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TSMC had an accident

QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
https://www.hardocp.com/news/2019/01/28/tsmc_nanke_14_factory_production_interruption_could_affect_nvidia_others/

The original source articles are apparently in Chinese.

For those who aren't aware, TSMC is probably the world's largest foundry of logic chips.  They're the actual manufacturer for all or nearly all of the chips that Nvidia sells, and much of what AMD does, too.  They also manufacture a lot of cell phone chips, as well as many important things that aren't for consumer use.

Apparently one of their fabs had used some improper materials, and thus ruined a ton of wafers.  It's not clear exactly which chips are produced at which fabs, but this could mean, for example, half of the Turing GPUs that Nvidia wanted to bring to market in the next two months just went poof.  Or all of them.  Or 5% of them.  Or a week or a month or some other period of time.  And similarly for a lot of advanced cell phone chips.  I think that the Xbox One X and PS4 Pro chips are manufactured at TSMC, too, so they could also be affected or not.

A similar situation played out in late 2009 when something went wrong at TSMC and wrecked a couple months worth of AMD's Cypress GPU chip (Radeon HD 5800 series) that was then the top of the line--and far superior to anything Nvidia had to offer at the time.  Meanwhile, AMD's Juniper chip (Radeon HD 5700 series) was unaffected.  So it's possible that this could have weird effects like eliminating all new GeForce RTX 2080s for a couple of months while leaving the other Turing cards unaffected.

This won't be a direct financial loss for Nvidia, MediaTek, Huawei, or other affected companies, as TSMC won't charge them for the ruined wafers.  But it could be an indirect loss, as they won't be able to sell products that they expected to sell.

In a possibly related story, Nvidia reduced their guidance on fourth-quarter earnings by half a billion dollars.

https://techreport.com/news/34432/nvidia-drops-half-a-billion-from-q4-guidance

That said, this isn't guaranteed to turn out badly for the companies affected, at least other than TSMC, who will surely be out tens or hundreds of millions of dollars directly, as well as a hit to their reputation.  Remember how some flooding in Thailand caused hard drive shortages some years back, which led to enormous price spikes on the hard drives that were available, and record profits for Seagate and Western Digital?
gervaise1KyleranGaladourn

Comments

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    I believe the nVidia report is unrelated - they are continuing to blame crypto downturn and also currently sited slow RTX sales (although they say the 2060 should fix this.... ha). If this TSMC incident affects nVidia it will be more bad news ontop of existing bad news for them. It ~could~ be a CEO trying to defray bad news by getting ahead of it, but I would think they would jump all over an external influence they could point to rather than resorting to say RTX sales are just soft. Will be interesting to see exactly what does get hit... this could literally be anything from obscure cryptomining-specific ICs to big Apple contracts. Also, Huawei getting indicted in US - not related to TSMC either, but wow.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    Ridelynn said:
    I believe the nVidia report is unrelated - they are continuing to blame crypto downturn and also currently sited slow RTX sales (although they say the 2060 should fix this.... ha). If this TSMC incident affects nVidia it will be more bad news ontop of existing bad news for them. It ~could~ be a CEO trying to defray bad news by getting ahead of it, but I would think they would jump all over an external influence they could point to rather than resorting to say RTX sales are just soft. Will be interesting to see exactly what does get hit... this could literally be anything from obscure cryptomining-specific ICs to big Apple contracts. Also, Huawei getting indicted in US - not related to TSMC either, but wow.
    Nvidia had previously said several months ago that they expect crypto revenue for the rest of the year to be zero.  You can't go below that.  Though you're right that Nvidia's CEO is not one to fall on his sword if he has an external target to blame.

    Apparently the TSMC fab with the problems was on 16/12 nm, which includes Pascal, Volta, and Turing GPUs, though it's not clear if any of those GPUs were produced at that particular fab.  The newer 7 nm is unaffected.

    As for Huawei, China has been stealing technology and IP from foreign companies and cranking out counterfeit products for decades.  It's possible that the indictments coming now is simply because now we have an administration inclined to blast China, while previous ones were more hesitant to upset them.  It's also possible that it's merely because there are now bigger fish to target than small-time counterfeiters.
    Ozmodan
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited January 2019
    TSMC's 16/12 was indeed being used for Turing. NVidia recently reporting "slow Turing sales" may mitigate any lost production issues. 

    Whether TSMC end up paying Nvidia anything may hinge on the state of the current orders / contracts between the two.

    NVidia may have had negotiated a slow down in production if sales have been slow. The reported switch to Samsung's 7nm fab - if reports at the start of the year are accurate - may also factor into things.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    TSMC says that this is going to cost them $550 million in revenue:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/13975/tsmcs-fab-14b-photoresist-material-incident-550-million-in-lost-revenue

    That doesn't mean that $550 million in completed products just went poof.  Nvidia might pay TSMC a pro-rated $50 to make a GPU chip that they end up selling in a completed video card for hundreds of dollars.
  • grndzrogrndzro Member UncommonPosts: 1,163
    Quizzical said:
    As for Huawei, China has been stealing technology and IP from foreign companies and cranking out counterfeit products for decades.  It's possible that the indictments coming now is simply because now we have an administration inclined to blast China, while previous ones were more hesitant to upset them.  It's also possible that it's merely because there are now bigger fish to target than small-time counterfeiters.
    The big problem with China's tech industry is they don't believe in patents. If someone makes something really cool and another company runs with it better than the inventor they will simply join forces and work together.

