kickstarters are a donation to an idear so cant see refunds ever being a thing unless you accidently bought in a few days before trying to refund.
This is no longer a kickstarter though, the period for pledging to the kickstarter ended in 2012. Since then it has been stretch goals (finished many years ago), pre-purchases and pre-orders through their private website.
If vat is added, then it's not a donation, it is a purchase, as donations are either exempt or zero rated afaik, depends where you live when you made the purchase/donation I guess.
Yep. It's a digital purchase. Funnily enough the CIG representative argued that it is a donation much like a person would give to a church. So for 30 days it is a purchase as they have to give your money back if not satisfied, after 30 days they consider it a donation.
Hmm, but CIG says otherwise, they made it very clear that the moment I paid them it was a donation and refunds weren't being accepted, no 30 days anything. Every new buyer gets this message I assume, not just me. Their stance is clear on the matter, legally grey or not.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Hmm, but CIG says otherwise, they made it very clear that the moment I paid them it was a donation and refunds weren't being accepted, no 30 days anything. Every new buyer gets this message I assume, not just me. Their stance is clear on the matter, legally grey or not.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If they are claiming its a donation they are being dishonest because when you give them money you are expecting to receive goods in return, either the game, access to the game, a ship, some merchandise or whatever. It most certainly is not a donation. If they are saying no refunds then that is at odds to their FAQ and their active policy as well as what was stated when they met with the BBB.
An excerpt from their meeting with the BBB (Feb 2018)
CIG said. “It’s worth noting that we have always had a 30 day ‘no questions asked’ refund policy which allows everybody to check out the game and its status without any risk.
Ahhh, and here is a screenshot of the message. Interestingly enough they call it a pledge and not a donation, could there be a legal difference? But, as you can see, all pledges are final and no refunds are given, at all.
kickstarters are a donation to an idear so cant see refunds ever being a thing unless you accidently bought in a few days before trying to refund.
This is no longer a kickstarter though, the period for pledging to the kickstarter ended in 2012. Since then it has been stretch goals (finished many years ago), pre-purchases and pre-orders through their private website.
If vat is added, then it's not a donation, it is a purchase, as donations are either exempt or zero rated afaik, depends where you live when you made the purchase/donation I guess.
Yep. It's a digital purchase. Funnily enough the CIG representative argued that it is a donation much like a person would give to a church. So for 30 days it is a purchase as they have to give your money back if not satisfied, after 30 days they consider it a donation.
Hmm, but CIG says otherwise, they made it very clear that the moment I paid them it was a donation and refunds weren't being accepted, no 30 days anything. Every new buyer gets this message I assume, not just me. Their stance is clear on the matter, legally grey or not.
Tax officials do not accept a transaction where both parties donate something to each other. If such transactions were accepted, then we'd see massive tax evasion by people donating money to businesses and businesses donation their stuff in exchange.
CIG may call it a donation all they want, but as long as they give you the game, or virtual goods, or something such in exchange tax officials do not accept it and they must pay VAT.
kickstarters are a donation to an idear so cant see refunds ever being a thing unless you accidently bought in a few days before trying to refund.
This is no longer a kickstarter though, the period for pledging to the kickstarter ended in 2012. Since then it has been stretch goals (finished many years ago), pre-purchases and pre-orders through their private website.
If vat is added, then it's not a donation, it is a purchase, as donations are either exempt or zero rated afaik, depends where you live when you made the purchase/donation I guess.
Yep. It's a digital purchase. Funnily enough the CIG representative argued that it is a donation much like a person would give to a church. So for 30 days it is a purchase as they have to give your money back if not satisfied, after 30 days they consider it a donation.
Hmm, but CIG says otherwise, they made it very clear that the moment I paid them it was a donation and refunds weren't being accepted, no 30 days anything. Every new buyer gets this message I assume, not just me. Their stance is clear on the matter, legally grey or not.
Tax officials do not accept a transaction where both parties donate something to each other. If such transactions were accepted, then we'd see massive tax evasion by people donating money to businesses and businesses donation their stuff in exchange.
CIG may call it a donation all they want, but as long as they give you the game, or virtual goods, or something such in exchange tax officials do not accept it and they must pay VAT.
Thats interesting. So the whole "you are pledging" is just wordsmithing so they have the advantage of a donation (no legal arguments for refunds) while in reality it is just a purchase. Well, that is dodgy to say the least...
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Post edited by lahnmir on
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Thats interesting. So the whole "you are pledging" is just wordsmithing so they have the advantage of a donation (no legal arguments for refunds) while in reality it is just a purchase. Well, that is dodgy to say the least...
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Then you have to call the entirety of Kickstarter "dodgy", because well they do not write it "you are pre-ordering a game", they say you are PLEDGING for a game.
(and yes you pay VAT on kickstarter too, hell even on Patreon, you have to be a legal charitable organization to escape VAT. or gits falling on personal income on the US that obviously only covers individuals)
The problems of crowdfund start the moment people understand it as a "Pre-Order Program", dismiss assuming any risks and want guarantees.
kickstarters are a donation to an idear so cant see refunds ever being a thing unless you accidently bought in a few days before trying to refund.
This is no longer a kickstarter though, the period for pledging to the kickstarter ended in 2012. Since then it has been stretch goals (finished many years ago), pre-purchases and pre-orders through their private website.
If vat is added, then it's not a donation, it is a purchase, as donations are either exempt or zero rated afaik, depends where you live when you made the purchase/donation I guess.
Yep. It's a digital purchase. Funnily enough the CIG representative argued that it is a donation much like a person would give to a church. So for 30 days it is a purchase as they have to give your money back if not satisfied, after 30 days they consider it a donation.
It's a non refundable purchase as direct consideration is given for a specific amount, and CIG is not a registered non profit organization.
But any money spent should be considered a donation towards seeing the game being delivered and its clear by now one should have no expectations toward specific features or timeframes for final delivery. (The latter being the more vexing issue in my book)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I "bought" SC two weeks ago and got a huge warning telling me since this was a donation there were absolutely no refunds given. They're pretty clear about that to new customers.
Why would VAT apply to a donation though? Have your cake AND eat it CIG? Tsk tsk. Alpha is decent, definitely not bad, definitely not mind blowing, the graphics and scale of it all is though.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Disappointing to hear you crossed over to the dark side, but at least I'm sure you won't be one of those who complain even if this game (games?) take another 5 years to launch.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Anyone who backed Star Citizen, which has received an insane amount of crowdfunding,
can no longer ask to be refunded by developer Cloud Imperium Games
(CIG). Although standard means of asking for refunds were removed
through the Star Citizen’s June 6, 2016 Terms of Service (TOS) update,
CIG stopped issuing them completely in December 2017.
Star Citizen Backer Loses in Small Claims Court to RSI
A backer of Star Citizen
who sought to see their $4500 refunded after losing faith in the
project has officially lost their case. The RSI small claims lawsuit was
tossed out by the presiding judge, moving the matter to arbitration in
spite of the fact that the backer in question offered their fiscal
support before the company changed their terms of service.
A lot of big companies are making agreements that state they can't be sued but must have the matter settled by arbitration. I saw a video on arbitration in which an arbitrator said that if you don't side with the business, they tend to not hire you for further work.
Supreme Court's arbitration ruling is another blow to consumer rights
The
U.S. Supreme Court made clear this week that, regardless of what the
Constitution says about a consumer's right to sue, businesses are
absolutely entitled to block people from banding together and taking a
dispute to court.
It was the court's latest ruling in
favor of arbitration, rather than class-action lawsuits, as a preferred
method for resolving issues between companies and their customers —
which is exactly how the business world wants it.
Mandatory
arbitration overwhelmingly favors business interests, consumer
advocates say, and prevents people from closing ranks to challenge
unfair fees and conditions.
Want to make CIG hurt. Have thousands of backers who want out of the project start filing cases for arbritration and have watch as CIG has to pay for each and every case. Of course knowing the zealots they would probably spite donate in order to cover court costs.
You assume there actually is "thousands" of backers who want out. According to CIG the number is quite low as a % of the total at least in their most recent court filing.
My guess is most backers are satisfied the amount of money they have donated, invested or spent is well within their personal budget and risk levels.
They are also mostly satisfied with the progress so far and willing to see the saga through to its end.
Even today they get new backers evidenced in this very thread who clearly didn't do so out of spite, even if I question their wisdom in doing so "in spite of everything."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I wouldn't call that clear, if anything it's contradictory to what else they say and practice Sadly CIG have always been like this, it's probably half the reason no-one knows what the hell is going on.
But any money spent should be considered a donation towards seeing the game being delivered and its clear by now one should have no expectations toward specific features or timeframes for final delivery. (The latter being the more vexing issue in my book)
This is something I was thinking about earlier, in my opinion there's a point where that argument fails because the funding has reached almost 9x its original target ($23 million), it has reached 3x its revised target ($65 million), it has gone well past the point where they said finishing Sq42 would bankroll the MMO. If anyone was aware of that they would believe CIG have more than enough to finish the game, they have been reassured by the CEO that they have more than enough and so low expectations shouldn't even enter the conversation.
This is something I was thinking about earlier, in my opinion there's a point where that argument fails because the funding has gone almost 9x its original target ($23 million), it has gone 3x its revised target ($65 million), it has gone well past the point where they said finishing Sq42 would bankroll the MMO. If anyone was aware of that they would believe CIG have more than enough to finish the game, they have been reassured by the CEO that they have more than enough and so low expectations should even enter the conversation.
The reality however seems to be quite different.
The reality that they simply scaled their costs the more money they have gotten, so counters the impact it would have had if they haven't kept scaling the company, aka continuously increasing costs. When that is added up with the development delays it obviously forces the budget to continue to stretch to cope with it.
its what is called a conditional contract(a pledge is a form of this) where the "backer" is giving money and is agreeing to be repaid in merchandise once the conditions of the contract are met. you aren't entitled to a refund because under a conditional contract obligations are suspended until the contract's terms have been met. The trap is these developers never stipulate a timeframe of delivery(only suggest possible target dates with no guarantee) as a condition....meaning they have until the heat death of the universe to fulfill the contract conditions. The only way around it is to prove that they never intended to fulfill the terms of the contract from the beginning(for example child asking for a loan from parents for college tuition.. then never applying and using the money to buy a car.) that's how it works under US law anyway....probably varies country to country beyond that.
Laws vary by country; sometimes even by part of a country e.g. state.
The EU position is pretty clear cut - probably! The issue was extensively discussed in an earlier thread. Kickstarter "pledge" almost certainly a "purchase" on which VAT will then be paid.
In the US - suggestions that it is purchase but get some lawyers involved and who knows! If it comes to it what I would call the "basic US stance" is deny any responsibility etc. and then fight it out in court if necessary. Not just the US either - hence the reason you have ToSs despite the fact that local law takes precedent meaning that in many places they are essentially meaningless.
Other countries Japan, Korea etc. ?
As a result it is very difficult - in a thread like this - to talk in absolutes. Could well be why the wording in the pledge is as it is.
kickstarters are a donation to an idear so cant see refunds ever being a thing unless you accidently bought in a few days before trying to refund.
This is no longer a kickstarter though, the period for pledging to the kickstarter ended in 2012. Since then it has been stretch goals (finished many years ago), pre-purchases and pre-orders through their private website.
If vat is added, then it's not a donation, it is a purchase, as donations are either exempt or zero rated afaik, depends where you live when you made the purchase/donation I guess.
Yep. It's a digital purchase. Funnily enough the CIG representative argued that it is a donation much like a person would give to a church. So for 30 days it is a purchase as they have to give your money back if not satisfied, after 30 days they consider it a donation.
Hmm, but CIG says otherwise, they made it very clear that the moment I paid them it was a donation and refunds weren't being accepted, no 30 days anything. Every new buyer gets this message I assume, not just me. Their stance is clear on the matter, legally grey or not.
Tax officials do not accept a transaction where both parties donate something to each other. If such transactions were accepted, then we'd see massive tax evasion by people donating money to businesses and businesses donation their stuff in exchange.
CIG may call it a donation all they want, but as long as they give you the game, or virtual goods, or something such in exchange tax officials do not accept it and they must pay VAT.
Yeah but once the game launches Chris Roberts is moving to Terra, "The thing that Terra has, besides being bigger and nicer than Earth..." they ain't taxing him there.
EU ... No definite ruling on crowdfunding (including Kickstarter) yet.
And crowdfunded games are the very least of the lawmakers worries. They are struggling with crowdfunded "banks" and "investment" schemes, Crowdfunded tax evasion schemes etc.
And even IF there will be an EU law covering that issue, every EU member state is free to modify it to be stricter than the basic EU law (but NEVER less strict than that).
My guess is most backers are satisfied the amount of money they have donated, invested or spent is well within their personal budget and risk levels.
They are also mostly satisfied with the progress so far and willing to see the saga through to its end.
I tend to doubt this, honestly.
I backed SC eons ago and frankly long ago came to the conclusion that I won't ever get anything meaningful for my money. Between laughable levels of feature creep, insane levels of P2W, and Squadron 42 becoming an afterthought forever six months from release, the whole sad joke isn't even worth keeping up with. If it wasn't for the eternal war being waged here by a no-doubt underpaid lagamorph and an overly optimistic pork chop, I would have long ago gladly forgotten about the whole mess.
Far from being mostly satisfied, I suspect most didn't put enough money into it to want to fight for a refund -- something I'm sure Roberts counted on -- and have long since moved on and washed their hands of the whole pathetic mess.
I "bought" SC two weeks ago and got a huge warning telling me since this was a donation there were absolutely no refunds given. They're pretty clear about that to new customers.
Why would VAT apply to a donation though? Have your cake AND eat it CIG? Tsk tsk. Alpha is decent, definitely not bad, definitely not mind blowing, the graphics and scale of it all is though.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Disappointing to hear you crossed over to the dark side, but at least I'm sure you won't be one of those who complain even if this game (games?) take another 5 years to launch.
Right?
I couldn't care less, I went completely Meta and decided to donate not because of SC: The game but because of SC: The Game: The Project and Everything Surrounding It.
So far I am not too disappointed, or excited for that matter. You sure as hell won't hear me whine, neither will I praise it into the high heavens. Its ambitious and not delivering all of it quite yet, just like Chris Roberts himself I guess.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I couldn't care less, I went completely Meta and decided to donate not because of SC: The game but because of SC: The Game: The Project and Everything Surrounding It.
So far I am not too disappointed, or excited for that matter. You sure as hell won't hear me whine, neither will I praise it into the high heavens. Its ambitious and not delivering all of it quite yet, just like Chris Roberts himself I guess.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
You are part of the very small minority of posters here who are even capable to understand that, pledging for SC: The Game vs SC: Everything else.
If for someone, the game that SC already is shaping up and its direction justifies them backing the project, then that's all that matters, this is why the haters/full-time naysayers get so triggered like anyone who backs SC has to somehow be or delusional or blind or whatever, they will never get it...
The level of involvement is different per person, but the more the game develops the more what is currently is will be the determining factor, before as there was literally nothing there yet it was the complete opposite reality.
Anyone who backed Star Citizen, which has received an insane amount of crowdfunding,
can no longer ask to be refunded by developer Cloud Imperium Games
(CIG). Although standard means of asking for refunds were removed
through the Star Citizen’s June 6, 2016 Terms of Service (TOS) update,
CIG stopped issuing them completely in December 2017.
Star Citizen Backer Loses in Small Claims Court to RSI
A backer of Star Citizen
who sought to see their $4500 refunded after losing faith in the
project has officially lost their case. The RSI small claims lawsuit was
tossed out by the presiding judge, moving the matter to arbitration in
spite of the fact that the backer in question offered their fiscal
support before the company changed their terms of service.
A lot of big companies are making agreements that state they can't be sued but must have the matter settled by arbitration. I saw a video on arbitration in which an arbitrator said that if you don't side with the business, they tend to not hire you for further work.
Supreme Court's arbitration ruling is another blow to consumer rights
The
U.S. Supreme Court made clear this week that, regardless of what the
Constitution says about a consumer's right to sue, businesses are
absolutely entitled to block people from banding together and taking a
dispute to court.
It was the court's latest ruling in
favor of arbitration, rather than class-action lawsuits, as a preferred
method for resolving issues between companies and their customers —
which is exactly how the business world wants it.
Mandatory
arbitration overwhelmingly favors business interests, consumer
advocates say, and prevents people from closing ranks to challenge
unfair fees and conditions.
Want to make CIG hurt. Have thousands of backers who want out of the project start filing cases for arbritration and have watch as CIG has to pay for each and every case. Of course knowing the zealots they would probably spite donate in order to cover court costs.
You assume there actually is "thousands" of backers who want out. According to CIG the number is quite low as a % of the total at least in their most recent court filing.
My guess is most backers are satisfied the amount of money they have donated, invested or spent is well within their personal budget and risk levels.
They are also mostly satisfied with the progress so far and willing to see the saga through to its end.
Even today they get new backers evidenced in this very thread who clearly didn't do so out of spite, even if I question their wisdom in doing so "in spite of everything."
You also assume CIG is telling the truth about how many people want out. I’m sure we can completely trust their word since they have never lied about anything including when patches are coming, when modules are coming, LTI never coming back, release dates, and a slew of other crap right?
Laws vary by country; sometimes even by part of a country e.g. state.
The EU position is pretty clear cut - probably! The issue was extensively discussed in an earlier thread. Kickstarter "pledge" almost certainly a "purchase" on which VAT will then be paid.
In the US - suggestions that it is purchase but get some lawyers involved and who knows! If it comes to it what I would call the "basic US stance" is deny any responsibility etc. and then fight it out in court if necessary. Not just the US either - hence the reason you have ToSs despite the fact that local law takes precedent meaning that in many places they are essentially meaningless.
Other countries Japan, Korea etc. ?
As a result it is very difficult - in a thread like this - to talk in absolutes. Could well be why the wording in the pledge is as it is.
Germany just had a court ruling that retailers can’t sell anything that says coming soon or available soon, there needs to be an actual release date. A step in the right direction for consumer rights.
I wonder if that means the CIG website needs to be blocked from Germany now because they need to have a set release date or perhaps run afoul of German authorities?
You also assume CIG is telling the truth about how many people want out. I’m sure we can completely trust their word since they have never lied about anything including when patches are coming, when modules are coming, LTI never coming back, release dates, and a slew of other crap right?
It doesn't even require only consider what they say, what it is visible shows at most few hundreds of people stalled in the process, so claiming thousands has no factual or visible standing to make a claim on (even if we claim the visible ones are just 30% of the total). Another standard thing often ignored is that most refunds will by norm be under the 30 day period they grant as it is usual on games people pretty much try and withdraw if they don't like it, or can't run it, etc...
Germany just had a court ruling that retailers can’t sell anything that says coming soon or available soon, there needs to be an actual release date. A step in the right direction for consumer rights.
I wonder if that means the CIG website needs to be blocked from Germany now because they need to have a set release date or perhaps run afoul of German authorities?
This is irrelevant for SC; on the reality of crowdfunding such things can't be enforced, crowdfunding is not a pre-order, on the very core reality of a kickstarter they always have to give one superficial estimate, most times is only a year or a range of years, and if they decide that also applies to crowdfunding, all devs will do is give dates and delay them at will, not that they don't already do that anyway... Crowdfunding should not be treated as a pre-order platform and it needs its own regulation.
You also assume CIG is telling the truth about how many people want out. I’m sure we can completely trust their word since they have never lied about anything including when patches are coming, when modules are coming, LTI never coming back, release dates, and a slew of other crap right?
It doesn't even require only consider what they say, what it is visible shows at most few hundreds of people stalled in the process, so claiming thousands has no factual or visible standing to make a claim on (even if we claim the visible ones are just 30% of the total). Another standard thing often ignored is that most refunds will by norm be under the 30 day period they grant as it is usual on games people pretty much try and withdraw if they don't like it, or can't run it, etc...
Germany just had a court ruling that retailers can’t sell anything that says coming soon or available soon, there needs to be an actual release date. A step in the right direction for consumer rights.
I wonder if that means the CIG website needs to be blocked from Germany now because they need to have a set release date or perhaps run afoul of German authorities?
This is irrelevant for SC; on the reality of crowdfunding such things can't be enforced, crowdfunding is not a pre-order, on the very core reality of a kickstarter they always have to give one superficial estimate, most times is only a year or a range of years, and if they decide that also applies to crowdfunding, all devs will do is give dates and delay them at will, not that they don't already do that anyway... Crowdfunding should not be treated as a pre-order platform and it needs its own regulation.
1) I never claimed thousands and good luck showing me proof that I’m wrong just like I couldn’t show you proof you’re wrong. You did miss the entire point though
2) I do agree kickstarters and crowdfunding need regulations because as it stands any idiot (just look at Chris) can promise anything and then just claim delay after delay and not have to deliver a product while denying people refunds. This isn’t crowdfunding anymore though. He’s selling shit through their website so this is now either a sale or at best a pre order. Trying to still claim it’s crowdfunding is just trying to avoid the laws that come along with pre orders or sales. And yes I don’t think SC is the only party guilty of this.
Comments
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
If they are saying no refunds then that is at odds to their FAQ and their active policy as well as what was stated when they met with the BBB.
An excerpt from their meeting with the BBB (Feb 2018)
CIG said. “It’s worth noting that we have always had a 30 day ‘no questions asked’ refund policy which allows everybody to check out the game and its status without any risk.
https://www.polygon.com/2018/2/12/16997396/star-citizen-better-business-bureau-terms-of-service-changes
Seems pretty clear to me.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
CIG may call it a donation all they want, but as long as they give you the game, or virtual goods, or something such in exchange tax officials do not accept it and they must pay VAT.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
(and yes you pay VAT on kickstarter too, hell even on Patreon, you have to be a legal charitable organization to escape VAT. or gits falling on personal income on the US that obviously only covers individuals)
The problems of crowdfund start the moment people understand it as a "Pre-Order Program", dismiss assuming any risks and want guarantees.
But any money spent should be considered a donation towards seeing the game being delivered and its clear by now one should have no expectations toward specific features or timeframes for final delivery. (The latter being the more vexing issue in my book)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Right?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My guess is most backers are satisfied the amount of money they have donated, invested or spent is well within their personal budget and risk levels.
They are also mostly satisfied with the progress so far and willing to see the saga through to its end.
Even today they get new backers evidenced in this very thread who clearly didn't do so out of spite, even if I question their wisdom in doing so "in spite of everything."
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sadly CIG have always been like this, it's probably half the reason no-one knows what the hell is going on.
This is something I was thinking about earlier, in my opinion there's a point where that argument fails because the funding has reached almost 9x its original target ($23 million), it has reached 3x its revised target ($65 million), it has gone well past the point where they said finishing Sq42 would bankroll the MMO. If anyone was aware of that they would believe CIG have more than enough to finish the game, they have been reassured by the CEO that they have more than enough and so low expectations shouldn't even enter the conversation.
The reality however seems to be quite different.
The reality that they simply scaled their costs the more money they have gotten, so counters the impact it would have had if they haven't kept scaling the company, aka continuously increasing costs. When that is added up with the development delays it obviously forces the budget to continue to stretch to cope with it.
its what is called a conditional contract(a pledge is a form of this) where the "backer" is giving money and is agreeing to be repaid in merchandise once the conditions of the contract are met. you aren't entitled to a refund because under a conditional contract obligations are suspended until the contract's terms have been met.
The trap is these developers never stipulate a timeframe of delivery(only suggest possible target dates with no guarantee) as a condition....meaning they have until the heat death of the universe to fulfill the contract conditions. The only way around it is to prove that they never intended to fulfill the terms of the contract from the beginning(for example child asking for a loan from parents for college tuition.. then never applying and using the money to buy a car.)
that's how it works under US law anyway....probably varies country to country beyond that.
The EU position is pretty clear cut - probably! The issue was extensively discussed in an earlier thread. Kickstarter "pledge" almost certainly a "purchase" on which VAT will then be paid.
In the US - suggestions that it is purchase but get some lawyers involved and who knows! If it comes to it what I would call the "basic US stance" is deny any responsibility etc. and then fight it out in court if necessary. Not just the US either - hence the reason you have ToSs despite the fact that local law takes precedent meaning that in many places they are essentially meaningless.
Other countries Japan, Korea etc. ?
As a result it is very difficult - in a thread like this - to talk in absolutes. Could well be why the wording in the pledge is as it is.
And crowdfunded games are the very least of the lawmakers worries. They are struggling with crowdfunded "banks" and "investment" schemes, Crowdfunded tax evasion schemes etc.
And even IF there will be an EU law covering that issue, every EU member state is free to modify it to be stricter than the basic EU law (but NEVER less strict than that).
Have fun
So far I am not too disappointed, or excited for that matter. You sure as hell won't hear me whine, neither will I praise it into the high heavens. Its ambitious and not delivering all of it quite yet, just like Chris Roberts himself I guess.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
You are part of the very small minority of posters here who are even capable to understand that, pledging for SC: The Game vs SC: Everything else.
If for someone, the game that SC already is shaping up and its direction justifies them backing the project, then that's all that matters, this is why the haters/full-time naysayers get so triggered like anyone who backs SC has to somehow be or delusional or blind or whatever, they will never get it...
The level of involvement is different per person, but the more the game develops the more what is currently is will be the determining factor, before as there was literally nothing there yet it was the complete opposite reality.
I wonder if that means the CIG website needs to be blocked from Germany now because they need to have a set release date or perhaps run afoul of German authorities?
This is irrelevant for SC; on the reality of crowdfunding such things can't be enforced, crowdfunding is not a pre-order, on the very core reality of a kickstarter they always have to give one superficial estimate, most times is only a year or a range of years, and if they decide that also applies to crowdfunding, all devs will do is give dates and delay them at will, not that they don't already do that anyway... Crowdfunding should not be treated as a pre-order platform and it needs its own regulation.
2) I do agree kickstarters and crowdfunding need regulations because as it stands any idiot (just look at Chris) can promise anything and then just claim delay after delay and not have to deliver a product while denying people refunds.
This isn’t crowdfunding anymore though. He’s selling shit through their website so this is now either a sale or at best a pre order. Trying to still claim it’s crowdfunding is just trying to avoid the laws that come along with pre orders or sales. And yes I don’t think SC is the only party guilty of this.
Too bad that the international gaming press and the Guiness Book of Records disagree with your personal assessment.
Have fun