See the thing about nostalgia is, it's always better as a memory not practice. Folks don't want the actual thing, they want the time and setting to return. Those types of feels are meant to be temporary in the present. Some of those features we remember were actually symptoms of technological limitation.
Good luck though.
Some yes and some no.
While some of those features might have been because the technology wasn't there, that doesn't mean that a few of those weren't enjoyed.
The problem here is assuming it's all nostalgia. It's rather close minded.
Looking at the games I play now, they are, for the most part all more "old school" in nature.
But part of it might be people being a product of their times. Sort of like music. Other than Classical music, I mostly listen to the music I enjoyed growing up. I rarely listen to anything coming out today because I just don't like it.
I imagine if I was exposed to the music of today as a teenager I'd probably enjoy it more.
Listing the things that people want from these "old school games" that they want to make come back is the key to understanding what people want.
long leveling times, working towards something, the need to seek allies to overcome obstacles, more interaction when creating/selling.
This has nothing to do with nostalgia (I should add "might") and everything to do with preference.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
See the thing about nostalgia is, it's always better as a memory not practice. Folks don't want the actual thing, they want the time and setting to return. Those types of feels are meant to be temporary in the present. Some of those features we remember were actually symptoms of technological limitation.
Good luck though.
Some yes and some no.
While some of those features might have been because the technology wasn't there, that doesn't mean that a few of those weren't enjoyed.
The problem here is assuming it's all nostalgia. It's rather close minded.
Looking at the games I play now, they are, for the most part all more "old school" in nature.
But part of it might be people being a product of their times. Sort of like music. Other than Classical music, I mostly listen to the music I enjoyed growing up. I rarely listen to anything coming out today because I just don't like it.
I imagine if I was exposed to the music of today as a teenager I'd probably enjoy it more.
Listing the things that people want from these "old school games" that they want to make come back is the key to understanding what people want.
long leveling times, working towards something, the need to seek allies to overcome obstacles, more interaction when creating/selling.
This has nothing to do with nostalgia and everything to do with preference.
Indeed but when you bundle those features in a dated package like Pantheon it makes it way more niche than people are willing to buy into and sustain. It's like remembering an old home that gave you good feels but purposely having the front door messed up on the remake because it was apart of the memory.
Long leveling times are fine unless levels are a hard gate to content. Seeking allies to overcome obstacles is fine but if that becomes a permanent content obstacle (due to population or timing) it's not. These are the types of things that were learned after the fact. I'm not saying the solution path devs took were correct but some of the things that use to work, did because of the timing/period.
The Model T is a classic vehicle, it's awesome to look at, sit inside of, and if possible take for a spin around the block. It doesn't belong in modern day traffic without the necessary modifications.
I totally get it though. I just wish devs of the older MMORPG games that people loved, allowed private servers with tweaks so the burden of making a new IP profitable doesn't prevent folks from enjoying their thing.
We can enjoy any music from any time period any time we want in it's original form as well as the re-mastered versions on our own time and dollar. The same can't be said about MMORPGs.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
oh it will come out. No question about that. The thing I am curious to see is the reaction from EQ1 fans when they see how much this game is not like EQ1
Current EQ1 or last century EQ1?
Probably will be something in between imo.
Before mercs, before guild lobby corpse summon, but not so far back as "stay for the 3 hour fear raid corpse recovery or lose all your stuff" eq.
Hey those long corpse recoveries were not that bad. When it was really bad is when your internet was dialup and had a tendency to go down a lot. Nothing like being on a raid and getting stuck in the middle of the zone when you net crashed and took the night off. Of course people were nice back then and when the next group was doing the raid they would message you when they got to your corpse and send a wizard down to get you. I worry more about the players not being like they were back then than the game not being like EQ enough. The players made the game in my opinion. As far as the game goes, I am sure it get released. When is the big question.
This has always been my biggest concern. When mmos came out, the communities were young(to online gaming, not age) and still helpful/friendly. Today most online communities are a cesspool of entitlement and pretentious immaturity. Today the best you would get is either someone yelling at you for "being lazy" and not getting your corpse. Or offering that revive for an outrageous amount of currency. Even better they might pretend to help. Only to slay you and take your shit as soon as you resurrect lol.
We can enjoy any music from any time period any time we want in it's original form as well as the re-mastered versions on our own time and dollar. The same can't be said about MMORPGs.
That was less about liking something from "another time" and liking things that are a part of the time you experience only to find that later things just aren't your taste.
So yeah, being a product of the times.
That's why I don't think a lot of younger people are going to flock to this game.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Well i feel we can differentiate music from gaming,Musicians don't need a huge budget or a budget at all,often times success is simply a voice or an acoustic guitar+voice/song writing skills.
If a song fails,what does it cost the musician,almost nothing,reputation perhaps?They can rebound and EASILY write another 500 songs if they wanted to. 99% of these studios cannot fail or they might very well shut down and not make another game.
Also music over the years although we see trends still has choice in EVERY single genre.I find gaming is full of bandwagon studios,we tend to see very similar games flooding the market,like these Stardew Valley crap 1985-1992 looking games. When a musician makes a song or a group makes one,they USUALLY have passion ,there isn't a huge cost barrier to making a quality song.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Well i feel we can differentiate music from gaming,Musicians don't need a huge budget or a budget at all,often times success is simply a voice or an acoustic guitar+voice/song writing skills.
If a song fails,what does it cost the musician,almost nothing,reputation perhaps?They can rebound and EASILY write another 500 songs if they wanted to. 99% of these studios cannot fail or they might very well shut down and not make another game.
Also music over the years although we see trends still has choice in EVERY single genre.I find gaming is full of bandwagon studios,we tend to see very similar games flooding the market,like these Stardew Valley crap 1985-1992 looking games. When a musician makes a song or a group makes one,they USUALLY have passion ,there isn't a huge cost barrier to making a quality song.
Again, just pointing out that my taste is x, y and z and part of this is possibly being a product of the times when talking about music I was first expose to.
Just like games, people are first exposed to this game or that game, etc. Whether they then like future games that have different features might be because of the games they were first exposed to.
Just a thought and pretty much ends there.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
With all these things though, I am still curious as to whether this can work in 2018 or not....The death of Pantheon may very well put an end to this style of MMO, or its success can create a whole new slew of them.
So many Oracles in this post..think they have figured it all out.. Cant wait for the game to be released- just so I can invite you over for tea and a good piece of humble pie!
I can't wait for release either, because after this failure Ol' Cokey will be done in this business.
Funny, since people seem to still enjoy EQ with severely dated graphics and mechanics. How many MMOs do you know of that have been around for 20 years with over 20 expansions? None! So let's drop the "I know it's going to fail" routine simply because you don't like the concept.
Where's all these mythical "old schoolers" who should currently be filling EQ/DAOC/UO over the brim since there's so many of you, while waiting for something new? Nowhere. Flapping their virtual gums on forums about how they want "old school" while games with features you supposedly want are flopping zombies hanging from frayed, withered ropes. Those people who "seem to still enjoy EQ" after 20 years have BEEN THERE for 20 years. Most are just too afraid to cut their investments of time and money, like some are even there simply because their PC's were made in 1999 and can't run anything better ( Anarchy Online is still alive for this very reason, most still playing it are still playing on the pc's they started the game on back in 2001 ). If all fo these "old schoolers" were really such a sizeable and profitable bunch, someone more credible than Ol' Cokey would have jumped in on it successfully by now.
No one's going to answer that @OG_Zorvan. I've been asking the same for quite some time. Even if they managed to strip EQ1, EQ2 and P99 bare, I'm unsure if VR would have enough people to pay the bills. What would happen to EQ1, EQ2, P99? No customers, they'd have to close down. At some point, VR has got to step out from behind the 'old school players' and capture some players from other games. How they accomplish that task is ultimately what may make or break Pantheon.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Where's all these mythical "old schoolers" who should currently be filling EQ/DAOC/UO over the brim since there's so many of you, while waiting for something new?
I think most are waiting on a game that has the features they want. EQ had those features but it was radically changed over time.
Besides that, they are waiting to play Pantheon because of what IT offers, not just a copy and paste of EQ.
The phrase is "spiritual successor," not "clone."
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Where's all these mythical "old schoolers" who should currently be filling EQ/DAOC/UO over the brim since there's so many of you, while waiting for something new? Nowhere.
Why should we be doing anything? I diligently played Vanguard up to the closure. That was as old school as I wanted for a pve game. And now it doesn't really exist in a form that's playable. the private server is laggy for me.
I have to be playing Everquest (which I found dorky at the time) Dark Age of Camelot (never understood it's skills) or Ultima (which graphically is way too old for me), in order to want a "world" experience?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
They have the visual fidelity to catch the eye-candy crowd. They have some features that will definitely be polarizing. Really the big thing now is how the combat turns out.
If the core gameplay loop of combat is well-done many people will be able to overlook some of the things they perceive as warts (FFXIV is a good example of this; not because of the combat but in spite of it). We'll see how that part of it turns out.
@OG_Zorvan I do exist, I loved EQ and EQ2, even Rift. But those games have been "improved" in ways that I just don't like. Played P99 for a while, but the magic is not there either. So I am waiting patiently for Pantheon.
BTW, I have an excellent up to date PC, three in fact. Not playing games on them though because I loathe PvP and action combat.
As for numbers, I could get three maybe four family members online tomorrow if there was a suitable game. I believe that I could get at leat another dozen old guildies back on line too. That's sixteen, not far off a raid force.
It is not some big mystery, the players are everywhere. Some stopped playing mmos entirely until one of interest arrives, others hang out in museums (private servers like P99 etc) some play progression servers. Most are likely like me - hopping from MMO to MMO killing time, there is no modern mmo i havent played, i have also been on the various private servers too. There is no game that works for me more long term at the moment but they at least serve a distraction while something more substantial than glorified lobby games and cash shop focused games finally turns up
During the devs nostalgic past there was no other option for social online gaming, it was mmorpgs. Sure lobby based shooters existed but nothing persistent. McQuaid and gangs past games, stripped of nostalgia, were the first on the scene and not all that great. Vanguard was ok but mired in poor management and not knowing what the consumer wanted.
Sadly the consumer wanted non RPG MMO's. People liked specific aspects of mmorpgs but piling on everything made all those minigame aspects suck together. No one stepped back and saw the forest, instead focused on the tree in front of them, mmorpgs.
Quest hub games became games like farcry. People like them and dont need to deal with endgames, raids, or hordes of people camping spawns. PVP'ers got mobas, no longer required to progress to be on the same level as others, no longer tied to pve balance.
MMORPG market is a capacity. Those who love it as a whole play wow/eso/gw2/ffxiv and those games were made during peak mmorpg investment, meaning theyll be higher end games than any crowd funded game cobbled together by starving devs. Im sure this game might launch but its not going to have polish and AAA quality, and it will meander in what will be a perma beta state.
I dont see the point of these crowd funded mmorpgs. they are made by people lost in the past, and it was a past that was glorious only when the entire gaming community had a few options to satisfy their craving for online interactions. Online interactions are no longer new and fresh, people are sick of the social aspect, and can get it on any medium now. People want high quality game that does its niche well. MMORPGS have too many niches stitched together to do well without hundreds of millions of dollars and tons of time.
These crowd funded nostalgia attempts would be better off focusing on one thing...why didnt mcquaid make a monster hunter type raid based game instead? Would have been done by now and probably a hit...instead wasting a decade and tons of money making a mess of a mmorpg.
Most game studios learned and dont make mmorpgs for this reason.
Only a delusional person would think it wont release, people who hope that the things they don't like will never come to pass simply because they don't approve of it.
This game is gonna be awesome for those that like the Pantheon's specific game design. For those that like a more action orientated game will probably not like it. But they have a vision and they're not changing from it. Honestly there's very few companies out there that can say that.
Some people just want to hate. They are so afraid that their hopes and dreams will be shattered that they either self-destruct their own or never bother to formulate them.
This is the real life zombie.
So what if the game doesn't come out? It also could and could be very fun. Each foot step you take is in the moment and leads you into the future. The future isn't an entity itself but a construct of each current moment.
You know what the developers are doing? They are taking the steps required to make something FOR the future. You just nurture self-doubt.
I played EQ from launch in '99 through '06 or '07 ( with 2 of my kids), then moved to EVE Online 'til '13. I now tough it out playing GW2 (don't even get me started on that) with my kids who no longer live at home (yeah we've got a family guild of 7, I get to yell at the kids almost daily (some things never change)) They never even tried EVE, "It's too hard" - well Boo Frickin' Hoo, you little whiners. I also tried about a dozen other titles over that span, but nothing did it for me like EQ. Perhaps you just can't go back...
I do play on P99, and no, it's not even close to the same.
BTW, the original EQ took about 3 years to develop for release if I'm remembering correctly. I'd never heard of it until my daughter said "I want to play this". I figured what the heck, if I can avoid being eaten by a Grue, I can figure this Everquest thing out.
Yes, Pantheon will launch, and I really want it to capture the original feel of EQ. I don't want to be told where to go, or what to do, We'll figure it out eventually, talk to a butt load of npc's, and die horrible deaths, numerous times, trying to figure out just where to go and what to do. I hope. I relish the prospects.
Will it "succeed" , IDK.
EQ peaked at something over half million subscribers, and they had a couple dozen servers (more or less) at the peak. That's not huge by today's standards, but it paid the bills. When it launches, and if it can recoup development costs, it won't take anywhere near 500k subscribers to keep it up and running. If they can get 5-10% of the "old schoolers" to subscribe (and I will) and stay, as well as some folks that are just curious, I think they'll make a go of it.
I'd like to think that at some site, perhaps Pantheon's, folks will gather from EQ and give it a shot, and some of the old guilds will reform and the old names will show up.
I plan on playing, and I'll give it a year to see how it goes, to help it succeed. But I'd better not see any little yellow ???s anywhere.
Regardless its going to be group focused with a PvP flair, two things the 'modern' MMO crowd isnt all that into. it will be niche at best and will more than likely flounder around for awhile and eventually disappear. Unless by some miracle of miracles they can develop content fast enough to keep their fanbase engaged, and if they do that theyll be the first company to ever do it.
Well I am sure they will have a PvP server at release but you do know this is otherwise a PvE game.
Thats why I said 'flair'. I mean theyre claiming its going to be a 'sand box' game. The catch all definition everyone was excited over years ago when they first announced this thing. So to be 'sand box' it has to have PvP in it somewhere.
You are mistaken. Sandbox does not imply pvp.
-------------------------------------------
The 2 major themas are sandbox vs themepark. Sandbox means players choose where to go by themselves. Themepark means the devs give direction to where to go using high reward quests and sometimes rift type events.
-----------------------------------------
PVP can also be either sandbox as in open world pvp, or it can be themepark as in instanced team v team battle zones.
As someone who has put more money into this game than any other... So much so that I had to use part of tax return because I really don't have the money to be splurging as I did on this game. I can promise you that this game will release. Because of the money I put in I pay attention to everything that is said and shown and this game has made more improvements than any other crowdfunded MMO that I have also been watching. It really does move by leaps and bounds and I can not wait to get into Alpha and start playing.
As for what they need to do to be successful not alot. Brad has said on the Pantheon forums they only need 10k-20k subs to stay afloat once the game launches.
100% sure it will be released. Visionary Realms better make sure it's in VERY good shape beforehand. It has a long way to go. So far we had only seen a few test zones and seems like their balancing everything now. The making of the world when they get on a roll may be the easy part, I don't know I've never made a game before.
To make a big impact, it better be in VERY good shape EVEN BEFORE they let the paid Alpha testers in.
As someone who has put more money into this game than any other... So much so that I had to use part of tax return because I really don't have the money to be splurging as I did on this game. I can promise you that this game will release. Because of the money I put in I pay attention to everything that is said and shown and this game has made more improvements than any other crowdfunded MMO that I have also been watching. It really does move by leaps and bounds and I can not wait to get into Alpha and start playing.
As for what they need to do to be successful not alot. Brad has said on the Pantheon forums they only need 10k-20k subs to stay afloat once the game launches.
I'm a CU backer, and that's about it, and I absolutely agree that Pantheon (with Crowfall as a close runner up) has made the most progress to get to their release.
Everything I've seen from streams looks good.
I'm an RvR player, but if I liked more meaningful, difficult PvE that required socializing and teamwork, Pantheon would be my bag for sure.
Comments
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Long leveling times are fine unless levels are a hard gate to content. Seeking allies to overcome obstacles is fine but if that becomes a permanent content obstacle (due to population or timing) it's not. These are the types of things that were learned after the fact. I'm not saying the solution path devs took were correct but some of the things that use to work, did because of the timing/period.
The Model T is a classic vehicle, it's awesome to look at, sit inside of, and if possible take for a spin around the block. It doesn't belong in modern day traffic without the necessary modifications.
I totally get it though. I just wish devs of the older MMORPG games that people loved, allowed private servers with tweaks so the burden of making a new IP profitable doesn't prevent folks from enjoying their thing.
We can enjoy any music from any time period any time we want in it's original form as well as the re-mastered versions on our own time and dollar. The same can't be said about MMORPGs.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If a song fails,what does it cost the musician,almost nothing,reputation perhaps?They can rebound and EASILY write another 500 songs if they wanted to.
99% of these studios cannot fail or they might very well shut down and not make another game.
Also music over the years although we see trends still has choice in EVERY single genre.I find gaming is full of bandwagon studios,we tend to see very similar games flooding the market,like these Stardew Valley crap 1985-1992 looking games.
When a musician makes a song or a group makes one,they USUALLY have passion ,there isn't a huge cost barrier to making a quality song.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Besides that, they are waiting to play Pantheon because of what IT offers, not just a copy and paste of EQ.
The phrase is "spiritual successor," not "clone."
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If the core gameplay loop of combat is well-done many people will be able to overlook some of the things they perceive as warts (FFXIV is a good example of this; not because of the combat but in spite of it). We'll see how that part of it turns out.
BTW, I have an excellent up to date PC, three in fact. Not playing games on them though because I loathe PvP and action combat.
As for numbers, I could get three maybe four family members online tomorrow if there was a suitable game. I believe that I could get at leat another dozen old guildies back on line too. That's sixteen, not far off a raid force.
But hey, it's nice to know that I don't exist.
Sadly the consumer wanted non RPG MMO's. People liked specific aspects of mmorpgs but piling on everything made all those minigame aspects suck together. No one stepped back and saw the forest, instead focused on the tree in front of them, mmorpgs.
Quest hub games became games like farcry. People like them and dont need to deal with endgames, raids, or hordes of people camping spawns. PVP'ers got mobas, no longer required to progress to be on the same level as others, no longer tied to pve balance.
MMORPG market is a capacity. Those who love it as a whole play wow/eso/gw2/ffxiv and those games were made during peak mmorpg investment, meaning theyll be higher end games than any crowd funded game cobbled together by starving devs. Im sure this game might launch but its not going to have polish and AAA quality, and it will meander in what will be a perma beta state.
I dont see the point of these crowd funded mmorpgs. they are made by people lost in the past, and it was a past that was glorious only when the entire gaming community had a few options to satisfy their craving for online interactions. Online interactions are no longer new and fresh, people are sick of the social aspect, and can get it on any medium now. People want high quality game that does its niche well. MMORPGS have too many niches stitched together to do well without hundreds of millions of dollars and tons of time.
These crowd funded nostalgia attempts would be better off focusing on one thing...why didnt mcquaid make a monster hunter type raid based game instead? Would have been done by now and probably a hit...instead wasting a decade and tons of money making a mess of a mmorpg.
Most game studios learned and dont make mmorpgs for this reason.
This game is gonna be awesome for those that like the Pantheon's specific game design. For those that like a more action orientated game will probably not like it. But they have a vision and they're not changing from it. Honestly there's very few companies out there that can say that.
This guy obviously has a giant chip on his shoulder and is the literal definition of butt hurt.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
This is the real life zombie.
So what if the game doesn't come out? It also could and could be very fun. Each foot step you take is in the moment and leads you into the future. The future isn't an entity itself but a construct of each current moment.
You know what the developers are doing? They are taking the steps required to make something FOR the future. You just nurture self-doubt.
You stay sassy!
To make a big impact, it better be in VERY good shape EVEN BEFORE they let the paid Alpha testers in.