Better days ahead

delete5230 · May 2019

It seems in life when some something gets too big and boastful tragedy hits and it crumbles.
Atlantis fell to ashes, Rome fell too, yet here we are.

Well here we are yet again... mmorpg's are at its worst and video games overall (in my opinion) are not far behind.

Failing businesses leave the door open for the up and coming small guy. Were at the precipice of a new age in mmorpgs and video games in general.

It's "hog wash" to think people moved on from the social aspect that true mmorpg's provide..... Big Business killed it

Amaranthar · May 2019

It's like this.
(Substitute "gaming" for "music."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yHTpGog0IY

Amaranthar · May 2019

Where's the feeling? The poetry? The immersion?
Where's my cambric shirt?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BakWVXHSug

BeansnBread · May 2019

Arterius said:

I agree with you on the MMORPG side of things but I think Video Games in general are the strongest they have been in years. I have finished more games in the last two years then i think I have my whole life and I have a baby now. Sure MTX's are getting out of control but except for a few bad apples here or there most of the time you can completely ignore them altogether. I hate MTX but there have been some great games with MTX's that didn't hinder my enjoyment.

AC: Origins, AC: Oddessy, DMC5, Division 2, and WWE2k19.

While half of those games suck, I agree, I feel like we are in the middle of a gaming renaissance.

BeansnBread · May 2019

Double post.

Anthur · May 2019

The new age of games following mmorpgs already happened (beside the fact that the other genres never were dead anyway). Look at all those BR games and other multiplayer games like Division/Destiny/Warframe etc. but also single player games. They all incorporated those parts of mmorpgs which the majority of players wanted.

- short play times

- instant gratifications

- abundance of loot

- triviality of game concepts

- instancing

- shallow social interaction

The evolution is already done. I can't help if you don't like it but it is what it is. And the majority of players like it this way. And only players are to "blame" for this. Though I don't think blame is the right word here. The business only gave the customer what he wanted. Maybe not what you personally wanted, but the majority.

At least for single player games I have to agree with them because there are more games out there which I could possibly ever play.

It's a little sad that mmorpgs didn't evolve into what some of us liked. There was the potential of something special. But evolution doesn't care about personal preferences. What works best will be successfull the rest will fall behind up to extinction in worst case.

BeansnBread · May 2019

Anthur said:

The new age of games following mmorpgs already happened (beside the fact that the other genres never were dead anyway). Look at all those BR games and other multiplayer games like Division/Destiny/Warframe etc. but also single player games. They all incorporated those parts of mmorpgs which the majority of players wanted.

- short play times
- instant gratifications
- abundance of loot
- triviality of game concepts
- instancing
- shallow social interaction

The evolution is already done. I can't help if you don't like it but it is what it is. And the majority of players like it this way. And only players are to "blame" for this. Though I don't think blame is the right word here. The business only gave the customer what he wanted. Maybe not what you personally wanted, but the majority.

At least for single player games I have to agree with them because there are more games out there which I could possibly ever play.

It's a little sad that mmorpgs didn't evolve into what some of us liked. There was the potential of something special. But evolution doesn't care about personal preferences. What works best will be successfull the rest will fall behind up to extinction in worst case.

My personal dream, from literally 20 years ago, was a game that imitated life, but with some twist on it - realism, with magic or science fiction (or just a fiction in general). It was a very basic and not very imaginative.

Instead, we received games. And I love games. But I had hoped that the natural progression from games like EQ and Meridian 59 and a shitload of MUDs would be a simulation of reality with a twist.

I was incorrect in assuming the direction of MMO gaming early on. But no matter how disappointing it was, I realized that gamers, me included, don't actually want what my dream was (at least not on a mass scale).

Weirdly, it was flight simulators that made me fully realize what I like/dislike. I love games. I love abstractions. When something gets as complex as reality, at least in a game, it becomes obnoxious to me.

It has always been a struggle between what I think I intellectually should like and what I actually enjoy playing. I think that is a completely absurd way to be, but it's definitely the way I am.

Kyleran · May 2019

delete5230 said:

It's "hog wash" to think people moved on from the social aspect that true mmorpg's provide..... Big Business killed it

No, really, most gamers have moved on and socialize online in venues outside of MMORPGS.

Those were different times and they aren't coming back, at least not on any grand scale.

Big business mostly caters to the preferences of the masses, they don't actually mold it.

Scorchien · May 2019

Hmm days are fine ..Anarchy 2019 , EQ2 (kaladim) , UO ... i see any problem from my seat

Bladeburaiba · May 2019

People, this is why we do not live forever. Each generation always pines for what it had, even with changed circumstances, and can't move forward.

I do not think we'll see games delivering mind-blowing experiences like we had in the beginning until the intersection of some truly advanced game technology and complete turnover of game-making leadership. Of course, I'll most likely be dead by then

.

Palebane · May 2019

Yeah, money always fucks things up, especially all the shallow douchebags that have way too much of it. Once mmorpgs became popular I could almost hear the toilet bowl emptying every time I logged in.

Sovrath · May 2019

delete5230 said:

Atlantis fell to ashes

I don't really believe Atlantis existed.

Kyleran · May 2019

Sovrath said:

delete5230 said:

Atlantis fell to ashes

I don't really believe Atlantis existed.

That's OK, I don't think Wyoming really exists either.

Amaranthar · May 2019

BeansnBread said:

Anthur said:

The new age of games following mmorpgs already happened (beside the fact that the other genres never were dead anyway). Look at all those BR games and other multiplayer games like Division/Destiny/Warframe etc. but also single player games. They all incorporated those parts of mmorpgs which the majority of players wanted.

- short play times
- instant gratifications
- abundance of loot
- triviality of game concepts
- instancing
- shallow social interaction

The evolution is already done. I can't help if you don't like it but it is what it is. And the majority of players like it this way. And only players are to "blame" for this. Though I don't think blame is the right word here. The business only gave the customer what he wanted. Maybe not what you personally wanted, but the majority.

At least for single player games I have to agree with them because there are more games out there which I could possibly ever play.

It's a little sad that mmorpgs didn't evolve into what some of us liked. There was the potential of something special. But evolution doesn't care about personal preferences. What works best will be successfull the rest will fall behind up to extinction in worst case.

My personal dream, from literally 20 years ago, was a game that imitated life, but with some twist on it - realism, with magic or science fiction (or just a fiction in general). It was a very basic and not very imaginative.

Instead, we received games. And I love games. But I had hoped that the natural progression from games like EQ and Meridian 59 and a shitload of MUDs would be a simulation of reality with a twist.

I was incorrect in assuming the direction of MMO gaming early on. But no matter how disappointing it was, I realized that gamers, me included, don't actually want what my dream was (at least not on a mass scale).

Weirdly, it was flight simulators that made me fully realize what I like/dislike. I love games. I love abstractions. When something gets as complex as reality, at least in a game, it becomes obnoxious to me.

It has always been a struggle between what I think I intellectually should like and what I actually enjoy playing. I think that is a completely absurd way to be, but it's definitely the way I am.

I want more realism, but I don't want the extreme that you are describing.
I think it's a shame that gamers like yourself make this assumption. But it happens in almost every post about "realism" none the less.

Amaranthar · May 2019

Anthur said:

The new age of games following mmorpgs already happened (beside the fact that the other genres never were dead anyway). Look at all those BR games and other multiplayer games like Division/Destiny/Warframe etc. but also single player games. They all incorporated those parts of mmorpgs which the majority of players wanted.

- short play times
- instant gratifications
- abundance of loot
- triviality of game concepts
- instancing
- shallow social interaction

The evolution is already done. I can't help if you don't like it but it is what it is. And the majority of players like it this way. And only players are to "blame" for this. Though I don't think blame is the right word here. The business only gave the customer what he wanted. Maybe not what you personally wanted, but the majority.

At least for single player games I have to agree with them because there are more games out there which I could possibly ever play.

It's a little sad that mmorpgs didn't evolve into what some of us liked. There was the potential of something special. But evolution doesn't care about personal preferences. What works best will be successfull the rest will fall behind up to extinction in worst case.

The question is, "works best" for who?
This evolution wasn't natural, it was contrived.
Natural would have been by the game designs themselves.
Contrived is because game developers wanted certain outcomes for their own reasons, and forced it into the game designs.
Cash shops being the most classic, and easiest to see, example.

Theocritus · May 2019

There is so much coming out, I cannot keep track of all of it...Every week there is something released I have never even heard of....Now MMOs on the other hand..........

AAAMEOW · May 2019

I don't know why you think those small company can do well... The ones that are actually surviving have a fraction player of a generic themepark game.

Vermillion_Raventhal · May 2019

BeansnBread said:

Anthur said:

The new age of games following mmorpgs already happened (beside the fact that the other genres never were dead anyway). Look at all those BR games and other multiplayer games like Division/Destiny/Warframe etc. but also single player games. They all incorporated those parts of mmorpgs which the majority of players wanted.

- short play times
- instant gratifications
- abundance of loot
- triviality of game concepts
- instancing
- shallow social interaction

The evolution is already done. I can't help if you don't like it but it is what it is. And the majority of players like it this way. And only players are to "blame" for this. Though I don't think blame is the right word here. The business only gave the customer what he wanted. Maybe not what you personally wanted, but the majority.

At least for single player games I have to agree with them because there are more games out there which I could possibly ever play.

It's a little sad that mmorpgs didn't evolve into what some of us liked. There was the potential of something special. But evolution doesn't care about personal preferences. What works best will be successfull the rest will fall behind up to extinction in worst case.

My personal dream, from literally 20 years ago, was a game that imitated life, but with some twist on it - realism, with magic or science fiction (or just a fiction in general). It was a very basic and not very imaginative.

Instead, we received games. And I love games. But I had hoped that the natural progression from games like EQ and Meridian 59 and a shitload of MUDs would be a simulation of reality with a twist.

I was incorrect in assuming the direction of MMO gaming early on. But no matter how disappointing it was, I realized that gamers, me included, don't actually want what my dream was (at least not on a mass scale).

Weirdly, it was flight simulators that made me fully realize what I like/dislike. I love games. I love abstractions. When something gets as complex as reality, at least in a game, it becomes obnoxious to me.

It has always been a struggle between what I think I intellectually should like and what I actually enjoy playing. I think that is a completely absurd way to be, but it's definitely the way I am.

The biggest thing is that WoW shaped the genre. They brought in the most people in the west by far. WoW became synonymous with MMORPG by all standards. It is what players and many developers grew up on. It is what shareholders demanded. But emulation and refinement of a WoW like genre brought us to a place where it is just isn't sustainable or worth it for developers.

Metrics to give players what they want based on what they do is good and bad. People on average aways follow the path of least resistance. This will not always lead towards healthy choices. Just as people's tendency to gravitate to cheap and easy foods isn't healthy.

Next the development of MMORPG has never reached a point where niche games have been successful. This won't change until there is a way to make making these games id easy and on par with making any other game. Inability to push out MMORPG in timely and cost efficient manner hurts an already latency handicap genre.

We lost 2 decades and now largely financial support to see a new MMORPG to try to imagine what UO and SWG would be in 2019. Vast majority of MMORPG players came after these games. They know themepark and that's it. There are no other MMORPG types.

I think if you want a simulated world survival games will become the MMO you seek in a round about way. I know Amazon's game is looking to have 10k players on a server. They can offer the control for players to forge their own server and rules.

Scot · May 2019

I see no reason that the gaming industry is gong to crumble, it is making such huge amounts of money now that internationally known c-suits have been joining gaming companies for over a decade.

But I don't think they are making games for gamers any more and they don't have to. Unless you think most of the people playing mobile games are gamers, which I do not. Most of the people who spend more time watching gaming streams than actually playing are gamers, which I do not.

The history of gaming has been to leave the smaller player base behind as you reach for the bigger one, firstly with an everyman approach to design to try to fit all gamers with their many preferences into any gaming genre. And secondly with an easy mode approach to make them more and more popular with those who are not that keen on games, not that keen to spend much time on them, do tutorials, read strategy guides or anything else.

Games have been steadily turned into a version of chill out TV; common themes, UI, easy play, pay instead of grind, tired franchises instead of the risk of new ideas. Eat your popcorn, sit back and watch the game play itself...in such a gaming environment we are less and less able to call ourselves gamers anymore.

Scot · May 2019

Gorwe said:

Scot said:

I see no reason that the gaming industry is gong to crumble, it is making such huge amounts of money now that internationally known c-suits have been joining gaming companies for over a decade.

But I don't think they are making games for gamers any more and they don't have to. Unless you think most of the people playing mobile games are gamers, which I do not. Most of the people who spend more time watching gaming streams than actually playing are gamers, which I do not.

The history of gaming has been to leave the smaller player base behind as you reach for the bigger one, firstly with an everyman approach to design to try to fit all gamers with their many preferences into any gaming genre. And secondly with an easy mode approach to make them more and more popular with those who are not that keen on games, not that keen to spend much time on them, do tutorials, read strategy guides or anything else.

Games have been steadily turned into a version of chill out TV; common themes, UI, easy play, pay instead of grind, tired franchises instead of the risk of new ideas. Eat your popcorn, sit back and watch the game play itself...in such a gaming environment we are less and less able to call ourselves gamers anymore.

Well, who is making me purchase the new shit? The old games are still around(and yes they are ; you can still play Seven Kingdoms). Hell, if the feelgood casual newskool games actually feel good...it's a win / win for me.

Not saying there is nothing good around now, but ask yourself this. Would the you of 2000 have rated modern games as good as you do now for gameplay? The graphics are better of course but have we been led to a different style of gaming by the nose? Do you like the new meal on the table because it is really good or because over time you came to like what you were fed as the menu slowy chnaged? I leave that to you to work out, not saying I know for sure, it is very difficult to judge your own behaviour and why we do anything.

anemo · May 2019

We're getting closer and closer each year to having our old MMORPG definition of "500 people on a persistent server, with some sort of RPG character development system" be a "solo-able" endeavor (solo-able closer to one person's financial resources, rather than man hours).

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8Yp-YagXZ4C5vOduEhcjRw As an example.

Now days you can find "Weekend Level" tutorials for servers that can handle 20 to 50 people:

http://www.gojasonyang.com/posts/1

https://www.dynetisgames.com/2017/03/06/how-to-make-a-multiplayer-online-game-with-phaser-socket-io-and-node-js/

In a few years maybe ten at worst, those numbers should easily be over 100 people on a server for a "Weekend Level" project.

__________________________

The real problem comes down to is if people are willing to give up AAA graphics and refinement for something they claim to "want most". Considering people still play MUDs and similar, there are at least some people willing to put their money where their mouth is.

Vermillion_Raventhal · May 2019

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

Scot said:

Gorwe said:

Scot said:

I see no reason that the gaming industry is gong to crumble, it is making such huge amounts of money now that internationally known c-suits have been joining gaming companies for over a decade.

But I don't think they are making games for gamers any more and they don't have to. Unless you think most of the people playing mobile games are gamers, which I do not. Most of the people who spend more time watching gaming streams than actually playing are gamers, which I do not.

The history of gaming has been to leave the smaller player base behind as you reach for the bigger one, firstly with an everyman approach to design to try to fit all gamers with their many preferences into any gaming genre. And secondly with an easy mode approach to make them more and more popular with those who are not that keen on games, not that keen to spend much time on them, do tutorials, read strategy guides or anything else.

Games have been steadily turned into a version of chill out TV; common themes, UI, easy play, pay instead of grind, tired franchises instead of the risk of new ideas. Eat your popcorn, sit back and watch the game play itself...in such a gaming environment we are less and less able to call ourselves gamers anymore.

Well, who is making me purchase the new shit? The old games are still around(and yes they are ; you can still play Seven Kingdoms). Hell, if the feelgood casual newskool games actually feel good...it's a win / win for me.

Not saying there is nothing good around now, but ask yourself this. Would the you of 2000 have rated modern games as good as you do now for gameplay? The graphics are better of course but have we been led to a different style of gaming by the nose? Do you like the new meal on the table because it is really good or because over time you came to like what you were fed as the menu slowy chnaged? I leave that to you to work out, not saying I know for sure, it is very difficult to judge your own behaviour and why we do anything.

Nobody would ever have imagined a game like "Rise of the Tomb Raider" in the 2000s. And it still happened. And I'm thankful for that.
Now if you want to go all arrogant and tell me that I can only be stupid for enjoying such games, be my guest. I care a lot

I never thought we would be bringing the arcade home. We have expensive hardware, TVs/monitors then buy games full price for them to charge us thousands to get in game items for Mortal Kombat.

There is a drastic value factor with gaming.

Scot · May 2019

Gorwe said:

Scot said:

Gorwe said:

Scot said:

I see no reason that the gaming industry is gong to crumble, it is making such huge amounts of money now that internationally known c-suits have been joining gaming companies for over a decade.

But I don't think they are making games for gamers any more and they don't have to. Unless you think most of the people playing mobile games are gamers, which I do not. Most of the people who spend more time watching gaming streams than actually playing are gamers, which I do not.

The history of gaming has been to leave the smaller player base behind as you reach for the bigger one, firstly with an everyman approach to design to try to fit all gamers with their many preferences into any gaming genre. And secondly with an easy mode approach to make them more and more popular with those who are not that keen on games, not that keen to spend much time on them, do tutorials, read strategy guides or anything else.

Games have been steadily turned into a version of chill out TV; common themes, UI, easy play, pay instead of grind, tired franchises instead of the risk of new ideas. Eat your popcorn, sit back and watch the game play itself...in such a gaming environment we are less and less able to call ourselves gamers anymore.

Well, who is making me purchase the new shit? The old games are still around(and yes they are ; you can still play Seven Kingdoms). Hell, if the feelgood casual newskool games actually feel good...it's a win / win for me.

Not saying there is nothing good around now, but ask yourself this. Would the you of 2000 have rated modern games as good as you do now for gameplay? The graphics are better of course but have we been led to a different style of gaming by the nose? Do you like the new meal on the table because it is really good or because over time you came to like what you were fed as the menu slowy chnaged? I leave that to you to work out, not saying I know for sure, it is very difficult to judge your own behaviour and why we do anything.

That's a very insightful remark. To answer the question: it's impossible to say. On one hand I don't like most of modern games, but I have experience now. Something I wouldn't have in 2000s. Perhaps I would have liked them given the newness factor. But there's one question I forgot to ask:

What modern games? Do define them if you would.

I would find it hard not to find any game that has not been at least touched by the ever Easier Mode design template. Dark Souls of course some more tricky indie games like FTL, but they are so well known because of it, there are so few truly difficult games now. In MMOs the whole move to "solo friendly" in MMOs was a huge drop in difficulty level.

It is more of a sliding scale than "these are the easy games", rather like cash shops they are not all the same but all headed in one direction. Also ask yourself this, when in any game that has come out at any stage (MMOS could be years down the line) have you heard them announce that something is going to be harder to do now? Virtually never, the only way is ever easier.

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

Scot said:

Gorwe said:

Scot said:

I see no reason that the gaming industry is gong to crumble, it is making such huge amounts of money now that internationally known c-suits have been joining gaming companies for over a decade.

But I don't think they are making games for gamers any more and they don't have to. Unless you think most of the people playing mobile games are gamers, which I do not. Most of the people who spend more time watching gaming streams than actually playing are gamers, which I do not.

The history of gaming has been to leave the smaller player base behind as you reach for the bigger one, firstly with an everyman approach to design to try to fit all gamers with their many preferences into any gaming genre. And secondly with an easy mode approach to make them more and more popular with those who are not that keen on games, not that keen to spend much time on them, do tutorials, read strategy guides or anything else.

Games have been steadily turned into a version of chill out TV; common themes, UI, easy play, pay instead of grind, tired franchises instead of the risk of new ideas. Eat your popcorn, sit back and watch the game play itself...in such a gaming environment we are less and less able to call ourselves gamers anymore.

Well, who is making me purchase the new shit? The old games are still around(and yes they are ; you can still play Seven Kingdoms). Hell, if the feelgood casual newskool games actually feel good...it's a win / win for me.

Not saying there is nothing good around now, but ask yourself this. Would the you of 2000 have rated modern games as good as you do now for gameplay? The graphics are better of course but have we been led to a different style of gaming by the nose? Do you like the new meal on the table because it is really good or because over time you came to like what you were fed as the menu slowy chnaged? I leave that to you to work out, not saying I know for sure, it is very difficult to judge your own behaviour and why we do anything.

Nobody would ever have imagined a game like "Rise of the Tomb Raider" in the 2000s. And it still happened. And I'm thankful for that.
Now if you want to go all arrogant and tell me that I can only be stupid for enjoying such games, be my guest. I care a lot

A good pick "Rise of the Tomb Raider", lets have a think about that game. How much of what you liked was down to the grahics, the fact your hard drive is storing a game 20.5GB, thats 11 times as big as the equivalent in 2000 and your PC is working much faster? Also factor in the cinematic know how that has come into games over the last twenty years? Not saying its is not enjoyable I liked it, but I did think the jumping/action to get secret treasures was a lame walk in the park compared to the earlier games.

Stupid? Come on you know I am not saying that, that would be like saying that kids today are stupider because exams are not as hard as they used to be (I can supply links if you really wish me to), it is down to examining boards and society not the kids.

But thats a good example, just like the kids would have real issues if the exams got tougher, so would gamers. You can imagine the fallout from that.

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV