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Level Progression - Is Zone/Character Scaling the Future?
Eronakis
Member UncommonPosts: 2,249
*This thread is specifically about Vertical Level Progression*
So far, I have played two MMORPG's that have used two different ways for scaling for level progression.
Guild Wars 2 - Your character scales to the zone you're in. Example - If you're level 80, and you venture into Kessex Hills, your character level scales to level 15-25 depending on the area of zone.
World of Warcraft - The NPC scales to your level. Legion did this, where you can choose any zone to level in and will continue with BFA.
I am on the fence for Zone/Character scaling for level progression. I can see the merits but yet does it devalue the sense of progression?
As an mmo vet, who started with Everquest in 2001, more time spent on game meant a faster progression rate even with the slow leveling. If I were a level 50 Wizard and I had a friend who wanted to play Everquest, I would have to make a hard decision to make an alt if I was dedicated to my main.
The traditional level progression system, where each zone had a specific level range can hurt new players from easily being integrated into a game. Especially if the leveling is moderate to slow.
The new scaling system for level progression is an interesting one because it does benefit new players to help them integrate into the game a lot easier. Friends would be more apt to play the MMORPG you're playing if they can transition into it easier. From a business standpoint to accumulate new players, the scaling system we are seeing now makes sense. Here are some questions I'd like the thread to discuss.
Is Character/Zone Scaling for Level Progression the formula for MMORPG's moving forward? Should it be?
Does Character/Zone Scaling for Level Progression devalue the essence of leveling?
Do you find Character/Zone Scaling to be fun or make the leveling process more boring?
And I have attached a poll, so please discuss why you voted the way you did.
Let me expand on the last option here...
Compromise - Tiered Scaling: Tiered Scaling. T1 = 1-20, T2 = 21-40, T3 = 41-60 Ect.
I believe this is what Blizzard did for leveling your character for Vanilla and the rest of the expansions.
Essentially, the Compromise is NPC will scale within a certain tier for a bundle of zones. The player has a choice of what zones they want to level in that tier. Then after reaching threshold for the next tier, the player can choose the next bundle of zones they'd like to level in. This still utilizes the scaling system, but still also gives a sense of progression.
So far, I have played two MMORPG's that have used two different ways for scaling for level progression.
Guild Wars 2 - Your character scales to the zone you're in. Example - If you're level 80, and you venture into Kessex Hills, your character level scales to level 15-25 depending on the area of zone.
World of Warcraft - The NPC scales to your level. Legion did this, where you can choose any zone to level in and will continue with BFA.
I am on the fence for Zone/Character scaling for level progression. I can see the merits but yet does it devalue the sense of progression?
As an mmo vet, who started with Everquest in 2001, more time spent on game meant a faster progression rate even with the slow leveling. If I were a level 50 Wizard and I had a friend who wanted to play Everquest, I would have to make a hard decision to make an alt if I was dedicated to my main.
The traditional level progression system, where each zone had a specific level range can hurt new players from easily being integrated into a game. Especially if the leveling is moderate to slow.
The new scaling system for level progression is an interesting one because it does benefit new players to help them integrate into the game a lot easier. Friends would be more apt to play the MMORPG you're playing if they can transition into it easier. From a business standpoint to accumulate new players, the scaling system we are seeing now makes sense. Here are some questions I'd like the thread to discuss.
Is Character/Zone Scaling for Level Progression the formula for MMORPG's moving forward? Should it be?
Does Character/Zone Scaling for Level Progression devalue the essence of leveling?
Do you find Character/Zone Scaling to be fun or make the leveling process more boring?
And I have attached a poll, so please discuss why you voted the way you did.
Let me expand on the last option here...
Compromise - Tiered Scaling: Tiered Scaling. T1 = 1-20, T2 = 21-40, T3 = 41-60 Ect.
I believe this is what Blizzard did for leveling your character for Vanilla and the rest of the expansions.
Essentially, the Compromise is NPC will scale within a certain tier for a bundle of zones. The player has a choice of what zones they want to level in that tier. Then after reaching threshold for the next tier, the player can choose the next bundle of zones they'd like to level in. This still utilizes the scaling system, but still also gives a sense of progression.
Level Progression
- Which Level Progression System Do You Prefer?46 votes
- Traditional - No Character or Zone Scaling82.61%
- Character Scaling Only - Like WoW2.17%
- Level Scaling Only - Like Gw213.04%
- Compromise - Tiered Scaling. T1 = 1-20, T2 = 21-40, T3 = 41-60 Ect.2.17%
Comments
When you do level-scaling, you are basically making the levels altogether pointless. So, why even have them?
This is like one of those old jokes/proverbs about cutting a foot off one end of a blanket and sewing it on the other end to make it longer.
The only thing it accomplishes is to keep you out of harder zones and slow down exploration. Frankly, you don't need levels to make enemies in a certain area to be more difficult to fight, or for the environment to kill you in an area for which you aren't prepared.
I'm a big believer in having experience counts/gains and such, but only as a more of a statistic to *gasp* show how much experience you've gained.
Obviously, I think more skill-based systems are the way to go
First of all why not something else.
Level scaling is really bad if you lose any skills with it.
If not I see no difference to character scaling as I have said it many times 100hp > 10 damage, or 10000 > 1000 damage, where is the difference.
I would rather see mixed zones, where there are low and high level mobs mixed, like the roaming world boss, or caves with higher lvl mobs (with different wings where the lvl is different. Or the mobs get higher level when going deeper into it)
I also loved it when you had to cross zones with higher lvl mobs to get somewhere you need to go (e.g. some trainers in Meridian)
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
I'm not one to stroke it to my character though, so....*shrug*
First place would be EQ's method of having very wide progression tiers and second would be Eve's method, where mechanics that young players have, old players still need.
However, as a primarily solo player I've had little experience with needing this gap mitigated.
Still, I get that one-shotting things give people a hard-on.
I voted for the "old way" in the poll. It's certainly not perfect, but it "made sense" that the wolf that killed me when I started was easily dealt with later on in my career.
Also, why does level/zone scaling only work one way (higher stripped to lower)? The OP "complained" about the "friend's new character" and having to roll up a new one with them. Zone/level scaling still made your main character leave what they're doing to adventure with the lower level buddy. The new character does not go adventuring in the zone of the old player, does it? City of Heroes is the only game I know that went either way with its mentor/sidekick system. Is this still true, or does this go both ways now?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The other one that I thought worked well is in ffxiv. Doing the roulette instance for lower level instances, your level became the max for it. Lost most of your skills, but still felt a bit stronger and it helped lowbies have people to run an instance.
Overall though, I don't want zones to raise to my level or mine lower to their level. I don't want to be attacked running through a starter area because my level has been normalized. I also lose the sense of progression if I keep getting stronger, but everything keeps scaling to me. I don't want that bear cub to be just as vicious at level 3 and then at level 50, lol. Even the opposite, that raging dragon just as hard at 5 as 50. I know there is some variance even with the scaling, but it still annoys me.
But then again, judging the rules of a longterm gameplay focussed magical game world by real life logic also doesn't make much sense.
It's a matter of taste.
Some people will not like it due to (understandable) immersion issues, others will say "I hurl fireballs from my hands.. so why not also accept magically becoming much more powerful through training over long periods?" and some others will not care about immersion in the first place and just want good gameplay.
I don't think there is a general right or wrong here, just target audiences, varied tastes and different game design approaches.
Especially if it was in a "magical" world where weight had no meaning, (aka it could swim over water despite its heavy armor) and required no fuel.)
The mismatch in power is on that sort of scale.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Apart from that I have to say I am rather ambivalent to scaling. It solves some problems while causing others. The realism argument is of no interest to me, but I see how it can concern others. I am not playing ARMA here, so I put my rationality on hold and go with the flow.
Still a vertical scaling system, but is capped across the various activites, meaning in a relatively short time a new player can be very close in "power" to a vet of many years in a particular ship type or craft such as mining.
This makes every single system, from the first one new players start in to the furthest one in null sec or most dangerous worm hole equally viable to all players.
It also permits me to experience almost unlimited progression (the primary pillar for me in any game) yet despite my 150M plus skill points my characters have from 8 years of training still very killable by a single player of 3 months in the right circumstance.
I know of no other modern MMOs where this is possible, except perhaps ESO, maybe?
There is still room for some gated content that new players cannot join (incursion running can't be done in a frigate) and while it's not perfect, it is the sort of system I'd love to try in a modern fantasy game setting.
The only game with scaling that I might be able to tolerate is likely ESO, because it upscales everyone so they can wander where they will, so I've read.
Unfortunately there are other mechanics still in place in ESO I loathed when a I tried it back at launch so I can't really give it another go.
I have played games such as GW2 and COH and dislike both the downscaling and mentoring systems.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is where "monster types" come into play. An orc "named the same" (pawn, centurion, whatever) would make all the sense in the world to me in your example. If an Orc Centurian smeared my face off at level 1 and then an Orc Legionaire was one-shot by me at level 40, my brows would raise questioningly.
But if I revisit a "starter or lower level zone" and magically lose all my experience, also known as levels, that makes no sense to me. If levels don't matter, or can be negated so easily, why even bother having them?
For me, leveling has not been very well implemented yet. From what I heard about UO, that skill based system sounded wonderful to me. Otherwise, leveling seems to be some kind abstract thing in a game's world and skills never used before suddenly get better.
But in the end, I like the "feeling of progression" leveling gives. Being able to go back and one-shot that Orc that killed me early on is satisfying to me and gives that feeling of character progress.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I just recently read this article and I think it applies to the thread. The author makes good points. I think the author might be pro-scaling. I think a bad game design decision is to have the "real" more intriguing content begin at end game. This should be a process that slowly transitions the player as they level to be prepared for in game content.
https://www.pcgamer.com/getting-my-friends-into-world-of-warcraft-is-a-nightmare/
Swtor failed imo at scaling. You are rediculously overpowered for the area your working on generally before you've done a third of the content. It makes a difference when I'm crafting my gear and can wear gear that is 30 levels higher than the area but may not be able to safely get the materials for the gear. Annoying as hell.