    The US patent system IMO is terrible. Every company should rise or fall on it's own merits, not based on who invented something first.
    GdemamiKyleran
  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,020
    grndzro said:
    Quizzical said:
    As for Huawei, China has been stealing technology and IP from foreign companies and cranking out counterfeit products for decades.  It's possible that the indictments coming now is simply because now we have an administration inclined to blast China, while previous ones were more hesitant to upset them.  It's also possible that it's merely because there are now bigger fish to target than small-time counterfeiters.
    The big problem with China's tech industry is they don't believe in patents. If someone makes something really cool and another company runs with it better than the inventor they will simply join forces and work together.

    The US patent system IMO is terrible. Every company should rise or fall on it's own merits, not based on who invented something first.
    How would you stop monopolies from forming? Or bigger established competitors starving out their smaller ones?

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    grndzro said:
    Quizzical said:
    As for Huawei, China has been stealing technology and IP from foreign companies and cranking out counterfeit products for decades.  It's possible that the indictments coming now is simply because now we have an administration inclined to blast China, while previous ones were more hesitant to upset them.  It's also possible that it's merely because there are now bigger fish to target than small-time counterfeiters.
    The big problem with China's tech industry is they don't believe in patents. If someone makes something really cool and another company runs with it better than the inventor they will simply join forces and work together.

    The US patent system IMO is terrible. Every company should rise or fall on it's own merits, not based on who invented something first.
    If it's a cultural thing, then why doesn't Taiwan suffer from the same problem?  Are they not Chinese?  This thread is about Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation, the biggest foundry of logic chips in the world.  If customers didn't trust them to respect IP, no one would fab anything there.

    And it's not like TSMC is the only tech company in the world that deals with sensitive IP.  For starters, Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, and AsRock are all based there, so whatever motherboard you've got in your computer was probably made by a Taiwanese company.  There are a lot of others, too.  They have no problem with respecting IP.

    Sometimes the US patent system does go too far; in particular, "software patents" should not exist at all.  But copyright is absolutely essential.  Otherwise, you put all the work into developing something, someone else steals it and sells it, and then it's impossible for you to make back the money it cost to develop it.
    Gdemami
  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    yep we need the patent system, just that it is broken as it works right now.  Too many patents out there that never should have been issued.  I do not understand how those idiots at the patent office still attempt to issue software patents when the supreme court has said you cannot patent algorithms.  All software patents are algorithms.

    Gdemami
  • laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,122
    @Quizzical Just a shout out that I always appreciate your hardware posts. :wink:
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,973
    Quizzical said:
    grndzro said:
    Quizzical said:
    As for Huawei, China has been stealing technology and IP from foreign companies and cranking out counterfeit products for decades.  It's possible that the indictments coming now is simply because now we have an administration inclined to blast China, while previous ones were more hesitant to upset them.  It's also possible that it's merely because there are now bigger fish to target than small-time counterfeiters.
    The big problem with China's tech industry is they don't believe in patents. If someone makes something really cool and another company runs with it better than the inventor they will simply join forces and work together.

    The US patent system IMO is terrible. Every company should rise or fall on it's own merits, not based on who invented something first.
    If it's a cultural thing, then why doesn't Taiwan suffer from the same problem?  Are they not Chinese? 
    No, the Taiwanese aren't Chinese. They've been separate for more than a hundred years already, that's enough time for the cultures to diverge.
    [Deleted User]AmazingAvery
     
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    Vrika said:
    Quizzical said:
    grndzro said:
    Quizzical said:
    As for Huawei, China has been stealing technology and IP from foreign companies and cranking out counterfeit products for decades.  It's possible that the indictments coming now is simply because now we have an administration inclined to blast China, while previous ones were more hesitant to upset them.  It's also possible that it's merely because there are now bigger fish to target than small-time counterfeiters.
    The big problem with China's tech industry is they don't believe in patents. If someone makes something really cool and another company runs with it better than the inventor they will simply join forces and work together.

    The US patent system IMO is terrible. Every company should rise or fall on it's own merits, not based on who invented something first.
    If it's a cultural thing, then why doesn't Taiwan suffer from the same problem?  Are they not Chinese? 
    No, the Taiwanese aren't Chinese. They've been separate for more than a hundred years already, that's enough time for the cultures to diverge.
    Don’t tell China that
  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,413
    Taipei is the capital of the Republic of China. Not to be confused with the People's Republic of China.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    Cleffy said:
    Taipei is the capital of the Republic of China. Not to be confused with the People's Republic of China.
    Chiang Kai-shek


    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

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