Watch the video and judge for yourself the information and its validity. I see a lot of misinformation on all sides of the arguments but most of it is via second hand information and with no actual thoughts or research put into any of it. Truly disappointed at the writer of this article for their part in the misinformation and would hope that they fix this issue with some true journalistic integrity.
I'm not about to watch an hour and 30 minutes of that. Care to point us with time stamps to the part where he says they are not releasing Apocalypse as a F2P BR mode in December?
I was able to find a (hopefully accurate) written summary of the video for those of us with real lives and it presents this in a more proper light.
That said, the harbinger in me believes they gave the BR test mode it's own code name of Apocalypse in order to market it separately in the future as a F2P, stand alone mode with (perhaps) purchasable cosmetics, a la PUBG or Fortnite.
Sort of brilliant really, they'll get people playing this first, and since there will be rewards that can be earned in the BR which transfer to the main title, it could bring a horde of new gamers who are not currently backers to it at launch.
They might decide to keep it entirely F2P, and use it strictly as a drawing tool for new customers to the main game, if so then really no harm, no foul unless they try to turn it into a money maker.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Watch the video and judge for yourself the information and its validity. I see a lot of misinformation on all sides of the arguments but most of it is via second hand information and with no actual thoughts or research put into any of it. Truly disappointed at the writer of this article for their part in the misinformation and would hope that they fix this issue with some true journalistic integrity.
I was told by a relative who is a software dev in the gaming industry to be skeptical of anything being said about a game in development until proven otherwise. I was told this many years ago and I can't count the number of times that has saved me from making bad purchasing decisions when it comes to games.
I think that advice is more prudent in this day and age than it's ever been.
Gaming is a growth industry which outsold films a few years back I think. This is one of the factors that has pushed gaming from something made by enthusiasts who also wanted to make a mint to those just wanting to make a mint.
Watch the video and judge for yourself the information and its validity. I see a lot of misinformation on all sides of the arguments but most of it is via second hand information and with no actual thoughts or research put into any of it. Truly disappointed at the writer of this article for their part in the misinformation and would hope that they fix this issue with some true journalistic integrity.
I'm not about to watch an hour and 30 minutes of that. Care to point us with time stamps to the part where he says they are not releasing Apocalypse as a F2P BR mode in December?
I was able to find a (hopefully accurate) written summary of the video for those of us with real lives and it presents this in a more proper light.
That said, the harbinger in me believes they gave the BR test mode it's own code name of Apocalypse in order to market it separately in the future as a F2P, stand alone mode with (perhaps) purchasable cosmetics, a la PUBG or Fortnite.
Sort of brilliant really, they'll get people playing this first, and since there will be rewards that can be earned in the BR which transfer to the main title, it could bring a horde of new gamers who are not currently backers to it at launch.
They might decide to keep it entirely F2P, and use it strictly as a drawing tool for new customers to the main game, if so then really no harm, no foul unless they try to turn it into a money maker.
It doesn't matter if they committed to or merely hinted at to me. It wasn't part of the Kickstarter plan. The test phases as outlined in the Kickstarter are NOTHING like their current plan. That is the frustrating part.
Now we're on a Battle Royale track. They're getting feedback about the game and combat from people who like BR, not from people who don't. I'm not reassured by the ambiguity in the stream. I'm more concerned by that because it shows their direction is far less concrete than it should be at this point in development. There was a distinct clarity and focus in their original plan, when they launched and KS'd this project. I think there is a valid concern that focus is getting diluted.
I'm not reassured because games as a service have demonstrated they're willing to go whatever way the revenue wind is blowing at the moment. The time to say whoa, pull the reigns, and make sure we're on track is now, not later. There isn't any trust at all here, or shouldn't be. There should be clear communication about state, then we won't need to extend trust. Nothing about this industry engenders trust.
Holy crap... I am ordering you a full set of black robes whether you want them or not!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Watch the video and judge for yourself the information and its validity. I see a lot of misinformation on all sides of the arguments but most of it is via second hand information and with no actual thoughts or research put into any of it. Truly disappointed at the writer of this article for their part in the misinformation and would hope that they fix this issue with some true journalistic integrity.
I'm not about to watch an hour and 30 minutes of that. Care to point us with time stamps to the part where he says they are not releasing Apocalypse as a F2P BR mode in December?
It feels like grade school all over again, doesn't it? When a person tries to dispute something without proving their are right but want you to prove they are wrong....
Watch the video and judge for yourself the information and its validity. I see a lot of misinformation on all sides of the arguments but most of it is via second hand information and with no actual thoughts or research put into any of it. Truly disappointed at the writer of this article for their part in the misinformation and would hope that they fix this issue with some true journalistic integrity.
I'm not about to watch an hour and 30 minutes of that. Care to point us with time stamps to the part where he says they are not releasing Apocalypse as a F2P BR mode in December?
It feels like grade school all over again, doesn't it? When a person tries to dispute something without proving their are right but want you to prove they are wrong....
It was actually a rhetorical question (massively did mention that the discussion about Apoc starts at around 35 minutes) and F2P, BR mode and December are all there. That's why I asked for a time stamp to where they contradict what this article says since he and the other cultist account were claiming lack of journalistic integrity without any specifics.
And @torval is absolutely right in that this at the very least indicates a change in development schedule. How much (or little) this will impact the development of the core MMO we just don't know but I suspect that will be determined by just how much general interest they see for their Apoc mode.
I mean... it's not like most of us don't already know that Fortnite BR is just one mode of the now mostly neglected core Fortnite. It's perfectly reasonable to wonder if this will also be Ashe's fate.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Watch the video and judge for yourself the information and its validity. I see a lot of misinformation on all sides of the arguments but most of it is via second hand information and with no actual thoughts or research put into any of it. Truly disappointed at the writer of this article for their part in the misinformation and would hope that they fix this issue with some true journalistic integrity.
I'm not about to watch an hour and 30 minutes of that. Care to point us with time stamps to the part where he says they are not releasing Apocalypse as a F2P BR mode in December?
It feels like grade school all over again, doesn't it? When a person tries to dispute something without proving their are right but want you to prove they are wrong....
It was actually a rhetorical question (massively did mention that the discussion about Apoc starts at around 35 minutes) and F2P, BR mode and December are all there. That's why I asked for a time stamp to where they contradict what this article says since he and the other cultist account were claiming lack of journalistic integrity without any specifics.
And torval is absolutely right in that this at the very least indicates a change in development schedule. How much (or little) this will impact the development of the core MMO we just don't know but I suspect that will be determined by just how much general interest they see for their Apoc mode.
I mean... it's not like most of us don't already know that Fortnite BR is just one mode of the now mostly neglected core Fortnite. It's perfectly reasonable to wonder if this will also be Ashe's fate.
It would have dramatically influenced my decision whether or not to "early adopt" or back the KS. I am interested in a studio that would build a true spiritual Lineage 1 successor. ArcheAge actually has a lot of that in it, Jake Song was a lead designer in both, and I saw a lot of that in early presentations for this game.
What I'm completely uninterested in is Battle Royale, or free for all survival pvp ala ARK, Conan Exiles, etc. If they would have been up front at the time and said, this is a possible direction we'll take the game, then I would have waited.
If they didn't know that it was a possible direction at the time, then it has zero place in the product they crowdfunded. I Kickstarted a specific game, not a game company.
So while they may still be on track to deliver the MMO they promised to try and make, I feel like that has now taken a back burner to the fluffy PR driven Battle Royale mode. It may not be true, but it's my perception and that is all that matters, because anything beyond that requires trust.
This is where the argument we've (specifically, the Harbinger folks, but some of us other users too) been having with supporters of these projects comes from.
The devs change the "game" substantially, then delay delay delay while continuing to rake in cash, and we pound our heads against the wall of the true believing backers who say "it's just software development, man!"
So while they may still be on track to deliver the MMO they promised to try and make, I feel like that has now taken a back burner to the fluffy PR driven Battle Royale mode. It may not be true, but it's my perception and that is all that matters, because anything beyond that requires trust.
If the BR mode that anyone can DL and play becomes a hit when that new crowd it will attract gets a taste (and someone like @TimEisen writes an article about how much fun it is ) I could easily see that as an excuse to change focus.
Stephen is trying to characterize Apocalypse as mostly a stress test and a kind of intro to the full Ashes experience.
But long before this in many posts I have made here I have expressed my view that BR games and MMORPGs are inherently very different types of games that appeal to very different demographics. One attracts the crowd that wants to invest little time in all the leveling and prep work required to become PvP ready in an MMORPG and just wants to jump into the fun immediately and the other crowd is there to enjoy the world with all of its leveling and prep work.
This game up to now has courted the 2nd crowd especially during their early reveals and KS campaign, and this BR for all Apoc mode will attract the much larger (going by the huge success of the many recent games that cater to them) other crowd.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Watch the video and judge for yourself the information and its validity. I see a lot of misinformation on all sides of the arguments but most of it is via second hand information and with no actual thoughts or research put into any of it. Truly disappointed at the writer of this article for their part in the misinformation and would hope that they fix this issue with some true journalistic integrity.
I'm not about to watch an hour and 30 minutes of that. Care to point us with time stamps to the part where he says they are not releasing Apocalypse as a F2P BR mode in December?
It feels like grade school all over again, doesn't it? When a person tries to dispute something without proving their are right but want you to prove they are wrong....
It was actually a rhetorical question (massively did mention that the discussion about Apoc starts at around 35 minutes) and F2P, BR mode and December are all there. That's why I asked for a time stamp to where they contradict what this article says since he and the other cultist account were claiming lack of journalistic integrity without any specifics.
And torval is absolutely right in that this at the very least indicates a change in development schedule. How much (or little) this will impact the development of the core MMO we just don't know but I suspect that will be determined by just how much general interest they see for their Apoc mode.
I mean... it's not like most of us don't already know that Fortnite BR is just one mode of the now mostly neglected core Fortnite. It's perfectly reasonable to wonder if this will also be Ashe's fate.
It would have dramatically influenced my decision whether or not to "early adopt" or back the KS. I am interested in a studio that would build a true spiritual Lineage 1 successor. ArcheAge actually has a lot of that in it, Jake Song was a lead designer in both, and I saw a lot of that in early presentations for this game.
What I'm completely uninterested in is Battle Royale, or free for all survival pvp ala ARK, Conan Exiles, etc. If they would have been up front at the time and said, this is a possible direction we'll take the game, then I would have waited.
If they didn't know that it was a possible direction at the time, then it has zero place in the product they crowdfunded. I Kickstarted a specific game, not a game company.
So while they may still be on track to deliver the MMO they promised to try and make, I feel like that has now taken a back burner to the fluffy PR driven Battle Royale mode. It may not be true, but it's my perception and that is all that matters, because anything beyond that requires trust.
This is where the argument we've (specifically, the Harbinger folks, but some of us other users too) been having with supporters of these projects comes from.
The devs change the "game" substantially, then delay delay delay while continuing to rake in cash, and we pound our heads against the wall of the true believing backers who say "it's just software development, man!"
Followed by "it will "release" when its finished, but don't ask when that might happen, software development is hard."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A - develope pve content for the 30 mmorpg.com posters who will run threw, hate it, or both in 30 days time.
B - Put out a battle royal/castle siege mode with already developed content that may attract 100,000’s of players that will stay many months or even years
Id choose B, just saying. As long as I get character progression and customization, I think I’d rather have it this way.
A - develope pve content for the 30 mmorpg.com posters who will run threw, hate it, or both in 30 days time.
B - Put out a battle royal/castle siege mode with already developed content that may attract 100,000’s of players that will stay many months or even years
Id choose B, just saying. As long as I get character progression and customization, I think I’d rather have it this way.
Which is fine if you sold Game B...
but if you sell game A to people and then work on / deliver game B that is simply not right.
It comes back to my Golden Rules:
Say what you mean Do what you say Do it reasonably close to when you say you will do it
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
A - develope pve content for the 30 mmorpg.com posters who will run threw, hate it, or both in 30 days time.
B - Put out a battle royal/castle siege mode with already developed content that may attract 100,000’s of players that will stay many months or even years
Id choose B, just saying. As long as I get character progression and customization, I think I’d rather have it this way.
Which is fine if you sold Game B...
but if you sell game A to people and then work on / deliver game B that is simply not right.
It comes back to my Golden Rules:
Say what you mean Do what you say Do it reasonably close to when you say you will do it
If I might add one more item..
If truly not possible or even desirable to deliver on these three tenants, offer full refunds to backers of the original vision.
They deserve the opportunity to withdraw from the field.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Watch the video and judge for yourself the information and its validity. I see a lot of misinformation on all sides of the arguments but most of it is via second hand information and with no actual thoughts or research put into any of it. Truly disappointed at the writer of this article for their part in the misinformation and would hope that they fix this issue with some true journalistic integrity.
I'm not about to watch an hour and 30 minutes of that. Care to point us with time stamps to the part where he says they are not releasing Apocalypse as a F2P BR mode in December?
I was able to find a (hopefully accurate) written summary of the video for those of us with real lives and it presents this in a more proper light.
That said, the harbinger in me believes they gave the BR test mode it's own code name of Apocalypse in order to market it separately in the future as a F2P, stand alone mode with (perhaps) purchasable cosmetics, a la PUBG or Fortnite.
Sort of brilliant really, they'll get people playing this first, and since there will be rewards that can be earned in the BR which transfer to the main title, it could bring a horde of new gamers who are not currently backers to it at launch.
They might decide to keep it entirely F2P, and use it strictly as a drawing tool for new customers to the main game, if so then really no harm, no foul unless they try to turn it into a money maker.
It doesn't matter if they committed to or merely hinted at to me. It wasn't part of the Kickstarter plan. The test phases as outlined in the Kickstarter are NOTHING like their current plan. That is the frustrating part.
Now we're on a Battle Royale track. They're getting feedback about the game and combat from people who like BR, not from people who don't. I'm not reassured by the ambiguity in the stream. I'm more concerned by that because it shows their direction is far less concrete than it should be at this point in development. There was a distinct clarity and focus in their original plan, when they launched and KS'd this project. I think there is a valid concern that focus is getting diluted.
I'm not reassured because games as a service have demonstrated they're willing to go whatever way the revenue wind is blowing at the moment. The time to say whoa, pull the reigns, and make sure we're on track is now, not later. There isn't any trust at all here, or shouldn't be. There should be clear communication about state, then we won't need to extend trust. Nothing about this industry engenders trust.
This exactly. The plan and vision they had presented in their KS campaign was incredibly clear and focused on the creation of an older style MMORPG with the innovation of the evolving node system. Steven Sharif expressly stated MULTIPLE times that the reason to even start the project was the frustration of being disappointed by MMO developers that were chasing fads and microtransaction systems. That is what sold me on the KS. He talked about the MMORPG as if he had an unshakable resolve to deliver only that.
Even if they continue to develop the MMORPG, BR is still time, effort and resources diverted to something that was never in its plan. The idea of incentive also comes when you introduce this "side game"; what is the incentive to put as much work into the mmo when or if the BR becomes popular? If its popular or grows exponentially its going to take programmers to work out the bugs, more network resources to keep it accessible, and just more supervision. They can't keep it completely "free", they'll have to at least place a Fortnite cosmetic shop since thats standard. Will the world design workflow go from the active BR mode to the under-development mmo or vice versa? They will be essentially backing themselves into a corner because if the BR ISNT to a certain quality it garners negative attention which reflects badly on their ability to develop games in the first place.
Watch the video and judge for yourself the information and its validity. I see a lot of misinformation on all sides of the arguments but most of it is via second hand information and with no actual thoughts or research put into any of it. Truly disappointed at the writer of this article for their part in the misinformation and would hope that they fix this issue with some true journalistic integrity.
I'm not about to watch an hour and 30 minutes of that. Care to point us with time stamps to the part where he says they are not releasing Apocalypse as a F2P BR mode in December?
It feels like grade school all over again, doesn't it? When a person tries to dispute something without proving their are right but want you to prove they are wrong....
It was actually a rhetorical question (massively did mention that the discussion about Apoc starts at around 35 minutes) and F2P, BR mode and December are all there. That's why I asked for a time stamp to where they contradict what this article says since he and the other cultist account were claiming lack of journalistic integrity without any specifics.
And torval is absolutely right in that this at the very least indicates a change in development schedule. How much (or little) this will impact the development of the core MMO we just don't know but I suspect that will be determined by just how much general interest they see for their Apoc mode.
I mean... it's not like most of us don't already know that Fortnite BR is just one mode of the now mostly neglected core Fortnite. It's perfectly reasonable to wonder if this will also be Ashe's fate.
It would have dramatically influenced my decision whether or not to "early adopt" or back the KS. I am interested in a studio that would build a true spiritual Lineage 1 successor. ArcheAge actually has a lot of that in it, Jake Song was a lead designer in both, and I saw a lot of that in early presentations for this game.
What I'm completely uninterested in is Battle Royale, or free for all survival pvp ala ARK, Conan Exiles, etc. If they would have been up front at the time and said, this is a possible direction we'll take the game, then I would have waited.
If they didn't know that it was a possible direction at the time, then it has zero place in the product they crowdfunded. I Kickstarted a specific game, not a game company.
So while they may still be on track to deliver the MMO they promised to try and make, I feel like that has now taken a back burner to the fluffy PR driven Battle Royale mode. It may not be true, but it's my perception and that is all that matters, because anything beyond that requires trust.
This is where the argument we've (specifically, the Harbinger folks, but some of us other users too) been having with supporters of these projects comes from.
The devs change the "game" substantially, then delay delay delay while continuing to rake in cash, and we pound our heads against the wall of the true believing backers who say "it's just software development, man!"
Followed by "it will "release" when its finished, but don't ask when that might happen, software development is hard."
Apparently so. Finding new ways to ask for cash? Shit easy.
Watch the video and judge for yourself the information and its validity. I see a lot of misinformation on all sides of the arguments but most of it is via second hand information and with no actual thoughts or research put into any of it. Truly disappointed at the writer of this article for their part in the misinformation and would hope that they fix this issue with some true journalistic integrity.
I'm not about to watch an hour and 30 minutes of that. Care to point us with time stamps to the part where he says they are not releasing Apocalypse as a F2P BR mode in December?
It feels like grade school all over again, doesn't it? When a person tries to dispute something without proving their are right but want you to prove they are wrong....
It was actually a rhetorical question (massively did mention that the discussion about Apoc starts at around 35 minutes) and F2P, BR mode and December are all there. That's why I asked for a time stamp to where they contradict what this article says since he and the other cultist account were claiming lack of journalistic integrity without any specifics.
And torval is absolutely right in that this at the very least indicates a change in development schedule. How much (or little) this will impact the development of the core MMO we just don't know but I suspect that will be determined by just how much general interest they see for their Apoc mode.
I mean... it's not like most of us don't already know that Fortnite BR is just one mode of the now mostly neglected core Fortnite. It's perfectly reasonable to wonder if this will also be Ashe's fate.
It would have dramatically influenced my decision whether or not to "early adopt" or back the KS. I am interested in a studio that would build a true spiritual Lineage 1 successor. ArcheAge actually has a lot of that in it, Jake Song was a lead designer in both, and I saw a lot of that in early presentations for this game.
What I'm completely uninterested in is Battle Royale, or free for all survival pvp ala ARK, Conan Exiles, etc. If they would have been up front at the time and said, this is a possible direction we'll take the game, then I would have waited.
If they didn't know that it was a possible direction at the time, then it has zero place in the product they crowdfunded. I Kickstarted a specific game, not a game company.
So while they may still be on track to deliver the MMO they promised to try and make, I feel like that has now taken a back burner to the fluffy PR driven Battle Royale mode. It may not be true, but it's my perception and that is all that matters, because anything beyond that requires trust.
This is where the argument we've (specifically, the Harbinger folks, but some of us other users too) been having with supporters of these projects comes from.
The devs change the "game" substantially, then delay delay delay while continuing to rake in cash, and we pound our heads against the wall of the true believing backers who say "it's just software development, man!"
So this can happen more easily in a fast and loose crowd-funded framework. The reality I've learned is that it can happen anywhere at any time with any GaaS.
Fortnite - Ask the PvE players if BR is what they bought into?
ESO - It was sold as a sub game, then as a B2P game with an optional sub. It's nothing like the sub game that launched. It's nothing like the B2P hybrid I bought. The massive cash shop and loot crate spam on login and everywhere in the game is crazy.
LotRO - Not the sub game I bought. Still a whale driven lootcrate fest. They even have 2 tiers of loot crates and keys. I'm paying a sub, why in the hell do I have to pay more to open a drop for a chance to get something good? WTF is that even about? That isn't the game I started playing.
Shroud - No single player mode after all.
Elite Dangerous - No single player mode - that is a promise that got dropped with a too bad soooo sad.
Indie Games - Several of these have died or moved to another publisher which is effectively the same thing.
"Games as a Service" could be a truly wonderful persistent perpetual experience. Instead is has devolved to an unacceptable state in nearly every case. That list is so long. In any case these guys aren't doing things any differently (better or worse) than their contemporaries. I don't call them out exclusively, but they're the focus of the thread. It's why I'm not playing MMOs much. I can only stomach so much of that before I just want to go escape to a real game world and let my imagination go.
I disliked the games as a service idea from the start because A) games are a product, not a service (and no amount of marketing hype phrases will change that), and just like microtransaction RNG in general, once the first game to utilize this sad marketing shtick finds that consumers aren't aware of what it translated to in practice (a hugely disappointing version or what gamers envisioned), everybody and their brother in the industry is going to wanna know how they can get their slice.
I know this will give them data but it worries me that they are doing this to see how it sticks as a standalone game. If it is popular I can easily see the MMO going to the back burner and possibly never releasing.
It might be the case. Would be similar to Fornite's case creating BR as an alternative to their World invading mode thing to finally bury it alive.
It's also the same case as H1Z1 and look how that one turned out. I think many of these companies are trying to compare themselves to Epic games and have a higher risk of failing. That is exactly what happened when the WoW clone craze began.
What Torval is saying is reminding me of the fall out from Bless. You keep messing players about like this and they think twice about kickstarter, pre-order anything to do with MMOs gets a big cynical question mark put over it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All of this is a solid reminder of why i stay the fuck away from any kickstarter mmorpg in development. Developers will feed you with a steady stream of bullshit but at the end of the day nothing that they end up delivering will be close to what they promised when they did the kickstarter.
I say this as a backer of games like poe2, dos2, bards tale 4 and wasteland 3. The difference is tha tthose are games and can never become games as a service.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Even if by some miracle, they manage to release the MMORPG without too much fuss, I am not at all happy about gameplay and feedback coming from BR gamers and mechanics. This is not the kind of MMORPG I invested in in the first place. Any data they pull from the BR is not likely to produce the kind of MMO I would enjoy. It's a fundamentally different design philosophy and gameplay experience.
If they really do stray, like so many kickstarters before them, I really hope they offer refunds.
Watch the video and judge for yourself the information and its validity. I see a lot of misinformation on all sides of the arguments but most of it is via second hand information and with no actual thoughts or research put into any of it. Truly disappointed at the writer of this article for their part in the misinformation and would hope that they fix this issue with some true journalistic integrity.
I'm not about to watch an hour and 30 minutes of that. Care to point us with time stamps to the part where he says they are not releasing Apocalypse as a F2P BR mode in December?
It feels like grade school all over again, doesn't it? When a person tries to dispute something without proving their are right but want you to prove they are wrong....
It was actually a rhetorical question (massively did mention that the discussion about Apoc starts at around 35 minutes) and F2P, BR mode and December are all there. That's why I asked for a time stamp to where they contradict what this article says since he and the other cultist account were claiming lack of journalistic integrity without any specifics.
And torval is absolutely right in that this at the very least indicates a change in development schedule. How much (or little) this will impact the development of the core MMO we just don't know but I suspect that will be determined by just how much general interest they see for their Apoc mode.
I mean... it's not like most of us don't already know that Fortnite BR is just one mode of the now mostly neglected core Fortnite. It's perfectly reasonable to wonder if this will also be Ashe's fate.
It would have dramatically influenced my decision whether or not to "early adopt" or back the KS. I am interested in a studio that would build a true spiritual Lineage 1 successor. ArcheAge actually has a lot of that in it, Jake Song was a lead designer in both, and I saw a lot of that in early presentations for this game.
What I'm completely uninterested in is Battle Royale, or free for all survival pvp ala ARK, Conan Exiles, etc. If they would have been up front at the time and said, this is a possible direction we'll take the game, then I would have waited.
If they didn't know that it was a possible direction at the time, then it has zero place in the product they crowdfunded. I Kickstarted a specific game, not a game company.
So while they may still be on track to deliver the MMO they promised to try and make, I feel like that has now taken a back burner to the fluffy PR driven Battle Royale mode. It may not be true, but it's my perception and that is all that matters, because anything beyond that requires trust.
This is where the argument we've (specifically, the Harbinger folks, but some of us other users too) been having with supporters of these projects comes from.
The devs change the "game" substantially, then delay delay delay while continuing to rake in cash, and we pound our heads against the wall of the true believing backers who say "it's just software development, man!"
Followed by "it will "release" when its finished, but don't ask when that might happen, software development is hard."
"you want it now or you want it perfect?"
They make it sound like if that's a real option. Can I have it now? No. Will it be perfect? Well, nothing can be perfect. This has turned into a digital age Zen Koan.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Pardon me if I chuckle a little here. I didn't back this because I am testing CF and if I learned anything it is that development is a long process. We had Hungerdome as a BR mode about one year after KS, a very similar timing to this BR. But it ended and closed and we moved on to SP (sieges) and then Big World (harvesting and crafting) all within another 6 months. We are now at the tail end of BW 5 and alpha will be v6.0 2 years after the initial BW. This is with no promised quest chains or PvE content beyond open world mobs and guards. I hope you testers enjoy your BR because it is all you will really have for quite a while.
I think that this is the reality behind the decision bringing you Apocalypse: that PvE content takes a large AAA team years. You have a large base of PvE players that want nothing to do with PvP or its BR or Arena pieces and that is going to cause a lot of unhappy carebears. You all are dreaming if you think the MMO will release in 2019 let alone 2020 if it to have solid and extensive PvE content as well as open world PvP and the node system integrated. Just sit back and enjoy the wait... For the PvP types that want more than a BR arena, CF will be where it is at.
I will play Ashes at release but my life is going to be too short to follow another development from KS to launch.
Comments
That said, the harbinger in me believes they gave the BR test mode it's own code name of Apocalypse in order to market it separately in the future as a F2P, stand alone mode with (perhaps) purchasable cosmetics, a la PUBG or Fortnite.
Sort of brilliant really, they'll get people playing this first, and since there will be rewards that can be earned in the BR which transfer to the main title, it could bring a horde of new gamers who are not currently backers to it at launch.
They might decide to keep it entirely F2P, and use it strictly as a drawing tool for new customers to the main game, if so then really no harm, no foul unless they try to turn it into a money maker.
I'll be pleasantly surprised if that's the case.
https://www.theaocdungeon.com/threads/ashes-of-creation-apocalypse-announced-31-10-full-stream-recap.307/
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And @torval is absolutely right in that this at the very least indicates a change in development schedule. How much (or little) this will impact the development of the core MMO we just don't know but I suspect that will be determined by just how much general interest they see for their Apoc mode.
I mean... it's not like most of us don't already know that Fortnite BR is just one mode of the now mostly neglected core Fortnite. It's perfectly reasonable to wonder if this will also be Ashe's fate.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The devs change the "game" substantially, then delay delay delay while continuing to rake in cash, and we pound our heads against the wall of the true believing backers who say "it's just software development, man!"
Stephen is trying to characterize Apocalypse as mostly a stress test and a kind of intro to the full Ashes experience.
But long before this in many posts I have made here I have expressed my view that BR games and MMORPGs are inherently very different types of games that appeal to very different demographics. One attracts the crowd that wants to invest little time in all the leveling and prep work required to become PvP ready in an MMORPG and just wants to jump into the fun immediately and the other crowd is there to enjoy the world with all of its leveling and prep work.
This game up to now has courted the 2nd crowd especially during their early reveals and KS campaign, and this BR for all Apoc mode will attract the much larger (going by the huge success of the many recent games that cater to them) other crowd.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
B - Put out a battle royal/castle siege mode with already developed content that may attract 100,000’s of players that will stay many months or even years
Id choose B, just saying. As long as I get character progression and customization, I think I’d rather have it this way.
but if you sell game A to people and then work on / deliver game B that is simply not right.
It comes back to my Golden Rules:
Say what you mean
Do what you say
Do it reasonably close to when you say you will do it
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If truly not possible or even desirable to deliver on these three tenants, offer full refunds to backers of the original vision.
They deserve the opportunity to withdraw from the field.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Do Not Want.
LF miners no xp rq.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I say this as a backer of games like poe2, dos2, bards tale 4 and wasteland 3. The difference is tha tthose are games and can never become games as a service.
If they really do stray, like so many kickstarters before them, I really hope they offer refunds.
They make it sound like if that's a real option. Can I have it now? No. Will it be perfect? Well, nothing can be perfect. This has turned into a digital age Zen Koan.
I think that this is the reality behind the decision bringing you Apocalypse: that PvE content takes a large AAA team years. You have a large base of PvE players that want nothing to do with PvP or its BR or Arena pieces and that is going to cause a lot of unhappy carebears. You all are dreaming if you think the MMO will release in 2019 let alone 2020 if it to have solid and extensive PvE content as well as open world PvP and the node system integrated. Just sit back and enjoy the wait... For the PvP types that want more than a BR arena, CF will be where it is at.
I will play Ashes at release but my life is going to be too short to follow another development from KS to launch.