Crafting and trading are better community anchors...

Vermillion_Raventhal · August 2018

than combat. This is not say guilds based on combat aren't not great. They just generally aren't not communal. They are more exclusive clubs.

Forced group combat leads to waiting to complete content. If you have vertical progression you will need NPC helpers to help with the low levels in mature games or group finder. Both kind of defeat the purpose of grouping. You are also dependent on the whims of a group leaders which can suck.

Interdependency with other players in trade and crafting usually works. Players interested in trading/crafting outside of servicing themselves use other players(ha ha). Usually these aren't forced group actions either just one on one with players. No need to form a group to sell.

SWG was a game like this with a good community. There wasn't forced grouped combat as far as I remember. Not say group combat is bad or should be removed. Just think games like Patheon are forgetting why EQ is one of the only games like that.

FlyByKnight · August 2018

If SWG was so great what made them do the whole NGE deal? I know it's an admitted mistake by most of the developers in hindsight but what was the motivation if SWG was so awesome? Sounds like I missed out big time.

Vermillion_Raventhal · August 2018

FlyByKnight said:

If SWG was so great what made them do the whole NGE deal? I know it's an admitted mistake by most of the developers in hindsight but what was the motivation if SWG was so awesome? Sounds like I missed out big time.

World of Warcraft like most other games at the time. That was a combat change I believe. I could barely play SWG at that time with my computer.

SWG was far from perfect but I believe it was the better path for the genre to take then WoW.

Theocritus · August 2018

I dont remember the last game I played where crafting was any factor whatsoever.

AlBQuirky · August 2018

I agree and the way combat has gone, it's less of a "community builder" than before. Combat linked with limited "playtime" makes combat "en group" fast, fast, and fast.

I realize that most players now use voice chat of some kind to communicate, and I've done that in the past, but it's not like chatting "in the game" for me.

Quizzical · August 2018

Theocritus said:

I dont remember the last game I played where crafting was any factor whatsoever.

But do you remember the last game you played where community was any factor whatsoever?

Theocritus · August 2018

EQ about 15 years ago lol

Vermillion_Raventhal · August 2018

ikcin said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

than combat. This is not say guilds based on combat aren't not great. They just generally aren't not communal. They are more exclusive clubs.

Forced group combat leads to waiting to complete content. If you have vertical progression you will need NPC helpers to help with the low levels in mature games or group finder. Both kind of defeat the purpose of grouping. You are also dependent on the whims of a group leaders which can suck.

Interdependency with other players in trade and crafting usually works. Players interested in trading/crafting outside of servicing themselves use other players(ha ha). Usually these aren't forced group actions either just one on one with players. No need to form a group to sell.

SWG was a game like this with a good community. There wasn't forced grouped combat as far as I remember. Not say group combat is bad or should be removed. Just think games like Patheon are forgetting why EQ is one of the only games like that.

Simply wrong. Crafting and trade may be so solo, that will turn the game into singleplayer - no matter of the combat - BDO.
Both crafting and trade make sense into MMO if they are multiplayer. So when you need other players to buy/sell and you need other players to craft. Also both must be OW. Replace the open world trade with auction house - and the trade is no more multiplayer. Gathering the resources needed for crafting is one of the main reasons for OW PvP. And if the crafting includes specialization and need of cooperation the things become really multiplayer. See, if there is not need to form a group - the game is not multiplayer. The fact you actually can play with other players cannot make any game multiplayer, if there is not need in the gameplay. Your subjective desire for socialization is not the game.

SWG or even UO says otherwise. Given need for crafters and permanent base of operation the those game certainly did have active communities.

Forced combat will always come down to activities unwillingly put on hold to play content. Most players do not want to wait for groups let alone pick up groups. Players will be willing to meet other players or visit stores or player towns to get service. It's on their own terms. Certainly it's less toxic and restrictive than forcred grouping

xidbmi · August 2018

You want crafting check out FFXI one of the best. Just started on a fresh server and tons of group play and player run economy with auction house. You even have your own mog house.

Albatroes · August 2018

xidbmi said:

You want crafting check out FFXI one of the best. Just started on a fresh server and tons of group play and player run economy with auction house. You even have your own mog house.

Although over the decade of FFXI leveling crafting was a huge pain, it was definitely what made it good coupled with it being as important as being able to do endgame content since most endgame content needed a crafter to make certain things to unlock equipment. I think that's what a lot of games are missing, tying the crafting to the endgame content and make each one as important as each other.

Amathe · August 2018

Quizzical said:

Theocritus said:

I dont remember the last game I played where crafting was any factor whatsoever.

But do you remember the last game you played where community was any factor whatsoever?

Everquest
Original SWG - One of the best communities ever. Shout out to the Dance Man, Lowca server
City of Heroes (community was really the whole fun of the game)
Early WoW (especially in open world PvP)
Guild Wars 2

Scot · August 2018

xidbmi said:

You want crafting check out FFXI one of the best. Just started on a fresh server and tons of group play and player run economy with auction house. You even have your own mog house.

Welcome to the Boards!

Scot · August 2018

Now this is a really meaty topic, because I have to say both yes and no. I can remember crafters street in DAOC where the crafters were a tight knit (if you will forgive that one) group. As long as you are buying from other players that's plenty of interaction right there.

But it is often just "looking for 10 XXXX" type conversations and in BDO for example our crafting guy who was always in the top three for money used to get bored and talk on guild chat. He must have been doing tons of transactions but if he wanted to talk then it was guild chat. I think he had a few regular's who he did chew the cud with though.

So crafting as a community anchor yes, as a social activity anchor no. Teamwork creates more communication, I think both are a very good idea. I am not a fan of forced grouping, but we have reached the stage where it needs to be tried.

Theocritus · August 2018

I think two things ruined crafting: Raiding and quests....Raiding was greater end game items and questing youd get better leveling items than you could make most of the time.

blamo2000 · August 2018

I think an interesting question is how crafting and combat has evolved in mmos.

I think people generally accept combat in mmorpgs (if not mmos, than definitely rpgs)) means roles - or function. Tanks and healers aren't the best dps roles, etc.

Crafting has taken the opposite route. Crafting has opened up instead of becoming specialized. In fact, there are whole genres that revolve around crafting exclusively as the main and prominent feature (like survival games or what people call sandbox pvp games).

In a game where anyone can craft anything and everything, and become not just a master of all trades, but a master of all gathering professions, the use of the word "interdependent" is extremely false. In ESO you may be dependent on crafting "guilds" for customers, but not the ability to craft.

I see people bemoan mmos not forcing people to group together for combat enough - but everyone seems to love completely open crafting focused games where you rely on no one else to craft everything.

Vermillion_Raventhal · August 2018

ikcin said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

SWG or even UO says otherwise. Given need for crafters and permanent base of operation the those game certainly did have active communities.

Forced combat will always come down to activities unwillingly put on hold to play content. Most players do not want to wait for groups let alone pick up groups. Players will be willing to meet other players or visit stores or player towns to get service. It's on their own terms. Certainly it's less toxic and restrictive than forcred grouping

You simply take a particular cases and make it general. Indeed players hate to wait - but if players have to wait that means too much space - wrong design or not enough players. The idea - players have to wait so the game should be soloable leads to singleplayer games. MMO must be, not should, must be forced grouping game. Multiplayer means exactly that - to play with other players. And it is not about the PvP, everything must be multiplayer. Some content may be soloable. But now it is the opposite - we have solo games with some multiplayer instances. If you start a MMO game with the idea - it will fail so let make it solo - this is simply wrong.

You will not only need forced grouping but slow leveling for a real community to form around purely combat. I am just not sure it's a viable way to do things anymore. Combat is the main event and players don't like to wait.

Focusing on crafting and even sandbox elements with shops and player housing is a more casual way to have players interact.

Kyleran · August 2018

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

ikcin said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

SWG or even UO says otherwise. Given need for crafters and permanent base of operation the those game certainly did have active communities.

Forced combat will always come down to activities unwillingly put on hold to play content. Most players do not want to wait for groups let alone pick up groups. Players will be willing to meet other players or visit stores or player towns to get service. It's on their own terms. Certainly it's less toxic and restrictive than forcred grouping

You simply take a particular cases and make it general. Indeed players hate to wait - but if players have to wait that means too much space - wrong design or not enough players. The idea - players have to wait so the game should be soloable leads to singleplayer games. MMO must be, not should, must be forced grouping game. Multiplayer means exactly that - to play with other players. And it is not about the PvP, everything must be multiplayer. Some content may be soloable. But now it is the opposite - we have solo games with some multiplayer instances. If you start a MMO game with the idea - it will fail so let make it solo - this is simply wrong.

You will not only need forced grouping but slow leveling for a real community to form around purely combat. I am just not sure it's a viable way to do things anymore. Combat is the main event and players don't like to wait.

Focusing on crafting and even sandbox elements with shops and player housing is a more casual way to have players interact.

Fairly certain he supports multiplayer for everything, even when going to the restroom at home.

Scot · August 2018

ikcin said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

You will not only need forced grouping but slow leveling for a real community to form around purely combat. I am just not sure it's a viable way to do things anymore. Combat is the main event and players don't like to wait.

Focusing on crafting and even sandbox elements with shops and player housing is a more casual way to have players interact.

WTF? Could you imagine multiplayer crafting? Like you can craft one element and need another crafter for other. Or you even play a game, where the crafters cooperate and compete. It is not about combat. Everything in a game could be made solo or multiplayer. Look at BDO - it is an excellent example how the things could be make singleplayer and the PvP does not matter.

Kyleran said:

Fairly certain he supports multiplayer for everything, even when going to the restroom at home.

Well, do not mistake the real life with games. I like my privacy in the life. But in fact to drink with friends is better than to solo in the rest room

I always fast draw against myself in the bathroom mirror, that's where a life spent in PvP gets you.

kjempff · August 2018

@Vermillion_Raventhal I mostly agree. Both Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia in my opinion, have narrowed vision on group play only and forgetting that other community building and social constructs were just as important in oldschool games.
Building for a niche is all fine, but I fear such narrow focus on forced grouping is a dead end. I mean I don't want to give the times and players have changed speech because that is only somewhat true, but in my opinion to capture the oldschool feel in a modern game (which is what so many mmorpg players hope for), you need to work on the playing field of 2018.

With 1000+ days /played in eq since 1999 I think it is safe for me to say I have some feel for what the community were like and extensive knowledge of the game. The problem is there is a hardcore and very loud group of people who think social interaction and community is all about fighting monsters in a group (the project1999 crowd), but though they are loud it is a tiny group and not really a representation of the opinions of eq players through its history.

The thing is with most players that we are moderately social and can only handle being in a tight construct (like grouping) for some percentage of your playing time - This was also the case in eq, and it is true for games today. It is not only about modern players having shorter play sessions (though that plays a part too), but also that a group can be a limiting construct and players want some "free time" to not be dependent and depended upon by other people.. and this is why other non-grouping (but still social) activities are so important to have.

There is no doubt soloing is the great culprit in modern mmos (if you can call them that anymore), but going completely in the other direction is just as bad; we need both for a full mmorpg experience .. for a full oldschool experience. Yes some of the greatest memories in mmorpgs were with other people and mostly in groups, and grouping is extremely important - Or taking a higher perspective on that .. co-op and roles are the important part, not really the group part. And playing that role can be represented in many other(more) ways that killing monsters in a group.

Kyleran · August 2018

ikcin said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

You will not only need forced grouping but slow leveling for a real community to form around purely combat. I am just not sure it's a viable way to do things anymore. Combat is the main event and players don't like to wait.

Focusing on crafting and even sandbox elements with shops and player housing is a more casual way to have players interact.

WTF? Could you imagine multiplayer crafting? Like you can craft one element and need another crafter for other. Or you even play a game, where the crafters cooperate and compete. It is not about combat. Everything in a game could be made solo or multiplayer. Look at BDO - it is an excellent example how the things could be make singleplayer and the PvP does not matter.

Kyleran said:

Fairly certain he supports multiplayer for everything, even when going to the restroom at home.

Well, do not mistake the real life with games. I like my privacy in the life. But in fact to drink with friends is better than to solo in the rest room

"Drink with friends"

Now there's an activity I rarely get to do as my only real friend is a woman 14 years my junior who my wife has only grudgedly accepted for the past 19 years when I've gone out drinking.

Go figure.

Kyleran · August 2018

ikcin said:

Kyleran said:

"Drink with friends"

Now there's an activity I rarely get to do as my only real friend is a woman 14 years my junior who my wife has only grudgedly accepted for the past 19 years when I've gone out drinking.

Go figure.

So I have to explain - when you drink with friends you have to go to the rest room, it is forced - multiplayer open world with often challenging, as Scot pointed, singleplayer instance.

Interesting, when I go drinking with my friend she never invites me to the restroom to go with.....

Vermillion_Raventhal · August 2018

ikcin said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

You will not only need forced grouping but slow leveling for a real community to form around purely combat. I am just not sure it's a viable way to do things anymore. Combat is the main event and players don't like to wait.

Focusing on crafting and even sandbox elements with shops and player housing is a more casual way to have players interact.

WTF? Could you imagine multiplayer crafting? Like you can craft one element and need another crafter for other. Or you even play a game, where the crafters cooperate and compete. It is not about combat. Everything in a game could be made solo or multiplayer. Look at BDO - it is an excellent example how the things could be make singleplayer and the PvP does not matter.

Kyleran said:

Fairly certain he supports multiplayer for everything, even when going to the restroom at home.

Well, do not mistake the real life with games. I like my privacy in the life. But in fact to drink with friends is better than to solo in the rest room

Yes, multiplayer crafting would be great. It has worked before where the best is created by specialist. Other specialist provide the best parts.

You could also have community building projects. Like you want to adventure to dimension X... you have the community craft the portal. Maybe a huge bridge is need to pass a gorge. Community builds the bridge project. m 24

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Crafting and trading are better community anchors...

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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Crafting and trading are better community anchors...

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV