As much as I dislike @Albatroes and I disagree with him very often on these forums. I agree with his comment "MMORPGs today really are just single player games with optional co-op." He is 100% correct, today's MMORPGS are terrible games because of this. MMORPGS are games were Community matters and you cannot have community if you can do everything in the game yourself and you are the single player hero. This works in single player games but not MMORPGS. While Again I agree with you that yea forcing certain things like OW PVP with Full Looting is very bad. Forcing people to group up and use teamwork to overcome challenges is not BAD. Its truly again about Balance. This is why World of Warcraft in the first 4 years was so good. It was balanced. Yes you could solo level, but to progress and learn how to play your character you needed to group up. This is what creates community is you being forced to make friends and do content with other people.
MMORPGS need to have a balance between grouping and solo content. You need to be able to come on for 30 minutes and just kill shit 1 night and then next time you need to be able to get on with friends and run a dungeon. You need to work together to maximize getting resources for your crafting, maybe you go into a very dangerous area where you need a friend to kill monsters around you while you mine. Maybe you need to work with a group of friends to fine the right spot to put an extractor down to get the right minerals for your weapon that you are crafting a pattern for.
Dont forget the PVPers who thought they would PVP by running into their house and hiding then coming out and attacking you. There were so many of these guys it was unreal. Now there was some really good PVPers in UO. A good friend of mine and his real life friend were 2. they would just fight reds and all day long. They also would kill the alts of these reds.
Hell yea, the good ol' days. I was in DDJ on Catskills and we would dress in our "peasant" gear starter clothes and hang out on the roads near Britannia where reds would gank people. We would have deadly poisoned katanas, which would take you down pretty fast, especially if you were not expecting it.
Was lol-fun to kill those guys thinking they were getting an easy gank in.
What was yourt name on Catskills? I played on Catskills as well as Lake Austin. Gavin was my name he was 6x GM swords with Lumberjacking so I could kill mages. My good friend who was always Red because he use to kill Perma Red's alts in Fel lol he would camp their houses to kill their mules. His name was Pathos. And Also his friend was Wrexsoul. I remember doing the Champ spawns where people would ask me to help attack the reds. I was like hell no those reds are my friends. If you dont attack them they will not attac you. Also group up with me and they will protect you. My friends wouldnt attack anyone I was grouped with. Its was fun having friends who would be good PVPers and would attack anyone attacking me.
I have already stated it several times over different threads,there is absolutely 100% NO NEED to force one way or another and FFXI PROVED it.You can create a game that is 99% predominantly grouping but still cater to a smaller soloing crowd.I can't sit here and describe code for code,system for system,would take pages,game design is not two paragraphs.I just KNOW it worked in FFXI so it can work in any mmorpg IF the developer designs it all properly.
Beastmaster class,Summoner class and simply allowing players to combine classes does not stray from a CLASS or role play system,it merely opens up options as it should.This creates a VERY long lasting sense of accomplishment because you are always giving your character more and more options.
Example,maybe one day you want to go out and solo farm,so you change from a group setup of maybe healer/nuker/CC to maybe a DD with a bit of healing to keep you farming non stop.
Don't feel like grouping one day,well grab your Beastmaster class and go out and tame the same mobs you normally fight and get one to fight for/with you.
I'll use one simple example of why it works.A full group has all the fixens,buffs,debuffs,healing ,tank so it works like a fine oiled machine,FAST xp,fast kills.The solo Beastmaster has to take risks will be much slower,less xp,fewer kills and doesn't have all the support a group has but can get the same job done as a soloer.
You offer BONUSES to chain killing,again this encourages grouping but does NOT enforce a MUST.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I have already stated it several times over different threads,there is absolutely 100% NO NEED to force one way or another and FFXI PROVED it.You can create a game that is 99% predominantly grouping but still cater to a smaller soloing crowd.I can't sit here and describe code for code,system for system,would take pages,game design is not two paragraphs.I just KNOW it worked in FFXI so it can work in any mmorpg IF the developer designs it all properly.
Beastmaster class,Summoner class and simply allowing players to combine classes does not stray from a CLASS or role play system,it merely opens up options as it should.This creates a VERY long lasting sense of accomplishment because you are always giving your character more and more options.
Example,maybe one day you want to go out and solo farm,so you change from a group setup of maybe healer/nuker/CC to maybe a DD with a bit of healing to keep you farming non stop.
Don't feel like grouping one day,well grab your Beastmaster class and go out and tame the same mobs you normally fight and get one to fight for/with you.
I'll use one simple example of why it works.A full group has all the fixens,buffs,debuffs,healing ,tank so it works like a fine oiled machine,FAST xp,fast kills.The solo Beastmaster has to take risks will be much slower,less xp,fewer kills and doesn't have all the support a group has but can get the same job done as a soloer.
You offer BONUSES to chain killing,again this encourages grouping but does NOT enforce a MUST.
Yup. That is the spirit of eq and completely viable game design that would work today, not this forced grouping "pen n paper" type of game (You figure out which I refer to).
"Retro is whats HOT right. The Xers are CRAZY for the sh**y mechanics and gameplay that are the reason they quit these games in the first place." No. They aren't. Do these people not realize that EVERQUEST IS STILL RUNNING? So is EQ2. So is Ultima Online. So is DAOC. CoH/CoV, sadly, are not, which are the only ones really worth playing. But otherwise, if I want retro gaming, I can log back into my old characters.
@WargfootYV You are right, the pk is already fullon. Got killed 2 times on my miner and once on my adventurer today and another attempt where I got away. This is lining up to be a gankbox.
It's like the people on this forum have been playing these kinds of games for 20 years. Oh, by the way, you were having fun getting murdered and just didn't realize it.
I lol'd at the 'Protector' video on the website. The idea that some law and order would be introduced by the players made me nearly wet my pants with laughter. It is as if the developers are totally unaware of how people actually play these games.
Let's say you actually convince a group of your friends to gear up and watch your back while you try to get a couple of ingots of ore (I know I love spending hours watching other people mine - How could anyone turn down that gaming experience?). That could be rewarding if PKs showed up but what the developers don't account for is the neutral low level miner working next to you who is a spy. As soon as your protection gets bored and logs out he'll call in his PK buddies - in short, there is no reason for the PKs to ever take a risk unless they're sure you're not guarded.
It is crazy simple to circumvent any player attempt to police the game.
Open world PvP with full loot is a code phrase for "I want to be able to gank people who have no hope of protecting themselves". You know it means that because every other type of PvP is readily available in 100 other titles. These aren't people excited by area PvP or guild PvP or faction PvP - the only thing they cannot do in these other games is kill an unarmed noob, hence the need to put a pretty phrase to it.
That said, I hope the game does well and that people enjoy it. Maybe there are noobs out there who like to work hours to get resources only to get murdered and looted. Not my cup of tea.
It's 2018, people don't wanna lose every single piece of gear they worked for. And the older folks who wanna relive the UO experience won't play enough to have an effect on the player base, so it's guaranteed to be a dead game before release.
Except for the fact there will be custom servers with custom rule sets. I don't understand why so many people are willfully ignoring that very explicitly stated fact. It's clear to me, and should be clear to everyone following this game, that people who don't want full loot PvP will have other options.
The article was celebrating the "Open World Gank An Unarmed Noob PvP" and making it look as if that is what people missed most about old school MMORPGs. In fact, the idea that is what most people miss about old games will be proven wrong when 90% of the players of this title are on 'no ganking' servers.
I strongly suspect the game itself and how the servers fall out is going to end up proving the author is wrong.
I agree with you that either the developers are stupid or they just dont care. I lean towards they know what they are doing they just dont care because its the game they want. Thats fair enough but they will not make much of a profit if at all on this game. That does not mean WO PVP with full loot cant work in some respect. For example if they did what UO did put in a Fel and Tram like UO has then put insurance on items and stuff yea they could make a good system. The guys who do not want to engage in PVP will stay in Tram like they did in UO. Then there will be players like me that will PVP when I want too bring a few friends to make sure we win.
The problem with this game is they are putting the best location for mats in PVP areas and saying to crafters let us gank you. Thats not a good combo. Also they could have did what SWG did with the flagging system or what Ashes of creation is doing where when you kill someone you only get a small percent of their loot plus the more you gank the less stats you have meaning you will get killed easier and all your shit stolen. Problem is this developer does not care.
I agree with you that either the developers are stupid or they just dont care. I lean towards they know what they are doing they just dont care because its the game they want. Thats fair enough but they will not make much of a profit if at all on this game. That does not mean WO PVP with full loot cant work in some respect. For example if they did what UO did put in a Fel and Tram like UO has then put insurance on items and stuff yea they could make a good system. The guys who do not want to engage in PVP will stay in Tram like they did in UO. Then there will be players like me that will PVP when I want too bring a few friends to make sure we win.
The problem with this game is they are putting the best location for mats in PVP areas and saying to crafters let us gank you. Thats not a good combo. Also they could have did what SWG did with the flagging system or what Ashes of creation is doing where when you kill someone you only get a small percent of their loot plus the more you gank the less stats you have meaning you will get killed easier and all your shit stolen. Problem is this developer does not care.
I wouldn't claim the developer doesn't care and it seems to me (with no development experience) that the fix for this problem is simply giving the players tools to counter the PK threat. Looking back at UO, IMHO, there was no need for Trammel.
I'd of tried these ideas before trying Trammel:
1: Murderers cannot use recall or gates. Reason: This makes a PK 'regional' instead of being able to plague every single noob zone on a map in mere minutes. It also makes escape quite a bit more difficult. You could form a posse quickly and know the PK was still in the area.
2: Tracking: Tracking should work to locate nearby PKs. It should allow players to form a posse and track the murderer (who, as you've seen in #1, cannot gate out).
3: Limited Character Slots: If you have a murderer he's the only playable character on that server until he's cleared his murder count. This stops the nonsense of passing loot off to neutral characters on the same account, which is bullshit. (If you want to pay for two accounts, fine.)
It just seems to me that a world with full open world PvP could be fun IF there were counters to the PK threat that actually made it challenging without it being boring to play. I'd like to a game mechanic such that a group of PKs might elect to ride past a lone miner as killing him isn't worth the effort or blowback.
Community servers will go a long ways to helping with the pk issue. This is what I do not get from folks. They advertise the game as sandbox with full loot pvp then people buy the game and then same people complain about miners being ganked. What the hell were you expecting? People to be decent in this type of environment?
That said once community servers offering pve only or limited looting the official servers will be a ghost town of gankers who will then scream that the game is failing and it is all the developers fault for allowing community servers then they will blame players for not having a spine blah blah blah. Wolves only can eat the same sheep before there are no sheep remaining.
Feel like I have seen this movie before.........
Right.
When the game servers that feature open world PvP end up being ghost towns it will be because the developer didn't do it correctly. Never once does it occur to these people that nobody like to work for hours to be your loot box.
What needs to happen is that a developer needs to create a game with convincing AI. Dress all the AI players up in pink rabbit suits and have the 'rabbits' mine ore all day or attempt to craft or hunt in the wild. The PK crowd can kill the 'rabbits' and the 'rabbits' will write messages on forums complaining, or beg for their loot back in game, and the PK crowd will get the high they seek from a game (OMG, IT IS LIKE OLD SKWELL UO!) and the rest of us can go build communities elsewhere.
@WargfootYV You are right, the pk is already fullon. Got killed 2 times on my miner and once on my adventurer today and another attempt where I got away. This is lining up to be a gankbox.
It's like the people on this forum have been playing these kinds of games for 20 years. Oh, by the way, you were having fun getting murdered and just didn't realize it.
I lol'd at the 'Protector' video on the website. The idea that some law and order would be introduced by the players made me nearly wet my pants with laughter. It is as if the developers are totally unaware of how people actually play these games.
Let's say you actually convince a group of your friends to gear up and watch your back while you try to get a couple of ingots of ore (I know I love spending hours watching other people mine - How could anyone turn down that gaming experience?). That could be rewarding if PKs showed up but what the developers don't account for is the neutral low level miner working next to you who is a spy. As soon as your protection gets bored and logs out he'll call in his PK buddies - in short, there is no reason for the PKs to ever take a risk unless they're sure you're not guarded.
It is crazy simple to circumvent any player attempt to police the game.
Open world PvP with full loot is a code phrase for "I want to be able to gank people who have no hope of protecting themselves". You know it means that because every other type of PvP is readily available in 100 other titles. These aren't people excited by area PvP or guild PvP or faction PvP - the only thing they cannot do in these other games is kill an unarmed noob, hence the need to put a pretty phrase to it.
That said, I hope the game does well and that people enjoy it. Maybe there are noobs out there who like to work hours to get resources only to get murdered and looted. Not my cup of tea.
Yeah you are right, already moved on. PoE league starting in 3 hours, so I will go there. Did I waste 30$ on LoA ? maybe, but in the future there will be different ruleset shards (the original name "Shards Online" and idea of that game is not dead), and apart from the ganking I was actually enjoying both crafting, housing and the co-op part of adventuring.
Yeah you are right, already moved on. PoE league starting in 3 hours, so I will go there. Did I waste 30$ on LoA ? maybe, but in the future there will be different ruleset shards (the original name "Shards Online" and idea of that game is not dead), and apart from the ganking I was actually enjoying both crafting, housing and the co-op part of adventuring.
I think 'waste' is too strong of a word. You tried it out, didn't care for it, and moved on - which happens often in gaming. Once the PVE servers are up you may like it.
I remember a twitter post the devs made about having more viewers on twitch than guildwars 2. lol I don't know how that could be something to celebrate, but yea was funny read.
So the majority of potential players, who have proven time after time that they hate full loot PvP in MMO's, have two options: 1) Play on the official server with a bunch of psychopaths who want to make your life miserable (Effective karma system? Sure, sure.) or 2) Play on a private server that may close at any time. Yay.
I'm of a "certain age", but I don't buy into the whole nostalgia thing that the industry is keen on these days. I love the new so much more. It's like saying that those who are of a "certain age" want flip phones back. Not me...give me the latest and greatest smart phone and I'm a happy camper.
I'll probably dabble in LoA, but that's about it.
"I love the new so much more"
Really? I'd like to know what MMOs you play, because I'm an old fart and think everything nowadays is crap. People (myself included) are excited for a version of WoW that's 14 years old and hands down better than today's. That tells a lot.
And the other 2 big mmos (FFXIV and ESO) are just present day WoW with different flavors.
As the mmorpg genre gets closer to death (even this website had to adapt and cover other genres), or worse, go full mobile, I simply don't understand when people say they prefer how it is now.
The old MMOs you liked weren't nearly as good as you remember them to be.
Maybe not. But they are still better than today's.
I'm of a "certain age", but I don't buy into the whole nostalgia thing that the industry is keen on these days. I love the new so much more. It's like saying that those who are of a "certain age" want flip phones back. Not me...give me the latest and greatest smart phone and I'm a happy camper.
I'll probably dabble in LoA, but that's about it.
"I love the new so much more"
Really? I'd like to know what MMOs you play, because I'm an old fart and think everything nowadays is crap. People (myself included) are excited for a version of WoW that's 14 years old and hands down better than today's. That tells a lot.
And the other 2 big mmos (FFXIV and ESO) are just present day WoW with different flavors.
As the mmorpg genre gets closer to death (even this website had to adapt and cover other genres), or worse, go full mobile, I simply don't understand when people say they prefer how it is now.
The old MMOs you liked weren't nearly as good as you remember them to be.
Rude awakening incoming
If I awake to the fact I prefer WoW with homogenized classes with 4 or 5 abilities, no freedom and no challenge, I stop playing mmos altogether.
You guys fail to understand the genre is dying because of dumbed down games. If there is still an audience for old school mmos (or mmos in general) is something to be seen, but just the fact older games are being released shows how bad the current state is.
That's why I don't understand naysayers. What are the great games you are playing?
Well shit ... and I was going to try it today, lol.
Lol me too. I took as a sign; bye bye then.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Comments
As much as I dislike @Albatroes and I disagree with him very often on these forums. I agree with his comment "MMORPGs today really are just single player games with optional co-op." He is 100% correct, today's MMORPGS are terrible games because of this. MMORPGS are games were Community matters and you cannot have community if you can do everything in the game yourself and you are the single player hero. This works in single player games but not MMORPGS. While Again I agree with you that yea forcing certain things like OW PVP with Full Looting is very bad. Forcing people to group up and use teamwork to overcome challenges is not BAD. Its truly again about Balance. This is why World of Warcraft in the first 4 years was so good. It was balanced. Yes you could solo level, but to progress and learn how to play your character you needed to group up. This is what creates community is you being forced to make friends and do content with other people.
MMORPGS need to have a balance between grouping and solo content. You need to be able to come on for 30 minutes and just kill shit 1 night and then next time you need to be able to get on with friends and run a dungeon. You need to work together to maximize getting resources for your crafting, maybe you go into a very dangerous area where you need a friend to kill monsters around you while you mine. Maybe you need to work with a group of friends to fine the right spot to put an extractor down to get the right minerals for your weapon that you are crafting a pattern for.
Beastmaster class,Summoner class and simply allowing players to combine classes does not stray from a CLASS or role play system,it merely opens up options as it should.This creates a VERY long lasting sense of accomplishment because you are always giving your character more and more options.
Example,maybe one day you want to go out and solo farm,so you change from a group setup of maybe healer/nuker/CC to maybe a DD with a bit of healing to keep you farming non stop.
Don't feel like grouping one day,well grab your Beastmaster class and go out and tame the same mobs you normally fight and get one to fight for/with you.
I'll use one simple example of why it works.A full group has all the fixens,buffs,debuffs,healing ,tank so it works like a fine oiled machine,FAST xp,fast kills.The solo Beastmaster has to take risks will be much slower,less xp,fewer kills and doesn't have all the support a group has but can get the same job done as a soloer.
You offer BONUSES to chain killing,again this encourages grouping but does NOT enforce a MUST.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
No. They aren't. Do these people not realize that EVERQUEST IS STILL RUNNING? So is EQ2. So is Ultima Online. So is DAOC. CoH/CoV, sadly, are not, which are the only ones really worth playing. But otherwise, if I want retro gaming, I can log back into my old characters.
Oh, by the way, you were having fun getting murdered and just didn't realize it.
I lol'd at the 'Protector' video on the website. The idea that some law and order would be introduced by the players made me nearly wet my pants with laughter. It is as if the developers are totally unaware of how people actually play these games.
Let's say you actually convince a group of your friends to gear up and watch your back while you try to get a couple of ingots of ore (I know I love spending hours watching other people mine - How could anyone turn down that gaming experience?). That could be rewarding if PKs showed up but what the developers don't account for is the neutral low level miner working next to you who is a spy. As soon as your protection gets bored and logs out he'll call in his PK buddies - in short, there is no reason for the PKs to ever take a risk unless they're sure you're not guarded.
It is crazy simple to circumvent any player attempt to police the game.
Open world PvP with full loot is a code phrase for "I want to be able to gank people who have no hope of protecting themselves". You know it means that because every other type of PvP is readily available in 100 other titles. These aren't people excited by area PvP or guild PvP or faction PvP - the only thing they cannot do in these other games is kill an unarmed noob, hence the need to put a pretty phrase to it.
That said, I hope the game does well and that people enjoy it.
Maybe there are noobs out there who like to work hours to get resources only to get murdered and looted.
Not my cup of tea.
I strongly suspect the game itself and how the servers fall out is going to end up proving the author is wrong.
I agree with you that either the developers are stupid or they just dont care. I lean towards they know what they are doing they just dont care because its the game they want. Thats fair enough but they will not make much of a profit if at all on this game. That does not mean WO PVP with full loot cant work in some respect. For example if they did what UO did put in a Fel and Tram like UO has then put insurance on items and stuff yea they could make a good system. The guys who do not want to engage in PVP will stay in Tram like they did in UO. Then there will be players like me that will PVP when I want too bring a few friends to make sure we win.
The problem with this game is they are putting the best location for mats in PVP areas and saying to crafters let us gank you. Thats not a good combo. Also they could have did what SWG did with the flagging system or what Ashes of creation is doing where when you kill someone you only get a small percent of their loot plus the more you gank the less stats you have meaning you will get killed easier and all your shit stolen. Problem is this developer does not care.
I'd of tried these ideas before trying Trammel:
1: Murderers cannot use recall or gates. Reason: This makes a PK 'regional' instead of being able to plague every single noob zone on a map in mere minutes. It also makes escape quite a bit more difficult. You could form a posse quickly and know the PK was still in the area.
2: Tracking: Tracking should work to locate nearby PKs. It should allow players to form a posse and track the murderer (who, as you've seen in #1, cannot gate out).
3: Limited Character Slots: If you have a murderer he's the only playable character on that server until he's cleared his murder count. This stops the nonsense of passing loot off to neutral characters on the same account, which is bullshit. (If you want to pay for two accounts, fine.)
It just seems to me that a world with full open world PvP could be fun IF there were counters to the PK threat that actually made it challenging without it being boring to play. I'd like to a game mechanic such that a group of PKs might elect to ride past a lone miner as killing him isn't worth the effort or blowback.
When the game servers that feature open world PvP end up being ghost towns it will be because the developer didn't do it correctly. Never once does it occur to these people that nobody like to work for hours to be your loot box.
What needs to happen is that a developer needs to create a game with convincing AI. Dress all the AI players up in pink rabbit suits and have the 'rabbits' mine ore all day or attempt to craft or hunt in the wild. The PK crowd can kill the 'rabbits' and the 'rabbits' will write messages on forums complaining, or beg for their loot back in game, and the PK crowd will get the high they seek from a game (OMG, IT IS LIKE OLD SKWELL UO!) and the rest of us can go build communities elsewhere.
Did I waste 30$ on LoA ? maybe, but in the future there will be different ruleset shards (the original name "Shards Online" and idea of that game is not dead), and apart from the ganking I was actually enjoying both crafting, housing and the co-op part of adventuring.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
You tried it out, didn't care for it, and moved on - which happens often in gaming.
Once the PVE servers are up you may like it.
Iselin said:
If I awake to the fact I prefer WoW with homogenized classes with 4 or 5 abilities, no freedom and no challenge, I stop playing mmos altogether.
You guys fail to understand the genre is dying because of dumbed down games. If there is still an audience for old school mmos (or mmos in general) is something to be seen, but just the fact older games are being released shows how bad the current state is.
That's why I don't understand naysayers. What are the great games you are playing?
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/7415089
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche