A plea for better communication from former Mods.... SHUT DOWN.

Slapshot1188 · April 2019

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/31218/a-plea-to-sbs-on-communication

A well thought out, totally non-aggressive post by a former moderator (think lead moderator) responded to by other former (current?) mod.

-------------------------
Caspien:

This was a plea to us, although in a public forum. It's been read, though we don't have time to respond meaningfully at the moment.

However, further discussion on this seems a bit pointless, as debating whether or not I should continue to go into Discord, or whether I should fire someone on the team and hire a community manager is, frankly, not something we're looking for feedback on.

I'm locking the thread to prevent further spiraling.

-------------------------

This follows another post referenced in the linked plea where Caspien berated them for daring to quote a Discord discussion on the forums.

Caspien:

When you quote me and take it to the forums to "increase the scope" of the conversation, you're essentially changing the intended audience and forcing me to have discussion on Discord as though it's a forum post.

--------------------------

How many times can this guy shoot himself in the foot? Has he yet to realize how utterly inept he is at communication?

Will nobody in the studio simply sit him down and have a frank discussion with him?

Ungood · April 2019

Tl Dr:

- Don't tell me how to run my company

- Don't be a dick and cross post stuff.

Quite reasonable really.

Torrsk · April 2019

Ungood said:

Tl Dr:

- Don't tell me how to run my company

- Don't be a dick and cross post stuff.

Quite reasonable really.

The problem with Caspian saying don't quote discord stuff. Was it's been said by many people and I'm pretty sure SBS themselves. That the soul chamber channel within discord was "official". Now it doesn't seem to be the case. Which just overall confuses everyone even more.

I have been pushing for a view that nothing is official until it's in game. Which has pretty much everyone disagrees with me on. But if it could be adopted, well no one would care where the info is shared. There so much confusion around what is official and what isn't. Then where to even find either one. Even though both official and non-official info is ever changing anyway.

While some people do take what SBS says anywhere as official anyway. The whole thing has been a problem for way too many years. With over the years SBS saying there isn't any problem at all. Even though those type of threads/comments keep appearing. Not like locking those threads down will make any concerns go away.

No doubt the timing was crap with DSS about to launch. Caspian is probably already anxious about that.

Albatroes · April 2019

I didn't know Randy Pitchford had classes on how to do PR cause this guy seems like he's in the course.

AnOldFart · April 2019

Well I thought Vye was the community manager, then she moved to a different role and Serpentius was hired, now he isn't the community manager...

I would say that a community manager is needed, doesn't need a large pay as its large an information collecting and dispersal role.

I agree with Torrsk that unless it's in game its not official because.... Well ... Meh.

Also

I've read both of those threads and I believe you have taken Caspian out of context. Unfortunately when you do that you start to go sound like it's a personal attack on him again.

Can you please go back to the witty yet constructive criticism of the game and its design or lack of progress?

AnOldFart · April 2019

Thought so...
But I can't upload it, anyway Serpentius on linked-in says his role is community manager...

Nubz_Unite · April 2019

Slapshot why not include the first post Caspian made in that thread where he stated that he had read the post but couldn't respond because he was busy working on DSS. Or how after his response a white knight tried to jump in and cause more issues. Instead of trying to take down Caspians character through choice quotes and clickbait titles, why not discuss the fact that a thread asking that DSS first be player tested before released that got the most up votes I have ever seen on the forums been basically ignored by SBS.

Slapshot1188 · April 2019

Nubz_Unite said:

Slapshot why not include the first post Caspian made in that thread where he stated that he had read the post but couldn't respond because he was busy working on DSS. Or how after his response a white knight tried to jump in and cause more issues. Instead of trying to take down Caspians character through choice quotes and clickbait titles, why not discuss the fact that a thread asking that DSS first be player tested before released that got the most up votes I have ever seen on the forums been basically ignored by SBS.

A) it’s in the link. That’s why the link in provided. Nothing is out of context as all can see for themselves... by using the link.
B ) that thread is discussed elsewhere on these forums

Slapshot1188 · April 2019

Torrsk said:

Ungood said:

Tl Dr:

- Don't tell me how to run my company

- Don't be a dick and cross post stuff.

Quite reasonable really.

The problem with Caspian saying don't quote discord stuff. Was it's been said by many people and I'm pretty sure SBS themselves. That the soul chamber channel within discord was "official". Now it doesn't seem to be the case. Which just overall confuses everyone even more.

I have been pushing for a view that nothing is official until it's in game. Which has pretty much everyone disagrees with me on. But if it could be adopted, well no one would care where the info is shared. There so much confusion around what is official and what isn't. Then where to even find either one. Even though both official and non-official info is ever changing anyway.

While some people do take what SBS says anywhere as official anyway. The whole thing has been a problem for way too many years. With over the years SBS saying there isn't any problem at all. Even though those type of threads/comments keep appearing. Not like locking those threads down will make any concerns go away.

No doubt the timing was crap with DSS about to launch. Caspian is probably already anxious about that.

It’s the classic echo chamber problem. Then to compound it, the Discord conversations are specific to the few minutes that Caspien is there. Unlike typical Discord chatting, when you see something posted an hour ago and you respond with an @Caspien it’s against the rules and you will be disciplined (after a coaching session) for tagging staff.

That got me to thinking... it seems as though Serpentius (the Community Manager) is there on Discord 20 hours a day. That may seem great, but what if instead of sitting there all day so he can tell someone they went off topic in a Discord room, he spent an hour a day compiling the info dumped there by staff into the Wiki? It seems like he would actually be great at the task. He does a ridiculously detailed job on the monthly community update posts ( like this one https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/30381/January-2019-Community-Journal ) so if he put some of that into maintaining a wiki I think it would be hugely successful.

As for Discord “not being official” it’s a ridiculous argument. Even the info in his Developer Journals have changed.

AnOldFart · April 2019

Slapshot1188 said:

Nubz_Unite said:

Slapshot why not include the first post Caspian made in that thread where he stated that he had read the post but couldn't respond because he was busy working on DSS. Or how after his response a white knight tried to jump in and cause more issues. Instead of trying to take down Caspians character through choice quotes and clickbait titles, why not discuss the fact that a thread asking that DSS first be player tested before released that got the most up votes I have ever seen on the forums been basically ignored by SBS.

A) it’s in the link. That’s why the link in provided. Nothing is out of context as all can see for themselves... by using the link.
B ) that thread is discussed elsewhere on these forums

I said I believe you have taken him out of context because that's my opinion, you say you haven't and that's your opinion, we disagree and that doesn't mean either of us is right.

What I'm saying is this post alongside your others does look like a personal attack on Jeremy Walsh.

Thats why I suggested you go back to the witty and constructive criticism of the company as a whole...

Gdemami · April 2019

AnOldFart said:
Thats why I suggested you go back to the witty and constructive criticism of the company as a whole...

...you can't go back to something you never did in the first place.

AnOldFart · April 2019

Rhoklaw said:

AnOldFart said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Nubz_Unite said:

Slapshot why not include the first post Caspian made in that thread where he stated that he had read the post but couldn't respond because he was busy working on DSS. Or how after his response a white knight tried to jump in and cause more issues. Instead of trying to take down Caspians character through choice quotes and clickbait titles, why not discuss the fact that a thread asking that DSS first be player tested before released that got the most up votes I have ever seen on the forums been basically ignored by SBS.

A) it’s in the link. That’s why the link in provided. Nothing is out of context as all can see for themselves... by using the link.
B ) that thread is discussed elsewhere on these forums

I said I believe you have taken him out of context because that's my opinion, you say you haven't and that's your opinion, we disagree and that doesn't mean either of us is right.

What I'm saying is this post alongside your others does look like a personal attack on Jeremy Walsh.

Thats why I suggested you go back to the witty and constructive criticism of the company as a whole...

Except Caspien has a history of doing and saying stupid shit. Yes, he's human, but if he doesn't know how to communicate, don't do it, period.

True but this is beyond that.

Slapshot is good at giving a different perspective on choices made during development and shouldn't need to attack someone on what they individually say to make his point.

Keller · April 2019

Rhoklaw said:

AnOldFart said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Nubz_Unite said:

Slapshot why not include the first post Caspian made in that thread where he stated that he had read the post but couldn't respond because he was busy working on DSS. Or how after his response a white knight tried to jump in and cause more issues. Instead of trying to take down Caspians character through choice quotes and clickbait titles, why not discuss the fact that a thread asking that DSS first be player tested before released that got the most up votes I have ever seen on the forums been basically ignored by SBS.

A) it’s in the link. That’s why the link in provided. Nothing is out of context as all can see for themselves... by using the link.
B ) that thread is discussed elsewhere on these forums

I said I believe you have taken him out of context because that's my opinion, you say you haven't and that's your opinion, we disagree and that doesn't mean either of us is right.

What I'm saying is this post alongside your others does look like a personal attack on Jeremy Walsh.

Thats why I suggested you go back to the witty and constructive criticism of the company as a whole...

Except Caspien has a history of doing and saying stupid shit. Yes, he's human, but if he doesn't know how to communicate, don't do it, period.

On the Wallstreet Journal website they must have the same discussion about Elon Musk

Slapshot1188 · April 2019

AnOldFart said:

Rhoklaw said:

AnOldFart said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Nubz_Unite said:

Slapshot why not include the first post Caspian made in that thread where he stated that he had read the post but couldn't respond because he was busy working on DSS. Or how after his response a white knight tried to jump in and cause more issues. Instead of trying to take down Caspians character through choice quotes and clickbait titles, why not discuss the fact that a thread asking that DSS first be player tested before released that got the most up votes I have ever seen on the forums been basically ignored by SBS.

A) it’s in the link. That’s why the link in provided. Nothing is out of context as all can see for themselves... by using the link.
B ) that thread is discussed elsewhere on these forums

I said I believe you have taken him out of context because that's my opinion, you say you haven't and that's your opinion, we disagree and that doesn't mean either of us is right.

What I'm saying is this post alongside your others does look like a personal attack on Jeremy Walsh.

Thats why I suggested you go back to the witty and constructive criticism of the company as a whole...

Except Caspien has a history of doing and saying stupid shit. Yes, he's human, but if he doesn't know how to communicate, don't do it, period.

True but this is beyond that.

Slapshot is good at giving a different perspective on choices made during development and shouldn't need to attack someone on what they individually say to make his point.

That's your opinion. I think that this represents a pattern of behavior. He takes a very softly worded, well thought out post (plus responses) by volunteer moderators and super moderators and turns it into a perceived attack which somehow resulted in him talking about not firing his staff and then, of course, SHUTTING DOWN the discussion. Head in sand syndrome is never good.

This thread had good, actionable and cost-free ideas to correct the problem. He chose to shut it down. That's ultimately a really bad thing IMHO.

AnOldFart · April 2019

Slapshot1188 said:

AnOldFart said:

Rhoklaw said:

AnOldFart said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Nubz_Unite said:

Slapshot why not include the first post Caspian made in that thread where he stated that he had read the post but couldn't respond because he was busy working on DSS. Or how after his response a white knight tried to jump in and cause more issues. Instead of trying to take down Caspians character through choice quotes and clickbait titles, why not discuss the fact that a thread asking that DSS first be player tested before released that got the most up votes I have ever seen on the forums been basically ignored by SBS.

A) it’s in the link. That’s why the link in provided. Nothing is out of context as all can see for themselves... by using the link.
B ) that thread is discussed elsewhere on these forums

I said I believe you have taken him out of context because that's my opinion, you say you haven't and that's your opinion, we disagree and that doesn't mean either of us is right.

What I'm saying is this post alongside your others does look like a personal attack on Jeremy Walsh.

Thats why I suggested you go back to the witty and constructive criticism of the company as a whole...

Except Caspien has a history of doing and saying stupid shit. Yes, he's human, but if he doesn't know how to communicate, don't do it, period.

True but this is beyond that.

Slapshot is good at giving a different perspective on choices made during development and shouldn't need to attack someone on what they individually say to make his point.

That's your opinion. I think that this represents a pattern of behavior. He takes a very softly worded, well thought out post (plus responses) by volunteer moderators and super moderators and turns it into a perceived attack which somehow resulted in him talking about not firing his staff and then, of course, SHUTTING DOWN the discussion. Head in sand syndrome is never good.

This thread had good, actionable and cost-free ideas to correct the problem. He chose to shut it down. That's ultimately a really bad thing IMHO.

See this criticism is better and what I expect. Not actually personal insult but constructive criticism about how he shouldn't have been shutting down the thread.

Subtle difference and maybe I'm being pedantic but now no one could accuse you of a personal attack.

***edit***
I see captain Lol is back...

Torrsk · April 2019

AnOldFart said:

Thought so...
But I can't upload it, anyway Serpentius on linked-in says his role is community manager...

Serpentius is a dam helpful guy, helped me a few different times in the past. But his problem, well if it's his choice or that's where Caspian/SBS is placing him, not sure there. Is that he is basically only on discord.

I do agree with Slapshot. Serpentius time would be better spent gathering all the info into one place. But also seems he deals with some/all the support tickets put in. Which I can only imagine how much time that must take.

The whole thing reminds me of them updating the forums. It's something that will happen.. maybe, but it's not high on their list. So they could use Serpentius to gather info and help everyone. But having him sit on discord, most of the time, seems the way to go.

Slapshot1188 · April 2019

Torrsk said:

AnOldFart said:

Thought so...
But I can't upload it, anyway Serpentius on linked-in says his role is community manager...

Serpentius is a dam helpful guy, helped me a few different times in the past. But his problem, well if it's his choice or that's where Caspian/SBS is placing him, not sure there. Is that he is basically only on discord.

I do agree with Slapshot. Serpentius time would be better spent gathering all the info into one place. But also seems he deals with some/all the support tickets put in. Which I can only imagine how much time that must take.

The whole thing reminds me of them updating the forums. It's something that will happen.. maybe, but it's not high on their list. So they could use Serpentius to gather info and help everyone. But having him sit on discord, most of the time, seems the way to go.

Think about what you just said. The Community Manager is overwhelmed by Discord and more importantly support tickets. Support tickets for a game that not only hasn't launched, but isn't even in Alpha. How big of a support team do you think they will need when/if they have an actual game? How can there be so many support tickets (and there are.. I am not questioning you) for a game that doesn't exist yet? It's an amazing concept and a prelude of what is to come.

Kyleran · April 2019

Slapshot1188 said:

AnOldFart said:

Rhoklaw said:

AnOldFart said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Nubz_Unite said:

Slapshot why not include the first post Caspian made in that thread where he stated that he had read the post but couldn't respond because he was busy working on DSS. Or how after his response a white knight tried to jump in and cause more issues. Instead of trying to take down Caspians character through choice quotes and clickbait titles, why not discuss the fact that a thread asking that DSS first be player tested before released that got the most up votes I have ever seen on the forums been basically ignored by SBS.

A) it’s in the link. That’s why the link in provided. Nothing is out of context as all can see for themselves... by using the link.
B ) that thread is discussed elsewhere on these forums

I said I believe you have taken him out of context because that's my opinion, you say you haven't and that's your opinion, we disagree and that doesn't mean either of us is right.

What I'm saying is this post alongside your others does look like a personal attack on Jeremy Walsh.

Thats why I suggested you go back to the witty and constructive criticism of the company as a whole...

Except Caspien has a history of doing and saying stupid shit. Yes, he's human, but if he doesn't know how to communicate, don't do it, period.

True but this is beyond that.

Slapshot is good at giving a different perspective on choices made during development and shouldn't need to attack someone on what they individually say to make his point.

That's your opinion. I think that this represents a pattern of behavior. He takes a very softly worded, well thought out post (plus responses) by volunteer moderators and super moderators and turns it into a perceived attack which somehow resulted in him talking about not firing his staff and then, of course, SHUTTING DOWN the discussion. Head in sand syndrome is never good.

This thread had good, actionable and cost-free ideas to correct the problem. He chose to shut it down. That's ultimately a really bad thing IMHO.

I read the full thread which I'm assuming Caspian didn't, considering he closed it down stating two actions supposedly were being discussed which he wasn't entertaining in however I never saw either suggestion by anyone.

He also felt as the thread was addressed to the team, it required no more "spiralling."

Apparently doesn't well comprehend the concept of discussion forum, or isn't interested in providing one. Oh well, his house after all.

Octagon7711 · April 2019

I barely follow this game now but it seems years away. Do they do those state of the game videos?

FlyByKnight · April 2019

In 2019 we should all understand game developer "forums" are to provide hand jobs, backrubs, and sweet nothings. They are not a place for free speech, and venting. It's their absolute 100% right to be obtuse and live in a bubble.

Please for the love of everything good, stop going to these websites/forums and complaining when they mod threads or ban you like it's some out of left field violation.

There are more than enough platforms for you to express your concerns about a game where the brittle developers and their creepy fan-minions turned CMs or mods can't muzzle you.

FlyByKnight · April 2019

Rhoklaw said:

Keller said:

Rhoklaw said:

AnOldFart said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Nubz_Unite said:

Slapshot why not include the first post Caspian made in that thread where he stated that he had read the post but couldn't respond because he was busy working on DSS. Or how after his response a white knight tried to jump in and cause more issues. Instead of trying to take down Caspians character through choice quotes and clickbait titles, why not discuss the fact that a thread asking that DSS first be player tested before released that got the most up votes I have ever seen on the forums been basically ignored by SBS.

A) it’s in the link. That’s why the link in provided. Nothing is out of context as all can see for themselves... by using the link.
B ) that thread is discussed elsewhere on these forums

I said I believe you have taken him out of context because that's my opinion, you say you haven't and that's your opinion, we disagree and that doesn't mean either of us is right.

What I'm saying is this post alongside your others does look like a personal attack on Jeremy Walsh.

Thats why I suggested you go back to the witty and constructive criticism of the company as a whole...

Except Caspien has a history of doing and saying stupid shit. Yes, he's human, but if he doesn't know how to communicate, don't do it, period.

On the Wallstreet Journal website they must have the same discussion about Elon Musk

I'm a Trump supporter, but sometimes I wish they'd take his phone away from him. His compulsive tweets are killing him.

That's all? Just the tweets?

Image: https://memesbams.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/18-Laughing-Really-Hard-Gif.gif

TEKK3N · April 2019

Rhoklaw said:

I'm a Trump supporter, but sometimes I wish they'd take his phone away from him. His compulsive tweets are killing him.

....killing us.

Lokero · April 2019

Ungood said:

Tl Dr:

- Don't tell me how to run my company

- Don't be a dick and cross post stuff.

Quite reasonable really.

The first point is quite reasonable, but the second is totally naive.

If people hear direct info from him/staff, it's going to end up on the forums/elsewhere. If you don't want stuff to get repeated, then don't say it. That's basic, common sense.

Ungood · April 2019

Lokero said:

Ungood said:

Tl Dr:

- Don't tell me how to run my company

- Don't be a dick and cross post stuff.

Quite reasonable really.

The first point is quite reasonable, but the second is totally naive.

If people hear direct info from him/staff, it's going to end up on the forums/elsewhere. If you don't want stuff to get repeated, then don't say it. That's basic, common sense.

It's painfully clear that Caspian is very emotionally invested into this game that he and his team are building, which is both a good and bad thing, but, if he also invites people to join him in Discord for a more "Personal" conversation, an organic person to person feel, and things said are not set, they are ideas shared with those with the mental capacity to handle them as they, for what they are, and not meant for the masses. That should be respected.

Now, If that does not get respected, the recourse obviously is to have it go away and set a stage for information black-out, which is what a lot of companies do, they hire PR, and everyone gets obscure, non-committal satanized PR BS, because that is all their limited mental functionally can handle.

Amathe · April 2019

This game seems to have more than its fair share of unhelpful drama.

Mendel · April 2019

Amathe said:

This game seems to have more than its fair share of unhelpful drama.

Let me correct that... self-inflicted, unhelpful drama.

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A plea for better communication from former Mods.... SHUT DOWN.

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

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A plea for better communication from former Mods.... SHUT DOWN.

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey