Whats wrong with the casual player (or myself)

Doomedsad · February 2019

So this is going to be a long story, but maybe interesting for somebody who can relate.

In short: Whats wrong with people enjoying beating the same little boy all day long? Or whats wrong with me, that I don't find any joy in it?

In long:

(you may skip this part)

I'm a mature guy, who always was interested in video Games. However since I've got a PC consoles became mostly irrelevant to me. My entry to MMORPGs (I also played all kind of MMOs, but this Thread is related to my RPG experience) was Diablo 2 - yes I know not exactly an MMORPG, but to be honest, I think I've met more people in D2 than in most MMORPGs I played. I liked diablo 2 alot, but just repeating the same farm runs all the time while most people cheated in one or another way was kinda lame. I tried to experiment with different builds, but it was boring to quest alone - just like having somebody else level me, this would just get me faster to the boring repeating farm runs where I kill 1 Boss 5000 times. I tried self found Parties to compensate there, but even there people just cheated which made me quit D2 for good.

After that I probably played hundreds of MMOs, in some (freshly released ones) I had alot of fun, but at most for a few months. The Ultimate reason was always a lack of Players to play with (or just a completely boring Game).

And then there was D3, what a great game (in terms of gameplay, not the childish apperance and story), they took on the main issues that made the endgame of D2 so boring for me (Farm Boss x 5000 times for BIS Item x). Every Item could be useful, there was no BIS items, and it was beneficial to farm any map and not just 1 Boosroom you saw 100 times a day. Then however, instead of building on that fundament they developed for a long time, they just threw everything away and made it the same boring BIS grindfest D2 was with the addition, that it wasn't even necessary to create a new character to test a new build, since you could just change any skill anytime.

Since then I tested a couple more MMOs as they were recently launched, but they all were just casual garbage. There wasn't a game that occupied me for more than a few weeks. I kinda stopped enjoying Gaming, at least in regards of RPGs though I always wanted to play that 1 MMORPG that would make me happy. This is especially sad for myself, as I'm a Gamedeveloper (In my spare time im actually working on a kind of RPG, but not an MMORPG (lacking a few millions).

Doomedsad · February 2019

(getting to point slowly)

But now finally to the MMORPG Topic, watching a few MMORPG related Animes my desire to play an MMORPG again became unreasonable. Beeing unable to find any newly or soon (I needed one NOW, not in a month, I somewhat still need...) released Game I tried to find something in the likes of my Favorite MMORPG - Runes of Magic. I liked the World, the Story, the Quests, the Controls, the Itemsystem, the Events. I loved the DualClass System and the hard, but rewarding Dungeons. Sadly this Game is dead. I tried WoW again, was bored by everything that I like about RoM and quit. Lacking options I started playing RoM again, and I liked it, despite beeing alone all the time, however RoM is not a Sologame, theres too many Stuff that requires Teamwork and after all, what I'm mostly looking for in an MMORPG is a great Guild or Party, to work together to beat whatever we couldn't achieve alone, and be rewarded for it. After unsuccessfully searching a Party for 20 hours for the first Dungeon I was on the Edge of screwing things over and launched Neverwinter.

An MMORPG I also hadn't touched for years, but on my research I heard good things about it, so I took a look. Funnily, I actually had a maxed Character there (not anymore due to increased level cap etc.). So instead starting new as Intended I played a few hours with the Character I didn't even remember I had. But I soon realized why - Obviously the game is so boring and easy that my Brain didn't store a single Memory of it (I know that I played it, but that's it, not a single highlight stored, as obviously there were none)

And so I ended up logging into RoM again, instead of looking for players that also want to go to the Dungeon I created a Guild. Within 3 Days I recruited 30 newcomers or returning Players, which is an insane Amount considering that's on 1 of like 10 Servers who have a total of 200 concurent Players on Steam https://steamcharts.com/app/808290 and during the 6 Months of the Servers lifetime there only have been about 7000 Characters that have more than 1 Hour played and 1000 Characters over 20 hours played.

So in 1 way, I was very successful, I found many players, who joined me on my quest, to play and level the Game together. I talked to each Player in person before inviting them, probably not deeply enough, but everybody should have known what I wanted to achieve. I'm also certain 90% of them would have Quit the game very soon without having somebody to play with.

However, on Day 3 I was still leveling alone, I still hadn't cleared the Dungeon, and I was just as lonely as before. People just rather played solo, or were completely uninterested in playing the Game as it's intended to play. They all obviously had their own reasons and I would've been fine with most of it, if I saw myself anytime clearing that dungeon or leveling together in the future, but I didn't. There were some guys, whos level was higher than I thought (hidden behind the dualclass system...) and they kind of cheated to level even further (other players intended todo the same), and then offered the remaining people to just rush them through the content, or leveling without them needing to play the game.

I know there are some players who like that, but this is not what I want. Many players do actually think they want this, but then just quit out of boredom (I'm sure at least 80% of the Guild will do that soon). I don't get why people who think that kind of playstyle will be beneficial would even consider joining a Newbie Guild. There enough bored maxed players/Guilds who offer exactly that, rush through content and be max asap, I could have done that and cleared 20 Dungeons instead 1 by now if that's what I wanted.

I simply don't understand people, this mentality is like if after you are born, all you are interested in is growing 80 years skipping all the joys of life just to get your free retirement pay.

This explicitly showed when I first forced them to run the Dungeon within the normal level range (they still outleveled the dungeon, so it would have been easily possible to clear it). 3 of the 4 Players were veterans, knowing the Bosses and played endcontent of the Game etc - but they were terrible, the tank didn't mind to take aggro from the trash mobs (or was to unskilled) or just ran off to the next targets when the priest was attacked. The DDs also just focused on attacking the boss while he spawned adds on the priest and so we wiped. The Priest, the new Player was the only one doing acceptable. Though he just has no interest in playing or leveling normally, I suppose, he just want to be rushed as well. The other ones are clearly only used to overpowering the Content and just defeating everything with ease, so they never gained any skill or know their jobs roll.

So what is this shit? Either there are Games, which are no challenge at all. Or if a Game is difficult people just bend the Game the way, that they never have to face it.

I want to be strong and mighty too, but the only way I get this feeling, is if I learned the strength of my enemie and improved my skills todo that, else how can i feel strong and mighty, if i just beat up a little boy?

I also like to climb up quickly if theres competition (new game), but why do that on an old Server in a NewbieGuild where 95% of the players are already maxed. You just skip 20 Dungeons entirely to run that 1 endgame dungeon wheres the fun in that for people?

So whats wrong with people enjoying beating the same little boy all day long? Or whats wrong with me, that I don't find any joy in it?

p.s. any tipps for a (new?!, new server?!) MMORPG like RoM? (Classic Classes, hard and rewarding dungeons and more than 5 skills/abilities to master...)

Ungood · February 2019

Try Dungeons and Dragons Online.

Might scratch the itch you are looking for.. might not.. every since they nerfed my raid loot, I quit the game, but, give you will be walking with no idea how much better the stuff was, it should be fine for you.

aummoid · February 2019

Doomedsad said:

So what is this shit? Either there are Games, which are no challenge at all. Or if a Game is difficult people just bend the Game the way, that they never have to face it.

The core issue that you are having such difficulty with is a concept called "free will". In a nutshell, it means that other players of games are not obliged to play the game the way you want them to play it. They'll play it the way they want to play it. If that means they skip content they don't want to play, they'll do that. If that means they skip games they don't want to play, they'll do that too.

If you want other players to play a game the way you want them to play it, I suggest you try offering them a salary. It's a pretty good way to get people to do stuff that they would never even consider doing without one.

iixviiiix · February 2019

How about just sitting around and watch the corn you plant mature like me and other casual players did ? then feed chickens the corn , get the egg then sell it for more gold ?

You are no casual dear OP , you just as hardcore as those elite raider .

Doomedsad · February 2019

Sorry, but you 2 didn't get what I was talking about at all. Maybe you didn't bother to read most of my long chitchat or were offended by something I wrote...

"In a nutshell" this thread is about lack of Teamplay in MMORPGs and the avoidance of any challenge if possible - often causing boredom for them self. Runes of Magic was thriving while it was challenging (without easy ways to skip), everybody was doing what according to your words " they would never consider doing once" without salary. now it's a dead Game as so many MMOs.

I don't care if you like to Farm all day and be a Merchant, that's definitely part of an MMORPG. Neither did I intend to pretend that I'm a "casual" Player. Although Question remains, if that's your only Objective in game, why bother joining a Newbieguild that explicitly asks to level together?

Other than that, it would be unfortunate, if we would never come to cross Swords, but so be it, if you are supporting the Guild and chat along, you would still be a valuable Member for me, that I'd like to talk to, asking about how your business is growing, despite us valuing different aspects of the game.

Doomedsad said:

They all obviously had their own reasons and I would've been fine with most of it, if I saw myself anytime clearing that dungeon or leveling together in the future, but I didn't.

I don't get why people who think that kind of playstyle will be beneficial would even consider joining a Newbie Guild. There enough bored maxed players/Guilds who offer exactly that, rush through content and be max asap...

Cuppett5 · February 2019

Try playing Albion Online. It's grindy, good population, good PvP, and it's casual to me. I jump on a few evenings a night and go gathering, ganking, dungeon diving, Xp runs, and take care of my islands. The game is relaxing and casual to me. No pressure or time sink I feel I'm trapped in.

iixviiiix · February 2019

Well , if your object is about teamplay and the lack of it , it's because nowadays MMORPG is too complex and hard

I no trolling , they are too complex , too hard to the point developer have to make it easy to the point of retard .

in my old days of MMORPG , i log in , say hello with friends and find grind spot to progress my character , other people come by , say hello , and some join party to share the spot . sometime i go with friends to higher level zone , fight with more powerful monster to get better gears .

Most of my early MMORPG life go merry like that , it's little boring without quests and raid , but there are always places open for party .

Then age of WOW clone came , now MMORPG focus on quests and instances . So hardcore , so rush , so complex , so anti social to the point there are no need to talk with other.

Nothing wrong about you OP , it just that we are people who left behind , but refuse to forget the good time of old days .

deniter · February 2019

I honestly don't know any other gaming genre where the fundamental design choices has as little meaning as they have in MMORPGs. I mean, you can't refuse to fire a gun in a shooter game or avoid killing other players in a battle royale genre. You can't hire a chauffeur in a race car simulator or go into first person mode in aRPG.

But, for some odd reason you CAN play massively multiplayer online games alone, as a single player game, and sometimes you can do it even offline. It's even considered to be your right to be able to choose to play the game the way you want and still have access to everything the game can offer.

That said, the core of the problem is in the game design. I honestly don't know why some of these games even have group content before level cap. In many cases it's just waste of time to form a group and run a dungeon or similar piece of group content. It's more convenient to play solo.

Oh wait, the answer is always money. They want as many players around as possible to maximize profits, so they make content for all kind of gamers. And it looks like all the smart people work in MMORPG business since there's no option to play Farmville in a Fortnite map, or shoot the cars with a bazooka in a Nascar racing game in case you're not a particularly good driver.

Why do i have to suffer to play watered down games in a genre i love because of people who wouldn't give a crap about it if there wasn't a gimmick in-game that suits their playstyle?

Amathe · February 2019

A lot of people play these games just to get better and better stuff, mainly to enjoy the admiration and envy of other players. If you put the stuff they want in a raid scenario they will raid. If you make it a crafted item they will craft. But everything they do is for the reward.

Ideally they want things to be easy for them and hard for others. That's why you see people arguing for features to be put in or be left out, coincidentally in tune with their own skill set. For example, people who have lots of time want things to take a long time. People with a good sense of direction want there to be no in game maps. People with good situational awareness and tactical understanding want challenging team play. And so on.

These are acquisitional games. That's not a bad thing, but when a game starts not to make sense, this is a pretty good bedrock on which to start rebuilding one's understanding. It's rather like poker. Sure, it's a card game, and people enjoy card games, but at a more fundamental level it's about using your skills to win money.

Ungood · February 2019

deniter said:

I honestly don't know any other gaming genre where the fundamental design choices has as little meaning as they have in MMORPGs. I mean, you can't refuse to fire a gun in a shooter game or avoid killing other players in a battle royale genre. You can't hire a chauffeur in a race car simulator or go into first person mode in aRPG.

To be fair, I've made the top 5 in Fortnight, more times than I care to admit without killing anyone, so there are other ways to play.

Also, the reason for Solo play is the huge amount of hardcore jerks in MMO's, if the people that play MMO's learned to take a chill pill and not become all too often raging assholes every raid, there would be a lot less solo or small group play in MMO's

Doomedsad · February 2019

I agree to that to a degree. But unlike poker, (where you have a chance to be rewarded) rushing for the top (skipping all interesting content) of an old mmo is IMO more comparable to a donkey chasing a carrot ignoring all the tasty haystacks on his path.

Image: https://image.shutterstock.com/image-vector/donkey-following-carrot-tied-back-260nw-282473300.jpg

I guess I'm just a lynx between donkeys.

And no, I don't envy challanging teamplay, because i'm especially good at it, or see an advantage in it, its just what is enjoyable for me on an MMORPG. There other people who play MMORPGs for solopvp, or crafting, i'm totally fine with that, but if thats all there is, then I hardly can call it an MMORPG.

deniter · February 2019

Doomedsad said:

I agree to that to a degree. But unlike poker, (where you have a chance to be rewarded) rushing for the top (skipping all interesting content) of an old mmo is IMO more comparable to a donkey chasing a carrot ignoring all the tasty haystacks on his path.

I guess I'm just a lynx between donkeys.

And no, I don't envy challanging teamplay, because i'm especially good at it, or see an advantage in it, its just what is enjoyable for me on an MMORPG. There other people who play MMORPGs for solopvp, or crafting, i'm totally fine with that, but if thats all there is, then I hardly can call it an MMORPG.

Except in MMOs the donkey actually gets the carrot eventually even if he misses all the tasty haystacks. With proper design you could let the donkeys chase the carrot 'till the end of time until they realize they had to eat from the haystacks or else they would starve to death before the carrot could be reached.

Amathe · February 2019

Mad props for the donkey pic.

Hashbrick · February 2019

I think the point to drive home is the "Massive" part still exists. There is a lot of players playing. However systems are not developed to encourage grouping or social interactions. Most group you to a dungeon with randoms that are also looking to clear a dungeon. However there is no interest at this point. It might be a simple Hi is all you say as you grind down the dungeon for the 140th time. No point in socializing as you will probably never see them again, that is incredibly true for any game that does cross-server grouping.

It's awesome for the casual that has an hr or 2 to spare to just jump in and go, but terrible for the dare I say "hardcore" community as the systems are played against them. Everyone rather PUG up and go then yell around and group up the classic way.

A good comparison is classic FFXI systems compared to current FFXIV systems. The old world is being phased out since time is the most precious thing.

Wizardry · February 2019

First mistake,running to Blizzard like all the other new DSL gamer's that arrived around that same time.Diablo a second mistake for MANY reasons but then again i am thinking from a true gamer's perspective,one that wants to feel like they control the player and the game and not some sockets or gear scores as Blizzard likes to use.For the record ARPG's should not be using the letters rpg because they are NOTHING of what a rpg should be.

In the Diablo series,you have literally NO control over your player or game,once a premier build is made an 8 year old kid could pilot it while eating a sandwhich watching cartoons.I found the game design worked mildly yet still boring the FIRST play through,BEFORE you attained a premier build.

The MMORPG aspect,at least the grouping part was NEVER a foray of Blizzard games.The only true grouping games were EQ1 and FFXI,everything else was single player games with a login screen and the login screen only there to create ongoing costs to play.IMO FFXi was one stage better than EQ1 in pretty much every aspect of the design,i can't even think of one area EQ1 did better so you missed the boat on a true grouping game and way more of an rpg than anything Blizzard has ever made.
Long story short,you missed the boat and sadly brainwashed yourself into thinking Diablo is how games are made and represent rpg's.

Wizardry · February 2019

BTW i am a casual player,i don't run around like a chicken with it's head cutoff,i love to group but again i am patient and don't play like a person with ADD.SO i am not even sure when people mention the term "casual"what they mean by it.
I have also had to endure years in the past of people saying stuff like "i have no time""it's feels like a job"bla bla whatever.I have been able to enjoy casually the most forced grouping mmorpg ever,so imo people just make excuses for whatever reason.There is no timeline or restriction in anyone's life that says how fast you have to kill mobs in a game,there is no timeline that says get level 50 within 3 days or you are labelled a noob,you can play anything casually.

aummoid · February 2019

I guess I'm just a lynx between donkeys.

It must be awful to be such a pearl cast before swine.

Doomedsad · February 2019

So you define a true Gamer by a Game they have played? That seems like a low blow to me. Besides you don't know anything about my Gaming background. Yes I played Diablo, and I liked it to some extent. But I also played Wizardry or text based RPGs and 100s of other RPGs. As Gamedeveloper I know a tad about how Games are made...

Amusing how many people don't read or understand the whole text but are still triggered to leave some meaningless hateful comments

ChildoftheShadows · February 2019

Casual as in likes to play easy games that you level up without trying or casual as in can sit and chill playing EQ for 6 years and never max out my character?

I like Ike to play “hard core” games casually I guess.

Doomedsad · February 2019

If the Question is for me, actually I had the "average Player" in mind when typing it - sorry, obviously that was a bad choice I made around 4AM.

Scot · March 2019

The gaming market is not for gamers anymore it is for casuals. Sure you can find games with a lot of meat, but most are now built on the foundation that you will dip in and out of them and not finish them.

Iselin · March 2019

Scot said:

The gaming market is not for gamers anymore it is for casuals. Sure you can find games with a lot of meat, but most are now built on the foundation that you will dip in and out of them and not finish them.

Exactly. There's mad money to be made catering to the likes and dislikes of casuals who just happen to dabble in games.

Even games that are not 100% aimed at them are still trying to attract them by easing up on "chores" like leveling or gearing up and providing ways to wallet your way around those "inconveniences."

Kyleran · March 2019

Iselin said:

Scot said:

The gaming market is not for gamers anymore it is for casuals. Sure you can find games with a lot of meat, but most are now built on the foundation that you will dip in and out of them and not finish them.

Exactly. There's mad money to be made catering to the likes and dislikes of casuals who just happen to dabble in games.

Even games that are not 100% aimed at them are still trying to attract them by easing up on "chores" like leveling or gearing up and providing ways to wallet your way around those "inconveniences."

Game hoppers make up a large part of the market, if not the majority, only makes good sense to design games to appeal to them.

btdt · March 2019

Your tale seems to say you started playing MMORPGs after the "fall"... in which case you'll never actually experienced what it was like to play them in their heyday.

MMORPGs have always been the way they have been. Whether you call them easy mode, hard mode or whatever, the gameplay staple is still the same. What was different was the mindset of the players back then.

Back then, MMORPGs were new. Online games were new. The internet was new. Throw all that together and you have the wonder and excitement of the first moon landing. A once in a lifetime experience. Those that experienced it became addicted to it. It really can't be recreated anymore. And that's what pisses everyone off... they want to recreate the moon landing in 2019 but the notion of anyone walking on the moon sounds like an utter waste of time to the majority of the planet. Back before anyone had even ventured out in space, the whole world was mesmerized by it.

Back then it never was about killing some hard raid boss or even leveling. Back then it was rushing home from work, getting on the internet, and meeting up with friends online to chat WHILE playing a game together. It could have been tic-tac-toe quite frankly, the time was ripe for the the world to embrace online games like never before.

It's 2019 now. A newborn today doesn't see the internet as the moon landing of their time any more than those born after the Apollo landing, see the moon landing as anything more than a waste of time... a joke... we landed on the moon once and never went back.

Today's generation see the smart phone as God's gift to mankind. It's another appendage to them. They'd rather have their head blown off than live one day without it. You're basically asking people today to use an old teletype machine when they could easily use a smart phone. Both are completely capable of communicating to others... only one is a product of the past and the other the present/future.

Playing an MMORPG today is like playing chess... it's been around long enough that only those who really want to play it will play it. No one is busting down a door to play one anymore. Hoping that others will want to play it with you requires that you find a bunch of people interested in chess. Have you tried to find 10 people who all love to play chess? You're lucky if you can find one other.

Iselin · March 2019

Kyleran said:

Iselin said:

Scot said:

The gaming market is not for gamers anymore it is for casuals. Sure you can find games with a lot of meat, but most are now built on the foundation that you will dip in and out of them and not finish them.

Exactly. There's mad money to be made catering to the likes and dislikes of casuals who just happen to dabble in games.

Even games that are not 100% aimed at them are still trying to attract them by easing up on "chores" like leveling or gearing up and providing ways to wallet your way around those "inconveniences."

Game hoppers make up a large part of the market, if not the majority, only makes good sense to design games to appeal to them.

There's financial sense and then there's quality gaming sense. That there would be what we are all seeing in the gaming scene these days and it's something very different from what we had 20 years ago before the mainstream got into gaming.

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Whats wrong with the casual player (or myself)

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Whats wrong with the casual player (or myself)

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV