its not the question of forgetting how to, its more of an issue "dont want to bother grouping or socializing period"

Some just dont have the patience nor desire to deal with other people.

But if you build a cooperative instead of competitive game - the group centric players will come.

The game design drives the community more than anything else

Yep!

Mendel · July 2018

The drive for a return to grouping has mystified me. Developers seem to think that there is some number of groupers out there, and are banking on attracting enough of these to form a sizable, stable market segment. Maybe there are, but that isn't the characteristic I'd use to represent most of the current gaming market.

Yes, yes. "It's a niche game." I hope this segment is really as populous as people seem to believe, otherwise there will be a lot of empty MMORPGs sometime in our future. This reliance on an unknown market segment could be the most threatening thing the genre of MMORPGs could face. Toss a couple of failures on top of the current depressed state of the current mix, and no one will be willing to make these types of games in the future. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

Cazriel · July 2018

Renfail said:

DMKano said:

Its not the question of forgetting how to, its more of an issue "dont want to bother grouping or socializing period"

Some just dont have the patience nor desire to deal with other people.

But if you build a cooperative instead of competitive game - the group centric players will come.

The game design drives the community more than anything else

Yep!

As Suzie said, tabletop games are not co-operative. Only one person wins. Tabletop games are competitive. Additionally, tabletop games are in-person games, usually with people you know. Unless you're willing to go to the park with your board and ask strangers to play your game, there is really no comparison between playing Monopoly with family and friends and grouping to quest.

And if I had a buck for every time someone asked for help with a quest or landscape boss and was told by multiple responders, "You can solo that, L2P," I'd be rich.

I've used LFG in a number of games to accomplish goals that require grouping. There is ZERO social interaction. People don't befriend you, don't even speak to you, and only care that you don't make them fail. There is no discussion of tactics or strategy or even the courtesy of waiting for players who have paused for whatever reason. In other words, simple common courtesy is completely missing from most group experiences in MMOs. YOU do not exist for the other gamers.

If this is modern MMO socializing content, screw that.

MadFrenchie · July 2018

vanderghast said:

People haven't forgotten how to group or socialize in game, they have instead flat out rejected that playstyle, in many parts due to blatant toxicity of their fellow players. That and being reliant on others to get anything done isn't fun. We all have enough of that in real life and we play these games to be heroes not to be forced to cooperate with someone elses goals as in life.

That's really no reason to abandon the idea of interactivity within MMORPGs. Merely, better systems are needed for identifying and punishing bad actors through ostracization or more proactive responses, just like in real life.

Blizzard has shown themselves sensitive to the topic, which is why they have such a robust reputation system within Overwatch, and why they're responses to bad actors in HotS is swift and merciless.

However, it is human nature to experience anxiety and tentative doubt in response to speaking with a complete stranger, so it's a much easier response to simply avoid it wholesale. Unfortunately, that is a death knell for the genre as properly defined. You can create small-group multiplayer games such as Division and Destiny that do solo and highly selective group content much better. You can include things like in-game economies through the use of auction houses, as there's no real community interaction needed to post items and purchase them from other players in that situation. The community and widespread multiplayer aspect of MMORPGs are the only unique traits they can leverage better than those small-group multiplayer games. It would be foolish for the genre to abandon them completely. The already shrinking market share would only shrink faster.

Panther2103 · July 2018

Renfail said:

MidPrincess said:

vanderghast said:

People haven't forgotten how to group or socialize in game, they have instead flat out rejected that playstyle, in many parts due to blatant toxicity of their fellow players. That and being reliant on others to get anything done isn't fun. We all have enough of that in real life and we play these games to be heroes not to be forced to cooperate with someone elses goals as in life.

You said a lot of what I was going to say. I enjoy group content as much as anyone, but I think too many games now are forcing it upon people, requiring it in order to progress. To me, the very best games allow each player to choose when they want to group, and when they want to go solo. I don't understand the idea that playing an MMO should 'always' mean you are grouping with others; that just doesn't make any sense.

I think the other issue nowadays is that most gamers' idea of researching builds or skills is asking, "What is meta?" in chat. As a community, it seems as if our attention spans are at an all-time low. Most players can't be bothered to read, or to take others' opinions into account.

What about tabletop games? Or how about board games? In both cases, you are "forced" to need other players to complete the games. Should you be "allowed to solo" those games as well, despite the fact that they are designed to be social, community-based games?

You are forced to need other players to play Tabletop, but in my experience, almost nobody is so eager to play a Boardgame or Tabletop game without at least one other person they know. I have never once had the urge to go to a hobby store and play D&D with randoms there, or even Warhammer 40k and I play that quite a bit with friends.

The major difference here is, online you are more often than not, grouping with people you have never seen or met, you don't know what they are like. You can have a group where one guy flies off the edge and starts raging about everything everyone does. Also the problem of finding players wanting to do the same task as you is obnoxious sometimes. There can be times where you have absolutely nobody wanting to tackle the same thing, or if the game is too dead to group until a later point.

You don't go into a board game or table top game expecting to play Solo, but they do in fact make table top and board games for 1 player, just in case you don't have other people to play.

The only thing I've ever played with people I didn't know in real life was MTG, and even then it wasn't fun, because I didn't know them well enough.

Zeppel80 · July 2018

This whole argument rests on a false premise, that comparing tabletop gaming to online gaming is a valid comparison; it's not. As someone above has implied, in tabletop gaming rules of etiquette are enforced by the fact that other people are physically present. In online gaming, where other players only have a digital presence, rules of etiquette can be, and are, ignored. So, group play quickly becomes toxic and is generally rejected by most players.

The other line of reasoning that I find objectionable in this article is contained in this line, "Is is (sic) the dopamine hit we get from being able to play the hero without actually ever doing anything heroic?" The author is implying that group endeavors are heroic, which they're not. Running into a burning school bus and pulling kids out is heroic, completing a raid is not.

Cazriel · July 2018

It really raises the question of whether developers spend any time in random groups in real life to experience how people actually behave when they are thrown together with only a single common interest among them. In other words, do developers actually study the way strangers interact when they are tasked with an objective and will spend time in each other's company until that objective is achieved?

The first activity of any random group is to choose a leader. Usually the leader chooses him/herself and the others go along. This is a common dynamic in random groups. There's no show of hands, it's all done by social interaction that appears to be completely unrelated and usually is settled out within the first hour or two of everyone being together. Anyone who has ever done a group vacation by him/herself has seen this, whether they recognized this occurring or not.

Why then do LFG tools not have an indicator for "group leader"? The person in charge of the group who sets the tone and determines the order of goals? In the old days, the group leader was the person who did all the work to put the group together, spammed chat and sent the invitations, decided whether more DPS or heals was best, etc. Nowadays, there isn't one. (And, no, being in the first position with a star by your name does not make you 'group leader'.) No one makes decisions. Nothing is communicated. Why has the role of Group Leader fallen by the wayside when it such a key component of successful groups?

LFG tools may be necessary, but they do completely short circuit the actual dynamic of groups and make grouping, except for goal accomplishment, an unsatisfactory experience.

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