As someone who hates playing rogues and dps classes in general, i was actually pretty impressed with the reveal because it looked like they will likely have quite a few tricks to help a group and save a bad situation rather than just be simple dps.
In the end I could really care less about rogue, I'm not a rogue player. I'm more concerned with the total lack of creativity on the class designers part. I'm 100% confident there's a Pantheon volunteer out there that would do a much better job but more importantly, put forth effort.
Because they should probably make room for someone more creative and/or talented. I seriously hope this person isn't designing all the classes because thats some of the most copy paste gameplay I've ever seen. If you watch the most recent streams, Pantheon rogues are watered down WoW rogues. They have the fast yellow energy bar, the ranged blind CC and a bunch of typical generic dps buttons that will likely turn into a mindless rotation.
This is a troubling lack of innovation with a game trying to avoid the themepark branding. Yes it's prealpha but that's the direction rogue has been going since their first stream and this is the best time for feedback. Designing a class with that many similarities to WoW shows a serious lack of understanding for the direction of the project or that person just doesn't care nearly enough.
Where do you think WoW copied its rogue from?
Yeah. That's right. EverQuest.
Who made EverQuest?
Yeah. That's right. Brad McQuaid.
Who is making Pantheon?
Yeah. That's right. Brad McQuaid.
So, who copied who?
Yeah. That's right. WoW copied EverQuest. Pantheon's rogue IS the original rogue that WoW copied/pasted into its game.
It's disturbing how many people agree with this. EQ rogue spammed 1 button 99% of the time, with no other options. WoW copied alot of things from EQ but that wasnt one of them.
Shouting Everquest and Brad McQuaid might be good for forum points and youtube soundbytes but it doesn't ground you in reality.
Lol I still remember how rogues were the best corpse draggers in Vanguard. Rogue stealth was a very handy thing. Basically a rogue could go anywhere and would only be found if they bumped into a mob. Bards were pretty sweet corpse draggers to, I once saw one dragging what l would say was his entire party out of the ant mound at high speed before I got done in by the swarm that was chasing him. I had a static for sometime, where we would get the templar ganked and the rogue would drag his corpse deep into the dungeon and raise him in a safe spot. Where upon the Templar would summon the remainder of the party to him. Rogue stealth was nerfed later in the game, I assume due to this work around. Fair enough to I don't think this sort of thinking outside of the box was intended This also reminds me how you could climb a mountain near Trengal keep and have a team member cast levitate on the group. You could all then run through the air slowly descending into the middle of the dungeon so you did not have to fight your way in. So many fond memories of so many awesome dungeons in that game. I sure hope this game works out. Every mmo I have tried since, dungeons are just uber fast dps blitz with no thought required. Its boring as. I do remember also finding a boss way deep in some tunnels near that Elven town with the armour quest series. The boss took 15 minutes to kill and didn't drop squat( a fairly hard fight but not scary which soon became monotonous ). Some forgotten corner of the realm the devs must have forgotten as the boss should have had way less hp I think( 15 minute fights for a group is rather excessive ).
Yeah it makes me cringe when new MMO's give 4 different classes stealth, 3 classes a charge attack and 5 classes a throwaway pet. I don't know how watering down gameplay became so popular but I'm fairly confident most people despise it. Maybe it's easier to vomit out mindless development(aka Pantheon rogue) but it does no favors to the finished product.
Go play Rogue/Thief in FFXI on some free trial or free server and you'll soon realize how bad these games are doing classes.
Every single ability this Rogue has is in FFXI but WAY more on the FFXI Thief. This Pantheon team still does NOT get it.WHERE is the player to player interaction abilities?FFXI has SATA proper positioning and hate transfer at higher levels.
Seriously ,i would fall asleep the first day playing this Rogue class and that is if they gave me ALL of the abilities at level 1.Perhaps only one bad or shallow class design,i hope to god the other classes are 10 fold better than this.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I can't believe I'm going to say this but I miss a D&D Rogues. Rogues we're about utility and not simply pure dps.
D&D was awesome because it didn't have tanks, a trinity, or DPS. AoEs also hit your allies, you could use positioning to your advantage, so much deeper than any computer game has managed.
Where are you seeing a full list of rogue abilities? I dont think that info is out there yet. In fact, I dont think they have even half finalized it yet.
What Im hoping for is a combat system with synergies. Meaning one ability helps another so there are reasons to do one then another in combo, but at the same time be complex enough so its not always the right play to do the same pattern every time.
For the people being critical of the rogue design in this game or any other game for that matter, please explain how you think it can be done better. I'm not bashing you i just don't see how you could really do it without really compromising gameplay.
I agree the Rogue in the D&D sense has a lot more to it then just Stealth and DPS. They also typically have slight of hand, trickery, high perception and mechanical skills to disarm traps, etc. but frankly don't see how you could really do that in an MMORPG.
I mean think about it...you could probably implement traps in dungeons and have the rogue disarm them no problem. But what about stealing? That would completely trivialize content. In D&D nothing was out of the realm of possibilities for you. The biggest badass fucking monster or opponent on the planet could be in front of you and your DM/GM would let you try to pick pocket it and as long as you roll well enough you probably succeed and get a bunch of praise and high fives from your party members. BUT if it fails, the DM punishes you and you enter combat and have the possibility of even dying and losing your character for good.
Plus you never revisit the same area really, what I mean if you steal something powerful and avoid combat ok you completed the mission and the DM/GM has to dream up a new quest for you to go on with your party. But in an MMORPG, even if you fail you don't lose your character and frankly can enter the "dungeon" as many times as you would like basically having infinite tries to steal the awesome loot. The game then basically turns into the party waits while the rogue does his thing. Thats not fun at all either.
I'm simply saying pen and paper D&D rules are setup in a way that just lends itself to the Rogue being more powerful outside of combat because there aren't infinite chances like in video games.
A little OT, but Id like to make a rogue suggestion to devs.
In EQ there are doors that you flat out cannot get past unless you have a rogue to unlock them. I think it's is silly now that we are 50 levels past that content and a player going back to farm tradeskill mats still cannot pass that door without begging a rogue to come along with him just to unlock the door.
The solution I would suggest is that doors can be broken down. Maybe make it impossible for current content, or make it take so long it isnt worth it or have monster spawns as a consequence of all the noise. But when later expacs hit and level cap is increased and Im X levels above that door it really should be trivial for me to break it.
In one of the dungeon vids I watched, the guy playing the rogue character seemed bored and disinterested. He'd join in fights only when the mob was almost dead and just didnt seem very enthused.
A little OT, but Id like to make a rogue suggestion to devs.
In EQ there are doors that you flat out cannot get past unless you have a rogue to unlock them. I think it's is silly now that we are 50 levels past that content and a player going back to farm tradeskill mats still cannot pass that door without begging a rogue to come along with him just to unlock the door.
The solution I would suggest is that doors can be broken down. Maybe make it impossible for current content, or make it take so long it isnt worth it or have monster spawns as a consequence of all the noise. But when later expacs hit and level cap is increased and Im X levels above that door it really should be trivial for me to break it.
I disagree.
In EQ1, rogues were the best at picking locks. But there were a few other classes that could do it too (Bards at least). Current max level content locked doors might be too high for a Bard to open. But after an expansion/level cap raise, then they could do it.
Something like that I think is fine. But you don't want to ever make it so every class could open the rogue only doors. That takes away class interdependence and one of the rogues key utilities.
Its like when EQ1 added NPCs that could summon corpses. Or other ones that could Rez.
The class interdependence is necessary for the community, group oriented game Pantheon is trying to build.
A little OT, but Id like to make a rogue suggestion to devs.
In EQ there are doors that you flat out cannot get past unless you have a rogue to unlock them. I think it's is silly now that we are 50 levels past that content and a player going back to farm tradeskill mats still cannot pass that door without begging a rogue to come along with him just to unlock the door.
The solution I would suggest is that doors can be broken down. Maybe make it impossible for current content, or make it take so long it isnt worth it or have monster spawns as a consequence of all the noise. But when later expacs hit and level cap is increased and Im X levels above that door it really should be trivial for me to break it.
I disagree.
In EQ1, rogues were the best at picking locks. But there were a few other classes that could do it too (Bards at least). Current max level content locked doors might be too high for a Bard to open. But after an expansion/level cap raise, then they could do it.
Something like that I think is fine. But you don't want to ever make it so every class could open the rogue only doors. That takes away class interdependence and one of the rogues key utilities.
Its like when EQ1 added NPCs that could summon corpses. Or other ones that could Rez.
The class interdependence is necessary for the community, group oriented game Pantheon is trying to build.
Depending on rogues is fine when content is newish. But asking a rogue to come to a dungeon 10 expacs old is an imposition. When groups are not doing that content anymore its not a positive value to continue the interdependence. It changes from "hey we need a rogue in the group to do this, can you come?" to "hey I need this door unlocked could you please come all the way out here just long enough to get me past it?". Not good. It really is an issue in current day EQ.
Are you saying you think you should have to beg a rogue to come help, even in content when he has no reason to be there except as a lockpicker?
A little OT, but Id like to make a rogue suggestion to devs.
In EQ there are doors that you flat out cannot get past unless you have a rogue to unlock them. I think it's is silly now that we are 50 levels past that content and a player going back to farm tradeskill mats still cannot pass that door without begging a rogue to come along with him just to unlock the door.
The solution I would suggest is that doors can be broken down. Maybe make it impossible for current content, or make it take so long it isnt worth it or have monster spawns as a consequence of all the noise. But when later expacs hit and level cap is increased and Im X levels above that door it really should be trivial for me to break it.
I disagree.
In EQ1, rogues were the best at picking locks. But there were a few other classes that could do it too (Bards at least). Current max level content locked doors might be too high for a Bard to open. But after an expansion/level cap raise, then they could do it.
Something like that I think is fine. But you don't want to ever make it so every class could open the rogue only doors. That takes away class interdependence and one of the rogues key utilities.
Its like when EQ1 added NPCs that could summon corpses. Or other ones that could Rez.
The class interdependence is necessary for the community, group oriented game Pantheon is trying to build.
Depending on rogues is fine when content is newish. But asking a rogue to come to a dungeon 10 expacs old is an imposition. When groups are not doing that content anymore its not a positive value to continue the interdependence. It changes from "hey we need a rogue in the group to do this, can you come?" to "hey I need this door unlocked could you please come all the way out here just long enough to get me past it?". Not good. It really is an issue in current day EQ.
Are you saying you think you should have to beg a rogue to come help, even in content when he has no reason to be there except as a lockpicker?
How is it any different than having to beg a cleric to come help you when he has no reason to be there except as a rezzer? Or a necro to summon your corpse?
Making a classes pivotal utility open to everyone, even after X number of expansions, is not something I think should happen. I can see opening up lockpicking to more than one class (like I mentioned with Bards), but not everyone.
I'll take the D&D Rogue over the PC gaming industry's version any day of the week.
Brad's problem has always been the focus on class interdependence with very little class interaction. Example, mage putting up firewall so ranger can fire arrows through it to make fire arrows....things like this are what make D&D superior to most if not all MMORPG's. How about a cleric casting a healing cloud and the mage summons a wind gust to spread it out and heal party members not in the immediate area? Why are developers so narrow minded or just plain lazy when it comes to class design and class interactions? Group combos are the lazy version of this kind of interactivity.
A little OT, but Id like to make a rogue suggestion to devs.
In EQ there are doors that you flat out cannot get past unless you have a rogue to unlock them. I think it's is silly now that we are 50 levels past that content and a player going back to farm tradeskill mats still cannot pass that door without begging a rogue to come along with him just to unlock the door.
The solution I would suggest is that doors can be broken down. Maybe make it impossible for current content, or make it take so long it isnt worth it or have monster spawns as a consequence of all the noise. But when later expacs hit and level cap is increased and Im X levels above that door it really should be trivial for me to break it.
I disagree.
In EQ1, rogues were the best at picking locks. But there were a few other classes that could do it too (Bards at least). Current max level content locked doors might be too high for a Bard to open. But after an expansion/level cap raise, then they could do it.
Something like that I think is fine. But you don't want to ever make it so every class could open the rogue only doors. That takes away class interdependence and one of the rogues key utilities.
Its like when EQ1 added NPCs that could summon corpses. Or other ones that could Rez.
The class interdependence is necessary for the community, group oriented game Pantheon is trying to build.
Depending on rogues is fine when content is newish. But asking a rogue to come to a dungeon 10 expacs old is an imposition. When groups are not doing that content anymore its not a positive value to continue the interdependence. It changes from "hey we need a rogue in the group to do this, can you come?" to "hey I need this door unlocked could you please come all the way out here just long enough to get me past it?". Not good. It really is an issue in current day EQ.
Are you saying you think you should have to beg a rogue to come help, even in content when he has no reason to be there except as a lockpicker?
How is it any different than having to beg a cleric to come help you when he has no reason to be there except as a rezzer? Or a necro to summon your corpse?
You just made my point actually. If there is no difference then a rogue should be equally needed as that cleric or necro - which is to say not needed at all. When I go to Old Sebilis mobs literally die to riposte before I have a chance to turn autoattack on. The dungeon has been completely trivialized by a raised level cap, except for that one door.
It seems like you are stuck thinking about current content where you need to call for help from clerics and necros. I wasnt talking about current content, I was talking about older content.
An alternative would be for crafters to be able to make skeleton keys or explosives. You could make it so they can never open relevant content but could be used for older stuff. This keeps Rogue lockpick uniquely useful for current content, gives crafters an extra something useful to make, and keeps the potential of player interaction without making a class trudge out to obsolete areas
Yeah it makes me cringe when new MMO's give 4 different classes stealth, 3 classes a charge attack and 5 classes a throwaway pet. I don't know how watering down gameplay became so popular but I'm fairly confident most people despise it. Maybe it's easier to vomit out mindless development(aka Pantheon rogue) but it does no favors to the finished product.
I've played a few MMOs, but mostly I stay away from stealth / rogue classes. Anyhow, from what I've experienced, rogues in Pantheon are not much different then most rogue classes in the genre that use tab targeting. When you say rogues in Pantheon are just a watered down WoW rogue, is that supposed to be a bad thing? What does a WoW rogue have that you're not seeing here? Specific examples go a long way in justifying your argument.
Not to be overdramatic but this response is everything that's wrong with the internet. You ask for more info but don't even read the OP, which has all the examples you requested. You try to argue all rogue's are the same, while admitting you don't even play them in the same post.
Because they should probably make room for someone more creative and/or talented. I seriously hope this person isn't designing all the classes because thats some of the most copy paste gameplay I've ever seen. If you watch the most recent streams, Pantheon rogues are watered down WoW rogues. They have the fast yellow energy bar, the ranged blind CC and a bunch of typical generic dps buttons that will likely turn into a mindless rotation.
This is a troubling lack of innovation with a game trying to avoid the themepark branding. Yes it's prealpha but that's the direction rogue has been going since their first stream and this is the best time for feedback. Designing a class with that many similarities to WoW shows a serious lack of understanding for the direction of the project or that person just doesn't care nearly enough.
First and foremost WoW's rogue was the lazy ass design rip off of Brad's rogue in the first place. Second off, not every game/class/design needs to be made specifically to appease you as an individual or even the mass market of games. Brad and company are making an old school style RPG and know it is a niche title.
They are not trying to innovate heavily, they are not trying to reinvent the wheel and they are not making a game just for you as an individual. I feel like to many individuals on these sites anymore have become jaded hacks and don't know a lick of design work or the like. Rogue's work and Brad knows what the heck he is doing design wise far more than you.
Just because you feel it lazy design wise doesn't make it lazy design wise. They are going for a certain old school feeling with the entire game. It is a niche title and clearly isn't for you so stop trying to make it into a game for you.
I'll take the D&D Rogue over the PC gaming industry's version any day of the week.
Brad's problem has always been the focus on class interdependence with very little class interaction. Example, mage putting up firewall so ranger can fire arrows through it to make fire arrows....things like this are what make D&D superior to most if not all MMORPG's. How about a cleric casting a healing cloud and the mage summons a wind gust to spread it out and heal party members not in the immediate area? Why are developers so narrow minded or just plain lazy when it comes to class design and class interactions? Group combos are the lazy version of this kind of interactivity.
It's largely because it isn't as easy to do what you are suggesting using game engines and the like. Group combos are done as you need the checks to be there for different skills and the like when programming them in.
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I had a static for sometime, where we would get the templar ganked and the rogue would drag his corpse deep into the dungeon and raise him in a safe spot. Where upon the Templar would summon the remainder of the party to him.
Rogue stealth was nerfed later in the game, I assume due to this work around. Fair enough to I don't think this sort of thinking outside of the box was intended
This also reminds me how you could climb a mountain near Trengal keep and have a team member cast levitate on the group. You could all then run through the air slowly descending into the middle of the dungeon so you did not have to fight your way in.
So many fond memories of so many awesome dungeons in that game. I sure hope this game works out. Every mmo I have tried since, dungeons are just uber fast dps blitz with no thought required. Its boring as.
I do remember also finding a boss way deep in some tunnels near that Elven town with the armour quest series. The boss took 15 minutes to kill and didn't drop squat( a fairly hard fight but not scary which soon became monotonous ). Some forgotten corner of the realm the devs must have forgotten as the boss should have had way less hp I think( 15 minute fights for a group is rather excessive ).
Anyway enough rambling. Save me Pantheon.
Go play Rogue/Thief in FFXI on some free trial or free server and you'll soon realize how bad these games are doing classes.
Every single ability this Rogue has is in FFXI but WAY more on the FFXI Thief.
This Pantheon team still does NOT get it.WHERE is the player to player interaction abilities?FFXI has SATA proper positioning and hate transfer at higher levels.
Seriously ,i would fall asleep the first day playing this Rogue class and that is if they gave me ALL of the abilities at level 1.Perhaps only one bad or shallow class design,i hope to god the other classes are 10 fold better than this.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I agree the Rogue in the D&D sense has a lot more to it then just Stealth and DPS. They also typically have slight of hand, trickery, high perception and mechanical skills to disarm traps, etc. but frankly don't see how you could really do that in an MMORPG.
I mean think about it...you could probably implement traps in dungeons and have the rogue disarm them no problem. But what about stealing? That would completely trivialize content. In D&D nothing was out of the realm of possibilities for you. The biggest badass fucking monster or opponent on the planet could be in front of you and your DM/GM would let you try to pick pocket it and as long as you roll well enough you probably succeed and get a bunch of praise and high fives from your party members. BUT if it fails, the DM punishes you and you enter combat and have the possibility of even dying and losing your character for good.
Plus you never revisit the same area really, what I mean if you steal something powerful and avoid combat ok you completed the mission and the DM/GM has to dream up a new quest for you to go on with your party. But in an MMORPG, even if you fail you don't lose your character and frankly can enter the "dungeon" as many times as you would like basically having infinite tries to steal the awesome loot. The game then basically turns into the party waits while the rogue does his thing. Thats not fun at all either.
I'm simply saying pen and paper D&D rules are setup in a way that just lends itself to the Rogue being more powerful outside of combat because there aren't infinite chances like in video games.
In EQ1, rogues were the best at picking locks. But there were a few other classes that could do it too (Bards at least). Current max level content locked doors might be too high for a Bard to open. But after an expansion/level cap raise, then they could do it.
Something like that I think is fine. But you don't want to ever make it so every class could open the rogue only doors. That takes away class interdependence and one of the rogues key utilities.
Its like when EQ1 added NPCs that could summon corpses. Or other ones that could Rez.
The class interdependence is necessary for the community, group oriented game Pantheon is trying to build.
Making a classes pivotal utility open to everyone, even after X number of expansions, is not something I think should happen. I can see opening up lockpicking to more than one class (like I mentioned with Bards), but not everyone.
Brad's problem has always been the focus on class interdependence with very little class interaction. Example, mage putting up firewall so ranger can fire arrows through it to make fire arrows....things like this are what make D&D superior to most if not all MMORPG's. How about a cleric casting a healing cloud and the mage summons a wind gust to spread it out and heal party members not in the immediate area? Why are developers so narrow minded or just plain lazy when it comes to class design and class interactions? Group combos are the lazy version of this kind of interactivity.
They are not trying to innovate heavily, they are not trying to reinvent the wheel and they are not making a game just for you as an individual. I feel like to many individuals on these sites anymore have become jaded hacks and don't know a lick of design work or the like. Rogue's work and Brad knows what the heck he is doing design wise far more than you.
Just because you feel it lazy design wise doesn't make it lazy design wise. They are going for a certain old school feeling with the entire game. It is a niche title and clearly isn't for you so stop trying to make it into a game for you.