The problem I think is you won't find enough players willing to play the more mundane roles, heck few are willing to be guards who might see action, much less a magistrate.
EDIT: I have no knowledge of Asheron's Call 2. My assumption is that the game requires a player to do repetitive mundane tasks? Did they have multiple characters? ---- I see your point but these discussion are always tricky. When I say x, I have conditions y and z also in mind but you will naturally interpret it differently. I confess to find it hard to describe what I mean exactly.
You have a character and that character has many children. Only some of those children are activated with a subscription. All those children are placed into the various roles, simply to prevent them starving. The activated ones are in the roles you want to actually perform. Naturally, those would be the merchants, craftsman, warriors, nobles etc. So mundane roles for the most part would be fulfilled by OPCs that belong to your account and which you can activate in the future but right now is a de facto NPC.
In the case of an OPC guard, that player could use it as a PvP character. I assume travel to be time consuming. A player that wants a lot of PvP action would have several PvP characters in different locations. He would assume control of the one where the fighting is going on.
I need to stress that at no point should the intention be for players to perform mundane activities. So while the OPC is a guard the player does not actually guard. He logs onto that character to PvP or make major character management decisions, i.e. the interesting stuff. The actual "guard" activities happens in his absence and in many other instances the OPC is an NPC interface or simply adding to the RPG atmosphere. You can route traditional RPG dialogue through these OPCs. Players must always be involved in either skilled actions or management.
I would rather ask that you think of what you could do with a system based on OPCs, rather than simply changing that one aspect of existing designs. You pretty much have to revisit everything. I admit that it is hard to stipulate enough of the rest to make discussion easy!
As I understand in COE, its possible a player could very well log off for a few
weeks and come back to find their character perma dead, all of their assets
except what is in their pockets looted and destroyed, with no safe storage
anywhere in game.
If nothing has changed in the design ( I have stopped following closely CoE in 2017) the idea for OPC's death was that if you get killed, you will remain "paused" in an astral plane until you log in, removing the possibility of someone perma killing you while you are offline.
I dunno logging into a dead character then having to buy souls with real money sounds like something I would avoid...
I quite like the mechanic.
The idea they have is that your soul is your character not the person your currently playing. Just like material possessions are transient.
It might not work but it's a nice spin on it, especially for someone like me who likes to try lots of different roles.
Since there is npc town guards it's going to need more than 1 person to burn anything.
Also note that the idea is that the opc would wake up and defend themselves.
I'm not saying it will work but if your going to trash a mechanic make sure your using all of the mechanic not just bits you have chosen
If you want to have a thread where we walk through all the issues with this mechanic I am sure you can find one buried on these forums. I think I stated enough of the mechanic for the purposes of this thread.
Besides, I am fairly certain we are never going to get anything close to what was promised regarding OPCs but time will tell.
And no you didn't, there is npc guards, if your going to discuss the flaws of having players remain in the world you also need to include that there will be npc guards who will defend them.
And even if the opc mechanic only has the player remaining as a shop that calls guards and defends itself when attacked there will be mechanics to prevent wide scale griefing.
As I said this may not work but if your going to bring it up or comment on it you should use all the facts. (and I know you know them all)
I didn’t introduce the OPC mechanic to the discussion. I was responding to someone. So feel free to take the chip on your shoulder down the road to that person.
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As I understand in COE, its possible a player could very well log off for a few
weeks and come back to find their character perma dead, all of their assets
except what is in their pockets looted and destroyed, with no safe storage
anywhere in game.
If nothing has changed in the design ( I have stopped following closely CoE in 2017) the idea for OPC's death was that if you get killed, you will remain "paused" in an astral plane until you log in, removing the possibility of someone perma killing you while you are offline.
I dunno logging into a dead character then having to buy souls with real money sounds like something I would avoid...
I quite like the mechanic.
The idea they have is that your soul is your character not the person your currently playing. Just like material possessions are transient.
It might not work but it's a nice spin on it, especially for someone like me who likes to try lots of different roles.
Since there is npc town guards it's going to need more than 1 person to burn anything.
Also note that the idea is that the opc would wake up and defend themselves.
I'm not saying it will work but if your going to trash a mechanic make sure your using all of the mechanic not just bits you have chosen
If you want to have a thread where we walk through all the issues with this mechanic I am sure you can find one buried on these forums. I think I stated enough of the mechanic for the purposes of this thread.
Besides, I am fairly certain we are never going to get anything close to what was promised regarding OPCs but time will tell.
And no you didn't, there is npc guards, if your going to discuss the flaws of having players remain in the world you also need to include that there will be npc guards who will defend them.
And even if the opc mechanic only has the player remaining as a shop that calls guards and defends itself when attacked there will be mechanics to prevent wide scale griefing.
As I said this may not work but if your going to bring it up or comment on it you should use all the facts. (and I know you know them all)
I didn’t introduce the OPC mechanic to the discussion. I was responding to someone. So feel free to take the chip on your shoulder down the road to that person.
Omg this isn't about the Opc (not npc) **edit**, I'm responding to you saying that people will get griefed while offline.
I am saying there is npc guards in town just like in traditional games.
I only mentioned opc in the context that they aren't going to stand their being killed.
PS I have no chip on my shoulder, those days are long gone, I am responding perfectly in line with what you are talking about.
I have a very different belief on how it will play out and I’m pretty sure mine will prove out. It’s been debated as nauseum over the last 2 years. I have no intentions of giving a 5 paragraph expository on potential positives and negatives every time I mention OPCs.
Some day we hopefully won’t be talking hypotheticals. Speaking of which is the last official word that release is this year?
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Screeps does the always online thing. And is interesting for it.
Though the tech for it, is literally business changing. As in bug hunting by the devs and tuning by them have literally caused rewrites and changes to Node.js.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Screeps does the always online thing. And is interesting for it.
Though the tech for it, is literally business changing. As in bug hunting by the devs and tuning by them have literally caused rewrites and changes to Node.js.
Interestingly Caspian plays screeps in the evenings with the community. Although he hasn't had chance for a while
Screeps does the always online thing. And is interesting for it.
Though the tech for it, is literally business changing. As in bug hunting by the devs and tuning by them have literally caused rewrites and changes to Node.js.
Always online characters don't really bother me in themselves, rather can the player reasonably protect them and their assets from being completely looted or destroyed while the player is away.
How does Screeps deal with this concern?
In EVE and most other games the answer is yes, but not sure in COEs case if this will be true.
Relying on player or NPCs to keep everything safe is something I've never seen work successfully, only by intentional developer design can such assurance be given.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Screeps does the always online thing. And is interesting for it.
Though the tech for it, is literally business changing. As in bug hunting by the devs and tuning by them have literally caused rewrites and changes to Node.js.
Always online characters don't really bother me in themselves, rather can the player reasonably protect them and their assets from being completely looted or destroyed while the player is away.
How does Screeps deal with this concern?
In EVE and most other games the answer is yes, but not sure in COEs case if this will be true.
Relying on player or NPCs to keep everything safe is something I've never seen work successfully, only by intentional developer design can such assurance be given.
No they can't in screeps.
As for Coe it's supposed to be quite hard to destroy structures. Ie you can't do it with a sword.
And for valuables they are supposed to be putting in things like false doors etc for creating safe spots.
I say supposed because we won't know until its done
This thread talks about COE's strategies. But that really puts the cart before the horse. What they want to do with their game, or what we think they want to do with their game is all pointless. There is no game, and looking at all the history of this project, is there anyone who actually believes there ever will be? Or that even if there is some miracle and some title called COE is released, that it will have any resemblance to anything that has been discussed so far?
It may not have started out as such, but at this point, I believe it has failed and is now just a front and a scam to pay back the mortgage that Caspian took out on his house.
This thread talks about COE's strategies. But that really puts the cart before the horse. What they want to do with their game, or what we think they want to do with their game is all pointless. There is no game, and looking at all the history of this project, is there anyone who actually believes there ever will be? Or that even if there is some miracle and some title called COE is released, that it will have any resemblance to anything that has been discussed so far?
It may not have started out as such, but at this point, I believe it has failed and is now just a front and a scam to pay back the mortgage that Caspian took out on his house.
Idk old man. Honest question, have you been following the game on their forums, or has you opinion been formed by these forums.
This thread talks about COE's strategies. But that really puts the cart before the horse. What they want to do with their game, or what we think they want to do with their game is all pointless. There is no game, and looking at all the history of this project, is there anyone who actually believes there ever will be? Or that even if there is some miracle and some title called COE is released, that it will have any resemblance to anything that has been discussed so far?
It may not have started out as such, but at this point, I believe it has failed and is now just a front and a scam to pay back the mortgage that Caspian took out on his house.
Idk old man. Honest question, have you been filling the game on their forums, or has you opinion been formed by these forums.
Following the game isn't a choice of forums, and truth isn't the domain of any specific forum. Watch what is said and the reactions, and form opinions. SBS has lost control of the COE debate, and their leader is the one that reacts the most, and most harmfully. People have started asking hard questions about both the intent of the game and the methods employed to make the game. Now that demonstrations of results are being requested, the reactions are becoming more fervent and frequent. SBS is reacting, not leading.
Caspien removed himself from active participation on these boards, no one prevents him from participating here. Yes, removing himself from a specific forum is a reasonable thing to do (from a 'focus on the game' perspective), but that particular action also came with insinuated attacks on anyone posing difficult questions about COE, either the game or the project. It really was a 'take my ball and go home' moment.
Such actions, including various public arguments with posters on various sites, and a series of delays where SBS failed to meet their own target dates gives plenty of support to questions about the competency of the team's ability to meet other, larger goals. That's pretty evident no matter where the information comes from.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
This thread talks about COE's strategies. But that really puts the cart before the horse. What they want to do with their game, or what we think they want to do with their game is all pointless. There is no game, and looking at all the history of this project, is there anyone who actually believes there ever will be? Or that even if there is some miracle and some title called COE is released, that it will have any resemblance to anything that has been discussed so far?
It may not have started out as such, but at this point, I believe it has failed and is now just a front and a scam to pay back the mortgage that Caspian took out on his house.
I don't believe it is an active scam, but it is possible their goals are unobtainable and or the funding may come to a screeching halt, killing the game.
Regardless, I still root for the underdog...while of course not committing any of my own money.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
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He has more than enough money to cover his mortgage 6.1m at my last look.
I don't think it's a scam, will it succeed, I hope so but I'm no longer even 50% certain
Are you saying Caspien has $1M in the bank?
Edit- Ahh I see... you are referencing the $6.1M raised through donations. Well, I hope he’s not using that money to pay his mortgage or buy new cars... but regardless... it’s a meaningless number without knowing how much is left and what the burn rate is.
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He has more than enough money to cover his mortgage 6.1m at my last look.
I don't think it's a scam, will it succeed, I hope so but I'm no longer even 50% certain
Are you saying Caspien has $1M in the bank?
Edit- Ahh I see... you are referencing the $6.1M raised through donations. Well, I hope he’s not using that money to pay his mortgage or buy new cars... but regardless... it’s a meaningless number without knowing how much is left and what the burn rate is.
I was meaning if its a con then he has enough to cover his mortgage. But since I believe they are trying to make the game who knows how much is left.
It may not have started out as such, but at this point, I believe it has failed and is now just a front and a scam to pay back the mortgage that Caspian took out on his house.
I was answering this part of a post. I just didn't quote it, I assumed everyone who was reading the thread would have gathered that due to the mortgage reference.
He has more than enough money to cover his mortgage 6.1m at my last look.
I don't think it's a scam, will it succeed, I hope so but I'm no longer even 50% certain
Are you saying Caspien has $1M in the bank?
Edit- Ahh I see... you are referencing the $6.1M raised through donations. Well, I hope he’s not using that money to pay his mortgage or buy new cars... but regardless... it’s a meaningless number without knowing how much is left and what the burn rate is.
I was meaning if its a con then he has enough to cover his mortgage. But since I believe they are trying to make the game who knows how much is left.
It may not have started out as such, but at this point, I believe it has failed and is now just a front and a scam to pay back the mortgage that Caspian took out on his house.
I was answering this part of a post. I just didn't quote it, I assumed everyone who was reading the thread would have gathered that due to the mortgage reference.
My bad
You have stumbled into one of the biggest issues with CoE (and most Crowdfunded games). While they proudly proclaim how much they raise, There is an utter lack of visibility to how much is left or how much is spent each month. All we know is that they have raised about 50% more money than Caspien said he would need to get to full release and that they laid off team members in Dec 2017. They could have millions in the bank. They could have next to nothing. We don’t even know what the burn rate is.
People say you are not investors but are donating to the cause. OK... but at least here in the US, charities are required to show donors their financial statement including salaries of key employees.
So it exists in this weird place as a for profit taking public donations with little to no accountability. But this is a bit far down the rabbit hole related to Ducal land selection delays. Just wouldn’t want to be accused of not giving a detailed response...
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People say you are not investors but are donating to the cause. OK... but at least here in the US, charities are required to show donors their financial statement including salaries of key employees.
Now that is something that I could support. It would not be financially onerous to have an auditor issue a certificate confirming cash balances. That would simply require the auditor having sight of their bank account. A small firm would do that for a reasonably low fee.
Confirming director salaries might be more tricky because without doing a full audit you can never have reasonable assurance they aren't funneling personnel expenses through loan accounts etc. That said, even a full audit for something like CoE should cost you <£10,000 per year.
I actually remember that MO had publicly available financial statements because they were listed on some stock exchange.
People say you are not investors but are donating to the cause. OK... but at least here in the US, charities are required to show donors their financial statement including salaries of key employees.
Now that is something that I could support. It would not be financially onerous to have an auditor issue a certificate confirming cash balances. That would simply require the auditor having sight of their bank account. A small firm would do that for a reasonably low fee.
Confirming director salaries might be more tricky because without doing a full audit you can never have reasonable assurance they aren't funneling personnel expenses through loan accounts etc. That said, even a full audit for something like CoE should cost you <£10,000 per year.
I actually remember that MO had publicly available financial statements because they were listed on some stock exchange.
But will anyone actually ask that of Caspien?
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You only pay tax if you make a taxable profit. Firstly, do the funds that they raise qualify as revenue and secondly, do they raise more revenue than tax deductible expenses?
I imagine that their revenue is considered to be deferred, basically a prepayment by the customer so it isn't taxable until the company delivers their product or more specifically over the period that the customer has access to it.
So based on that... no, they are not paying tax other the payroll taxes deducted from their payslips.
You only pay tax if you make a taxable profit. Firstly, do the funds that they raise qualify as revenue and secondly, do they raise more revenue than tax deductible expenses?
I imagine that their revenue is considered to be deferred, basically a prepayment by the customer so it isn't taxable until the company delivers their product or more specifically over the period that the customer has access to it.
So based on that... no, they are not paying tax other the payroll taxes deducted from their payslips.
It's likely that they need to pay VAT for their sales to Europe.
You only pay tax if you make a taxable profit. Firstly, do the funds that they raise qualify as revenue and secondly, do they raise more revenue than tax deductible expenses?
I imagine that their revenue is considered to be deferred, basically a prepayment by the customer so it isn't taxable until the company delivers their product or more specifically over the period that the customer has access to it.
So based on that... no, they are not paying tax other the payroll taxes deducted from their payslips.
Interesting conundrum. IMHO if they classify it as a donation or gift they would need to report it the year it was received. If they classify it as a prepayment then maybe they do not have to report it until later, BUT that would also seem to trigger much more in the way of consumer protections...
Mortal Online also had a donation mechanism setup and they reported it as income in the year received.
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Screeps does the always online thing. And is interesting for it.
Though the tech for it, is literally business changing. As in bug hunting by the devs and tuning by them have literally caused rewrites and changes to Node.js.
Always online characters don't really bother me in themselves, rather can the player reasonably protect them and their assets from being completely looted or destroyed while the player is away.
How does Screeps deal with this concern?
In EVE and most other games the answer is yes, but not sure in COEs case if this will be true.
Relying on player or NPCs to keep everything safe is something I've never seen work successfully, only by intentional developer design can such assurance be given.
The attacker does have strong advantages in picking targets, and have their attack force built already.
Though the defenders have some insanely strong options to choose from. The simplest are walls that can be built "very high" (when I abandoned one of my colonies but stayed subbed they built to the extent where they got to 40 million hit points). Next up are towers where depending on the room level you get 1 to 3 of them, relatively strong, have an easy API, and can solo many weak attacks with good placement. And another easy one is the ability to just say "no" and activate protection status of individual rooms (because you have a pool of uses and each room has its own cool down, making it more of a panic mode).
Next for advanced defences the defenders have the ability to make their own forces. Depending on the distance the attacker traveled they could have spent halve of their life span. Likewise at even mid levels they'll have access to market terminals for buying unit buffs.
And lastly if the attacker fails, they'll be in world for a counter attack. If if they succeed they'll still be there for allies or the future.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Comments
----
I see your point but these discussion are always tricky. When I say x, I have conditions y and z also in mind but you will naturally interpret it differently. I confess to find it hard to describe what I mean exactly.
You have a character and that character has many children. Only some of those children are activated with a subscription. All those children are placed into the various roles, simply to prevent them starving. The activated ones are in the roles you want to actually perform. Naturally, those would be the merchants, craftsman, warriors, nobles etc. So mundane roles for the most part would be fulfilled by OPCs that belong to your account and which you can activate in the future but right now is a de facto NPC.
In the case of an OPC guard, that player could use it as a PvP character. I assume travel to be time consuming. A player that wants a lot of PvP action would have several PvP characters in different locations. He would assume control of the one where the fighting is going on.
I need to stress that at no point should the intention be for players to perform mundane activities. So while the OPC is a guard the player does not actually guard. He logs onto that character to PvP or make major character management decisions, i.e. the interesting stuff. The actual "guard" activities happens in his absence and in many other instances the OPC is an NPC interface or simply adding to the RPG atmosphere. You can route traditional RPG dialogue through these OPCs. Players must always be involved in either skilled actions or management.
I would rather ask that you think of what you could do with a system based on OPCs, rather than simply changing that one aspect of existing designs. You pretty much have to revisit everything. I admit that it is hard to stipulate enough of the rest to make discussion easy!
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I am saying there is npc guards in town just like in traditional games.
I only mentioned opc in the context that they aren't going to stand their being killed.
PS
I have no chip on my shoulder, those days are long gone, I am responding perfectly in line with what you are talking about.
Some day we hopefully won’t be talking hypotheticals. Speaking of which is the last official word that release is this year?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Though the tech for it, is literally business changing. As in bug hunting by the devs and tuning by them have literally caused rewrites and changes to Node.js.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Although he hasn't had chance for a while
How does Screeps deal with this concern?
In EVE and most other games the answer is yes, but not sure in COEs case if this will be true.
Relying on player or NPCs to keep everything safe is something I've never seen work successfully, only by intentional developer design can such assurance be given.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As for Coe it's supposed to be quite hard to destroy structures.
Ie you can't do it with a sword.
And for valuables they are supposed to be putting in things like false doors etc for creating safe spots.
I say supposed because we won't know until its done
There is no game, and looking at all the history of this project, is there anyone who actually believes there ever will be? Or that even if there is some miracle and some title called COE is released, that it will have any resemblance to anything that has been discussed so far?
It may not have started out as such, but at this point, I believe it has failed and is now just a front and a scam to pay back the mortgage that Caspian took out on his house.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Regardless, I still root for the underdog...while of course not committing any of my own money.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't think it's a scam, will it succeed, I hope so but I'm no longer even 50% certain
Edit- Ahh I see... you are referencing the $6.1M raised through donations. Well, I hope he’s not using that money to pay his mortgage or buy new cars... but regardless... it’s a meaningless number without knowing how much is left and what the burn rate is.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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But since I believe they are trying to make the game who knows how much is left.
I was answering this part of a post. I just didn't quote it, I assumed everyone who was reading the thread would have gathered that due to the mortgage reference.
My bad
People say you are not investors but are donating to the cause. OK... but at least here in the US, charities are required to show donors their financial statement including salaries of key employees.
So it exists in this weird place as a for profit taking public donations with little to no accountability. But this is a bit far down the rabbit hole related to Ducal land selection delays. Just wouldn’t want to be accused of not giving a detailed response...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Confirming director salaries might be more tricky because without doing a full audit you can never have reasonable assurance they aren't funneling personnel expenses through loan accounts etc. That said, even a full audit for something like CoE should cost you <£10,000 per year.
I actually remember that MO had publicly available financial statements because they were listed on some stock exchange.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I imagine that their revenue is considered to be deferred, basically a prepayment by the customer so it isn't taxable until the company delivers their product or more specifically over the period that the customer has access to it.
So based on that... no, they are not paying tax other the payroll taxes deducted from their payslips.
Mortal Online also had a donation mechanism setup and they reported it as income in the year received.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The attacker does have strong advantages in picking targets, and have their attack force built already.
Though the defenders have some insanely strong options to choose from. The simplest are walls that can be built "very high" (when I abandoned one of my colonies but stayed subbed they built to the extent where they got to 40 million hit points). Next up are towers where depending on the room level you get 1 to 3 of them, relatively strong, have an easy API, and can solo many weak attacks with good placement. And another easy one is the ability to just say "no" and activate protection status of individual rooms (because you have a pool of uses and each room has its own cool down, making it more of a panic mode).
Next for advanced defences the defenders have the ability to make their own forces. Depending on the distance the attacker traveled they could have spent halve of their life span. Likewise at even mid levels they'll have access to market terminals for buying unit buffs.
And lastly if the attacker fails, they'll be in world for a counter attack. If if they succeed they'll still be there for allies or the future.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."